Worship of Aroden in PFS


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1/5

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

This is a rules question - but it is PFS dependent, and so I'm hoping the General Discussion is a fine place to ask (if not, feel free to move :) ).

I have a player who would like to worship the dead God Aroden with their non-divine reliant character (I believe it is with a summoner).

Aroden - being quite dead (for now) - isn't typically a God that is worshiped, but is there any harm in allowing it for players who do not even have divine spells? The player mostly wants this worship for RP purposes.

My inclination is to say 'sure', but interested in opinions. I would still enforce the one-step alignment rule, but beyond that I'm inclined to allow it.

Thanks!

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

The answer is "No," you technically cannot put down Aroden's name on the "deity" section of your character sheet, as he does not appear in any of the charts that legalize worship.

However, you can put down another god's name (or no god) and have your character venerate Aroden in a way slightly different than proper worship.

Silver Crusade 5/5

As long as there is no mechanical benefit your player can say that they worship/venerate/whatever whoever.

Edit: Because yes, let's quibble needlessly over semantics.

Scarab Sages

A quick skim over the additional resources document doesnt lead me to believe it is legal.

Inner Sea World guide says any on certain tables are legal and that is not on the tables called out.

Now as a purely RP my character says he worships Aroden with no mechanical benefits.. Well how do you tell someone that god is dead and they cant say that?

Silver Crusade 3/5

Sorry, I deleted my previous post because it was not quite correct.

The Fox wrote:
Yes, one can worship Aroden, so long as there is no mechanical benefit.

That part is correct.

Here is a suggestion for your player: Worship Iomedae and venerate Aroden. Imagine a character that prays to Iomedae every night for Aroden's return.

1/5

These are some great suggestions.

I suppose I do have a semi-related question - it is true that all characters regardless of class may only worship deities within one alignment step (if they worship one at all), correct? The guide to organized play does not differentiate between deity-reliant and non-reliant characters when it says (page 10):

"Characters may elect to worship an evil god, but must always be within one alignment step of their chosen deity."


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The PC cannot "worship" Aroden, as he is dead. The PC can, however, "venerate" Aroden for no mechanical benefit.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

It does distinguish. In pfs, worship has a specific meaning. It means you pray to that deity and you get something in return. If you pray to a deity and get nothing, that is veneration, and you can venerate whoever you want. (though a character who worships a good deity and venerates an evil one may be violating the tenets of their faith and may need an attonement eventually.

Scarab Sages 4/5

Tabletop - I believe that is correct, yes. If you want to worship a deity (and thus be eligible to receive a mechanical benefit), you must be within one step of the deity's alignment. There are other mechanical benefits from worship of a particular deity besides divine casting. It can open up traits, variant spellcasting, or deific obediences, for example.

As others have mentioned, you can venerate any deity that you want, and in fact multiple deities. But worship, at least in PFS, has become a mechanical aspect of the character.

1/5

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This question has been illuminating for me.

Here is how I am now conceiving of 'worship' in PFS (I like things to be well defined): 'Worship' implies a two-way link has been established and accepted by both sides, from worshiper to God and vice-versa. Gods will only accept such a link as long as the worshiper is within one-step of their alignment. Gods do not care if you are a divine caster or not - they simply will not allow such a 'link' if you are outside of their alignment scope.

Further, a God that is 'dead' is incapable (for the moment) of establishing any such link, and therefore cannot be worshiped under this definition.

However, a player may 'venerate' anything they choose. Veneration is a one-way admiration, from player to object, and therefore requires no 'link'. A player may venerate a dead god, or a plate of tacos, or anything else they deem worthy of being 'holy' to them.

This is for the TG site as well - the question was generated from there. I believe I'm going to add a 'Venerate' field that is free text in which a player can declare those things they feel are worth their devotion (such as Aroden).

Thanks all :)

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Worship is the word PFS exclusively uses if you want mechanical benefit. You cannot worship Aroden in PFS.

Generate is the word in PFS to use if you don't care about mechanical benefit. You can Generate Aroden in PFS.

Silver Crusade 3/5

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Andrew Christian wrote:

Worship is the word PFS exclusively uses if you want mechanical benefit. You cannot worship Aroden in PFS.

Generate is the word in PFS to use if you don't care about mechanical benefit. You can Generate Aroden in PFS.

You keep using that word...

;)

5/5 5/55/55/5

4 people marked this as a favorite.

BEHOLD THE POWER OF THE GOD MACHIIIINE!

Shadow Lodge 4/5

I have wondered about this for both Aroden and Razmir. They both have items in the Gods and magic that give an additional benefit if Aroden or Razmir is your Patron "deity"

Azlant Pendant

Holy Mask of the living god

Both items are allowed in PFS. So the system has a precedent for Worshipping Aroden or Razmir and getting a benefit from these items

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Andrew Christian wrote:
You can Generate Aroden in PFS.

Would that be the new Vigilante Pregen?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
The Fox wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

Worship is the word PFS exclusively uses if you want mechanical benefit. You cannot worship Aroden in PFS.

Generate is the word in PFS to use if you don't care about mechanical benefit. You can Generate Aroden in PFS.

You keep using that word...

;)

Her... Stupid phone.

Venerate

Dark Archive 5/5

There is a guide here on what Gods are legal for PFS that is used in the FAQ if I'm not mistaken.

Under the rules, Aroden isn't a deity officially listed on anything as has been pointed out so he technically isn't a legal deity for play, but he's also technically not a "deity" at this point in Golarion history either.

I'd say it's probably something similar to the Prophecies of Kalistrade, a secular philosophy based on the teachings of Aroden's old church. That same is probably also true of people who "worship" Razmir as the actual echelons of Razmir's church are aware he's not a god and use the idea that he is one to control people.

This could get tricky though as then people could claim to only be "following the ideas" of say nascent demon lords and not worshiping them which starts to dip into a gray area.

I'd say it's legal though.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Soooo....

I want to make sure I understand this correctly, please correct any Gross Conceptual Errors.

A. You MUST follow a deity in PFS play.

B. You CANNOT follow a dead, false, or forgotten deity in PFS play.

C. Atheism is STRAIGHT OUT.

D. In addition to the above, if you seek any sort of mechanical benefit from your worship of your deity, your alignment MUST be within one step of said deity.

Does that summarize this correctly?

Silver Crusade 2/5

Only classes with divine magic must worship a deity.

GtOP7, p. 10 wrote:


Clerics, inquisitors, paladins, cavaliers of
the order of the star, and samurai of the order of the
star must choose a deity as all classes in Golarion that
receive spells and abilities from a specific divine source
receive their powers from a deity. Druids, oracles, and
rangers are the exception to this rule. The list is not
exhaustive, and divine spellcasters of any future classes
whose sources are added as additional resources will be
required to choose a deity unless otherwise specified.
Otherwise, characters who do not receive powers from
a divine source may choose to be atheists or to have no
deity at all.

You also must worship a deity for some traits and feats.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Soooo....

I want to make sure I understand this correctly, please correct any Gross Conceptual Errors.

A. You MUST follow a deity in PFS play.

B. You CANNOT follow a dead, false, or forgotten deity in PFS play.

C. Atheism is STRAIGHT OUT.

D. In addition to the above, if you seek any sort of mechanical benefit from your worship of your deity, your alignment MUST be within one step of said deity.

Does that summarize this correctly?

Nope.

A. You MUST worship a deity in PFS play only if your class requires you to.

B. You CANNOT worship a dead, false, or forgotten deity in PFS play, unless that deity is allowed by additional resources.

C. Atheism is completely legit in PFS.

D. Correct.

E. You can venerate anything you want, as long as you don't expect any sort of mechanical benefit.

"follow" is not a term officially recognized by PFS.

Its worship or venerate or atheism.


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The Additional Resources document allows the Pantheons and Aroden appears on the cultural pantheon. Granted, it's qualified by a parenthetical (before his death) but he hasn't exactly been removed from the list. I can't really imagine anyone raising a stink about listing a character as an Aroden worshiper if you aren't deriving a mechanical benefit from your worship. After all, if you can worship none, then worshiping something that isn't a god (or no longer is one) doesn't seem a very far step.

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

There's at least one Religion trait specifically for worshipers of Aroden (Faithful Arodenite, from Sargava, the Lost Colony) that is listed as legal in PFS.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thank you very much for the education!

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

To expand on Andrews point by point

Andrew Christian wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Soooo....

I want to make sure I understand this correctly, please correct any Gross Conceptual Errors.

A. You MUST follow a deity in PFS play.

B. You CANNOT follow a dead, false, or forgotten deity in PFS play.

C. Atheism is STRAIGHT OUT.

D. In addition to the above, if you seek any sort of mechanical benefit from your worship of your deity, your alignment MUST be within one step of said deity.

Does that summarize this correctly?

Nope.

A. You MUST worship a deity in PFS play only if your class requires you to.

More precisely, you MUST worship a deity in order to make use of any feature that gives a mechanical benefit to followers, priests, or worshipers, etc. of that deity.

That can be traits, magical items, classes (specifically clerics and war priests, but not oracles or druids), feats, or any other feature.

You can worship only one deity, it must be a deity on the list, and it must be within one step of your alignment. You need not worship any deity at all.

Andrew Christian wrote:


B. You CANNOT worship a dead, false, or forgotten deity in PFS play, unless that deity is allowed by additional resources.

You can however venerate whoever you want. You just won't get a mechanical benefit.

Andrew Christian wrote:
C. Atheism is completely legit in PFS.

Atheist Clerics, although hinted at in the core rule book, are not. They do not fit the developers world view, and to some extent their absence is what makes Razmir special.

Andrew Christian wrote:
"follow" is not a term officially recognized by PFS.

Actually a number of magic items mention followers in their flavor text, but I believe in their mechanics it usually uses "It the users Patron is..."

Andrew Christian wrote:
Its worship or venerate or atheism.

Or indifference or agnosticism, however those are mechanically more or less indistinguishable from atheism.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Bill Dunn wrote:
The Additional Resources document allows the Pantheons and Aroden appears on the cultural pantheon. Granted, it's qualified by a parenthetical (before his death) but he hasn't exactly been removed from the list. I can't really imagine anyone raising a stink about listing a character as an Aroden worshiper if you aren't deriving a mechanical benefit from your worship. After all, if you can worship none, then worshiping something that isn't a god (or no longer is one) doesn't seem a very far step.

In PFS, we differentiate between the word Worship and Venerate.

You cannot worship something that isn't in the Additional Resources, and you have to follow the rules in the guide for worshiping.

If you don't care about any mechanical benefits, you can use the word venerate instead.

It may seem pedantic and semantic.

But the point is, PFS has defined what worship means in the campaign. So please don't use the word worship unless you are going to specifically follow those rules.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

FLite wrote:

To expand on Andrews point by point

Andrew Christian wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Soooo....

I want to make sure I understand this correctly, please correct any Gross Conceptual Errors.

A. You MUST follow a deity in PFS play.

B. You CANNOT follow a dead, false, or forgotten deity in PFS play.

C. Atheism is STRAIGHT OUT.

D. In addition to the above, if you seek any sort of mechanical benefit from your worship of your deity, your alignment MUST be within one step of said deity.

Does that summarize this correctly?

Nope.

A. You MUST worship a deity in PFS play only if your class requires you to.

More precisely, you MUST worship a deity in order to make use of any feature that gives a mechanical benefit to followers, priests, or worshipers, etc. of that deity.

That can be traits, magical items, classes (specifically clerics and war priests, but not oracles or druids), feats, or any other feature.

You can worship only one deity, it must be a deity on the list, and it must be within one step of your alignment. You need not worship any deity at all.

Andrew Christian wrote:


B. You CANNOT worship a dead, false, or forgotten deity in PFS play, unless that deity is allowed by additional resources.

You can however venerate whoever you want. You just won't get a mechanical benefit.

Andrew Christian wrote:
C. Atheism is completely legit in PFS.

Atheist Clerics, although hinted at in the core rule book, are not. They do not fit the developers world view, and to some extent their absence is what makes Razmir special.

Andrew Christian wrote:
"follow" is not a term officially recognized by PFS.

Actually a number of magic items mention followers in their flavor text, but I believe in their mechanics it usually uses "It the users Patron is..."

Andrew Christian wrote:
Its worship or venerate or atheism.
Or indifference or agnosticism, however those are mechanically more or less...

Not sure why you clarified my "B" when I added an "E" that basically said the same thing.

Dark Archive 5/5

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I think it's kinda silly they call it "atheism" in pathfinder which is essentially disbelief in the existence a of god. I don't think many in the Pathfinder universe lack belief that the gods are real entities. They generally either actively oppose gods like in Rahadoum (anti-theism) or they don't care to worship any of them (apatheism).

Grand Lodge 4/5

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josh Newton wrote:

I have wondered about this for both Aroden and Razmir. They both have items in the Gods and magic that give an additional benefit if Aroden or Razmir is your Patron "deity"

Azlant Pendant

Holy Mask of the living god

Both items are allowed in PFS. So the system has a precedent for Worshipping Aroden or Razmir and getting a benefit from these items

@Andrew: Any ideas on how to make this work?

According to your comments, these items either won't work at all, or should not be legal for PFS, even though they are specifically Golarion in theme.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Well, the first half of them work.

Debatably, a razmiran priest (sorcerer archtype) might count Razmir as their patron.

Grand Lodge

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How do legal traits and magic items that require you to worship Aroden work?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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In addition to atheism (little "a") I'll add indifference, pantheism and polytheism to the mix. I have a former pesh addict who tried going through Sarenrae's 17 step recovery program but found it too expensive, so she believes she's too poor to worship a god. On the other end my Vudrani invokes solely the Vudran pantheon (I think I have like 12 names written down on my sheet) and my Rogue worships whatever deity he thinks will benefit him at that moment (like that guy from the movie The Mummy).

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

Clank Clank wrote:
I think it's kinda silly they call it "atheism" in pathfinder which is essentially disbelief in the existence a of god. I don't think many in the Pathfinder universe lack belief that the gods are real entities. They generally either actively oppose gods like in Rahadoum (anti-theism) or they don't care to worship any of them (apatheism).

Terry Pratchett also called it atheism in the Discworld books. I think vocal atheists were something akin to literal lightning rods though :P

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Atheism can exist in Pathfinder, but it's of a different sort than the real life philosophy.

In our world, atheism is the default from birth, and as you age you acquire a religion, faith, or set of beliefs.

In Pathfinder, theism is the default from birth, and as you age you acquire a belief that the gods are just supernatural mortals.

1/5 5/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:

Atheism can exist in Pathfinder, but it's of a different sort than the real life philosophy.

In our world, atheism is the default from birth, and as you age you acquire a religion, faith, or set of beliefs.

In Pathfinder, theism is the default from birth, and as you age you acquire a belief that the gods are just supernatural mortals.

"So they made a 'miracle' happen, huh? Bah. A real miracle is when you get the Andorans and the Chelaxians to sit down to the same table and talk politely without any political maneuvering. Call me when that happens. Hope you have some of those flowers from down south handy..."

Sczarni 4/5

blackbloodtroll wrote:

How do legal traits and magic items that require you to worship Aroden work?

Things can be legal without being usable. The Goblins of golarion traits that require you to be a goblin were legal for almost a year before the 30 goblin boons came out. There are boons out there for 2 years now that have options that are only legal for kobolds. Maybe pathfinder 100 will open veer ratio of Aroden or worship for non Devine? Maybe a feat or archetype down the line will allow you to count as worshiping a dead God as long as you don't get spells? There are a few other options I can think of.... Like a boon for clearing an old Aroden temple, Iomadae gives you power as if you worshiped Aroden. But just because an item might not work for a character now, doesn't mean It never will. And having it legal from the start means they don't need to find all the books where such an item was and add it to the resources later.

Silver Crusade 4/5

Nefreet wrote:
In addition to atheism (little "a") I'll add indifference, pantheism and polytheism to the mix. I have a former pesh addict who tried going through Sarenrae's 17 step recovery program but found it too expensive, so she believes she's too poor to worship a god. On the other end my Vudrani invokes solely the Vudran pantheon (I think I have like 12 names written down on my sheet) and my Rogue worships whatever deity he thinks will benefit him at that moment (like that guy from the movie The Mummy).

My ex-slave archer bard routinely thanks Cayden Cailean for his freedom, Erastil for his archery skill, Shelyn for his performing skill, and Nethys for his his magical ability. Coincidentally, he's the only alignment that would let him be a worshiper of any of them. But he gets no mechanical advantage, so he's not a "worshiper", in game terms, of any of them.

I also have a barbarian who would be a perfect worshiper of Gorum. He loves a good fight and doesn't care which side he's on, other than being ultra loyal to his friends. But he intentionally rejected all the gods when he rejected his family upbringing - he comes from a long line of paladins, and caved under the pressure of following the family tradition. So Gorum probably considers him a favorite son, even though the barbarian himself has never said a prayer.

More closely related to the original topic, I actually have a friend who made it to level 14 with her paladin of Aroden before the rule change requiring paladins to worship a valid deity in PFS.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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If aroden worship isn't legal, a few things need to come off of the additional resources list so they don't become trap options, like devotee to a dead god.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

kinevon wrote:
josh Newton wrote:

I have wondered about this for both Aroden and Razmir. They both have items in the Gods and magic that give an additional benefit if Aroden or Razmir is your Patron "deity"

Azlant Pendant

Holy Mask of the living god

Both items are allowed in PFS. So the system has a precedent for Worshipping Aroden or Razmir and getting a benefit from these items

@Andrew: Any ideas on how to make this work?

According to your comments, these items either won't work at all, or should not be legal for PFS, even though they are specifically Golarion in theme.

Specific typically trumps general.

In this case, just like Priest (which is a trigger word for some things as well) Patron is not really defined for PFS. My hope is the new CC will define these words.

The way I'd handle it, is that while you can't worship either of these two entities, you can venerate them. I would use the rules on how to worship (i.e. one alignment step away) and just call it venerate.

However, expect table variation.

EDIT: A precedent for this type of exception is seen in PFS with saddles.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Andrew Christian wrote:
kinevon wrote:
josh Newton wrote:

I have wondered about this for both Aroden and Razmir. They both have items in the Gods and magic that give an additional benefit if Aroden or Razmir is your Patron "deity"

Azlant Pendant

Holy Mask of the living god

Both items are allowed in PFS. So the system has a precedent for Worshipping Aroden or Razmir and getting a benefit from these items

@Andrew: Any ideas on how to make this work?

According to your comments, these items either won't work at all, or should not be legal for PFS, even though they are specifically Golarion in theme.

Specific typically trumps general.

In this case, just like Priest (which is a trigger word for some things as well) Patron is not really defined for PFS. My hope is the new CC will define these words.

The way I'd handle it, is that while you can't worship either of these two entities, you can venerate them. I would use the rules on how to worship (i.e. one alignment step away) and just call it venerate.

However, expect table variation.

I agree with what Andrew said. In the specific cases there may be some intermediate step between worship and venerate, where you can get mechanical benefit, but couldn't derive Cleric powers from Aroden. It's a specificity thing. Not that these are the only trap feats in the system. There is one I've read that gives a power that replicates what is already described in the CRB, but that's a different story.

1/5

Clank Clank wrote:
I think it's kinda silly they call it "atheism" in pathfinder which is essentially disbelief in the existence a of god. I don't think many in the Pathfinder universe lack belief that the gods are real entities. They generally either actively oppose gods like in Rahadoum (anti-theism) or they don't care to worship any of them (apatheism).

Yep. In a world where you have people empowered by the gods able to raise the dead, heal any wounds, call down miracles and level towns with earthquakes it doesn't seem like there's much space for atheism at all.

Grand Lodge 4/5

There's not much space, but it can exist. It mostly ends up being quibbling over what exactly defines a god, though.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Rogar Valertis wrote:
Clank Clank wrote:
I think it's kinda silly they call it "atheism" in pathfinder which is essentially disbelief in the existence a of god. I don't think many in the Pathfinder universe lack belief that the gods are real entities. They generally either actively oppose gods like in Rahadoum (anti-theism) or they don't care to worship any of them (apatheism).
Yep. In a world where you have people empowered by the gods able to raise the dead, heal any wounds, call down miracles and level towns with earthquakes it doesn't seem like there's much space for atheism at all.

Its easier than you'd think. Keep in mind the world these people live in. Someone can go ickity ackity ook and chuck a 30 foot sphere of fire out of their hands and leave the laws of conservation of energy crying in the corner. A prayer could very easy just be a disguised spell.

It doesn't help that the gods don't have exclusive access to anything really. The singer at the inn can heal you up after a bar fight, the crazy blind guy in the market can get rid of your diseases, and the tree hugger is even better at imploring a ficus to get rid of poison.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Not to mention that there are beings like Demon Lords that definitely aren't gods, but can be worshiped and grant the same benefit the actual gods do.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Also, there is a mythic power that lets you be worshiped and grant powers to your followers. And there are alien space ships with strange powers no one understands and cannot duplicate. So it is definitely possible for a Golarion character to believe that the "gods" are just Mythic Aliens that have duped people into worshiping them.

(Of course, if you are vocal about this around the wrong person, it is also possible for a golarion character to get turned into a charcoal briquette.)

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Nefreet wrote:
and my Rogue worships whatever deity he thinks will benefit him at that moment (like that guy from the movie The Mummy).

This is exactly what I imagined when formulating my first PFS character.

He primarily worships Dagon but venerates a pantheon of deities including Besmara, Cayden Cailean, Calistria, Count Ranalc, Desna, Gozreh, Hanspur, Hei Feng, Kofusachi, Lantern King, Milani, Ragadahn and Sun Wukong.

FREEEDOOMMMM

The Exchange 5/5

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in the Deity blank on my PC sheet it says... "Yeah, that one..."


Mike Bramnik wrote:
Clank Clank wrote:
I think it's kinda silly they call it "atheism" in pathfinder which is essentially disbelief in the existence a of god. I don't think many in the Pathfinder universe lack belief that the gods are real entities. They generally either actively oppose gods like in Rahadoum (anti-theism) or they don't care to worship any of them (apatheism).
Terry Pratchett also called it atheism in the Discworld books. I think vocal atheists were something akin to literal lightning rods though :P

Yeah, anybody claiming that the gods didn't exist on the Disc typically ended up struck by a bolt of lightning with a little note attached saying, "yes, we do".

5/5 5/55/55/5

Vutava wrote:
Mike Bramnik wrote:
Clank Clank wrote:
I think it's kinda silly they call it "atheism" in pathfinder which is essentially disbelief in the existence a of god. I don't think many in the Pathfinder universe lack belief that the gods are real entities. They generally either actively oppose gods like in Rahadoum (anti-theism) or they don't care to worship any of them (apatheism).
Terry Pratchett also called it atheism in the Discworld books. I think vocal atheists were something akin to literal lightning rods though :P
Yeah, anybody claiming that the gods didn't exist on the Disc typically ended up struck by a bolt of lightning with a little note attached saying, "yes, we do".

A wizard did it.

BAZZZZT.. Ow! quit it. Bzzzzt Ow! Quit it.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Vutava wrote:
Mike Bramnik wrote:
Clank Clank wrote:
I think it's kinda silly they call it "atheism" in pathfinder which is essentially disbelief in the existence a of god. I don't think many in the Pathfinder universe lack belief that the gods are real entities. They generally either actively oppose gods like in Rahadoum (anti-theism) or they don't care to worship any of them (apatheism).
Terry Pratchett also called it atheism in the Discworld books. I think vocal atheists were something akin to literal lightning rods though :P
Yeah, anybody claiming that the gods didn't exist on the Disc typically ended up struck by a bolt of lightning with a little note attached saying, "yes, we do".

Except for one.

4/5

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All hail the great and all knowing Razmir!!!

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