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FAQ REQUEST - Bard Masterpieces and Bardic Performance


Rules Questions

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2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
VRMH wrote:
An official answer would be nice.

Indeed. However, it appears to be low in priority as we are into the 2nd year of waiting for an answer. Sigh.


Fourshadow wrote:
VRMH wrote:
An official answer would be nice.
Indeed. However, it appears to be low in priority as we are into the 2nd year of waiting for an answer. Sigh.

It does make the whole FAQ request system seem pretty useless. If 378 requests over nearly wo years doesn't merit a response, then what's the point?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Sad, isn't it? Although the many suggestions in this thread do seem to more than adequately deal with any RAW shortcomings.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gisher wrote:
Fourshadow wrote:
VRMH wrote:
An official answer would be nice.
Indeed. However, it appears to be low in priority as we are into the 2nd year of waiting for an answer. Sigh.
It does make the whole FAQ request system seem pretty useless. If 378 requests over nearly wo years doesn't merit a response, then what's the point?

The point is that for figuring out which FAQ to answer the subtract votes for how hard it is to answer. So having 378 but being so hard that it subtracts 400 puts it in at under 0 FAQs ;)

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

They've also very, very heavily hinted that this would require an entire blog post possibly going over most if not all Masterpieces. So that probably takes a little bit more setup than a normal FAQ Friday.


It's quite possible that if they do the route I brought up near the beginning and others have echoed (that being the ones requiring an upfront cost would continue) they simply don't want to hear a constant barrage of "well now that they needed these they are useless" which... let's be honest is going to happen.

Devs just need to realize some people are going to complain regardless and make an official stand.


I am surprised they have not addressed this yet (it has the highest number of FAQs ever so far, I think), for the longest period as well (nearly two years). Considering how often it must come up in PFS, with obvious table variations, you think that even if the solution required an entire blog post, they would have taken care of this issue already.

To compound on this issue, every now and then they release more new bardic masterpieces. That is only going to add more to the list of work required if the solution is drastic enough to warrant significant rewriting of affected bardic masterpieces. The longer they wait to address it, the more work they have to do.

Honestly, I strongly suspect that it will never get resolved officially, because it seems like they have increased their workload. Setting aside the required time for the entire PDT to sit down and examine all of their bardic masterpieces is probably a waste of their work hours if they can instead focus on more putting more books out.

I am genuinely impressed that they produce as much output (the quality is another subject for another day) as they do despite the small number of actual employees (not counting contracted artists and similar contractors). Plus, some of their staff have their own 3rd party business or do independent work as well. That does not even take into account any concerns with achieving a desired work-life balance and ensuring a healthy workplace.

That leaves them with minimal time available to address the FAQs so they focus on smaller issues instead.

Oh well, that seems like it is their business strategy. *shrugs*

CB

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Well FAQs don't really make them any money, whereas new content does. So yeah they're gonna focus on that and FAQs are nice additions.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Also have a feeling that it's a complicated enough issue that they're worried about Jingasa^3 backlash if it doesn't hit enough points for folks...


The backlash is always going to be an issue, but the longer they wait, the worst it is likely going to be.

To be fair, they kind of hit their own toes with how poorly they worded/designed bardic masterpieces in the first place, and then again with subsequent bardic masterpieces that kind of made it a bit more vague/harder to figure out exactly how bardic masterpieces in general should work.

I have always wondered if they have an intranet for their employees to access to review hot topics for game design or a means to quickly cross-reference previous published materials (such as feats, class abilities, archetypes, etc.) to avoid repetition or mix-ups in developing new materials? I mean, sure, that's the point of the PRD but it doesn't take into account player companions, adventure paths, modules, or even the comics.

CB

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The answer seems simple: Remove the clause that states that masterpieces count as bardic performances and/or add a clause that allows them to be used in conjunction with normal bardic performances.

From my experience that's the way most people run them. Are there any edge cases to that ruling that makes masterpieces crazy broken?

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Feral wrote:

The answer seems simple: Remove the clause that states that masterpieces count as bardic performances and/or add a clause that allows them to be used in conjunction with normal bardic performances.

From my experience that's the way most people run them. Are there any edge cases to that ruling that makes masterpieces crazy broken?

My experience is limited, but I haven't seen any abuse, and it's at the cost of either a feat or a spell slot, so the power level should be considered at about that effectiveness, I would imagine?


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If any such cases existed, a negative ruling would be the way to go.

On the other hand, if there are any masterpieces that are made utterly useless by not being allowed to continue during a bardic performance, a positive ruling would be the way to go.

If both cases exist, then a more nuanced ruling would be required. I am assuming that the question is complicated enough to make a simple answer impossible, but I do not have enough experience with bards to identify any problem cases.

Liberty's Edge

Well I understand the apprehension to make a ruling if there's a danger of introducing broken content. The game is full of useless/bad/generally underpowered player options. Pushing a whole suite of player options into that category is disappointing but life ultimately goes on.

On the other hand, broken options create a broken experience - especially in an environment where the GM isn't empowered to rein things in when necessary (like PFS).


Canadian Bakka wrote:

I am surprised they have not addressed this yet (it has the highest number of FAQs ever so far, I think), for the longest period as well (nearly two years).

...

This thread does have a lot of FAQ requests, but it isn't even close to the highest number ever.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Ah, so we'ze gonna need 200 more clicks then at the very least.


Whoa, 500+ FAQ clicks? That's kind of scary, but it does make sense given the greater impact that particular nest of problems had. It affected more than just a single class. Ergo, significantly greater urgency to resolve that FAQ. *nods nods*

CB


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gisher wrote:


This thread does have a lot of FAQ requests, but it isn't even close to the highest number ever.

Weird, I thought that was going to be a question about a succubus in a grapple.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Gisher wrote:


This thread does have a lot of FAQ requests, but it isn't even close to the highest number ever.
Weird, I thought that was going to be a question about a succubus in a grapple.

What's there to question? Grapple the succubus.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rysky wrote:
Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Gisher wrote:


This thread does have a lot of FAQ requests, but it isn't even close to the highest number ever.
Weird, I thought that was going to be a question about a succubus in a grapple.
What's there to question? Grapple the succubus.

Do it right, and everyone wins.


Ideally through astral projection as a safety precaution. You get all of the fun and none of the negative side-effects. ;P

CB


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Feral wrote:

The answer seems simple: Remove the clause that states that masterpieces count as bardic performances and/or add a clause that allows them to be used in conjunction with normal bardic performances.

From my experience that's the way most people run them. Are there any edge cases to that ruling that makes masterpieces crazy broken?

My experience is limited, but I haven't seen any abuse, and it's at the cost of either a feat or a spell slot, so the power level should be considered at about that effectiveness, I would imagine?

Back to the FAQ please...

The Bold: This would be a rather simple fix!

The Italicized: Because there is no real abuse with Bardic performance as a finite source.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Paizo, please don't answer this one. We like our super long FAQ thread movement.
  • Sound Striker had 141 FAQ clicks, 809 posts, and took 526 days to answer.
    The thread had heated discussions and PDT early involvement stating the two main interpretations were either too weak or too strong then soliciting resolutions.
  • Damage Dice Increases had 565 FAQ clicks, 553 posts, and took 296 days to answer.
    The thread wasn't nearly as heated, but also had PDT early involvement saying the answer would be complicated. The community collaberated a "formula" or sorts that was used to answer.

So I think work like Rory's write up should be polished and collaborated to help answer this question.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Gisher wrote:
Fourshadow wrote:
VRMH wrote:
An official answer would be nice.
appears to be low in priority as we are into the 2nd year
FAQ request system seem pretty useless.

379 FAQ clicks, 573 posts, and 602 days and they absolutely have been involved and not forgotten.

This apparently can't be answered without answering some underlying questions regarding Bardic Performaces. I suspect things like "can you activate more than one a turn" and similar debated questions we have today.

Canadian Bakka wrote:
The backlash is always going to be an issue, but the longer they wait, the worst it is likely going to be.

Time lowers the backlash as does PDT involvement. This thread has both, so I think the answer will be clean, well reasoned, and have limited backlash.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Canadian Bakka wrote:
To compound on this issue, every now and then they release more new bardic masterpieces. That is only going to add more to the list of work required if the solution is drastic enough to warrant significant rewriting of affected bardic masterpieces. The longer they wait to address it, the more work they have to do.

To compound the compounding, they have released several prestige classes lately that add new bardic performances that cost x rounds to activate and last for a while after that (i.e. I'm looking at you, butterfly wings that act like overland flight for the rest of the day Desna-themed bard PrC...) :)

I strongly doubt that their intent for that PrC was to have the bards unable to inspire their fellow party members AFTER they have sprouted their magnificent butterfly wings! :)

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