I’ll be playing a Mythic game this afternoon. We’re 11th level with 3 Mythic tiers, and while we’re pretty powerful the game doesn’t feel unbalanced - at least not in the party’s favor. We get beat down more in that game than any other I’m playing right now. Maybe it is the Mythic monsters. Maybe it is the DM using tactics - tough for me to say since I'm just a Fighter (well, my PC is)
@Crimeo - You’re assuming that the DM will react to the PCs by changing the encounters in the campaign. This isn’t always the case in an AP and should never be the case in PFS. I kind of prefer those styles of play since they're less likely to turn into a contest of what cool powers I can find and how the DM can frustrate them.
@Anzyr - To be fair, Paizo often changes the rules after a game has started. I generally wouldn’t blame a DM for using the official rules (though the vehicular combat rules have enough problems that actually I might)
@Anzyr - To be fair, Paizo often changes the rules after a game has started. I generally wouldn’t blame a DM for using the official rules (though the vehicular combat rules have enough problems that actually I might)
Yeeeaaaaah.
On one hand people don't like the state of martial. On the other paizo does constant faq errata that leads to the problem of rules changing mid campaign far too often And the changes seem to nerf martials
I've seen plenty of nerfs to casting in the past such as Terrible Remorse, which started out really broken. Still, the thing my martial PCs most often feel bad about is that failing a Will save is so often a complete disaster. If fewer spells took you out of the fight or made you a liability with a single bad (or often even average) d20 roll I think that would be a pretty effective nerf to the casting world.
Of course going from the all or nothing of SoL/SoD to something less decisive would make it even more annoying when the party caster just plonks away with "save negates" and the DM's saving throw dice are hot. I really like the idea of stuff which gives a lesser effect on a successful save though. Balancing spells by having them do nothing on a successful save but be devastating on a failed one doesn't lead to more fun IMO. I'd rather see the effects blended towards the middle a little. I'm not saying that will ever happen, but Pathfinder tried to remove or reduce SoD. Maybe SoL based on a single roll should start getting phased out too. This is especially true for group SoL since I don't like one turn encounters much.
I'm a little cautious when I see one-strategy builds show up at my PFS tables. My experience is that some of these characters are over-clocked for their one strategy, and it means that they are really very poor at Plans B, C, and D.
I've seen archers balk at going underwater, charge builds that couldn't deal with flying opponents, reach builds that are helpless when grappled, and enchanters who couldn't affect mindless creatures. Fire sorcerers who can't deal with fireproof creatures are a particular pet peeve.
So, yeah. In my experience, you only get to use plan A about half the time.
As a GM, this makes me smile. Because there will be an encounter or two where you are are unstoppable, but there will also be an encounter or two where you don't have much to contribute (searching the crime scene for clues), and someday, something will arrive that's immune to your trick. That's probably the day that I kill you.
... Fire sorcerers who can't deal with fireproof creatures are a particular pet peeve. ...
This, and minor variants, is the worst. I get the desire for theme, but you suck versus so many things.
Leading townspeople to repair a dam IS a solution. I can't think of a reason it isn't.
The only real one trick pony character's are archers.
"What do you want to do?"
"Not move more than 5 feet and shoot my bow"
"Yeah. No s%+!. "
At least that archer took engineering though.
Well this is kinda not entirely their fault. Archery has so many mandatory feats that unless your a fighter, you pretty much wont have much else... ot a zen archer monk or ranger or slayer i suppose lol.
Speaking of zem archer, they can do fun stuff, likr shoot around cornors.
Leading townspeople to repair a dam IS a solution. I can't think of a reason it isn't.Think harder, then. I even pointed out one of the relevant spells by name.No, those are ALSO solutions. One does not preclude the other from being.
How many man-days of work does it take to replicate "This spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces. A wall of stone is 2 inches thick and composed of up to nine 5-foot squares"?You and your wizard appear to have failed their Knowledge engineering check.
A couple of inchs of stone can be punched through with sledges in minutes. The stresses involved in a failing dam exceed that, by a significant amount, and also tend to be forces that attack strengths which the stone is even less able to take, such as shearing.
But lets assume that our 11th level wizard uses one of his most powerful spells in the day to help in the most effective way he can with it(of the top of my head, that would mean making a strut rather than a sheet) we are talking about something that the community, with leadership can do multiple of in an hour. The wizard substantially reduces his combat effectiveness doing it while the example fighter is still ready to go.
Edit: the more I think about it, about the only thing your example is any good for in this, is providing a temporary rest bite on a serious failure.
I suppose on a relatively small dam, it could be used to "weld" a single crack, but that assumes that the wizard knows the exact shape of the crack and that that crack is the only failure.
Since wizards are going to pretty much always have more intelligence then fighters, isn't it more likely that the wizard is going to be the one who makes Knowledge (Engineering) checks?
I'm a little cautious when I see one-strategy builds show up at my PFS tables. My experience is that some of these characters are over-clocked for their one strategy, and it means that they are really very poor at Plans B, C, and D.
That's a possibility, but your examples aren't the best ones...
I've seen archers balk at going underwaterWho doesn't? Going underwater screws everyone... there are ways around it, but it's usually a pretty bad situation for everyone.
charge builds that couldn't deal with flying opponents
Don't they carry a bow? That's literally all they need to do. Hell! Just having the Deadly Aim feat makes you a decent secondary ranged combatant.
reach builds that are helpless when grappled
Wait... Is there any reach build in the world that doesn't include gauntlets/armor spikes/cestus?
and enchanters who couldn't affect mindless creatures.
This is just a really bad decision. Every class that can make an "enchanter" has access to a multitude of spells that would help them and their party to fight all sorts of creatures, mindless or not.
Fire sorcerers who can't deal with fireproof creatures are a particular pet peeve.
Again, this is just going beyond "having a theme" and into "idiotic narrow-mindedness"
So, yeah. In my experience, you only get to use plan A about half the time.
As a GM, this makes me smile. Because there will be an encounter or two where you are are unstoppable, but there will also be an encounter or two where you don't have much to contribute (searching the crime scene for clues), and someday, something will arrive that's immune to your trick. That's probably the day that I kill you.
That's the reason I hate feat taxes and the "game of inches" philosophy that haunts martial characters...
A few days ago, my players almost suffered a TPk because none of their 13th level characters were prepared to deal with incorporeal enemies... Some of them complained the enemy was too strong, my reply is that if by 13th level you aren't prepared to deal with incorporeal creatures, that's on you. I'd feel around zero guilt if they had failed to run away and ended up TPK'd.
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Since wizards are going to pretty much always have more intelligence then fighters, isn't it more likely that the wizard is going to be the one who makes Knowledge (Engineering) checks?
Ah, but Schrodinger's Fighter has all relevant skills trained, despite the fact that they have very little need for INT and 2 skills per level.
GMs still let Dragon's actually get into melee, and then have them fight the guy wearing heavy armor instead of the guy in robes?Why not? Do you have any idea just how effective Crush is at taking multiple people out of the fight for good?
In one encounter our GM had an Ancient Black Dragon strafe us with flyby attack with breath weapons while on improved invisibility and mage armor... THAT fight sucked.
Be glad there wasn't Metabreath involved.
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A few days ago, my players almost suffered a TPk because none of their 13th level characters were prepared to deal with incorporeal enemies... Some of them complained the enemy was too strong, my reply is that if by 13th level you aren't prepared to deal with incorporeal creatures, that's on you. I'd feel around zero guilt if they had failed to run away and ended up TPK'd.
Wait - what? How hard is that? All it takes is magic weapons, casters with spirit weapon/magic missile, and readied actions - plus max out PA/Combat Expertise, and fighting defensively since their ACs suck past low levels. Sure, they're annoying, but besides being incorporeal, all but some Ghost builds tend to be weaksauce by 13. (unless you ambush with a horde of ability damage ones)
Well as pointed out somewhere, ideally Shadows shouls have taken over the whole world by now lol
That's a possibility, but your examples aren't the best ones...
Let me be more clear. These aren't theoretical concepts, they are actual examples of things that have happened to me.
I've seen archers balk at going underwaterWho doesn't? Going underwater screws everyone... there are ways around it, but it's usually a pretty bad situation for everyone.
We were given magic items to allow breathing. And given that everyone is at a disadvantage, it' still the case that the higher level fighter/ranger, who has more hit points and armor class, should be in the front.
charge builds that couldn't deal with flying opponents
Don't they carry a bow? That's literally all they need to do. Hell! Just having the Deadly Aim feat makes you a decent secondary ranged combatant.
I know, a few hundred gold or 2 prestige would have fixed this. Likewise, power attack makes any archer into a decent secondary melee combatant. But I rarely see it.
reach builds that are helpless when grappled
Wait... Is there any reach build in the world that doesn't include gauntlets/armor spikes/cestus?
Yes, yes there are. Even worse, this problem can be solved for 2gp.
and enchanters who couldn't affect mindless creatures.
This is just a really bad decision. Every class that can make an "enchanter" has access to a multitude of spells that would help them and their party to fight all sorts of creatures, mindless or not.
Yes, but you have to select those spells, or buy those scrolls.
Fire sorcerers who can't deal with fireproof creatures are a particular pet peeve.
Again, this is just going beyond "having a theme" and into "idiotic narrow-mindedness"
i agree with you, but I've seen it happen.
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Everyone balks at going underwater. Most melee weapons don't work, most popular spells don't work right, and almost all characters can't breathe without magic.
And there is no communal or mass version of water breathing so the spontaneous casters can't afford to know it and the prepared casters can't afford to have enough castings prepared for the whole party unless the underwater encounter is telegraphed a day in advance.
I know my heavy armor cleric sprang for a necklace of adaptation as soon as he was able for just this reason. Freedom of movement came in handy once he was high enough level for it as well.
But for the most part, parties aren't really able to prepare for it unless they're like my Skull and Shackles group. We live on a boat, underwater countermeasures are required. Thankfully, my druid turns into an octopus on such occasions. :P
And there is no communal or mass version of water breathing...
PRD - "Water Breathing spell:
Target living creatures touchedDuration 2 hours/level; see text
text: The transmuted creatures can breathe water freely. Divide the duration evenly among all the creatures you touch..."
I think water breathing can be cast on as many creatures you can touch...
Using Background Skills from Unchained can let those Fighters at least be good at Knowledge (Engineering) since it is a class skill for them. With 2 extra ranks per level to spend on less useful skills suddenly a lot of Fighters might become experts on stuff which comes up once in a while.
Regarding spiked gauntlets, a lot of players don’t seem to think of these on their own. That results in people like me suggesting that they should buy a spiked gauntlet, which generally results in them acting offended somebody is "telling them what to do". Seriously, most people I play with would rather have their PC die outright than submit to wearing a spiked gauntlet. Some of them refuse my advice so that they can feel they’re making their own decisions. For others it is simply an attempt to frustrate to frustrate me. Either way, nobody I play with besides my girlfriend ever uses spiked gauntlets.
Around half of my PCs tend to have Improved Unarmed Strike. Do you have a specific reason why you refuse to wear spiked gauntlets? Like maybe somebody in your group said, "If you wore a spiked gauntlet instead you'd be able to cut your way out if you get swallowed whole." and then you were like, "Stop telling me what to do!" (just kidding about that part, but seriously - what do you have against the spikes?)
Yeah I mean, you know,
I'm basically bothered by everything now. For awhile, I thought my medicine wasn't working as well anymore, but now I'm pretty sure it was the advanced class guide errata.
But thanks, OP, now I know one more thing to avoid in the pipe dream system I'm writing with some friends. One build classes. That's good.
Adamantine Dagger...
The adventurers lockpick lol
Wait there are people who don't use Spiked Gauntlets? But where do they put their Duelist magic weapon enhancement on their spellcasters then?
Uh oh, is suggesting the use of spiked gauntlets what makes me a power gamer and poor roleplayer? Here I thought it was the fact that I often have the highest AC in the party (often due to the crazy notion of using a shield...)
Uh oh, is suggesting the use of spiked gauntlets what makes me a power gamer and poor roleplayer? Here I thought it was the fact that I often have the highest AC in the party (often due to the crazy notion of using a shield...)
You crazy min-maxer. ;)
I don't use spiked gauntlets because I usually want to wear hand-slot items from the wondrous items list. I do like to have a bite attack or claws, though. That and the aforementioned adamantine dagger fill the spiked gauntlet roles pretty nicely.
Wait there are people who don't use Spiked Gauntlets? But where do they put their Duelist magic weapon enhancement on their spellcasters then?
Hmm. That simply never occurred to me. That does sound nice.
My girlfriend's PC in Kingmaker had a dueling spiked gauntlet. She was a caster with 8 Str who sometimes enjoyed debuffing mooks to the point where she could go slap them to death.