Turin the Mad |
I think he is making "Screw the rules, I have money" joke. You know, implying that rich people bybass the rules.
Ah hah! *40-watt bulb of brilliance lights up*
Well, that is one of the two Golden Rules. :)
Be glad the Chosen Child of Po-Li does not have Rich Parents resulting in a character that is a Child of Two Peoples...
Ravingdork |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The amusing part of beginning play with nasty combat-trained animals is the most important: feeding them. 13 bison eat a whole lot of animal feed... I'm not so sure I want to take care of feeding a Large or Huge carnivore at 1st level. That gets expensive real fast.
Why do you think my animal handler is adventuring in the first place? Without more money for feed, his poor fluffy heard will starve! ;P
Turin the Mad |
Turin the Mad wrote:Why do you think my animal handler is adventuring in the first place? Without more money for feed, his poor fluffy heard will starve! ;PThe amusing part of beginning play with nasty combat-trained animals is the most important: feeding them. 13 bison eat a whole lot of animal feed... I'm not so sure I want to take care of feeding a Large or Huge carnivore at 1st level. That gets expensive real fast.
^_____^
I did find the concept of what was it, three thousand housecats, VERY entertaining. "Die all you Commoner scum, DIE!!" (The cats can eat the remains.)
alexd1976 |
Ravingdork wrote:Turin the Mad wrote:Why do you think my animal handler is adventuring in the first place? Without more money for feed, his poor fluffy heard will starve! ;PThe amusing part of beginning play with nasty combat-trained animals is the most important: feeding them. 13 bison eat a whole lot of animal feed... I'm not so sure I want to take care of feeding a Large or Huge carnivore at 1st level. That gets expensive real fast.
^_____^
I did find the concept of what was it, three thousand housecats, VERY entertaining. "Die all you Commoner scum, DIE!!" (The cats can eat the remains.)
My cat would fit in well with that pack of crazy critters. He bites my ankles if I don't feed him when he demands it.
ryric RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |
If I had a player retrain away Rich parents, I wouldn't require the PC to pay back the money...but their parents would no longer be rich, and they might ask for the money back to help in their time of need. The PC is of course free to ignore or deny the request, but that would have interesting roleplaying repercussions.
"Hey junior, you know that money we lent you when you started this adventuring thing?"
"I thought that money was a gift, dad?"
"Whatever. Anyway, your uncle made some poor investment decisions and we're a little short of being able to pay all the staff this month. Now that you're a successful, established adventurer, could you help us out?"
"I don't have anything extra right now..."
"Really? Because we can get back on our feet for less money than you spent on that fancy cloak..."
alexd1976 |
If I had a player retrain away Rich parents, I wouldn't require the PC to pay back the money...but their parents would no longer be rich, and they might ask for the money back to help in their time of need. The PC is of course free to ignore or deny the request, but that would have interesting roleplaying repercussions.
"Hey junior, you know that money we lent you when you started this adventuring thing?"
"I thought that money was a gift, dad?"
"Whatever. Anyway, your uncle made some poor investment decisions and we're a little short of being able to pay all the staff this month. Now that you're a successful, established adventurer, could you help us out?"
"I don't have anything extra right now..."
"Really? Because we can get back on our feet for less money than you spent on that fancy cloak..."
Or another approach...
"So you don't have Rich Parents anymore eh? No more parents... hrm..."
Orphanzoned.
My Self |
Ravingdork wrote:Turin the Mad wrote:Why do you think my animal handler is adventuring in the first place? Without more money for feed, his poor fluffy heard will starve! ;PThe amusing part of beginning play with nasty combat-trained animals is the most important: feeding them. 13 bison eat a whole lot of animal feed... I'm not so sure I want to take care of feeding a Large or Huge carnivore at 1st level. That gets expensive real fast.
^_____^
I did find the concept of what was it, three thousand housecats, VERY entertaining. "Die all you Commoner scum, DIE!!" (The cats can eat the remains.)
Not 3,000. 30,000.
Tinalles |
How many ranks in Handle Animal do you need to get 30,000 cats to go in the same direction at once? :-Þ
...
More seriously, the Handle Animal skill specifies that it's a move action to get an animal to perform a trick it's trained in, like "attack". And you only get 2 move actions per turn at most, barring weird spells. So in terms of action economy, it's better to get a pair of more dangerous critters than a giant mass of them that have to all act together in order to accomplish anything.
Misroi |
I used to have some problems with Rich Parents, for most of the reasons listed above. It gives a great deal of money to the PC that takes it, and doesn't do anything but give money. While that extra cash is great early on, it really doesn't mean a whole lot by the end of the first book of an AP (or the equivalent). Once you hit level 4, that 900gp that you sold the trait for starts being less and less of a factor.
I've made my peace with it, though. You want to have Rich Parents? Great! Tell me about them! Are they nobles? How'd they get so rich? Got any siblings? If the player is really into the concept of having rich parents, they should be able to do the work to come up with some foils for me to work with in game. If they don't, then all they want this for is free cash, and I'm not inclined to just hand that out.
So, yeah, go ahead and let them take Rich Parents - just let them know that this isn't a one-way street. With that wealth comes obligations.
OilHorse |
OilHorse wrote:Doomed Hero wrote:Word of advice-
If your player decides to retrain the trait later, make sure they "pay back their family." Tell them it will cost 900 gold extra to change the feat out.
This I don't agree with.
I have Rich Parents on a PC, and have taken it before, I generally spend the money on party gear.
-Climbing kits, healing kits, potions of CLW, either totally buying or paying a large sum for a wand of CLW.
When reaching the end of book 1 Shattered Star and I wanted to get the free swap of traits, I got resistence. Not fair they said.
I pointed out that the trait has a finite existence of relevance and that by this time the 900 gp accounted for < 7% of mean 5th level PC wealth, and getting smaller all the time. Added to that fact was that I had bought all sorts of party gear, again mostly paying for a wand that helped the group survive.
The group relented because they saw that the 900 gp was minor, and that none of them wanted to pay back the money with me.
So you talked your group into letting you have a free 900 gold, with no long-term ramifications, at the levels when extra gold is scarce?
Good for you, I guess.
The fact that by the time you wanted to retrain it, 900 gp was only 7% of your expected wealth is just proof that you can afford to pay it off at that point.
I dropped a pile of that money into group use items...would you give money to pay off that wand, or kits and potions that you used also? I doubt it.
Doomed Hero |
Doomed Hero wrote:I dropped a pile of that money into group use items...would you give money to pay off that wand, or kits and potions that you used also? I doubt it.OilHorse wrote:Doomed Hero wrote:Word of advice-
If your player decides to retrain the trait later, make sure they "pay back their family." Tell them it will cost 900 gold extra to change the feat out.
This I don't agree with.
I have Rich Parents on a PC, and have taken it before, I generally spend the money on party gear.
-Climbing kits, healing kits, potions of CLW, either totally buying or paying a large sum for a wand of CLW.
When reaching the end of book 1 Shattered Star and I wanted to get the free swap of traits, I got resistence. Not fair they said.
I pointed out that the trait has a finite existence of relevance and that by this time the 900 gp accounted for < 7% of mean 5th level PC wealth, and getting smaller all the time. Added to that fact was that I had bought all sorts of party gear, again mostly paying for a wand that helped the group survive.
The group relented because they saw that the 900 gp was minor, and that none of them wanted to pay back the money with me.
So you talked your group into letting you have a free 900 gold, with no long-term ramifications, at the levels when extra gold is scarce?
Good for you, I guess.
The fact that by the time you wanted to retrain it, 900 gp was only 7% of your expected wealth is just proof that you can afford to pay it off at that point.
Groups I'm in keep a "party fund" that is essentially just taking an extra PC's share out of the loot and setting it aside for group purchases like Wands of CLW, utility potions and scrolls, or Lyres of Building.
And yes, even if the group I was in didn't keep a group fund, I would still track that money and make sure my debts were square.
Damon Griffin |
One of the PCs in our Carrion Crown game is a Ratfolk TWF Ranger. He took Rich Parents to start play with two masterwork weapons and masterwork armor, giving him a jump start on the expense to have them magically enhanced later.
Magic weapons and armor in Small size aren't easy to come by as found treasure, and he'd always be paying to upgrade two weapons, so he figured he needed all the help he could get.
By 2nd level no one remembered he'd started off rich.
Qaianna |
As far as 'retraining' Rich Parents, I'd have to agree that you'd need to give up the 900g somehow. Someone retraining, say, Dangerously Curious would lose the +1 to UMD and having it as a class skill (as well as the respect of any optimisers around for giving up UMD). It'd be best to of course have it set up as something in the storyline, though. Maybe it's tax time and Dad forgot to account for that herd of bison he invested in when he was first level. Or Mom's kitten swarm passed through some other noble's land and is now being billed for lost serfs. Either way, it's in line with how retraining usually goes.
That said, I'd love to see the Animal Handling DC for 'herding cats'.
My Self |
As far as 'retraining' Rich Parents, I'd have to agree that you'd need to give up the 900g somehow. Someone retraining, say, Dangerously Curious would lose the +1 to UMD and having it as a class skill (as well as the respect of any optimisers around for giving up UMD). It'd be best to of course have it set up as something in the storyline, though. Maybe it's tax time and Dad forgot to account for that herd of bison he invested in when he was first level. Or Mom's kitten swarm passed through some other noble's land and is now being billed for lost serfs. Either way, it's in line with how retraining usually goes.
That said, I'd love to see the Animal Handling DC for 'herding cats'.
Billed for lost serfs? That many kittens would mean that Mom is being sued for lost cities. If a kitten can take a commoner 1:1, that's 30000 commoners lost. Even if the kitten to commoner fatality ratio is much lower due to kitten attrition, natural disasters, hunger, bigger predators, mercenary bands, commoner criticals, etc, that's not a trivial number of dead peasants.
Apparently, kittens only naturally come in groups of up to 12, though I don't see why you shouldn't be able to get more.
phantom1592 |
I took rich parents for my Paladin in Kingmaker. I was able to start off with half-plate and a horse....
Felt very Paladiny and I never had any regrets about taking it. Certainly wasn't overpowered, but don't consider myself nerfed either. My other trait was +2 diplomacy vs Fey... and I think by book 6 I think I only used that 2 or 3 times...
Traits seem pretty fun RP/background stuff... but I've never seen one turn the tide or anything.
Helcack |
I actually give rich parents strings attached, because rich people tend to be stingy. I give them a free 5% increase to their WBL in addition to the 900 gp. now this money doesn't NEED to be spent on keeping their families good name up to snuff, but there will definitely be some roleplay repercussions if it isn't.
OilHorse |
Groups I'm in keep a "party fund" that is essentially just taking an extra PC's share out of the loot and setting it aside for group purchases like Wands of CLW, utility potions and scrolls, or Lyres of Building.And yes, even if the group I was in didn't keep a group fund, I would still track that money and make sure my debts were square.
Not all groups "Party Fund". Some just chip in for things they decide to get as a group.
The RP purchases are generally made at PC creation and by the time the retraining came into play the other players had purchases they were trying to make.
In the end we decided, and I see no reason as to why others wouldn't also decide, that since a decent portion of that "Free Money" went to benefit the group, there should be no reason to force a "repayment"
All this being said, I think I should also mention that I generally refluff Rich 'Parents" into "Previous Experience". Same crunch but the fluff is that this money/gear is what the PC has earned over his life to date.
EldonG |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I love Rich Parents - not because it's particularly powerful, but it allows for a creative backstory. I had a dwarf who was from a small hold that had been destroyed while he was away, deep in the mines - when he returned, he took things that reminded him of those he'd lost, the donkey left alive in the stables to carry it all - and his father's breastplate and MW longhammer, and strove to fill his father's shoes, as a Stonelord.
His parents are gone, now - but I wouldn't retrain the trait...wouldn't even suggest it as possible.
Ravingdork |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As far as 'retraining' Rich Parents, I'd have to agree that you'd need to give up the 900g somehow.
That's as silly as saying "Remember those charges you used from that wand because of the trait that gave you Use Magic Device as a class skill? Yeah, you're gonna have to give those back since you no longer possess the trait. And that time where those charges saved your life? Yeah, you're actually dead now. Good job."
CaptainGemini |
Turin the Mad wrote:Not 3,000. 30,000.Ravingdork wrote:Turin the Mad wrote:Why do you think my animal handler is adventuring in the first place? Without more money for feed, his poor fluffy heard will starve! ;PThe amusing part of beginning play with nasty combat-trained animals is the most important: feeding them. 13 bison eat a whole lot of animal feed... I'm not so sure I want to take care of feeding a Large or Huge carnivore at 1st level. That gets expensive real fast.
^_____^
I did find the concept of what was it, three thousand housecats, VERY entertaining. "Die all you Commoner scum, DIE!!" (The cats can eat the remains.)
If you use the houserule that rolling a natural 20 is a crit threat, rolling a second 20 is a threat to instantly kill, and confirming it forces the enemy to save or die... that many cats could be a legitimate threat even to powerful outsiders.
Qaianna |
Qaianna wrote:As far as 'retraining' Rich Parents, I'd have to agree that you'd need to give up the 900g somehow.That's as silly as saying "Remember those charges you used from that wand because of the trait that gave you Use Magic Device as a class skill? Yeah, you're gonna have to give those back since you no longer possess the trait. And that time where those charges saved your life? Yeah, you're actually dead now. Good job."
Or as silly as saying 'Remember that +4 you have to UMD? Those ranks are gone. Don't you feel dumber now?' This might be why traits aren't normally called out as retrainable, I guess.
Then again, Paizo kind'a beat us to it.
Remember also that traits are intended to model events that were formative in your character's development, either events from before he became an adventurer, or (in the case of additional traits gained via the Additional Traits feat) ones that happened while adventuring. Even if your character becomes a hermit and abandons society, he'll still retain his legacy of growing up an aristocrat if he took the relevant social trait. The one exception to this is religion traits—since these traits require continued faith in a specific deity, your character can indeed lose the benefits of these traits if he switches religions. In this case, consult your GM for your options.
Which means that the raw (and RAW) answer is no retraining so it's moot anyway. And you get to skip out on paying for all that bison feed and kitten damage your parents tried to saddle you with.
My Self |
My Self wrote:If you use the houserule that rolling a natural 20 is a crit threat, rolling a second 20 is a threat to instantly kill, and confirming it forces the enemy to save or die... that many cats could be a legitimate threat even to powerful outsiders.Turin the Mad wrote:Not 3,000. 30,000.Ravingdork wrote:Turin the Mad wrote:Why do you think my animal handler is adventuring in the first place? Without more money for feed, his poor fluffy heard will starve! ;PThe amusing part of beginning play with nasty combat-trained animals is the most important: feeding them. 13 bison eat a whole lot of animal feed... I'm not so sure I want to take care of feeding a Large or Huge carnivore at 1st level. That gets expensive real fast.
^_____^
I did find the concept of what was it, three thousand housecats, VERY entertaining. "Die all you Commoner scum, DIE!!" (The cats can eat the remains.)
Except the flying kind.
Or the swimming kind. Or the ones with regeneration. Or the kind with at-will 40-foot radius blasts (blasphemy, anybody?).
CaptainGemini |
CaptainGemini wrote:My Self wrote:If you use the houserule that rolling a natural 20 is a crit threat, rolling a second 20 is a threat to instantly kill, and confirming it forces the enemy to save or die... that many cats could be a legitimate threat even to powerful outsiders.Turin the Mad wrote:Not 3,000. 30,000.Ravingdork wrote:Turin the Mad wrote:Why do you think my animal handler is adventuring in the first place? Without more money for feed, his poor fluffy heard will starve! ;PThe amusing part of beginning play with nasty combat-trained animals is the most important: feeding them. 13 bison eat a whole lot of animal feed... I'm not so sure I want to take care of feeding a Large or Huge carnivore at 1st level. That gets expensive real fast.
^_____^
I did find the concept of what was it, three thousand housecats, VERY entertaining. "Die all you Commoner scum, DIE!!" (The cats can eat the remains.)
Except the flying kind.
Or the swimming kind. Or the ones with regeneration. Or the kind with at-will 40-foot radius blasts (blasphemy, anybody?).
Or the kind that doesn't have to worry about making the save...
phantom1592 |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would straight up kill the parents of a character who retrained to not have "Rich Parents" (if they did it in a rules legal way).
I mean, seriously...
You no longer have rich parents.
They are gone.
:D
that would be the extent of my reaction though, it's just a trait.
Step one of becoming batman... complete!
GeraintElberion |
alexd1976 wrote:Step one of becoming batman... complete!I would straight up kill the parents of a character who retrained to not have "Rich Parents" (if they did it in a rules legal way).
I mean, seriously...
You no longer have rich parents.
They are gone.
:D
that would be the extent of my reaction though, it's just a trait.
Thing is...
retraining is something the character chooses to do, it requires effort.
So, the GM doesn't kill off the parents; the PC does.
alexd1976 |
alexd1976 wrote:Step one of becoming batman... complete!I would straight up kill the parents of a character who retrained to not have "Rich Parents" (if they did it in a rules legal way).
I mean, seriously...
You no longer have rich parents.
They are gone.
:D
that would be the extent of my reaction though, it's just a trait.
Awesome. :D
My Self |
phantom1592 wrote:Awesome. :Dalexd1976 wrote:Step one of becoming batman... complete!I would straight up kill the parents of a character who retrained to not have "Rich Parents" (if they did it in a rules legal way).
I mean, seriously...
You no longer have rich parents.
They are gone.
:D
that would be the extent of my reaction though, it's just a trait.
Retrain Rich Parents into Finding Haleen, or maybe "Finding Joe Chill" or something similar.
Qaianna |
The argument of "you lose skill ranks" when retraining trait is dumb when you can retrain a feat and lose skill ranks. If you can retrain skill focus, you can retrain a skill boosting trait.
Technically, you don't lose skill RANKS as such. Just the +1 trait bonus, and possibly the +3 class skill bonus. I don't know any effects that would drop your actual ranks aside from outright permanent Int drain, and I haven't checked up on how that would actually work.
Snowblind |
hiiamtom wrote:The argument of "you lose skill ranks" when retraining trait is dumb when you can retrain a feat and lose skill ranks. If you can retrain skill focus, you can retrain a skill boosting trait.Technically, you don't lose skill RANKS as such. Just the +1 trait bonus, and possibly the +3 class skill bonus. I don't know any effects that would drop your actual ranks aside from outright permanent Int drain, and I haven't checked up on how that would actually work.
Retraining Skill Ranks?
Snowblind |
*Ctrl-F*
"tiger"Huh. Took all the way to the twenty-first post before someone brought it up. Not bad, guys.
Yeah friends don't let friends get tigers.
Unless the friends are casters with animal companions. Then it's totally OK because the pocket fighter is a class feature, not a gold expenditure.
#canthavenicethings, #fantastickosmicpower, #martialssuck
yes, I brought C/M disparity into this - I thought I would create more material so you don't slack off with that C/M index