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The Walkers from the Crypt ePub:
I've always been curious about Galt since I started reading about the Inner Sea, and although I haven't got to play there yet I'm looking forward to doing so, especially with Ultimate Intrigue on the way. Who knows, maybe an AP in Galt is in the works...anyway, I don't know if this series is going to stay there, but I hope it does.
I thought the characters made a good team - paladin, ranger, bard, wizard - decently balanced, a nice contrast of personalities as well. I tried to place how experienced they were, and they seem to be varied.
At first I thought Stelan was higher level, but he wasn't able to use remove disease on Vallyn, which puts him below 5th level, or has an archetype that substitute that ability. It could've actually been poison, as Elyana said, but I don't know of any undead dogs that have poisonous bite, so maybe she was just guessing? It's also possible Stelan isn't a paladin, perhaps just a fighter who worships Abadar, although that's unclear since we only saw him in action early on. I put Elyana at least an 8th level, casting two cure spells on Vallyn, who seems the least experienced of the group. Like Stelan, he was out of the story before long, so it's hard to say how capable he is, especially since most standard bard abilities are ineffectual against undead, as noted by Arcil, who I think is at least 5th, casting several fireball spells, or maybe even 7th level, or about to be, as he mentioned wanting to learn the black tentacles spell. Lastly, Mirelle...I'm not sure if is going to be a part of this group as, as rescuing her from Galt was their mission, and her skills - if any - weren't apparent, but maybe she'll stay on and we'll learn more about her later,
All in all, it was a good establishing story and I'm curious to see how the characters develop individually and as a group. Time to open up Plague of Shadows and find out...
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I really am at something of a loss for words! I didn't know about the Walkers in the Crypt E-pub, and probably even more strangely have taken the complete reverse to reading it, having started Elyana's story with Stalking the Beast, reading about the Verduran Forest in Crusader's Road, then reading Plague of Shadows and finally coming to the e-pub here. I had a looooot of bits or lore sliding around in my head as I read this; at the end when they all clicked into place I sat there just had to think for a while. It was pretty exciting!
First off, I guess I have to come out and say that I really enjoyed Walkers in the Crypt and it's something that makes me sad to see the e-pub stuff getting the axe. If I haven't said it in the past, DB, I want to say it now; thanks for setting up and doing the Pathfinder Book Club every week. I guarantee that I would not have dug through the archives in the hopes of finding something linked to one of the Pathfinder Tales I'd picked up. This was such fantastic material as well, for many of the reasons you listed above: it's a balanced party, with individually unique characters, and they all have their own agendas. And are also of varying degrees of power, and faced with situations that pull on all of their strengths. It makes for a great set-up and keeps the story interesting in a way that has me reading every page of each battle scene, instead of yawning and skipping to the end (which can happen with other books where I am not the least bit concerned about the characters surviving)(or interested in their very, very loose interpretations of the system's rules).
I guess I am also curious as to how people react to the book itself, as some things will be immediately apparent after the opening chapters. I don't mind that I have read things out of order, but I also recognize that it's created a very different experience for me where I saw Elyana at, imo, her most BA self and then worked backwards through her character development, as opposed to moving forward through it and seeing her change from this e-pub into what she becomes later on.
Something else that amused me about Elyana in Walkers from the Crpyt is that she continues to demonstrate here her extremely unfortunate habit of leaving monstrous and depraved enemies alive after she defeats them. It is something that plagues her in both books I've read of her and now I find myself hoping that this Galtan necromancer shows up at some point in the future to bite her in the ass, just like every other person she (undeservedly) spares has done. As much as I like her as one of my favoritest ranger characters in a long time, the gal's gotta learn st some point to finish the job!
I hope it's alright to suddenly pop up in the book club. I've been reading Dave Gross' Radovan and the Count books and just recently started to branch out. When I saw the PTBC, I used that as my means to really branch out to tales and books that I hadn't planned on reading.
And I'm glad that I did! I really like this tale and am very interested in reading the future adventures of Elyana. This was a very good read and I love how the politics of Galt was introduced. I obviously haven't read any other of Elyana and team's adventures but it would be nice to learn more about Galt.
I did have a weird quibble - when Elyana is healing Vallyn, she obviously casts her Cure spell twice "because the first time wasn't enough". What seemed weird to me was that I just got a feeling of a player saying "I cast Cure and roll 6HP, so I'll cast it a 2nd time." Not really distracting but just something I hadn't thought of in the other Tales I've read.
I was very interested in the romance between the elf Elyana and the paladin/fighter Stelan. Her winsome thought about losing him to old age when he left with Vallyn made me want to know more about their relationship. I'm not sure that I'm sold on the aloof Arcil, but that is probably a nod to the author who intended to make him a bit pompous but able to come through when stuff hit the fan.
I too am looking forward to Plague of Shadows, but I have to fit it in with my current reading of Queen of Thorns. :)
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I had a loooot of bits or lore sliding around in my head as I read this; at the end when they all clicked into place I sat there just had to think for a while. It was pretty exciting!
That’s one of the main reasons why I started reading Pathfinder Tales, I really enjoy making those connections, and they inspire me to imbed my characters similarly in the games I play.
If I haven't said it in the past, DB, I want to say it now; thanks for setting up and doing the Pathfinder Book Club every week. I guarantee that I would not have dug through the archives in the hopes of finding something linked to one of the Pathfinder Tales I'd picked up.
You’re very welcome, that means a lot, it’s been a pleasure. I’ve enjoyed these books that much more by sharing with everyone, and learned a lot from other perspectives that I wouldn’t have considered otherwise. Back when we dove into James Sutter’s novels, I wouldn’t have known about the ePubs either until someone mentioned there was one that took place before Death’s Heretic, so the PTBC gave me ePubs too!
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I hope it's alright to suddenly pop up in the book club. When I saw the PTBC, I used that as my means to really branch out to tales and books that I hadn't planned on reading.
Although the name may suggest it, the PTBC is not a club (at least not in the exclusive sense) so everyone is welcome!
I did have a weird quibble - when Elyana is healing Vallyn, she obviously casts her Cure spell twice "because the first time wasn't enough". What seemed weird to me was that I just got a feeling of a player saying "I cast Cure and roll 6HP, so I'll cast it a 2nd time."
I hear what you’re saying, but I actually liked that. Rangers aren’t very efficient healers until they get to mid-level, but perhaps it wasn’t an HP thing, and Vallyn’s wounds were grievous enough (critical hit?) that one CLW spell, no matter what was rolled, was enough to get him back in fighting shape.
But even if it was an actual HP thing, I kind of like it for that reason too. Sure, it may take away from the natural feel of the story if those things creep in too much, but for me it adds to its authenticity since the story takes place in a game world. In previous discussions I’ve picked on some loose interpretations of the rules, but in the end that’s doesn’t make or break a story for me, it’s just part of the fun drawing tangents from the writing to game mechanics, and vice versa.I too am looking forward to Plague of Shadows, but I have to fit it in with my current reading of Queen of Thorns.
I'd also like to get into the Dave Gross novels, I've heard many, many good things. Perhaps the PTBC will be going there some time this winter, so don't feel pressured to read all of his books right away, because there may be plenty of time for that coming up soon...
I am a little mixed on Elyana's healing. On the one hand, I agree with DB in that it is really cool to see the mechanics in play in the book and it's like "oh dang this is so awesome that they rely on a little bit of party healing through her"; you can figure out party roles, get a sense that what she prays for each day is the ability to save her allies, etc. On the other hand I can see it being pretty blunt and almost jarring, especially if what happens to me sometimes happens to other people, where I read it and I immediately start critiquing the party composition or things like "oh my god Elyana poison is the bane of every ranger's existence how do you not have some sort of either herb lore or antidote vials handy?!"
But overall I appreciate it either way. I think it's really fun how these books let you engage with a rough-strokes mechanical outline of what happened.
So I am really curious - what did people think of the first few chapters of Plague of Shadows? It is both rather familiar and VERY different from what the ePub made the story out to be.
Personally, I found the time jump to be a neat mechanic that doesn't get a whole lot of attention in most DnD games. Much like Ursula K. Leguin's Earthsea series, where she shows the main characters at several very different decades of their lives, or Janny Wurts Wars of Light and Shadow series where the protagonists' extended lifespan means that they're interacting with the grandchildren of the characters in the first book, Elyana's long life changes drastically in the space of a (relatively) few short decades. I really, really enjoy diving into the flavor of this type of character trait and nothing emphasizes the... perils of navigating it more than Elyana opening with "oh btw Stefan is an old man now and his son is getting close to the same age he was when we started being an item." How have those of you who weren't aware of this before reading the ePub reacted? This isn't quite like "oh we're being showed a character who has aged and changed and is at a different decade of their life" - it's more just that she's a step out of time and everything else changes around her...
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Damn, Arcil wasted NO time breaking bad since we last saw him. Looks like he learned that black tentacles spell well enough…
At first, I was surprised that the story takes place over twenty years after The Walkers from the Crypt, but the clever interludes succeeded in bringing me back to the timeline I was expecting, and I probably appreciate them more due to reading the ePub prior.
It also serves to compare and contrast Elyana’s adventuring parties, past and present. She and Vallyn are obviously more experienced than before, Kellius seems to be as potent a spellcaster as Arcil was, although his demeanor is a polar opposite, and Drelm is a good rough and tough stand-in for Stelan, whose son Renar could be likened to Edak, tousled hair and all. I, too, liked how Elyana considers Stelan and Renar, and how her longevity gives her a unique perspective to them that is typically indescribable to people with short lifespans. However, I think her connection with Renar isn't as much how he reminds her of Stelan in his youth, but maybe sees him as the son she could/should/would have had with Stelan if she never let him go.
On that note, what does everyone think of Lenelle?
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The next third of the novel continued with the same fast pace as the first, and so many things have happened that it bodes well for the last third to be just as thrilling. Without conflict and there is no drama, and there is plenty of that. Then throw in highly dangerous locales with a time table to boot and you really end up with the high stakes pressure that is the recipe for bringing out the best in a protagonist.
Picking up where we left off, we got the calm before the storm in Galt, a little pleasure before pain, followed by yet another pursuit from the Gray Gardeners. (Elyana really does have a knack for collecting enemies.) I thought that was going to play out a lot longer, that perhaps Elyana would devise a plan to ambush them, maybe take back her ring, but instead we encountered Elistia . I saw this as a nice juxtaposition for Elyana, as Alavar takes interest in her humanlike qualities in a in a similar way how we discussed her regarding Stelan and Renar.
Onto the Vale of Shadows: Not only do the interludes continue to be a great use of flashbacks that tie into the theme of the story, but they also serve as foreshadowing (no pun intended) to what I presume she will inevitably face against Arcil. His obsession grows deeper with each one, and despite that we know it's coming, his sinister turn is kept interesting by the little bits we learn about him here and there. By avoiding the commonly used scenes that render the reader omniscient by showing antagonists reveling in all of their evil glory, we are instead kept just as much in the dark (again no pun intended) as Elyana. We don’t know exactly where he is, what sort of his defenses or allies he has employed, what his true agenda is, or how much he knows, such as whether or not he knows that Elyana destroyed the statue he was after and that its secrets now lie only with her. All we know now at this point is that aside from a powerful wizard who has likely been manipulating Elyana from the start, she is in a very dangerous place with very powerful planar creatures abound [R.I.P. Kellius] and now she is all alone...
That Renar is a reminder of what she could have had is a really good point. I couldn't decide which it might be, and for a moment at his introduction almost thought she HAD born Stelan a son (what with "his mother's narrow face and high cheekbones" and all).
I liked Lenelle. I thought it was one of those nicely humanizing pieces that shows the characters deal with more than just the sword and board fighting. Even more importantly, it was done in a way that is markedly different from the fantasy norm, which typically either retreat to the bland "they're just enemies" or else fall prey to the "narrator explains how they all feel without actually showing them act on those feelings" (recently I just finished reading a ton of ra salvatore's books and his most common way of interacting is "person A looked into person B's eyes and saw everything that person B was feeling and thinking and realized the hurt so reflected their entire thoughts back at person B who instantly understood what was going on and they reached silent agreement" - it was a marked turn to switch to rereading Plague of Shadows!).
You know, in reflection I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the ePub was set twenty years earlier since the whole book hinges pretty significantly on switching back and forth to deliver plot. DB, I was curious to see what you thought of this as a mechanic? I mean in theory the story could have started with Elyana two decades prior, and all these reveals count as their own book. Then we could have read Plague of Shadows as this thing, as its own entirely separate story. Was there enough there to support two different stories? Or is it more interesting to have this full introduction to two separate parts of Elyana's life at one time?
Picking up where we left off, we got the calm before the storm in Galt, a little pleasure before pain, followed by yet another pursuit from the Gray Gardeners. (Elyana really does have a knack for collecting enemies.) I thought that was going to play out a lot longer, that perhaps Elyana would devise a plan to ambush them, maybe take back her ring, but instead we encountered Elistia . I saw this as a nice juxtaposition for Elyana, as Alavar takes interest in her humanlike qualities in a in a similar way how we discussed her regarding Stelan and Renar.
Elyana literally never, ever goes back for anything. It's this theme that I don't know whether to admire in terms of a writer showing subtle characterization or hate because as a reader it REALLY gets under my skin!
Onto the Vale of Shadows: Not only do the interludes continue to be a great use of flashbacks that tie into the theme of the story, but they also serve as foreshadowing (no pun intended) to what I presume she will inevitably face against Arcil. His obsession grows deeper with each one, and despite that we know it's coming, his sinister turn is kept interesting by the little bits we learn about him here and there. By avoiding the commonly used scenes that render the reader omniscient by showing antagonists reveling in all of their evil glory, we are instead kept just as much in the dark (again no pun intended) as Elyana. We don’t know exactly where he is, what sort of his defenses or allies he has employed, what his true agenda is, or how much he knows, such as whether or not he knows that Elyana destroyed the statue he was after and that its secrets now lie only with her. All we know now at this point is that aside from a powerful wizard who has likely been manipulating Elyana from the start, she is in a very dangerous place with very...
Another interesting facet is that the elves are portrayed as in full command of their surroundings, protected by numerous magical wards, guards, and a wizard-lord all tucked safely away in an ancient elven keep. Compared to the chaos and discord of Galt (and even the relative backwater quality of Stelan's keep), it really illustrates the difference between the worlds of a forlorn elf like Elyana and the Kyonin/Castrovel-born elves of the larger majority of the race.
Also, speaking of scenes that don't involve the villain cackling with glee - I think it adds a LOT to the story to keep it narrowed to Elyana's perspective! The tension is far more real, and she reads like a woodsy elf who looks at magic and is just like "well that spell sure happened."
Also out of curiosity, DB, what do you think of the use of character death in this part of the story? A number of characters die in flashbacks - whether it's one of the twins or another member of the old-timey party, or whether it's Kellius (who doesn't even get the benefit of a hero-death - rather he is just straight-chomped in the surprise round). Do you think they add to the story in these cases? I ask in the sense of ... I don't know, "heroicness" I suppose, as opposed to ... something else I guess.
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I liked Lenelle. I thought it was one of those nicely humanizing pieces that shows the characters deal with more than just the sword and board fighting. Even more importantly, it was done in a way that is markedly different from the fantasy norm, which typically either retreat to the bland "they're just enemies" or else fall prey to the "narrator explains how they all feel without actually showing them act on those feelings" (recently I just finished reading a ton of ra salvatore's books and his most common way of interacting is "person A looked into person B's eyes and saw everything that person B was feeling and thinking and realized the hurt so reflected their entire thoughts back at person B who instantly understood what was going on and they reached silent agreement" - it was a marked turn to switch to rereading Plague of Shadows!).
I didn't know what to think about Lenelle at first. I tried to see things from her point of view, about how intimidating it must be for her husband to have once (or - worse - still) love Elyana, an adventurer who has seen and done so many things that Lenelle has no way to fully comprehend. Plus, Elyana being so close to Renar was almost insult to injury. All that led me down the path that maybe Lenelle was in on it, that she was a part of this whole plot to get Elyana out of their lives forever, but that faded soon enough. As we all know, relationships are tested when former lovers come around, and this case is no different.
You know, in reflection I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the ePub was set twenty years earlier since the whole book hinges pretty significantly on switching back and forth to deliver plot. DB, I was curious to see what you thought of this as a mechanic? I mean in theory the story could have started with Elyana two decades prior, and all these reveals count as their own book. Then we could have read Plague of Shadows as this thing, as its own entirely separate story. Was there enough there to support two different stories? Or is it more interesting to have this full introduction to two separate parts of Elyana's life at one time?
It totally worked for me, mechanically and otherwise. It broke the linearity of the story, but somehow brought out the linearity of the characters. Also, doing it in this manner kept the through-line of the story more condensed than adding them all up chronologically then cutting it all in half. Let's look at it from two perspectives:
#1) If the ePub and interludes had their own combined story, there would have to be a lot more exposition to for us to get to know the other characters - Edak, the twins, Nadara - which would have slowed what I thought was great pacing to a novel. Some drag more than others, but this one didn't for me, and that was because of the interludes that I looked forward to every few chapters. To me, they served better as subplots to reinforce the main plot, and as subtext to the main characters that made their emotional ties more dramatic due to the lapse of time.
#2) If the overall story was presented after all the subplots in the ePub and interludes, it would've just jumped from her adventuring group in the past to her adventuring group in the present, which is fine, but we lose the reflection that Elyana has given us through this mechanic to parallel the representation of her longevity as discussed earlier. Some may have seen it coming sooner than others, but the whole character arc of Arcil wouldn't have been picked up on even more prematurely if all of the bits and pieces weren't spaced as they were until the end.
Basically, we got two stories for the price of one (and an ePub) that got to where it was going in a more expedient and efficient manner. As I've gushed about several times during Nightglass and Nightblade, I love Nidal and everything about it. But even though a standalone story with the shadowcasters the umbral dragon could've been great, not only did I feel like it was unnecessary to develop the plot, it also could've compromised its structure and took an interesting element away from the dynamic of the characters.
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Another interesting facet is that the elves are portrayed as in full command of their surroundings, protected by numerous magical wards, guards, and a wizard-lord all tucked safely away in an ancient elven keep. Compared to the chaos and discord of Galt (and even the relative backwater quality of Stelan's keep), it really illustrates the difference between the worlds of a forlorn elf like Elyana and the Kyonin/Castrovel-born elves of the larger majority of the race.
I don't care how often this is used - in just about every campaign setting (sans Dark Sun) - I will always be a fan of elven culture being portrayed in this manner. There was one passage that really resonated with me: the scene where they discover that Aliel had died, about how the elves "would mourn her passing long after there was nothing left of Renar but dry bones." Wow. I felt for his loss...young love ending in such a horrific way...Aliel was so adorable too. She may have been 4 or 5 times his age, but she was still so young at heart. One would think that a long-lives species would be less vibrant with life because...well, what's the rush, right? But no. Not just in Aliel, but elven culture as a whole. In almost every single way, it should serve as a reflection of humanity, about what it could be instead of what it actually is, and with such a disparity. Sadly, most humans only care about who they are and what they do during their own lifetime, but the best of them - come to think of it - think more like elves. That's likely why Elyana loves Stelan the way she does, because he truly cared about his land and legacy - and none of that had to do with control or greed or power. It was a pure, an example of the best that humanity has to offer, to the extent that that he had to forsake their feelings for each other because, unlike all of those other things, that wouldn't last forever. For for either of them.
Also, speaking of scenes that don't involve the villain cackling with glee - I think it adds a LOT to the story to keep it narrowed to Elyana's perspective! The tension is far more real, and she reads like a woodsy elf who looks at magic and is just like "well that spell sure happened."
Yes, exactly! The entire story being told through her POV was a crucial element to its telling. It holds back everything until the right moment where we need it to be, no matter which moment in time the story is at.
Also out of curiosity, DB, what do you think of the use of character death in this part of the story? A number of characters die in flashbacks - whether it's one of the twins or another member of the old-timey party, or whether it's Kellius (who doesn't even get the benefit of a hero-death - rather he is just straight-chomped in the surprise round). Do you think they add to the story in these cases? I ask in the sense of ... I don't know, "heroicness" I suppose, as opposed to ... something else I guess.
I think it keeps the story gritty. A tragic death has just as much impact as a heroic one, and - once again - furthers the longevity issue. Elyana has seen SO many of her friends and loved ones die. Of course there's also the theory that space was needed for Arcil to join the group (two wizards in the same group has almost always led to trouble in my experience) or, on the other hand, it may have been to restore balance since two wizards also allow more options for the group to get out of trouble, and removing one makes obstacles in story more challenging again. Either way, I didn't mind it. Adventurers die. I actually prefer that to every single person miraculously living after defying impossible odds. [The game sure doesn't work that way...]
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So the last third of this novel totally got me. What did everyone else think about how it all wrapped up?
I never imagined Elyana and Arcil would ever be on the same side again, nor for him to been a lich this whole time! Pardon the metagaming, but he may not be truly dead since a lich can't be permanently destroyed without having it's phylactery destroyed too, so maybe we'll see him again in Stalking the Beast...
So let's get started on that for next week, from Chapters One through Eight. Let's see how Elyana and Drelm fare, with or without any more traitorous friends from their past...
I just got done from a weekend of hardcore pathfinding. Let me organize my thoughts DB 'cause I really would like to keep the discussion going here throughout the week!
I thought these chapters more than anything exemplified Elyana's nearly frighting ability to mind-wipe herself and walk away from any and all tragedy whatsoever. On the one hand, it makes for a very realistic character, and I am intrigued because if she were male I think it'd be considered "the norm" and I wonder if it would actually get acknowledged as being as crippling as it is. On the other hand... it was these chapters that were like a bucket of ice water on the enjoyment I had for her.
Now, I started with Stalking the Beast because I'd read some positive reviews way back when I was first starting to read Pathfinder Tales books. Elyana quickly cemented herself as one of the most BA rangers I have ever read about, in part because she does so much with so very little. There's no magical artifacts or innate spells, she doesn't have the gods watching over her, she's just one woman and she manages to hold the line beautifully. And she also has this very real, very human quality to her that, yeah - she's not warm. She's not very friendly, and she's really damaged pretty badly. Like Salim, she's a person who can care very deeply, but really, really seems to struggle putting it out there. Also, struggles with any sort of hardship.
Prior to reading the last chapters of this book, I would have cheered to have Elyana on my team and accepted her in a heartbeat. Lawlz, even if she really really does. not. learn. TO FINISH THE KILL OMG.
But as frustrating as that is (especially when it's a bad guy who is an explicitly evil murderer who also personally caused the deaths of her elf friends AND her animal companion), I think it was reading her reaction to Edak's death that set me back on my heels and made me be like "... wow. I would not touch you with a ten foot pole, much less party with you." Like, it didn't seem to me like she cared one whit. I get that it might have been her way of accepting loss and immediately forgetting about any attachment she might have had to the person kicking in, but the fact that she just hand-waved his murder and rolled on with her life, seeming to not spare a single thought to the fact that an evil wizard just snuffed out her teammate's life... It was cold. I mean, again, on the one hand I get that it's her way of dealing with things, I really do, but now I can't help but feel that if her party got killed and it was up to her to save the day/avenge the team, she'd just shrug and be like "welp I guess that's over. bye." and roll on with her new life. Moreover, it has this "unreliable" quality that made me take three steps back and be like "holy cow, you are significantly damaged, lady." And not in a way that I felt was sympathetic, but rather it makes me wonder if she is as warm as she sometimes seems to be and isn't instead just completely empty inside, playing at being hero when she is truly just straight-up ice cold.
I dunno, I mean, I am struggling to reconcile my thoughts on her after this book. I kind of am two minds - on the one hand, she's done some things that make me really struggle with viewing her as a heroine, I think in part because she doesn't seem to move anywhere closer to solving any of her problems (for example, her character is the same at the start of this book and at the end, having learned nothing along the way). The other half of me also does see those moments where she is everything I'd expect a heroine to be and exactly what I love reading about. Which is the real Elyana? Is there a "real" Elyana? I finished it a month ago and I'm still mulling it over.
What are your thoughts on any of that, DB? I'd appreciate hearing your own take on her actions, her relationships (to both present teammates and the past ones) and the book's ending. Do you see another facet that I don't? I like hearing from you because you're usually a bit more generous with characters than I am and it's nice to get a counterpoint. And, to be clear, I DO think that she is an extremely well-written character, whose deep-seated flaw (her inability to retain any attachment once that thing leaves her possession) is very, VERY well shown in an almost masterful way throughout the entire series (in the ePub, as well as the two Tales books). I mean, it starts with the tiny stuff, like her old relationship with Stelan or the trophy, and gets larger and larger - a ring of shadow walk that she'd worn for the last 35 years gets a "oh well." Old friends, her horse, adventuring companions, until finally she boxes up that entire section of her life and sets it aside at the end, forgetting everything - it's a genuinely inspired way of letting the reader know from start to finish that this is who Elyana is.
Aaaaand I don't know how I feel about it as a character trait :P
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I thought these chapters more than anything exemplified Elyana's nearly frighting ability to mind-wipe herself and walk away from any and all tragedy whatsoever. On the one hand, it makes for a very realistic character, and I am intrigued because if she were male I think it'd be considered "the norm" and I wonder if it would actually get acknowledged as being as crippling as it is. On the other hand... it was these chapters that were like a bucket of ice water on the enjoyment I had for her.
Perhaps that’s yet another byproduct of her elven nature, that things will resolve themselves in time, or perhaps she has contingencies in mind that’s not communicated to the reader due to the narrative style, etc. Or…perhaps she really is just a carefree/careless adventurer...
Now, I started with Stalking the Beast because I'd read some positive reviews way back when I was first starting to read Pathfinder Tales books. Elyana quickly cemented herself as one of the most BA rangers I have ever read about, in part because she does so much with so very little. There's no magical artifacts or innate spells, she doesn't have the gods watching over her, she's just one woman and she manages to hold the line beautifully. And she also has this very real, very human quality to her that, yeah - she's not warm. She's not very friendly, and she's really damaged pretty badly. Like Salim, she's a person who can care very deeply, but really, really seems to struggle putting it out there. Also, struggles with any sort of hardship.
I think you have her spot on. Aside from the Ring that allowed her to Shadow Walk early on in PoS, then later with the relics that helped her survive the sole encounter with the umbral dragon, she’s had no help in the magic item department. Perhaps we’ll find out in StB if her bow is enchanted, but as of right now I see her blasting through combats with just a masterwork composite, which I think gives her even more street cred as a BA ranger, haha. Also, without all the “tricks of the trade” that most PCs have at the same level, maybe that’s why she leaves so many things open – because she has no means to close them? [In the game, I’ve felt this frustration many times after enemies get away because our group wasn’t able to bring them down quickly enough, or prepared to stop them from escaping on foot in open terrain, alternate modes of movement, or via magic.] Perhaps Elyana struggles with this too, as all she has is a bow, a blade, and a handful of low-level spells to get her through the day.
Prior to reading the last chapters of this book, I would have cheered to have Elyana on my team and accepted her in a heartbeat. Lawlz, even if she really really does. not. learn. TO FINISH THE KILL OMG. But as frustrating as that is (especially when it's a bad guy who is an explicitly evil murderer who also personally caused the deaths of her elf friends AND her animal companion), I think it was reading her reaction to Edak's death that set me back on my heels and made me be like "... wow. I would not touch you with a ten foot pole, much less party with you." Like, it didn't seem to me like she cared one whit. I get that it might have been her way of accepting loss and immediately forgetting about any attachment she might have had to the person kicking in, but the fact that she just hand-waved his murder and rolled on with her life, seeming to not spare a single thought to the fact that an evil wizard just snuffed out her teammate's life... It was cold. I mean, again, on the one hand I get that it's her way of dealing with things, I really do, but now I can't help but feel that if her party got killed and it was up to her to save the day/avenge the team, she'd just shrug and be like "welp I guess that's over. bye." and roll on with her new life. Moreover, it has this "unreliable" quality that made me take three steps back and be like "holy cow, you are significantly damaged, lady." And not in a way that I felt was sympathetic, but rather it makes me wonder if she is as warm as she sometimes seems to be and isn't instead just completely empty inside, playing at being hero when she is truly just straight-up ice cold.
Maybe she’s not a hero. You’re right, she sure doesn’t seem like one at times, but maybe that’s the point because she doesn’t necessarily think she’s one either. On one hand, if she let every human death affect her as profoundly as it does with them, then she’d just be super depressed all the time. On the other hand, if it’s one of her friends she should definitely do something about it. Regarding [TWIN] being killed by Arcil, that’s a whole other conundrum – what was she do to, draw steel and kill Arcil right then and there just before her lover’s wedding? (Wow, that’s sounds even more awful condensed like that.) That’s rough. So…what would you put her alignment at?
I dunno, I mean, I am struggling to reconcile my thoughts on her after this book. I kind of am two minds - on the one hand, she's done some things that make me really struggle with viewing her as a heroine, I think in part because she doesn't seem to move anywhere closer to solving any of her problems (for example, her character is the same at the start of this book and at the end, having learned nothing along the way). The other half of me also does see those moments where she is everything I'd expect a heroine to be and exactly what I love reading about. Which is the real Elyana? Is there a "real" Elyana? I finished it a month ago and I'm still mulling it over.
I don’ t know about that. Stelan was cursed in the beginning and now he’s not, so her primary objective was completed, and she did learn a lot about Arcil since they last saw each other after he killed [TWIN], leaving her to finally put him and Vallyn behind her once and for all, so that’s something. And now she has Drelm. I wonder if that’s going to become a thing now. As odd a couple as that could be, as elves and orcs do not traditionally share anything even resembling love for one another, I could almost see it working. He’s like Stelan in many ways – a tough fighter, worshipper of Abadar, loyal to the core – and although he is REALLY rough around the edges, I think he has a good heart despite his bloodline.
I like hearing from you because you're usually a bit more generous with characters than I am and it's nice to get a counterpoint. And, to be clear, I DO think that she is an extremely well-written character, whose deep-seated flaw (her inability to retain any attachment once that thing leaves her possession) is very, VERY well shown in an almost masterful way throughout the entire series (in the ePub, as well as the two Tales books). I mean, it starts with the tiny stuff, like her old relationship with Stelan or the trophy, and gets larger and larger - a ring of shadow walk that she'd worn for the last 35 years gets a "oh well." Old friends, her horse, adventuring companions, until finally she boxes up that entire section of her life and sets it aside at the end, forgetting everything - it's a genuinely inspired way of letting the reader know from start to finish that this is who Elyana is.
Yes, I have been known to be very generous with characters, some more than others, but that’s only because I think they (and their creators) deserve it. A part of why I love Pathfinder Tales is because not only do we get to see so many different characters, we also get to see the viewpoints from so many different authors. But just like playing with different GMs and players, for better or worse, I’ve found it to be good practice look more at the positive side of things, if only to take those things with me and incorporate them into my game as GM or as a player. However, that doesn’t mean I’m not looking at the characters, plot, and structure of a plot any less critically. In fact, I can say that if Plague of Shadows was a module and I was playing Elyana as a PC, I may have made different decisions, not because I don’t agree with what she did, but because my instincts as a player may have done an injustice to the depth written into her character, and she wouldn't have been played properly. So -yes- I have some issues with a few of the things that she did or didn’t do and -yes- she has flaws, yet I appreciate them, as frustrating as they may be, because at the end of the day she wouldn’t be Elyana if she was any different, and despite it all I still like her as a character. [But will someone please give the poor girl a magic bow for Stalking the Beast? Thank you...]
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It's been a lot of fun sitting back and watching the discussion. I've wanted to pop in and comment several times now, but I thought it might be best if I waited until you'd finished discussing the first book.
It seems like you found a lot in the story that I hope readers will find. I'm especially pleased that you saw Elyana's complexity, and her tendencies to let things go.
As to magic -- as a GM, I've always preferred low magic settings. I grew up reading (and re-reading) sword-and-sorcery originators like Robert E. Howard and Fritz Leiber, which is why I still lean on the side of lower magic item availability and casting, and almost no magical healing.
Likewise, because of my personal preferences, when I run Pathfinder I don't run the game with the default settings "as is;" rather I dial down on magical availability of things, and I significantly downplay the sorcerous ability of character classes like rangers. (I also make magical healing far more rare.) For novel writing purpose I dialed available magic up a little more towards the default setting, but, honestly, Elyana is still using fewer spells than she probably would be for a character her level, which is why I decided she's probably mutliclassed with Fighter. And probably there ought to be more magic lying about... but I just don't like that as much.
My own mindset on this is also why Elyana's not tricked out with a whole lot of magical gewgaws. Also, part of the tendency of hers to just let stuff be is my own fondness for Greek myth. When those heroes were done with a magical item it just vanished from the tale and they had to go find a new one, or, more often, manage without it.
I do try to keep close watch on how spells and rules work, and James and the team are good at keeping me on track there, as well as giving me leave to invent weird monsters. (I think at least one I cooked up in PoS turned up in a Bestiary later.) Anyway, while I do try to play to the rules, I try to craft the story first, and where there's a collision between story and rule story wins out.
I am not a great "fine-grain sandpaper" GM, because I tend to forget about multiple layers of rules or even grow frustrated with them. I've always been more about the story, and I believe decades of GMing various games, starting with 2nd edition D&D helped me develop my writing chops. When I run Pathfinder I tend to lean on another gamer friend when we come to upper level combat because I end up spending too much time flipping back and forth in rule books, which slows down the story. There are probably a number of rules that I'm not completely aware of, so I was pleased that one reviewer saw one of the plot developments in Stalking the Beast as rising naturally because of some rule or other that I hadn't remembered. It's great when those sorts of things seem planned...
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Mr. Howard Andrew Jones! It was great to meet you at GenCon, and thank you for your words of wisdom. I feel like I know Elyana better just from your comments, and the low magic settings make perfect sense now.
Although I take some pride in being the quartermaster of my group, a part of me always feels just a little bit strange about being able to sell off all different kinds of loot regardless of supply and demand, then going "shopping" for anything and everything that has a GP value to try and survive our next adventure. I'd actually like to try low magic settings in a game, if only for the challenge of playing a character that relied purely on her skills rather than depending on her tools, similar to Elyana. [I hope you know I was being facetious about giving her a magic bow...]
Well, shall we? Onto the next novel by Howard Andrew Jones:
Whoops, I forgot to reply to your comments DB! I know we try to keep moving but I don't want to leave you hanging either.
For one thing, I'd really like to keep the discussion on "low magic" and "availability" going in the next book, because imo it plays an even more significant role there. The other aspect of this is that it does make it... different to try and reconcile, then, all the different viewpoints that exist regarding magic and magical availability. There's "low magic" in terms of "there aren't magical items but there are a plethora of casters", low magic in terms of "people with magical ability are rare and special" (which can grind the gears of people who prefer class balance and feel that gives unfair stage-time to classes that already hog a significant amount of the light in other DnD-related material), and then on top of those there's the fact that all of these pathfinder tales take place in the same general setting and we can go from Salim or the nidalese wizard tossing out spells and chugging heal pots to Elyana struggling to get through the day in one piece. Reconciling who has access to what sort of material is always hard to judge, especially based off the first few chapters of one book! Taking Aliel's death as "final" due to the rarity of resurrection magic versus Salim plane-hopping to snag her soul and put it right back in place gives the two a dramatically different feel (also btw DB I totally assumed she was a brightness seeker as per the class and was half-expecting her reincarnation to appear and speak to Renar).
But I also wanted to say that I didn't at all mean that I thought you were thinking less critically (with the generous comment). I think we just appreciate some different aspects of the story; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - I just get the impression that you get way more immersed in the concepts and backgrounds of the characters than I do! I know I often tend to focus more on the meta of the book's construction, sometimes too much so, and as a result I don't always get the full sense of what a plot moment is attempting to convey. Aliel's death is a great example of this difference imo - it seemed like it struck you as a genuinely sad moment where you appreciated the sort of loss her death means to the elves (and also what it means to us as readers); for me, I struggled to feel anything because I was trying to figure out how it fit with the sequences of deaths that occurred otherwise (which is also why I was interested in hearing your thoughts on how the deaths impacted you in the last half of the book).
For example, Kellius's death imo was just like the archetypal "horror movie" death where the heroes think they might have escaped terrible fates, and then something horrifying happens to end one of them. Petrony's death is meant to fuel Elyana's desire for revenge against the bard as this hits on a personal level (he did spare Renar, after all). Edak's death establishes that Arcil is in no way, at all, remotely redeemable and it doesn't matter what marginal good he's done in the intervening years (like protecting them from Galt assassins), he's a genuinely bad person. All these have some sort of impact and meaning attached to them.
Aliel's death then (and her two guards) to me didn't seem to add to anything, as it's bookended by more "powerful" deaths preceding and following it. It also ran counter to my impression of her uncle as a watchful, perhaps level 10 wizard who managed would of course have noticed a galtan army charging through his borders. Stuff like this pulls me out of the plot and I start asking questions like "how would the story have changed if that hadn't happened? what if it had happened differently, what's the impact?" etc. I attend to these points first, and it ends up being a different experience for me than had I just bonded with the story itself and accepted the events for happening the way they do. It seems like you immerse yourself in a different way, accepting things at face value, and I think that's a skill all on its own so the PTBC is a ton of fun for me. There have been many times my opinion on something has changed because of another reader's experience (or author explanation) and that makes reading these a lot different than reading any other fantasy series.
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Maybe she’s not a hero. You’re right, she sure doesn’t seem like one at times, but maybe that’s the point because she doesn’t necessarily think she’s one either.
I also wanted to highlight this because this set me back and thought about it from another perspective. Assuming that she's actively NOT a hero, it says something about her that she steps forward to face all these dangers when no one else seems to be able to. It's interesting to think about, especially with the Pathfinder Tales plethora of "reluctant hero" characters - who are often still fairly unequivocally heroic. Elyana imo stands a bit apart in having a strong undertone of perhaps actually not only being reluctant but genuinely not wanting to be the one that all the focus is on. Unfortunately, her long life and experience amongst all these short-lived races means that she is often turned to as the elder, as the gifted leader, and, without exaggeration, none of those things appeal to her in any way (when at least most of the other characters we've read so far have some sort of ego to appeal towards). Elyana just straight-up walks away from even that stuff too. Huh.
I think I can stand behind that as a character trait. Thanks for responding, DB, that adds a lot of food for thought.
edit: oh yeah also the text implies that Arcil's soul "fractured" and is leaking out - the phylactery is a receptacle for the lich's soul. If the soul itself is damaged, it doesn't matter - there's nothing left to regenerate. Arcil is D-E-D dead (according to those rules, of course).
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Mr. Howard Andrew Jones! It was great to meet you at GenCon, and thank you for your words of wisdom. I feel like I know Elyana better just from your comments, and the low magic settings make perfect sense now.
Although I take some pride in being the quartermaster of my group, a part of me always feels just a little bit strange about being able to sell off all different kinds of loot regardless of supply and demand, then going "shopping" for anything and everything that has a GP value to try and survive our next adventure. I'd actually like to try low magic settings in a game, if only for the challenge of playing a character that relied purely on her skills rather than depending on her tools, similar to Elyana. [I hope you know I was being facetious about giving her a magic bow...]
It was a pleasure to meet you! I only wish I'd had a few more copies of BEYOND THE POOL OF STARS because I would very much have liked to sent you home with one of the advance copies.
I've realized recently that other people have been gaming differently me for years. I guess we all bring something different to the table, but I didn't realize just how different my own low-magic approach was when compared to what other people do until I began reading more and more fantasy game novels. I suppose you're doing it right as a GM so long as your players are having fun, and I think most of mine have been over the years. Mine haven't complained, but I see that perhaps the expected standard is different from what I'm used to giving.
I thought I'd loosened up a little and brought more magic in with POOL OF STARS but, having just read some other Pathfinder novels I realize that, no, not that much more. I have a hard time enjoying playing in a super magic rich environment as well as writing in one. I guess I just have a natural inclination to keep it a little grittier. That's one of the reasons I like setting things out in the wilds where I have more of an excuse to keep things simpler.
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fwiw I quite like that these books are on the low-magic end of the continuum. :)
This is probably a sentiment I've expressed before, but I really enjoy that the Tales showcase a variety of different approaches and, for lack of a better term, "play styles" in the setting. There are a lot of people who prefer lower-magic campaigns, and seeing a lower-magic treatment in fiction might help those GMs think of fun ways to run those campaigns, or convince potentially reluctant players that yes, low magic can be just as fun and heroic as blaster-caster campaigns.
I am really looking forward to Beyond the Pool of Stars. Just one more week until the Kindle version releases!