Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game


Pathfinder Society


Starfinder


Starfinder Society

Bard Masterpieces and Bardic Performance


Rules Questions

601 to 650 of 811 << first < prev | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | next > last >>

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Horselord wrote:

Also, the idea of leaving the interpretation of the mechanics to the GM just doesn't work in PFS - characters either get swapped out with a disagreeable GM, or players look at the option as too subjective to be worth playing. Vague rules don't fly in PFS.

I agree wholeheartedly however once it gets an FAQ then your probably stuck that way. So do you want a rushed FAQ that makes Masterpieces effectively useless instead of table variation? Hell there are things that have sat on the FAQ for years that we all assumed were never getting an official ruling. And yes sadly the push the forums give with every ruling, (even ones that are cut and dry now turn into people trying to prove the devs wrong.) makes it so that instead of just writing a one sentence FAQ they need a paragraph triple checked and approved by deacons of Asmodeaus just to avoid the majority of that crap.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Sahansral wrote:
Horselord wrote:
People saying Masterpieces are the domain of just the bard are wrong. Any class that gains bardic performance can access them by spending a feat for each one.

Quote from PFSRD:

"Prerequisites: Like feats, masterpieces have prerequisites that a bard must meet in order to learn them. Only bards may learn masterpieces."

Skalds also qualify.

ACG wrote:
A raging song counts as the bard's bardic performance special ability for any effect that affects bardic performances. A skald may learn bard masterpieces.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

My problem is not that the FAQ has gone this long without being addressed, that is frustrating and disappointing but not a HUGE issue, my problem is that they keep adding to a "broken" feature.

If no one knows how exactly it operates then you should stop making it until it is solved.

It is a massive perception issue. Your company only comes off as incompetent when you keep doing this.

You have a problem, you acknowledge the problem., you say since there are so many masterpieces that work differently it is a complicated problem, and you continue to put out new masterpieces before addressing the problem. The only thing your customer sees is incompetence at best and great at worst.

It's almost like making a car that uses and engine that has a 95% failure rate within 10 miles of use. When it is brought to the attention of the company they acknowledge the problem, say they will address the problem and continue to make more cars using the same engine.

People buy the new cars thinking that the problem has been solved only to discover that no, no it has not. The customers then bring the issue up again with the company, and the company again responds with an acknowledgement of the problem and promise of a fix. They also say that since they have more cars on the road now then when the problem was first brought to their attention, the fix will be more complex.

The customers accept it, but then see the company continue to make and sell more cars with the same problem.

It just does not help your image.

*Edit* I love playing Bards. I want to look at using the masterpieces, but until this gets answered, I am not going to even bother touching them.


Andarion wrote:

My problem is not that the FAQ has gone this long without being addressed, that is frustrating and disappointing but not a HUGE issue, my problem is that they keep adding to a "broken" feature.

If no one knows how exactly it operates then you should stop making it until it is solved.

It is a massive perception issue. Your company only comes off as incompetent when you keep doing this.

You have a problem, you acknowledge the problem., you say since there are so many masterpieces that work differently it is a complicated problem, and you continue to put out new masterpieces before addressing the problem. The only thing your customer sees is incompetence at best and great at worst.

It's almost like making a car that uses and engine that has a 95% failure rate within 10 miles of use. When it is brought to the attention of the company they acknowledge the problem, say they will address the problem and continue to make more cars using the same engine.

People buy the new cars thinking that the problem has been solved only to discover that no, no it has not. The customers then bring the issue up again with the company, and the company again responds with an acknowledgement of the problem and promise of a fix. They also say that since they have more cars on the road now then when the problem was first brought to their attention, the fix will be more complex.

The customers accept it, but then see the company continue to make and sell more cars with the same problem.

It just does not help your image.

I can see your point but we aren't a 95% failure rate in fact maybe .95% just look at this thread a lot of people "knew" how it worked before this thread brought to their attention that there were other interpretations. Their games ran just fine with no issues combining the 2 and there are plenty of people out there who probably still don't know there is an issue. I'm sure there are even PFS games that are unaware that a conflict exist. Could they put a moratorium on Masterpieces and Sagas in the meantime, sure but keep in mind that not every book gets personally checked by even the PDT for errors and rules issues. And even the ones that do still need correcting or clarifying from time to time. Maybe the guy who approves new masterpieces is oblivious to the plight of this thread, I doubt it but who knows. What we do know is they are still making them, we just don't know why. And to speculate that its because they don't care is not helping anything.


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gisher wrote:
Sahansral wrote:
Horselord wrote:
People saying Masterpieces are the domain of just the bard are wrong. Any class that gains bardic performance can access them by spending a feat for each one.

Quote from PFSRD:

"Prerequisites: Like feats, masterpieces have prerequisites that a bard must meet in order to learn them. Only bards may learn masterpieces."

Skalds also qualify.

ACG wrote:
A raging song counts as the bard's bardic performance special ability for any effect that affects bardic performances. A skald may learn bard masterpieces.

Oh, don't start that! Because now we have Sagas and ONLY Skalds can do those....which, IMO, means the Masterpiece feature needs to go back to being Bard specific only.


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Andarion wrote:

My problem is not that the FAQ has gone this long without being addressed, that is frustrating and disappointing but not a HUGE issue, my problem is that they keep adding to a "broken" feature.

If no one knows how exactly it operates then you should stop making it until it is solved.

It is a massive perception issue. Your company only comes off as incompetent when you keep doing this.

You have a problem, you acknowledge the problem., you say since there are so many masterpieces that work differently it is a complicated problem, and you continue to put out new masterpieces before addressing the problem. The only thing your customer sees is incompetence at best and great at worst.

*Edit* I love playing Bards. I want to look at using the masterpieces, but until this gets answered, I am not going to even bother touching them.

Let's not toss the entire feature simply because they won't 'fix' it. Masterpieces are one of the best ways to customize a Bard character, IMO. So, let's not entirely eliminate it--especially if you are NOT playing PFS.


Fourshadow wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Sahansral wrote:
Horselord wrote:
People saying Masterpieces are the domain of just the bard are wrong. Any class that gains bardic performance can access them by spending a feat for each one.

Quote from PFSRD:

"Prerequisites: Like feats, masterpieces have prerequisites that a bard must meet in order to learn them. Only bards may learn masterpieces."

Skalds also qualify.

ACG wrote:
A raging song counts as the bard's bardic performance special ability for any effect that affects bardic performances. A skald may learn bard masterpieces.
Oh, don't start that! Because now we have Sagas and ONLY Skalds can do those....which, IMO, means the Masterpiece feature needs to go back to being Bard specific only.

Bard can do those as well

PFSRD wrote:
Sagas Sagas are specialized applications of a skald’s raging song ability, functioning much like bardic masterpieces but are available only to skalds. Sagas are never purely artistic constructs; they are designed to preserve lore or commemorate historical figures, and are usually based in fact. Sagas therefore require ranks in Knowledge (history) as a prerequisite, as well. Bards can learn sagas, using their bardic performance ability instead of raging song.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

The bit about "available only to skalds" earlier in the paragraph has caused some confusion. ^_^


Kalindlara wrote:
The bit about "available only to skalds" earlier in the paragraph has caused some confusion. ^_^

I know we need to stop using that language especially for things that are limited to class features already lol.


Is there any class feature still restricted to a single class anyway?


VRMH wrote:
Is there any class feature still restricted to a single class anyway?

Sure. Many of the hybrids get things no other do.

Don't think anyone gets spell kenning otherwise?

Not that I'd complain. Little blending is fun.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Divine Grace?


We're still a few FAQs short of 400.


This thread could do with another bump. Please FAQ the OP, if you haven't done so already.


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And in about one month, it will be 2 years old. I have just about given up on an official ruling. If there is one after all this time, I am not certain I will like it. To rule they cannot be run at the same time as a Bardic Performance (example: Inspiring Courage while preparing the Dumbshow of Gorroc to blast some plant-beings) is nerfing the very mechanic that makes it easiest to customize your Bard. Bardic Performance is a finite resource. If a Bard wants to burn through their daily Performance in 10 rounds or so, let them! At least they will be having fun while they are at it.
I know, I have argued this many times before. It is just so frustrating to see the most refreshing mechanic to customize Bards in this game get made irrelevant.


Hey cross your fingers last FAQ Tuesday answered an old thread maybe today will be the day.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Just need one more to 400...

The Exchange

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I don't think there is an option to retract the request so I guess I'll just say it; I don't want a FAQ answer for this anymore. My opinion on Paizo development has changed since 2 years ago and I won't like the result they will produce so it is best for everyone if they just continue not to answer this.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Gonna disagree on that.

Also woot! 400 FAQs!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

400!!

And 2 years!

And bards!

I will always want support for my most favourite (and bestest) of classes. So.. yup keep hitting that FAQ button. I'd rather just a straight up "some songs will have to change but here ya go" situation then not getting an answer at all.

If the recent FAQ amendment (clarification?) On large creatures and special armour taught me anything it's that the company listens to customers and responds, even if it's not always a response that makes everyone happy.

But bards make everyone happy.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Ragoz wrote:

I don't want a FAQ answer for this anymore.

I won't like the result they will produce so it is best

Is that "I like using things in unintended ways"?


James Risner wrote:
Ragoz wrote:

I don't want a FAQ answer for this anymore.

I won't like the result they will produce so it is best

Is that "I like using things in unintended ways"?

Since a few FAQ are FAQ-rratas, the "unintended way" is a bit misleading.

The Exchange

James Risner wrote:
Ragoz wrote:

I don't want a FAQ answer for this anymore.

I won't like the result they will produce so it is best

Is that "I like using things in unintended ways"?

No.

Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Since a few FAQ are FAQ-rratas, the "unintended way" is a bit misleading.

Yep.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
James Risner wrote:
Ragoz wrote:

I don't want a FAQ answer for this anymore.

I won't like the result they will produce so it is best

Is that "I like using things in unintended ways"?

The issue is, and Jason has said this too, that their view of the rules of the game has changed.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Sorry about the muddled ruling here folks. With the number of books, FAQs, updates, and other rulings that we've made over the years, it has become easy for us to contradict ourselves, especially when some of our philosophy on those rules have changed over the years. We endeavor to have a tight ship on these things, but mistakes happen.

Hope we didn't cause too much heartburn...

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

So it's possible that originally made that arrows from a +3 bow passes DR but now they changed their mind and it doesn't.

it's possible that mithral was added after multiplication originally, but now they changed their mind and it's before.
It's possible that gauntlets worked differently originally than they do now when we finally get clarification.

So it could be that these originally were meant to be okay to be done at the same time, but now that their view of the game has changed they don't want that any more.

So unintended now might have been intended before. And people seem not all that fond of their current view of things, and thus know that any official ruling now won't be to their liking. But can hope that if the answer waits another few years that maybe the view will shift again and then the answer will please them.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

<---- casts his annual Resurrection spell. This thread permanently gains -1 level.

Still very interested in this. VERY. :) please throw us a bone... or a song? I can sing inspire competence if it helps? Even a private message of "we are intentionally not answering this because you wont like the answer and we want to keep selling books" will at least give me enough of an answer to know ;)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

*offers marshmallows for the fire*

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The other pertinent point is that they keep coming out with more and more Masterpieces that almost *beg* to be used as the same time as a Performance.

Unless that's intentional.

At which point parties better start working on all being bards, because all the options need to be used...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

maybe if I hit FAQ on like every single one of the 600+ posts on this thread? XD

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Thelemonache, that would be a violation of “break other rules”. You know, the unspecified one for doing xyz.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Sometimes I like to picture the developers saying "Hey let's do some FAQ answers!" Then seeing this at the top of the pile and getting totally disheartened.

This is truly the divorce papers in need of signing of FAQs


Its a shame I remember seeing this post when I tried to find the answer for my first pathfinder character. Had just joined a ROTRL game and wasn't sure how masterpieces worked and my DM just gave an odd interpretation and said he would change if this got answered. Almost 2 years and now were in book 6 but I still check every now and then hoping.


James Risner wrote:
Thelemonache, that would be a violation of “break other rules”. You know, the unspecified one for doing xyz.

That's why i said "maybe"! :D

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Milozilla wrote:
Its a shame I remember seeing this post when I tried to find the answer for my first pathfinder character. Had just joined a ROTRL game and wasn't sure how masterpieces worked and my DM just gave an odd interpretation and said he would change if this got answered. Almost 2 years and now were in book 6 but I still check every now and then hoping.

The character I was curious about is at one scenario short of Seeker status in PFS, was 3rd level-ish when initially posted here. Hadn't picked up any of the later Masterpieces after Triple Time because didn't want to sink a Feat into a thing that could get overturned 'any given day'.


I took a look again yesterday, and i still cant see any overpowered combinations. The masterpieces usually function like overly restrictive spells, like I need to do more work that a spell to pull them off (either by spending multiple rounds of actions, or investing in skills that do little else compared to other skills etc). So it wouldn't make sense to me to say they cant be used as if they were just spells being cast overtop of bard songs. I mean.... they even take away spell slots hehe


I don't think the concern is power creep, or at least if it was I'd be quite surprised. E.g if you stack all the damage masterpieces on a sound striker bard you don't do particularly amazing damage. The summons ones don't seem op either.

My guess is there are two kinds of masterpieces, those that are essentially spells and those that are new types of performance. Making everything consistent including interactions with feats will simply take up more space than they're willing to devote to a FAQ answer.


FangDragon wrote:
Making everything consistent including interactions with feats will simply take up more space than they're willing to devote to a FAQ answer.

I can still hope can't I? :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
thelemonache wrote:
I can still hope can't I? :)

If we didn't have hope, we wouldn't bother with this thread.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think at this point it's up to the community to build a list of masterpieces categorized in two camps: 1) spell-like ability activated with a bardic rounds cost (i.e. fire and forget types, regardless of ongoing duration or not), and 2) new application of bardic music (i.e. the classic round to round maintenance scheme)

That would be more useful than the current wait and complain cycle...

Grand Lodge

7 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

Instead of a wait and complain cycle, I was thinking of a wait and filk cycle. You know, keep the dream alive with the power of music. Because we're bards!

♫ There was a time when rules were kind
Masterpieces soared aloft
Their magic inviting
There was a time when songs combined
Our world was drenched in song
And the song was exciting
There was a time

Then it all went wrong

I dreamed a dream in time gone by
When hope was high
Masterpieces worth having
I dreamed that bardic rounds would fly by
I dreamed the PDT would be forgiving
Then I was young and a bit naiive
Our choral works were made unchastened
Our lutes and voices played
No song unsung
No wine untasted

Then the changes came one night
To steal the bardic thunder
They questioned masterpiece's part
"Are all performances the same?"
Now we check the flowing tide
Which way will it go, I wonder?
Will the songs go side by side?
Or will they part from once they came?
And I still dream they'll come to me
Our songs will live the years together
But this thread has no end I see
Oh well... We'll wait it out together ♫

Source: Les Miserables - I Dreamed A Dream Lyrics


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Hmm wrote:

Instead of a wait and complain cycle, I was thinking of a wait and filk cycle. You know, keep the dream alive with the power of music. Because we're bards!

♫ There was a time when rules were kind
Masterpieces soared aloft
Their magic inviting
There was a time when songs combined
Our world was drenched in song
And the song was exciting
There was a time

Then it all went wrong

I dreamed a dream in time gone by
When hope was high
Masterpieces worth having
I dreamed that bardic rounds would fly by
I dreamed the PDT would be forgiving
Then I was young and a bit naiive
Our choral works were made unchastened
Our lutes and voices played
No song unsung
No wine untasted

Then the changes came one night
To steal the bardic thunder
They questioned masterpiece's part
"Are all performances the same?"
Now we check the flowing tide
Which way will it go, I wonder?
Will the songs go side by side?
Or will they part from once they came?
And I still dream they'll come to me
Our songs will live the years together
But this thread has no end I see
Oh well... We'll wait it out together ♫

Source: Les Miserables - I Dreamed A Dream Lyrics

I officially vote that they write a masterpiece in your honor :)


I've no talent for filking. I can, however, bump.


Bump again.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Well, if we're already on the Les Mis train...

Who is this bard?
What sort of devil is he?
To choose mechanical traps
And Paizo let him go free?

It was their hour at last
To put a seal on his fate
Whip out the FAQs - Masterpieces, off the slate!
All it would take
Was a hard-fought RAW strife
Errata was theirs
And they gave him back his life!

Damned if I live in the debt of JJ!
Damned if I yield at the end of the chase!
I am the RAW and the RAW is not mocked
I'll spit their intentions right back in his face
There is only the text that we share
Stating "either Stone Face, or Inspire!"

And my thoughts fly apart
Can this bard be believed?
Will peacocks be accepted?
Will teamwork feats be received?

And must I now begin to doubt,
Who never doubted, all these years?
I'm set in stone, and yet I'm trembling
The PDT I have known, is lost in action
Is the bard from heaven, or from hell?
And do they know?
By granting m'pieces life today
This FAQ might kill me, even so?

I am reaching, but I fall
And the parts are black and cold
As I stare into the void
Of a clash that cannot hold
I'll escape now, from that world
From the world of "RAW is LAW"
But there's nowhere I can turn
There is no way to go on!

Source: Les Miserables - Javert's Suicide

*cue dramatic FAQ announcement*


Live!Live Again! Keep the hope Alive!

AKA: Bump


Hope springs eternal.

Silver Crusade

How is this still not answered when 415 people marked this as FAQ??

It's a simple question, right? Either you can use 'm at the same time, or you can't. Nothing hard about it...?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Viondar wrote:

How is this still not answered when 415 people marked this as FAQ??

It's a simple question, right? Either you can use 'm at the same time, or you can't. Nothing hard about it...?

No...

Noooooooooooo...

... No.


"And then he's all, hey it's a simple question right?"

"No! No he didn't!"

"Swear to Gozreh he did!"

"Oh man. Priceless!"

And then they told other great stories and picked up some women at the tavern.

BECAUSE BARDS.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Talonhawke wrote:
So do you want a rushed FAQ

Do you really want to pull the 'don't rush it' card when the OP is more than two years old?

The Exchange

Viondar wrote:

How is this still not answered when 415 people marked this as FAQ??

It's a simple question, right? Either you can use 'm at the same time, or you can't. Nothing hard about it...?

Sphere Singer PrC: she has a bardic effect that lets her sprout butterfly wings that can propel her into space. If she wants. It lasts hours. It's a bardic effect that she pays with her 'rounds per day scheme'

You pay up front, then you're good for hours.

Makes zero sense that she shouldn't be able to inspire courage AFTER she sprouts the magnificent, inspiring wings that make her look like DESNA.

This is not even a masterpiece. It's a bardic effect.

Simple? no.

GM territory? I'm fine with that.

601 to 650 of 811 << first < prev | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Bard Masterpieces and Bardic Performance All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002-2017 Paizo Inc.® | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours, Monday through Friday, 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time.

Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, Starfinder, the Starfinder logo, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Legends, Pathfinder Online, Starfinder Adventure Path, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.