When did Aroden ascend?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


I've heard it said that he ascended (to Heaven or wherever) after the creation of Absalom. Is that correct? But he was around to kill Tar-Baphon in 896 AR. and when did the Starfall Doctrine come into place?

Liberty's Edge

The year 1, he raised the Starstone (creating the isle of Kortos with it) and became a living god. Can't say I know for the Starfall Doctrine though.


Okay, upon further reading I see that Aroden appeared on Golarion several times after his ascension. I'm curious to know the origin of the Starfell Doctrine, though; when it was written/uttered, and by whom.


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Aroden ascended to divinity but then stuck around as a very active physical god for a long time, which is one of the reasons that humans are the most influential species of the modern era.


Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
Aroden ascended to divinity but then stuck around as a very active physical god for a long time, which is one of the reasons that humans are the most influential species of the modern era.

Right, and I guess that's where I'm confused. When did he stop being an active physical presence on Golarion?


Sometime between when he defeated Tar-Baphon and the Shining Crusade. I believe that's as specific as the canon has gotten.


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PFWiki Scribe wrote:
Sometime between when he defeated Tar-Baphon and the Shining Crusade. I believe that's as specific as the canon has gotten.

Clarification:

When he defeated Tar-Baphon as a mortal(ish) necromancer, not Tar-Baphon as a lich. Aroden didn't fight* Tar-Baphon as a lich.

*the reasons for this are unkown but there are plentiful theories going around.

Deighton Thrane wrote:
The year 1, he raised the Starstone (creating the isle of Kortos with it) and became a living god. Can't say I know for the Starfall Doctrine though.

Wasn't year 0?

Ylem wrote:
I've heard it said that he ascended (to Heaven or wherever) after the creation of Absalom.

Axis, not Heaven. Aroden (at least as a deity) was LN and not LG, in fact after his death his personal domain in Axis belongs to Milani.


leo1925 wrote:

Deighton Thrane wrote:
The year 1, he raised the Starstone (creating the isle of Kortos with it) and became a living god. Can't say I know for the Starfall Doctrine though.
Wasn't year 0

Nope, there is no 0 AR in Golarion.

Contributor

Folks interested in Aroden's pre-deific career should check out Tim Pratt's most excellent novel Liar's Blade, which I just finished this morning and highly recommend.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

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There is a huge article on Aroden written by me in Pathfinder #100 that covers pretty much all of this.

In Summary:

Before the fall of Azlant, Aroden was a mortal man of great importance.

After Earthfall, he dedicated himself to helping Azlanti survivors reach safety in Avistan and to preserving what was left of Azlanti culture.

During this period, he became immortal (but did not become divine).

In the long, long period of time between the Age of Darkness and the raising of the Starstone, Aroden was essentially a high-level adventurer who spent time fighting demon lords, founding nations, and shifting his attention from Azlant in particular to humanity in general.

When he raised the Starstone he used it to go on a phantasmagoric spiritual journey (the first "Test of the Starstone") and emerged as a "living god" (basically a demigod). It's at this time that Aroden's cult of personality turned into an actual cult, and his clerics began to cast spells.

Aroden founds the city of Absalom at this point (or very shortly thereafter).

By 400 AR, Aroden is growing more and more interested in the Great Beyond, and while he is still present on Golarion, his interactions with humans grow further and further between.

He defeats Tar-Baphon in the 800s, but tellingly his attention is not lured to Tar-Baphon when the villain arises centuries later as the lich known as the Whispering Tyrant.

Some years later (in 4433), Aroden returns to Golarion to put down the demon lord Deskari in the north, which is his final bombastic appearance before the current era (basically some 300 years ago, give or take).

The Starfall Doctrine predates the fall of Azlant, and specifies the rise of a "Last Azlanti" who will lead humanity to a new Age of Glory. After Cheliax seceded from Taldor, hard-liners within the church of Aroden focused heavily on the Doctrine, proclaiming Cheliax (and Westrcrown specifically) as the spot where Aroden would manifest to usher in this Age of Glory.

It didn't go according to plan.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Erik Mona wrote:

The Starfall Doctrine predates the fall of Azlant, and specifies the rise of a "Last Azlanti" who will lead humanity to a new Age of Glory. After Cheliax seceded from Taldor, hard-liners within the church of Aroden focused heavily on the Doctrine, proclaiming Cheliax (and Westrcrown specifically) as the spot where Aroden would manifest to usher in this Age of Glory.

It didn't go according to plan.

Council of Thieves is an excellent read, if this topic interests you. I'm hoping we see more on pre-Thrune Westcrown someday.

Looking forward to the Aroden article even more now!


Erik Mona wrote:

There is a huge article on Aroden written by me in Pathfinder #100 that covers pretty much all of this.

OMG! Thank you for the preview, Erik! This was exactly what I was looking for. I can't wait to read your full article!! :)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ylem wrote:
I've heard it said that he ascended (to Heaven or wherever) after the creation of Absalom. Is that correct? But he was around to kill Tar-Baphon in 896 AR. and when did the Starfall Doctrine come into place?

Aroden did not become a deity from raising the starstone. It was given to him as a deal for keeping the starstone away from every tom dick and harriet who would access it's power.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Erik Mona wrote:
When he raised the Starstone he used it to go on a phantasmagoric spiritual journey (the first "Test of the Starstone") and emerged as a "living god" (basically a demigod). It's at this time that Aroden's cult of personality turned into an actual cult, and his clerics began to cast spells.

The entry on the Starstone Cathedral in Mythic Realms, would seem to contradict this story. Essentially raising the starstone made Aroden mythic, and godhood was offered to him as a deal for constructing the Cathedral that would keep it from casual access.

Scarab Sages

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I'll wait til 100 to draw final conclusions, but the eminent retcon that aroden wasn't a true God when he fought tb lowers the cool of the necro 20 archmage 10 bbeg by so so much. His unique path to lichdom which included being killed by a god is so much weaker when it's "be killed by a divine source 3 magus". It just lowers the gravitas of the meanest bad guy in the setting by boatloads.

Paizo Employee Developer

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Some of the information that we trickled out over the course of the campaign setting was contradictory. Erik's article in Pathfinder #100 aims to shore up some of those instances and clarify some loose ends.

I feel I should also mention...
From the Office of Expectation Management: We do not reveal how Aroden died.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

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LazarX wrote:
Ylem wrote:
I've heard it said that he ascended (to Heaven or wherever) after the creation of Absalom. Is that correct? But he was around to kill Tar-Baphon in 896 AR. and when did the Starfall Doctrine come into place?
Aroden did not become a deity from raising the starstone. It was given to him as a deal for keeping the starstone away from every tom dick and harriet who would access it's power.

Wrong.

That's an interpretation from Mythic Realms that doesn't jibe with any of the previous material on Aroden, so the Pathfinder 100 article is more explicit about how this actually happened. The other gods had surprisingly little to do with it.

I discovered this inconsistency while collecting all of the material on Aroden so far, and was quite disappointed. I'd had a chance to review everything else we'd ever published on the god (whom I invented and have been guiding development on since 2007), but somehow this short section managed to avoid my attention.

You can consider that version of the tale a scurrilous lie traded back and forth by Aroden's enemies if you're desperate to keep it in the setting, but I completely ignored it and deliberately invalidated it with the Pathfinder #100 article.

Hope that doesn't come as too big of a disappointment.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

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archmagi1 wrote:
I'll wait til 100 to draw final conclusions, but the eminent retcon that aroden wasn't a true God when he fought tb lowers the cool of the necro 20 archmage 10 bbeg by so so much. His unique path to lichdom which included being killed by a god is so much weaker when it's "be killed by a divine source 3 magus". It just lowers the gravitas of the meanest bad guy in the setting by boatloads.

You'll have to read the article (which doesn't go into Tar-Baphon's mythology at all, really) but Aroden WAS a god when he fought TB, and had been for something like 800 years.

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Erik Mona wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Ylem wrote:
I've heard it said that he ascended (to Heaven or wherever) after the creation of Absalom. Is that correct? But he was around to kill Tar-Baphon in 896 AR. and when did the Starfall Doctrine come into place?
Aroden did not become a deity from raising the starstone. It was given to him as a deal for keeping the starstone away from every tom dick and harriet who would access it's power.

Wrong.

That's an interpretation from Mythic Realms that doesn't jibe with any of the previous material on Aroden, so the Pathfinder 100 article is more explicit about how this actually happened. The other gods had surprisingly little to do with it.

I discovered this inconsistency while collecting all of the material on Aroden so far, and was quite disappointed. I'd had a chance to review everything else we'd ever published on the god (whom I invented and have been guiding development on since 2007), but somehow this short section managed to avoid my attention.

You can consider that version of the tale a scurrilous lie traded back and forth by Aroden's enemies if you're desperate to keep it in the setting, but I completely ignored it and deliberately invalidated it with the Pathfinder #100 article.

Hope that doesn't come as too big of a disappointment.

Awesome! Mythic Realms's story always seemed radically out of place in the canon...

Scarab Sages

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Erik Mona wrote:
archmagi1 wrote:
I'll wait til 100 to draw final conclusions, but the eminent retcon that aroden wasn't a true God when he fought tb lowers the cool of the necro 20 archmage 10 bbeg by so so much. His unique path to lichdom which included being killed by a god is so much weaker when it's "be killed by a divine source 3 magus". It just lowers the gravitas of the meanest bad guy in the setting by boatloads.
You'll have to read the article (which doesn't go into Tar-Baphon's mythology at all, really) but Aroden WAS a god when he fought TB, and had been for something like 800 years.

Well that's a relief :P

Can't wait.


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Erik Mona wrote:

Hope that doesn't come as too big of a disappointment.

Oh, I prefer this one. :D

Does this mean that the effects of the Starstone from Mythic Realms are also in error? Because that has never sat well with me either.


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Erik Mona wrote:

There is a huge article on Aroden written by me in Pathfinder #100 that covers pretty much all of this.

[Cool stuff!]

This alone made me resubscribe. Can't wait!

Ruyan.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

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Cool! Thanks.

Yeah, I'd consider the rules for the Starstone to be a "quick-and-dirty" way of doing it (if you want to) while you wait for Paizo to publish an actual Test of the Starstone adventure. The process is _narrative_ and interactive in nature, and is different for everyone.

I am suspicious of the element involving sponsorship of another god. Aroden did not have a sponsor. As far as we know Norgorber didn't have a sponsor. Cayden Cailean _definitely_ didn't have a sponsor.

I guess you could argue that Aroden himself was Iomedae's "sponsor," but that's true only in a general sense, and doesn't have anything to do with the Test of the Starstone.

Other than these two pages, I have vetted every piece of continuity we have ever introduced about Aroden.

The two pages in Mythic Realms are an exception, so I'm basically executing them.

Behold my terrible majesty. :)

Scarab Sages

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Erik Mona wrote:

As far as we know Norgorber didn't have a sponsor.

There are some secrets that the reaper of reputation must hide from even the developers.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Erik Mona wrote:

...

Other than these two pages, I have vetted every piece of continuity we have ever introduced about Aroden.

The two pages in Mythic Realms are an exception, so I'm basically executing them.

Behold my terrible majesty. :)

So, can you get the pdf of Mythic Realms updated, then?


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archmagi1 wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:

As far as we know Norgorber didn't have a sponsor.

There are some secrets that the reaper of reputation must hide from even the developers.

I still say he's four halflings in a trenchco - thud

(seedy hobbit pokes head into screen) Nothin' ta see here, folks. Move along. And don't go askin' the wrong questions, ya got it?

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