Champion's Finesse and Aldori Dueling Sword


Rules Questions


I have a player with a question whether these two can work in this certain situation - I think the answer is unfortunately 'no', but I'm looking for confirmation.

Player: Does have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Aldori Dueling Sword)

Aldori Dueling Sword reads: "An Aldori dueling sword may be used as a Martial Weapon (in which case it functions as a longsword), but if you have the feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Aldori dueling sword), you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls with an Aldori dueling sword sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon."

Note of interest: Aldori Dueling Sword is a slashing weapon.

Champion's Finesse (Ability of Daring Champion, a Cavalier archetype): At 1st level, a daring champion gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and he can use Charisma in place of Intelligence for the purpose of combat feats prerequisites. A daring champion also counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for the purpose of meeting feat requirements.

Thought: As an Aldori Dueling Sword is slashing and not a piercing weapon, it unfortunately does not function with the Champion's Finesse ability.

Is this correct?

Thanks!

Silver Crusade Contributor

Absolutely correct. It's a fabulous candidate for Slashing Grace, though. ^_^


It works if you take Slashing Grace but then you are forced to go with one hand.

Silver Crusade Contributor

I did forget that the ADS has a specific benefit for two-handed use.

Still Slashing Grace or bust, though. Or an effortless lace, but that's a given.


Good to have a confirmation. Thanks!

Silver Crusade Contributor

No problem! ^_^

Silver Crusade

I am the person who have this question and i'll say why i think they should work together.
Swashbuckler finesse is improved crb finesse - it gives not just light, but also one handed piercing.
Aldori dueling sword is one handed. It is slashing so it is not subject for finesse (and if it was piercing you would not need prof to make it finesable for swash finesse). BUT with profiency it says that it becomes finesable. Finesable just like light weapons (similar rapier, elven curve and etc that says that they are finesable even while usualy they should not be). Special rule overwrites usual rule.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Mr Oger wrote:

I am the person who have this question and i'll say why i think they should work together.

Swashbuckler finesse is improved crb finesse - it gives not just light, but also one handed piercing.
Aldori dueling sword is one handed. It is slashing so it is not subject for finesse (and if it was piercing you would not need prof to make it finesable for swash finesse). BUT with profiency it says that it becomes finesable. Finesable just like light weapons (similar rapier, elven curve and etc that says that they are finesable even while usualy they should not be). Special rule overwrites usual rule.

Let's take a look at the Swashbuckler Finesse class feature:

Swashbuckler Finesse wrote:
At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.

You don't actually have Weapon Finesse for anything but feat prerequisites. You have a class feature that gives the benefits of Weapon Finesse, but only for a specific subset of weapons. So the finessability of the dueling sword has no effect, because you don't have Weapon Finesse. If you spent a feat on Weapon Finesse, you would be able to benefit from its effects with your dueling sword.

Does that make sense?

Silver Crusade

No, i think is does not makyng any sense, because - srsly, wtf? you sayng that finesable weapons do not work for swash finesse? It totaly copies and improves effect of crb feat, so finesable weapons should work too


A piercing finessable weapon, such as the rapier, works with swashbuckler's finesse.

A slashing finessable weapon, such as the aldori dueling sword, does not.

Silver Crusade

Johnny_Devo wrote:

A piercing finessable weapon, such as the rapier, works with swashbuckler's finesse.

A slashing finessable weapon, such as the aldori dueling sword, does not.

USUALY not. but strict rule says that it is. They are working like light weapon for finessing, while all light weapon is finesable. Aslo i'm sure that aldori was made before swashbuckler even planned, so it was refering to usual finesse, when only light could be finesed.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Mr Oger wrote:


Swashbuckler finesse is improved crb finesse - it gives not just light, but also one handed piercing.

No, it applies to (light or one-handed) (piercing) weapons. I know the text is unclear, but trust me, we have been over this one million gajillion times on the forum already.


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Mr. Oger, it is absolutely unfortunate for you but RAW it just doesn't work the way you want it to for the cited reasons. This won't change by repetitively arguing the opposite with us. Your GM might agree that its reasonable for Champion's Finesse to function as you want it to. He could fix it for you. If he doesn't want to it just sucks to be you. Make do with the alternatives presented to you or don't make do at all.

What was printed first is irrelevant. If they wanted to change it they could have done so. They didn't. I realize that argument is flawed but there's a kernel of truth to it. They do change all kinds of stuff on a somewhat regular basis for a variety of reasons. The ACG, containing both the Swashbuckler and the Daring Champion archetype, was errata'ed only recently. That opportunity to change this particularly was ignored for whatever reason. Aldori Dueling Sword is from the ISG, right? It might be worth checking out if and when that book received errata. If so, check what kind of things was changed. It might present you with an idea of why it is the way it is. You may be able to argue it as an oversight... (See how bad my initial point in this paragraph is :p)

Somewhat related, seriously, of course you can argue your case here but if you must do so, do so with grace. You kind of come across as a five-year old with a temper tantrum that just won't accept no for an answer. Don't be that guy.
Aaand now I'm 'that other guy' :/ Great...

Silver Crusade

Casual Viking wrote:
Mr Oger wrote:


Swashbuckler finesse is improved crb finesse - it gives not just light, but also one handed piercing.
No, it applies to (light or one-handed) (piercing) weapons. I know the text is unclear, but trust me, we have been over this one million gajillion times on the forum already.

Wait, what? 0_o I could never thought about that. Thats... strange. Realy strange. Was there any clarification from paizo?

Silver Crusade

Arcane Addict wrote:

Mr. Oger, it is absolutely unfortunate for you but RAW it just doesn't work the way you want it to for the cited reasons. This won't change by repetitively arguing the opposite with us. Your GM might agree that its reasonable for Champion's Finesse to function as you want it to. He could fix it for you. If he doesn't want to it just sucks to be you. Make do with the alternatives presented to you or don't make do at all.

What was printed first is irrelevant. If they wanted to change it they could have done so. They didn't. I realize that argument is flawed but there's a kernel of truth to it. They do change all kinds of stuff on a somewhat regular basis for a variety of reasons. The ACG, containing both the Swashbuckler and the Daring Champion archetype, was errata'ed only recently. That opportunity to change this particularly was ignored for whatever reason. Aldori Dueling Sword is from the ISG, right? It might be worth checking out if and when that book received errata. If so, check what kind of things was changed. It might present you with an idea of why it is the way it is. You may be able to argue it as an oversight... (See how bad my initial point in this paragraph is :p)

Somewhat related, seriously, of course you can argue your case here but if you must do so, do so with grace. You kind of come across as a five-year old with a temper tantrum that just won't accept no for an answer. Don't be that guy.
Aaand now I'm 'that other guy' :/ Great...

Hm... Okay, sorry if i was any kind of insulting, i didn't want to. I just realy do not understand why swashbuckler's finesse do not have crb as base. I'm not very good at english and i find it hard to explain what i think. Sorry for that


When Swashbucklers and equivalents can't finesse weapons with the finesse property something went really wrong. I blame Paizo

Grand Lodge

Well, Aldori Dueling Mastery might work for you.

Silver Crusade

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Well, Aldori Dueling Mastery might work for you.

Nope, it's last part is only for duelist.


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Mr Oger wrote:
Hm... Okay, sorry if i was any kind of insulting, i didn't want to. I just realy do not understand why swashbuckler's finesse do not have crb as base. I'm not very good at english and i find it hard to explain what i think. Sorry for that

Its alright, really. It happens to the best of us on occasion, regarding matters far sillier, with worse reasons given. Sometimes those people are even English professors ;)

Really, I don't know why the designers and developers made it the way it is. There are a few theories though. The biggest is the notion that Dexterity is so good an attribute already that you need to jump through all kinds of hoops to get it to do even more for you. If you want to argue about that there are plenty of threads around. Fair warning, they're pretty tedious, if you ask me.
If you meant you don't understand our explanations then, well... I don't know what to tell you, I'm afraid :/ I don't know how to make it any clearer. Sorry...

Isn't there a feat or a trait or something that allows you to change the damage-type of a weapon? I ask because I do recall one of the Magus Archetypes using a bladed scarf changing its damage-type (or adding to it) which allowed it to fulfill requirements that the regular bladed scarf could not. Here's hoping for you, Mr Oger! Good luck!

Silver Crusade Contributor

The kapenia dancer archetype allows magi to wield bladed scarves as one-handed weapons, which may indeed open them up to Slashing Grace. Unfortunately, it's only available to that specific archetype, and only through class levels.


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Kalindlara wrote:
The kapenia dancer archetype allows magi to wield bladed scarves as one-handed weapons, which may indeed open them up to Slashing Grace. Unfortunately, it's only available to that specific archetype, and only through class levels.

Thats the one! Thanks :) To clarify, I mentioned it only to showcase there's a precedent for something, an archetype in this case, to alter the function of a weapon in turn allowing a greater range of options, like the Slashing Grace feat, to apply. If there is something like that then maybe that could solve the problem in a RAW manner. If not, well, back to shmoozing the DM into letting it slide it is!

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