Kineticist TWF with Kinetic Blade and Kinetic Whip

[Derrick Winters]

Is it possible for a Kineticist to use Two-Weapon Fighting with the Kinetic Blade AND the Kinetic Whip form infusions?

A kineticist with the feats TWF and Improved Unarmed Strike declares a full-attack and decides he wants to use TWF.

Now, as part of this full-attack action, he activates the Kinetic Blade form infusion ONCE - this creates a kinetic blade, and he uses it in his "main hand".

Then, as part of the same full-attack action, he activates the Kinetic Whip form infusion ONCE - this creates a kinetic whip, and he uses it in his "off hand".

He proceeds to use his fire blade/whip that target touch AC to overcome the to-hit penalties of TWF and deal large amounts of damage.

1) Is the scenario above possible, according to the rules?

2) Is the scenario above INTENDED by the designer of the Kineticist?

[Zautos']

1) Don't know. But probably not.
2) And I think the answer is a solid no

[Derrick Winters]

1) Care to provide any reasoning why not?
Is it because of some specific wording of the TWF-feats, or because of some wording of the Kinetic Blade/Whip infusions?

2) I agree, but I'd much rather have solid arguments behind that opinion

[Sphynx]

1) No, at least not until level 17 when you can do 2 Kinetic Blasts in the same Standard Action.

You are using a Kinetic Blast, which can include 1 Form Infusion and 1 Substance Infusion. Since you can not use 2 Kinetic Blasts at the same time, you can't use both Blade and Whip at the same time. Since you can only do 1 Kinetic Blast in a Standard Action, then you can only use 1 of the 2 Form Infusions.

2) Answered by 1.

[Imbicatus]

Sphynx is correct. You can only ever use one kinetic blast per round until you get the double blast metakinesis. Since yo can only use one form infusion per blast, you cannot two-weapon fight with two kinetic blades or a blade and whip until 17th. Even then, the burn cost of that is going to be outrageous.

You can use TWF to fight with one blade and a regular weapon, but then you will be unable to use gather power.

[Deadkitten]

What's being argued here is that he isn't trying to add two form infusions to a single blast, he is using two different blasts in the same round.

Both kinetic Blade and kinetic whip have specific wording that they activate on a full attack, so the action to use them is basically a "free" action for both.

[Imbicatus]

Either way, you still can't activate two blasts per round without double metakinesis at 17t level.

It's possible to do it then, but it's a very large burn cost to do so.

[Mark Seifter]

Good question! It is not possible without the doubling metakinesis. Kinetic blade says that you can only use it once in conjunction with certain types of actions, and kinetic whip is "as kinetic blade, but..." so it still carries that restriction of being as kinetic blade, which means it can't be activated during an action in tandem (since you couldn't have activated blade again).

[Johnny_Devo]

And here's mark seifter, swooping into another kineticist thread! Love how involved you are, mark.

[glitchhappens]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Good question! It is not possible without the doubling metakinesis. Kinetic blade says that you can only use it once in conjunction with certain types of actions, and kinetic whip is "as kinetic blade, but..." so it still carries that restriction of being as kinetic blade, which means it can't be activated during an action in tandem (since you couldn't have activated blade again).

I am joining this conversation way late. Recently playing a kineticist in a mythic campaign I found a way though there is a lot of grayness to it.

Champion Path Ability
Overcharged Blast (Su)
Whenever you use one of your kinetic blasts, you can expend one use of mythic power as a free action to apply one additional infusion to the blast, beyond the normal limit of one form infusion and one substance infusion per blast. Additionally, whenever you use this ability, you reduce the total amount of burn you would accept from the blast by 2 (to a minimum of 0).