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Yep. In a world where you have people empowered by the gods able to raise the dead, heal any wounds, call down miracles and level towns with earthquakes it doesn't seem like there's much space for atheism at all.
Indeed. Consider - magic missile never misses. Never. Who, upon witnessing such perfection, could ever doubt the power of Ballisticus, God of Projectiles? (Praise to Him be unending as He is unerring!)
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Yep. In a world where you have people empowered by the gods able to raise the dead, heal any wounds, call down miracles and level towns with earthquakes it doesn't seem like there's much space for atheism at all.Indeed. Consider - magic missile never misses. Never. Who, upon witnessing such perfection, could ever doubt the power of Ballisticus, God of Projectiles? (Praise to Him be unending as He is unerring!)
Unless you are attempting to hit the bulls-eye of an archery target, as it's divine power is incapable of targeting objects.
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Atheism can exist in Pathfinder, but it's of a different sort than the real life philosophy.
In our world, atheism is the default from birth, and as you age you acquire a religion, faith, or set of beliefs.
In Pathfinder, theism is the default from birth, and as you age you acquire a belief that the gods are just supernatural mortals.
I am thinking along similar lines; an atheist in Pathfinder would obviously have to admit (unless they be bonkers) that the Gods exist and that they do have powers. What they can believe, though, is that the Gods are not necessarily who they say they are, and that other things are afoot than divinity.
There is a good RPG out there that has something similar as a reveal in its story line, that could be used as inspiration.
And only read the following if you don't mind the storyline reveal in this game being somewhat spoiled for you:
In this game, there is an ancient race that long ago died out. Eventually you learn more about them, and you find that this race was much more powerful than modern human beings or any of the other races, and they used their powerful grasp of science and technology to pursue the big big question of the divine. What they found was - nothing. Nothing at all. They actually were able to 'prove' somehow that nothing in the divine existed at all.
These beings were greatly disturbed by this void, because they felt that the existence of the divine would be a great boon for younger civilizations. The notion of Gods would inspire the younger civilizations to rise up, evolve, and to attempt to be as great as the Gods they worship.
So, they used their powerful technologies and knowledge of the workings of the universe to *create* the Gods. This ancient race was so highly advanced so as to create artificial beings that appeared to be Godlike to the younger races for all practical purposes. The Gods themselves do not even know they are a fraud - for they are creations of this old race - and so the entire spectrum of beings is fooled by this creation.
It wouldn't be hard at all to take this concept and work it into a character. Pathfinder also has a powerful ancient advanced race that died out - the Azlanti - and so an Atheist in Golarion could perhaps believe that the Gods are constructs of this ancient civilization, and there is actually nothing truly divine in the universe, at all.
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I found something relevant on the FAQ!
What determines if my character can be a “worshiper” of a deity?
As a character, you may choose to worship a single deity or pantheon (the “deity”). If you worship a pantheon, you do not count as worshiping every god in that pantheon; you must choose one deity from that pantheon for the purpose of gaining mechanical benefits.Your character’s alignment must be within one step of that of the deity he or she worships. Any character with levels in a class that grants spells or other features from a specific deity must worship that deity.
A character may only worship one deity at a time; the character may change which deity she worships between sessions at no cost. If this change requires the character to change alignment, the character is required to pay for an atonement. Any element incompatible with the new deity no longer functions. These elements may be retrained at normal cost using the rules from Ultimate Campaign.
For example, a cleric of Desna with the Travel and Luck domains and the Butterfly Sting feat switches her worship to Shelyn. The cleric may still use the Luck domain because Shelyn grants that domain, but not the Travel domain or the Butterfly Sting feat, because worship of Shelyn does not grant access to those features.
So in PFS your MUST be within one step of your chosen deity to be considered a follower and pantheon worshipers only gain benefit from one deity in their pantheon at any time. So there you have it.
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Keep in mind that Aroden has been dead longer than most Elves have been alive, let alone Humans.
It's a bit far out for anyone to want to worship him now, with the Inheritor having taken over for him in just about all respects.
Sorry, not quite. Aroden died 109 years ago. Gnomes, dwarves, elves just of the core races could still have people alive that were adventuring when Aroden was alive, some of those even the last time Aroden was seen in battle almost 300 years ago. Max ages for the longest lived races is 850 years (Genie-kin and Samsarans at least), 450 years for Dwarves, 500 years for gnomes and 750 for elves.
Actually there are 9 PFS legal races (Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Wayang, Samsaran, Undine, Ifrit, Oread, and Sylph) that could have been born before the death of Aroden and still not even considered old by their race.
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I found something relevant on the FAQ!
So in PFS your MUST be within one step of your chosen deity to be considered a follower and pantheon worshipers only gain benefit from one deity in their pantheon at any time. So there you have it.What determines if my character can be a “worshiper” of a deity?
As a character, you may choose to worship a single deity or pantheon (the “deity”). If you worship a pantheon, you do not count as worshiping every god in that pantheon; you must choose one deity from that pantheon for the purpose of gaining mechanical benefits.Your character’s alignment must be within one step of that of the deity he or she worships. Any character with levels in a class that grants spells or other features from a specific deity must worship that deity.
A character may only worship one deity at a time; the character may change which deity she worships between sessions at no cost. If this change requires the character to change alignment, the character is required to pay for an atonement. Any element incompatible with the new deity no longer functions. These elements may be retrained at normal cost using the rules from Ultimate Campaign.
For example, a cleric of Desna with the Travel and Luck domains and the Butterfly Sting feat switches her worship to Shelyn. The cleric may still use the Luck domain because Shelyn grants that domain, but not the Travel domain or the Butterfly Sting feat, because worship of Shelyn does not grant access to those features.
So, what alignment is the late Aroden? (Note: IS, not WAS)
So, no alignment is listed anywhere I can find for Razmir, although the country is listed as LE. What alignment is Razmir?
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Aroden was LN, debate if you would like what he now is, but unless he reincarnated or became a different God I'd say he still is LN.
Razmir is not a god despite acting like one. However he does have a listed alignment of LE according to the wiki and a level (19 Wizard), but I can't find it in any of the primary sources. (He'd be the second highest level NPC I can think of behind Old-Mage Jatembe who is 20 with 6 mythic tiers) I think in an Autocratic Theocracy it wouldn't be a stretch to assume the government and the leader match in alignment. (I don't have my ISWG on me to check the cover as Pirate Rob suggested, I checked the listed pages before heading to work)
Edit: Hah, thanks Kalindlara, on pg. 7 (That's awesome, hadn't really looked at those pages - there are some other ones that would give Jatembe a run for his money)
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He might be the highest if Jatembe is presumed deceased. Razmir himself is clearly something other than *just" a Wizard 19 as he has accomplished things that go beyond standard class abilities.Aroden was LN, debate if you would like what he now is, but unless he reincarnated or became a different God I'd say he still is LN.
Razmir is not a god despite acting like one. However he does have a listed alignment of LE according to the wiki and a level (19 Wizard), but I can't find it in any of the primary sources. (He'd be the second highest level NPC I can think of behind Old-Mage Jatembe who is 20 with 6 mythic tiers) I think in an Autocratic Theocracy it wouldn't be a stretch to assume the government and the leader match in alignment. (I don't have my ISWG on me to check the cover as Pirate Rob suggested, I checked the listed pages before heading to work)
Edit: Hah, thanks Kalindlara, on pg. 7 (That's awesome, hadn't really looked at those pages - there are some other ones that would give Jatembe a run for his money)
Only if you don't count Tar-Baphon (Lich necromaner 20+), Arazni (Lich wizard 20, Artokus Kiran (Alchemist 20 inventor of the Sun Orchid Elixir), and Queen Elvanna of Irrisen (Witch 20). And that's just the single classed one, there's also Kortash Khain (Cleric 5 / Wizard 5 / Mystic Theruge 10, High Priest of Kabriri) and Kaltessa Iyis (Cleric 10 / Diabolist 10 High Priestess of Mammon).
Edit: Oh, and Geb (Ghost necromancer 20 ruler of well, Geb)
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Tar-Baphon isn't a deityjust an extremely powerful (albeit currently locked away) lich. Arazni was a herald before she cought a lethal case of death, and when she was a herald she was still human. The rest are still as powerful as Razmir.
You're missing my point however. There are enough power players running around Golarion that trying to rank them is kind of pointless. Razmir is just a very powerful wizard. Also about him doing stuff that an ordinary wizard can't do, I wonder if there is some spell that might let him do stuff outside of his class, like wish?
Edit: Yeah Rei, I'd also count Baba Yaga.
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In my opinion, Kain takes the cake of all accounted and present supercasters of Golarion: Cleric 5/Sorcerer 5/Mystic theurge 10/Hierophant 6. And he's a ghoul aristocrat ruling a massive kingdom to boot. Now if one of the tougher Thassilonians should awaken or Baba Yaga is visiting Golarion, then it's a whole new league.
Anyways, Walkena is high tier also: Undead Oracle 12/Hierophant 9 who can grant spells to his followers.
Yeah, and Arazni can do that too along with being an ex-Herald Lich Wizard 20/Marshal 8.
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Also about him doing stuff that an ordinary wizard can't do, I wonder if there is some spell that might let him do stuff outside of his class, like wish?I wouldn't allow a PC to conquer an entire country in one night with a single wish spell. What many GM's and Players forget that Wishs granted by the 9th level spell DO have a finite guideline for power. Also whatever Razmir may be, it's also known that he has divine sponsorship of some sort.
That? Where does it say anything about hime conquering Xer in a single day? Because it's not it the ISWG or anything else I could find. You keep claiming stuff in this thread without any factual support whatsoever.
Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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I've always wondered, if a god can return life to a mortal why does everyone assume that a god has to stay dead...Presumably because of all of the gods that have died.. and there've been quite a few of them.... none of them have come back?
If it takes more than an ordinary raise dead, or ressurrection to raise an outsider, imagine what might be required to raise a god.
I would phrase it as none that we know of have come back yet. Considering how much gods such as Desna change between Tien and Avistan, it wouldn't be that difficult for a being with God like powers to assume a slightly different image while still being true to their domains and purpose.
I would imagine it would take God-like powers to raise a god. Even if we ignore Iomodea, there is a prophecy that would be much easier to fulfill if Arden were 'alive' and active.
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Until I looked in the book he was the highest I could think of, I definitely didn't claim the highest, though 20 Wizard/6 Archmage is pretty damn high. And admittedly I didn't count in things like former Heralds of Aroden (Arazni) and Baba Yaga. Nice to see some of them as I may end up making use of them in the future.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Wait, so does the 'devotee of a dead god' trait provide any benefit in PFS or not? Does it create an exception to the rule that you cannot worship Aroden? Does the exception extend to other feats/spells/items that require you to have a deity?
Nope. In the absence of a clarification from campaign staff, devotee of a dead god is just a dead trait.
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Time travel. That is what this season is all about.[conspiracy theory]Aroden's alignment is currently NE, but most people call him Norgorber.[/theory]Maybe. But Norgorber ascended in 1893 AR. Aroden disappeared in 4606 AR.
It was until someone came back from the future to tell us that was a bad idea.
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It was until someone came back from the future to tell us that was a bad idea.Time travel. That is what this season is all about.[conspiracy theory]Aroden's alignment is currently NE, but most people call him Norgorber.[/theory]Maybe. But Norgorber ascended in 1893 AR. Aroden disappeared in 4606 AR.
It usually is.
On the up side, my future self has much more fame and prestige than my current self, so getting raised from the dead is never an issue.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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It was until someone came back from the future to tell us that was a bad idea.Time travel. That is what this season is all about.[conspiracy theory]Aroden's alignment is currently NE, but most people call him Norgorber.[/theory]Maybe. But Norgorber ascended in 1893 AR. Aroden disappeared in 4606 AR.
Since when has that stopped us?
Also xkcd
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It's mentioned somewhere that he's getting support from Sivanah, I don't remember where though.That? Where does it say anything about hime conquering Xer in a single day? Because it's not it the ISWG or anything else I could find. You keep claiming stuff in this thread without any factual support whatsoever.Also about him doing stuff that an ordinary wizard can't do, I wonder if there is some spell that might let him do stuff outside of his class, like wish?I wouldn't allow a PC to conquer an entire country in one night with a single wish spell. What many GM's and Players forget that Wishs granted by the 9th level spell DO have a finite guideline for power. Also whatever Razmir may be, it's also known that he has divine sponsorship of some sort.
Yeah, that was in ISG. I was mainly talking about the conquering Xer in a day.
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Ah, missed that the first time I read that section, my bad. A city is not a country though. Worship of Razmir had spread pretty far into the country and he had already conquered the city of Xer before he took out the capital. With ninth level spells razing a city seems pretty doable. It's still impreesive though. My point about wish earlier was concerning him being able to demonstrate divine power, he can just wish for a divine spell. Expensive, but when you're taking over a country it's pretty manageable. As a small nitpick, you discounted others earlier because they had divine backing, then brought up Sivanah's sponsorship of Razmir.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Razmir isn't powerful, he's definitely on the top end of the power curve in Golarion. I'm just saying that he isn't alone up there.
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[conspiracy theory]Aroden's alignment is currently NE, but most people call him Norgorber.[/theory]
My theory is that Norgorber is an entire party of evil characters that did the Test of the Starstone together, and that each of his "aspects" is actually a different person.
My personal preference is that Tar-Baphon had something to do with his old rival Arosen's death.
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Wouldn't cancer be a fairly simple issue to deal with? Remove Disease is a fairly powerful spell, especially from a high level caster...
Boy, wouldn't it be a klunker for Razmir to have been 'The Dying God' all this time and not have known it.
"Congratulations, Raz, you're actually a deity! You never knew that, did you? Well, bad news. You've got cancer and you've got three centuries to live. Sorry, man."
Ah, but it's not on the sorc/wiz list. Now that'd be interesting quest for him, curing the cancer without involving someone who might rat your non-divinity out.