Absolutely most Optimized for DPR level 20 character in that class (single-class only).


Advice

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In various threads I'm often told how un-optimized the characters in my games are for damage-per-round. The guides, while interesting, don't actually show you how optimized you can be. I would like to propose that we make a compilation of the most optimized for DPR per class which is clearly marked for each level's advancement (so if you're a level 8 character, you can compare yourself to the optimized at level 8). Guides are great, but actually seeing the character sheet of what it -could- be would be far more interesting for anyone actually wanting a guide (especially if reasons for selections are clearly stated in the process).

While I'm not personally interested in having a high DPR character, I'm curious just how far behind the 'best' I lag. I also realize that not all classes are about damage output, rather depending on high DPR classes to do the damage while they do the battlefield control, and obviously I mean BFC in this as well.

Similarly, things like Summons, which people claim are the best way to do magic, explaining how it's better...

Anyone care to chip in on the project?


Firstly I tell you this is silly. You should never base anything on what happens at level 20.

At level 20 a fighter gets the ability automatically confirm any critical threat. This means a 20th level fighter is likely to output the most damage.

Fighter is also probably the least interesting class to play for the first 19 levels.


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Except that's not what I said nor suggested Claxon.

I want to see what that optimized character looks like at each level (up to 20). If people are telling me that my level 6 character is sub-optimal, then looking at the level 20 character and seeing what he was at by 6th level, will either confirm or refute that statement. Hence the request to show per-level development.


Wouldn't some builds peak earlier than others? I mean, building for level 20 is not the same as building for the level 5-10 range. The same build may not be the most optimised for both targets.


avr wrote:
Wouldn't some builds peak earlier than others? I mean, building for level 20 is not the same as building for the level 5-10 range. The same build may not be the most optimised for both targets.

Sure, but that's part of the reason for doing it as a supplement to the guides. I realize that if you're going to make a level 20 character, you'll likely skip some things that by actually going up in levels, you'd take in order to survive to level 20. I'm hoping that leads to just such discussions, where someone points out precisely that. That the L20 is hawt, but unrealistic, and with a better advancement plan laid out. :)


Some people will gladly take some pain in order to be better later. Simple example: a swashbuckler who takes a 10 str, dex 20 & gets fencing grace at level 3. At levels 1 & 2 the guy sucks in DPR, but this may be seen as a reasonable price to be competent at level 3+. One build to rule them all is not a reasonable expectation.

If that's the point you want to make - it's made. You don't need fifty L1-20 builds to prove it.


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Not trying to make a point. I'm trying to sate curiosity. There is a certain level of elitism on these forums in where people seem to just assume that everyone else knows of certain feats/combinations that are "Essential" for any class to be competitive. I want to see these things, and be able to see people quickly point to a certain thread to find the 'way' to build a character of that class and be most optimized. Things like... at what level do you take Power Attack, which tier after that is best? Which class is it better to follow the Combat Reflexes or certain Stances, than others... I'm hardened to the tone of people on here who just assume that if your Barbarian/Fighter/Monk/Paladin isn't pouring out X amount of damage at a certain level, you must be stupid. I want to see how that damage is being poured out, what it is I'm missing. A 20-level explained build lets me and anyone else see precisely these things. I know enough to know that come level X you're expected to have MegaFeat, but don't always know X or MegaFeat. See what I'm saying?


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Anyone who tells you you're having BADWRONGFUN because your character doesn't put out at least 10+level damage per hit or something like that is d-bag.

Ignore them and play what you want to play.

If you're interested in having optimized builds, or seeing how you compare to an optimized build simply go to Zenith Games and look at the comprehensive guide to class guides. The guide for whatever class you're interested in will show you what are probably some of the best and strongest builds for any particular class and you can see how you compare.

Otherwise, I don't think what you're asking for can be done fruitfully.


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Ok, can we get off the "this is stupid" derail this has taken. I haven't asked if it was a good idea or not, I've asked for help in doing this task. Of -course- it's something to be ignored if someone tells me I'm playing wrong. However, it is still advantages in these ADVICE forums to show examples of character advancement in a manner that leads to an optimized character. And as I've already stated, and am having to reiterate again, the guides do NOT meet the requisite being asked for here.

And truth be told, I don't actually expect the "best and strongest", though obviously it would be close and give a good feel on just how much damage one should be -close- to doing. Feats and Magic Items only do so much, but obviously there are some feats/magic items that are must-haves which make a class all the better.

Similarly, if I'm doing 1/3rd of what I'm "suppose" to be doing, according to those who optimize well, I should take a look-see at what I've done and consider the fact that in a dice-rolling game, mechanics are as important as theme.

Now can we get back on to the topic of the thread? Examples of builds for the various classes?


Sample Barbarian:
Fast Movement, Rage, Power Attack, Raging Vitality

Barb2
DR1/-, Lesser Beast Totem

Barb3
Extreme Endurance, Improved Sunder

Barb4
DR2/-, Power: Strength Surge

Barb5
Extra Rage Power: Superstition

Barb6
DR3/-, Cold Resist1, Beast Totem

Barb7
Extra Rage Power: Reckless Abandon

Barb8
DR4/-, Witchunter

Barb9
Cold Resist2, Combat Reflexes

Barb10
DR5/-,Gtr Beast Totem

Barb11
Greater Rage Dazing Assault

Barb12
Cold Resist3, DR6/-, Come and Get Me

Barb13
Extra Rage Power: Spell Sunder

Barb14
DR7/-, Eater of Magic

Barb15
Cold Resist4, Raging Brutality

Barb16
DR8/-, Ghost Rager

Barb17
Tireless Rage, Extra Rage Power: Smasher

Barb18
DR9/-, Cold Resist5, Surprise Accuracy

Barb19
Extra Rage Power: Sunder Enchantment

Barb20
Mighty Rage, DR10/-, Good for What Ails You


It's good idea. But it's maybe better to do only 10 levels.
You rarely go beyond that :-).

Nevertheless, I will give you my build when I'm at home.


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An example of a build for an archer warpriest

Spoiler:
Half-elf rather than human, because seeing farther, especially in darkness, may matter for an archer quite a bit
20-point build: str 14, dex 19, con 12, int 10, wis 13, cha 7
Assuming that blessings which don't say 'projectile weapons with this property apply it to their ammo' or something similar, don't.
Assuming that the +1/6 of a combat feat FCB is not part of the bonus feats class feature, so doesn't get its benefits, & it can be started at level 1.
Warpriest of Shelyn
1: sacred weapon, blessings (air, charm), weapon focus (longbow), point-blank shot, skill focus (perception)
2: fervor 1d6
3: rapid shot, precise shot
4: channel energy, sacred weapon +1, wis +1
5: fervor 2d6, eagle eyes (or signature skill: perception)
6: weapon spec. (longbow), deadly aim
7: sacred armor +1, stabbing shot
8: fervor 3d6, sacred weapon +2, dex +1
9: manyshot, clustered shots
10: major blessings, sacred armor +2
11: fervor 4d6, quicken blessing
12: sacred weapon +3, improved precise shot, improved critical (longbow), wis +1
13: sacred armor +3, hammer the gap
14: fervor 5d6
15: greater weapon focus (longbow), snap shot
16: sacred weapon +4, sacred armor +4, wis +1
17: fervour 6d6, improved snap shot
18: greater weapon spec (longbow), critical focus
19: sacred armor +5, staggering critical
20: aspect of war, fervor 7d6, sacred weapon +5, con +1


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Thanks AVR, I'll start my project with your Archer Warpriest. :)


FWIW, there's a typo above - initial con should be 13.


So, you want builds that are optimized for max damage at all levels? Or do you want builds that're optimized for damage, but maybe doesn't shine at all levels? So that you can compare the maximum damage out-put with your own characters' as a benchmark?
Remember that you need to take into account your to-hit ratio.
EDIT: Depending on your answer, I'll contribute.


If we are going to do this we should set a scaling AC, Saves and SR and set it up as 3 rounds of combat starting 40ft apart. The NPC will be simulated as charging ranged/casters if they do not close. If they have a significant advantage in the surprise round they get a standard action before the start.

For purposes of save or suck just calculate the odds of a failed save. And it will take x number of castings before it will hit.

Thinking AC of 14+level,touch AC 12+0.33xlevel, Saves 6+0.5xlevel, SR 5+level, resistances to the main 4: 0.5xlevel, attack 2+level, damage 5+0.5xlevel and consider iteratives at 6,11,16.

Those are not super strong values, lieutenants not mooks or BBEGs, so we should have a curve favoring higher to hit, DCs and spell pen which do not easily show up in DPR calculations.

Bonus difficulty: There are 5 of these fights without ability recharges but full HP each time.

Hour per level and 10 minutes per level can be on but minutes and rounds need to be cast.


I can maybe show you better than tell you.

Kineticist (Aether)

The idea being that a person will go to the site and compare their damage and stuff to that of an optimized character. It gives them a 'feel' of what's missing, what needs changing, etc. I started with my own character, but it isn't optimized, and I'll add feats and such as I progress. There will be a navigation panel on the left which will let you pick by build, so we can have Paladin - Archer and then a Paladin - Board and Sword, and follow with a Paladin - TWF, etc...

Then you just pick the level you want (after having picked the build you want) and compare numbers. :) So, it's important that we know feats, magic items, etc... as well as an explanation as to where numbers come from (such as RapidShot/ManyShot) and how to play (such as Mobility/Combat Reflexes).


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Question... How does an auto kill count for DPR? If I could show you how in a single turn I could kill a character 95% of the time with a save or die spell how does this rate?


If the community would consider it a 'good' build, regardless of level, then it belongs in the collection. If you need to wait til like level 16 to be at all effective, then it probably doesn't belong in the collection.


Have you looked up the DPR Olympics?

They pretty much cover what you are looking for I would imagine.


Sorry, the who what? Is this a thread here?


Skylancer4 wrote:

Have you looked up the DPR Olympics?

They pretty much cover what you are looking for I would imagine.

Not very well, I think. Seems Sphynx is looking for optimized DPR for each class at each level, and the DPR Olympics is very thin on stuff like single-classed witches or vanilla bards, and most of the builds also have a very strong focus on performing well in the highly hypothetical "one blob of tofu-opponent faced alone in a huge open field"-scenario and at the specific level at which they're measured.

Which is also why I also why I wonder what is expected to be gleaned from having such example builds, since they would still be designed to show hypothetical DPR potential, while what Sphynx actually seems to be looking for is some kind of measure of optimized actual in-game effectiveness/power. Something along the lines of:

"Amount of mechanical usefulness the build provides to its party in various commonly occurring types of challenges and situations."

@ Sphynx: Is this true?

If so, just like Mellok hinted at in his post, the above is of course in most cases something very different and much more complex than solo DPR numbers vs. typical CR=level defenses in a vacuum. Thankfully, whatever "the most optimized party ever" is, it's not something like a bunch of synthesist summoners focusing solely on their charge or firearm DPR (though such a party may very well win a "party needing the least number of turns to kill all opposition"-award in many combat scenarios), and similarly a party of DPR-focused two-handed fighters would be absolutely awful, despite their very high consistent DPR on paper. Instead, a truly mechanically optimized party during most levels and in most games would probably be something like be a bunch of conjuration wizards, perhaps accompanied by a caster-focused cleric, all having pathetic DPR numbers in comparison.

Sphynx wrote:
Similarly, things like Summons, which people claim are the best way to do magic, explaining how it's better...

The answer to this question illustrates the above very well, I believe. In short, the summoning is extremely powerful because of two reasons:

1. It's way more versatile than any other spell category and typically any other action available to a PC for the same cost in time and other resources. Summoning can be virtually anything, for example DPR by summoning DPR-focused creatures, scouting/detection by summoning creatures with rare senses (scent, blindsight, tremorsense etc), mobility by summoning fast climbing/flying/swimming/teleporting/earth-gliding/whatever creatures, defense by summoning durable blocking meat-shield types of creatures, and even other spells by summoning creatures with SLAs. Whatever the problem is, a summoned creature can help you solve it, not rarely more efficiently than any other option available to PCs.
2. Summoning provides one or more additional party members, which notably grants extra actions per round, but also passive basic advantages simply by being an additional threat to the party's enemies, having hp and taking up space.

Summoning would be the most powerful type of magic even if summoned creatures had their DPR numbers halved. It just so happens that DPR, in comparison to the many other factors which contribute to real-game efficiency/power, is relatively easily measured and illustrated in a vacuum and has a value that is easily understood. And of course, it doesn't hurt that DPR is affected by a huge number of player options one may toy with, something which can be seen in the enormous variation in DPR numbers different builds have.

If you're looking for the above actual in-game effectiveness, I think the only way of measuring it is by putting each of the builds into a suitable "typical" party and have the party running through a gauntlet of common but very different level-appropriate challenges. Which would of course be extremely time-consuming and still not necessarily provide much answers applicable to specific parties and games.

That said, simple vacuum DPR numbers can of course tell you quite a bit about how good a DPR-focused PC is at doing his/her combat "thing". It's just that this is not very relevant for PC's that don't focus on DPR and may often not be applicable to particular parties/situations/games/groups.

If you haven't already, I strongly suggest you read the first four posts by JaronK in this thread. It deals with the relative power of classes in D&D 3.5e and explains his now famous "Tier System for Classes", which is highly applicable to PF as well. I believe JaronK's examples and reasoning clearly illustrates what actual in-game power is and also how much a PC's DPR numbers actually affect that power. And it's a good and enlightening read in many other regards as well.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
avr wrote:
Some people will gladly take some pain in order to be better later.

Making that choice however, may ensure that you won't be around for "later".


I posted a Warpriest build on this thread on August 12 that is a pretty high DPR Build. I multiclass extensively, but the build I gave should work pretty well even with no dipping.

Warpriest, What is it Good For?

The basic idea is that you acquire lots of Natural Attacks, take Weapon Focus for each one, and then you do your Warpriest Sacred Weapon Damage on all those attacks.

You can get a lot of Natural Attacks: Start as a Tengu and get Claws and a Bite. Get a Helm of the Mammoth Lord and get a Gore Attack. Get a Tentacle Cloak and get 2 Tentacle Attacks. Take 1 level in White Haired Witch and get a Hair Attack.

The Tentacles and the Hair have the Grab Ability (pretty much). That means a free Grapple Check with every hit. Wear Armor with Armor Spikes, and you get to do Armor Spike Damage every time you score with the Grapple. Take Weapon Focus Armor Spikes, and your Armor Spikes do your Sacred Weapon Damage. Acquire Anaconda Coils (Belt Wondrous Item), and you gain the Constrict Ability. Take the Final Embrace Feat, and you get Constrict full-on, doing your Sacred Weapon Damage. Take the Hamatula Strike Feat, and your Bite and Gore get in on the Grapple/Constrict/Spike fun, too. Take Snake Style, and Feral Combat Training, and so will your Claws. And--why not--make Unarmed Strikes, too.

So you get to apply your Warpriest Damage to Gore, Bite, 2 Claws, Hair, 2 Tentacles, and an Unarmed strike: 8 attacks. Each one gets a Free Grapple with Constrict, and Armor Spike damage. So that's like 24 attacks that do base 2d8 at level 20 + whatever bonuses you can get like Bull Strength, Amulet of Mighty Fists, Weapon Specialization, etc. You can also buff yourself with size increases like Strong Jaw, Righteous Might, and Lead Blades.


If you acquire a Quickdraw, Throwing Shield, take the Quickdraw Feat, and acquire a Blinkback Belt, you have a set up a Free Action attacking loop that can let you theoretically do infinite damage.

It won't in practice. The Core Rulebook specifically calls for GMs limiting the number of Free Actions allowed just for the purpose of preventing players from abusing the system in this way. But if your character is lagging behind the rest of your party's, you have grounds to press your GM to allow you to get away with it to such a degree that you are on par with the other PCs.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
So you get to apply your Warpriest Damage to Gore, Bite, 2 Claws, Hair, 2 Tentacles, and an Unarmed strike: 8 attacks.

Pssst! You forgot your poisonous tail... ;)

Maybe you also wanna grab those two levels of alchemist and the Extra Discovery feat you left back with your other limbs holding your Str-boosting mutagen?

(Speaking of, I think the tentacle cloak is a poor investment before very high levels since it only works during one minute per day while still being relatively expensive.)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

This is it. This is where I show the world how crazy I really am.

I'll post a few examples when I get home. I must have at least 4 builds written up at every level. Don't remember if they're all DPR-focused though.


upho wrote:
Pssst! You forgot your poisonous tail... ;)

I didn't know about the tail: cool!

upho wrote:
Maybe you also wanna grab those two levels of alchemist and the Extra Discovery feat you left back with your other limbs holding your Str-boosting mutagen?

The build I linked to on the Warpriest thread does call for some levels of Alchemist, but the OP was asking for a single class build, so I wasn't emphasizing that. Since I really like working Snake Fang into my builds, I was thinking the Dex Mutagen would be even better than the St Mutagen. With an Attack of Opportunity Feature worked in, +4 Dex yields a potential of 2 extra attacks/round and since it triggers when someone attacks and misses, you want all the AC you can get (You do anyway, now even more!). It's hard to say: there's some math to do.

upho wrote:
(Speaking of, I think the tentacle cloak is a poor investment before very high levels since it only works during one minute per day while still being relatively expensive.)

Fair to say. The Tentacle Cloak was more of an afterthought. If I want a character with Tentacles, I dip 4 levels in Druid, take Shaping Focus, and Wildshape into a Giant Octopus, gaining Grab and Constrict automatically.


upho wrote:

what Sphynx actually seems to be looking for is some kind of measure of optimized actual in-game effectiveness/power. Something along the lines of:

"Amount of mechanical usefulness the build provides to its party in various commonly occurring types of challenges and situations."

@ Sphynx: Is this true?

It can be true. :P As with the Guides, I hope to generate a nice selection that people can go to and compare their characters against. DPR is obviously one of the more important characteristics of an optimized character. However, if a Monk for example, is very good at getting behind the enemies and getting flanking bonuses, obviously, even if the damage is lower, the bonuses provided to allies and such make it a higher DPR.

What I want is for a person to go to the database, pull up a monk of their level, and see either that their DPR is very low in comparison (and through reverse engineering, figure out why), or if their DPR is equitable, to be able to see that a "hidden" virtue of a certain build is the flanking bonuses, explained on the sheet I'll generate.

Basically the question should be answerable by simply asking, if you were making a character of that class, what -must- you have to be considered effective. At the higher levels, that becomes slightly less important, but people, I think, will appreciate a bar by which to compare their characters against, or to get some ideas of where to go with the character in coming levels.

While the guides are good for seeing feats and such that compliment a class, I personally find it easier to understand an example, such as seeing for myself just how much extra damage is gained by combining Rapid Shot and Manyshot for example, so that when I'm selecting my feats, I realize that those feats are a bit higher requisite for a mechanically sound character, than taking Skill Boost or Deft Hands. :P


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I didn't know about the tail: cool!

You're welcome! It sure does add some extra sting (pun intended) to just about any melee build, though natural attackers will of course appreciate it the most. And best of all: you get to keep it tucked between your legs if you've feel beaten, or wag it vigorously when you're excited!

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
upho wrote:
Maybe you also wanna grab those two levels of alchemist and the Extra Discovery feat you left back with your other limbs holding your Str-boosting mutagen?
The build I linked to on the Warpriest thread does call for some levels of Alchemist, but the OP was asking for a single class build, so I wasn't emphasizing that. Since I really like working Snake Fang into my builds, I was thinking the Dex Mutagen would be even better than the St Mutagen. With an Attack of Opportunity Feature worked in, +4 Dex yields a potential of 2 extra attacks/round and since it triggers when someone attacks and misses, you want all the AC you can get (You do anyway, now even more!). It's hard to say: there's some math to do.

Oh, I have to admit I didn't read up on the details, my bad... Anyhow, considering Snake Fang and maximizing AoOs, it might be a good idea to go Dex rather than Str. Hmmm... If your "DPR-preacher" build's AC ends up making the typical miss probability of a CR 20 melee capable monster (like a Balor) very high, meaning you'd be above say AC 50, and your AoOs are equally likely to hit, I guess you should go for Dex.

If it's not that kind of clear-cut case I'm much less certain, since the increased hit chance and damage of a higher Str might very well make a bigger average DPR difference on the medium-bab Warpriest than the potential extra attacks. But yeah, you'd need to do the boring math to know where the actual line between good and bad is.

Then there's also the decreased reliability of AoOs triggered by enemy actions, and the decreased usefulness of out-of-turn AoOs on a DPR build. I mean in practice, the extra attacks will have a tendency ending up feeling pretty wasted, since they're typically triggered by a creature that will (should) most likely die on your upcoming turn regardless! :D

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
upho wrote:
(Speaking of, I think the tentacle cloak is a poor investment before very high levels since it only works during one minute per day while still being relatively expensive.)
Fair to say. The Tentacle Cloak was more of an afterthought. If I want a character with Tentacles, I dip 4 levels in Druid, take Shaping Focus, and Wildshape into a Giant Octopus, gaining Grab and Constrict automatically.

Well, there's no arguing with the tentacled might of the awesome Druidopus (and even less with its more or less raging mad relatives)!

But I still think having just a grab-boosted tentacle or two sound like it could work great on a WP-based build. Especially if the WP is considered human and thus able to pull off Martial Versatility shenanigans like getting free FCT to go with his/her appendages of holy hugging and sacred suction, and especially if dipping alchemist anyways.

But most importantly, having just one permanent basic tentacle can do wonders for the build's public image, even if very rarely displayed when grown into a size beyond a medium length and girth...

I mean, even LG priests must, at some basic level, absolutely loathe their faiths each time they're reminded of being not just eternally stuck with the "fat cherub" kind of design themes, but also of being eternally kept from to pimpin' their looks in that wickedly bad-a§§ rubbery black Cthulhu-style!

(Ó_Ò)


Sphynx wrote:
upho wrote:

what Sphynx actually seems to be looking for is some kind of measure of optimized actual in-game effectiveness/power. Something along the lines of:

"Amount of mechanical usefulness the build provides to its party in various commonly occurring types of challenges and situations."

@ Sphynx: Is this true?

It can be true. :P As with the Guides, I hope to generate a nice selection that people can go to and compare their characters against.

Well, I totally agree with you that this would be nice. I think this forum could use a lot more (Practical-Op) example builds, preferably gathered in conveniently categorized collections.

Sphynx wrote:
DPR is obviously one of the more important characteristics of an optimized character.

For DPR-focused builds, certainly. But for all of the many highly optimized (and often more powerful) builds with other focuses? Absolutely not. Measuring the DPR of such builds would largely be a waste of time if the goal is to give people benchmark numbers, since the DPR say little to nothing about these builds' effectiveness. And for some of these classes/focuses, I suspect it might actually be less inappropriate to apply the reverse correlation between a build's theoretical DPR numbers and its effectiveness - the less DPR a build has, the more optimized and powerful it is!

No, I'm not joking.

Sphynx wrote:

However, if a Monk for example, is very good at getting behind the enemies and getting flanking bonuses, obviously, even if the damage is lower, the bonuses provided to allies and such make it a higher DPR.

What I want is for a person to go to the database, pull up a monk of their level, and see either that their DPR is very low in comparison (and through reverse engineering, figure out why), or if their DPR is equitable, to be able to see that a "hidden" virtue of a certain build is the flanking bonuses, explained on the sheet I'll generate.

Basically the question should be answerable by simply asking, if you were making a character of that class, what -must- you have to be considered effective. At the higher levels, that becomes slightly less important, but people, I think, will appreciate a bar by which to compare their characters against, or to get some ideas of where to go with the character in coming levels.

Helping players with stuff like trouble-shooting problem builds and learning how to identify key mechanical components sounds like very noble goals, but unfortunately I also think it's unrealistic. Now I'd love to be proven wrong and I really hate being the grumpy pessimist party-pooper, but I honestly cannot see how those goals can actually be achieved in practice. Even if limiting this to DPR-focused builds, there are tons of unknown factors that not only shape what the actual DPR numbers look like, but even more importantly what the player's and his/her group's expectations are.

As an example of how much such expectations may vary between games and groups, at my table of old grognards, a constant DPR/striker build is expected to roughly:

1. at least be able to consistently one-shot a typical enemy of a CR equal to the build's level at most levels

2. no later than approximately 10th level have that DPR also in most turns when the build start with the nearest target being more than say 30 ft. away (so some kind of pounce and high mobility is virtually a must for melee strikers)

3. not be based on a martial class designed by Paizo, as those only rarely are able to fulfill the above expectations

This is obviously more powerful than whatever a PC of equal level is expected to be capable of according to whatever guidelines/rules/hunches Paizo's adventure designers use. So in a game where the group expects the party to be reasonably challenged by level-appropriate non-modified Paizo adventures, the striker from my table would be considered horribly overpowered, if not flat out broken. Similarly, it's definitely not expected by my group that a striker should be capable of, say, one-shotting the tarrasque (AC 45, 525 HP) even at 20th level, or that the build should be capable of advanced movement modes like teleports or fast flight way before 10th level. That would instead likely be considered borderline broken, or at least very overpowered and disruptive in my group. Still, that level of optimization would be expected in some of the, IMO, most outrageously high-powered games I've seen played and discussed with those who play them.

And basically all builds found on this forum that are generally considered to be good optimization example builds would turn most level-appropriate Paizo adventures into cakewalks (not to mention the small pile of rubble a level-appropriate Paizo adventure would be reduced into if an entire party of such builds would play it).

How do you intend to adjust for this? And for stuff like wealth, varying access to magic items, different party sizes with wildly different strengths and weaknesses, type of adventure played and type of opponents commonly being faced, etc, etc. And again, this is only me looking at the relatively minor issues I can see popping up if this was limited to only DPR-focused builds. I don't even see a set of measurements that could somehow incorporate the huge variations included in the builds with other focuses.

Related Stuff:
It could actually turn out to be counter-productive to list the DPR numbers of non-DPR builds as it unavoidably puts undue focus on a factor largely irrelevant to the build type's effectiveness. And presenting those numbers as some kind of valid "golden standard" players could/should use to determine how optimized their own builds are... Well, I think that would just be mean.

I might of course be reading a bit too much between the lines of what you've actually been posting in this thread, but it seems to me you're grossly overestimating the importance of DPR in general, and how universal that importance is for any kind of optimized build in particular.

Anyhow, provided a build is an example of practical-op with their basics in reasonably decent shape, I think listing vacuum DPR is about as good a measure of optimization as it reasonably gets for DPR-focused builds, and I'd be happy to spend some spare time helping out with building such a collection. Provided my pretty mediocre "Killah char-op skillz" are up for it... :P

Just don't expect the DPR numbers listed for one damage-focused build to necessarily be anyway near comparable to those of another due to the many ways of measuring DPR.

And I would really recommend that you consider replacing DPR with whatever other more appropriate measurements available for builds with other focuses and try to find a very flexible presentation template/format. Or simply leave such builds out and limit the collection to "optimized example DPR builds". Though I think that would be a bit sad since DPR gets too much attention on these boards anyways, while optimized builds focused on other stuff are much more rare in my (very limited) experience.

Spontaneous Wishlist of Non-DPR Builds:
It would be nice to have example builds of the famously powerful concepts that are rarely seen but often talked about in discussions about for example class imbalance, such as the pointy-hatted control-obsessed conjuration wizard god. And of course the classic concepts that just happens to be potentially mechanically effective as well, such as the long-nosed witch debuffer flinging hexes and bad language all over while cackling with glee, the lethally enchanting and ruthlessly dominating sorcerer, or the more silly stuff like that adventuring horde of mixed critters supposedly including an actual PC known as a Master Summoner. Not to mention the really rarely (or never) seen effective builds, like a martial focusing on something other than damage(!) and actually remains good enough at its combat job to stay relevant even in higher levels...? A non-damage focused effective martial build would of course be total blasphemy, I know, but wouldn't it be fun if it actually could be done?

(Some such martial builds can actually be easily realized using Path of War content, while I think others are probably still impossible or, like truly effective control builds, just barely possible and very difficult to build IME.)

Sphynx wrote:
While the guides are good for seeing feats and such that compliment a class, I personally find it easier to understand an example, such as seeing for myself just how much extra damage is gained by combining Rapid Shot and Manyshot for example, so that when I'm selecting my feats, I realize that those feats are a bit higher requisite for a mechanically sound character, than taking Skill Boost or Deft Hands. :P

I actually think most guides are short on example builds or completely lack them. And yeah, I can see what you're looking for, but unfortunately the PF rules are not only way too complex to provide that kind of "enter party build stats here, collect accurate analysis there"-system, the "rules" are also often varying wildly in practice because of less immediately obvious stuff, such as the mentioned varying optimization and power level expectations.


I like where you're evolving this to, Upho, and I can definitely see the project expanding into more than DPR. Maybe we start with DPR, and progress further as we move along. Something along the lines of (Left-panel navigation bar):

Damage Per Round Optimizations:
* Barbarian - Two Weapon Fighting
* Barbarian - Thrown Weapons
* Barbarian - Unarmed with Natural Weapons
* Etc, etc...

Battlefield Controller Optimization:
* <insert character link>
* Etc, etc...

Summons and Companions Optimization:
* Cleric <...>
* Druid <...>
* Summoner <..>
* Wizard <...>
* Etc, etc...

And of course, each line is a link that will open a character sheet. Allowing us to get a good listing of all 'good' character builds.


avr wrote:

An example of a build for an archer warpriest

Spoiler:
Half-elf rather than human, because seeing farther, especially in darkness, may matter for an archer quite a bit
20-point build: str 14, dex 19, con 12, int 10, wis 13, cha 7
Assuming that blessings which don't say 'projectile weapons with this property apply it to their ammo' or something similar, don't.
Assuming that the +1/6 of a combat feat FCB is not part of the bonus feats class feature, so doesn't get its benefits, & it can be started at level 1.
Warpriest of Shelyn
1: sacred weapon, blessings (air, charm), weapon focus (longbow), point-blank shot, skill focus (perception)
2: fervor 1d6
3: rapid shot, precise shot
4: channel energy, sacred weapon +1, wis +1
5: fervor 2d6, eagle eyes (or signature skill: perception)
6: weapon spec. (longbow), deadly aim
7: sacred armor +1, stabbing shot
8: fervor 3d6, sacred weapon +2, dex +1
9: manyshot, clustered shots
10: major blessings, sacred armor +2
11: fervor 4d6, quicken blessing
12: sacred weapon +3, improved precise shot, improved critical (longbow), wis +1
13: sacred armor +3, hammer the gap
14: fervor 5d6
15: greater weapon focus (longbow), snap shot
16: sacred weapon +4, sacred armor +4, wis +1
17: fervour 6d6, improved snap shot
18: greater weapon spec (longbow), critical focus
19: sacred armor +5, staggering critical
20: aspect of war, fervor 7d6, sacred weapon +5, con +1

Ok, I have begun with adding this character, but there are a few things that will likely need to be included in its makeup, including the obvious things, like when/which magic items, as well as how it works, what the DPR should be per level (or how it's calculated so that I can show it), etc.

Also, having some questions, like how there are 2 feats at 6th level, and how Rapid/Many shot wouldn't improve the DPR moreso than some of the selected feats?


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I posted a Warpriest build on this thread on August 12 that is a pretty high DPR Build. I multiclass extensively, but the build I gave should work pretty well even with no dipping.

Warpriest, What is it Good For?

The basic idea is that you acquire lots of Natural Attacks, take Weapon Focus for each one, and then you do your Warpriest Sacred Weapon Damage on all those attacks.

You can get a lot of Natural Attacks: Start as a Tengu and get Claws and a Bite. Get a Helm of the Mammoth Lord and get a Gore Attack. Get a Tentacle Cloak and get 2 Tentacle Attacks. Take 1 level in White Haired Witch and get a Hair Attack.

The Tentacles and the Hair have the Grab Ability (pretty much). That means a free Grapple Check with every hit. Wear Armor with Armor Spikes, and you get to do Armor Spike Damage every time you score with the Grapple. Take Weapon Focus Armor Spikes, and your Armor Spikes do your Sacred Weapon Damage. Acquire Anaconda Coils (Belt Wondrous Item), and you gain the Constrict Ability. Take the Final Embrace Feat, and you get Constrict full-on, doing your Sacred Weapon Damage. Take the Hamatula Strike Feat, and your Bite and Gore get in on the Grapple/Constrict/Spike fun, too. Take Snake Style, and Feral Combat Training, and so will your Claws. And--why not--make Unarmed Strikes, too.

So you get to apply your Warpriest Damage to Gore, Bite, 2 Claws, Hair, 2 Tentacles, and an Unarmed strike: 8 attacks. Each one gets a Free Grapple with Constrict, and Armor Spike damage. So that's like 24 attacks that do base 2d8 at level 20 + whatever bonuses you can get like Bull Strength, Amulet of Mighty Fists, Weapon Specialization, etc. You can also buff yourself with size increases like Strong Jaw, Righteous Might, and Lead Blades.

I'll have to reformat it all, but I think we can use this. However, is this really the best optimization we can do with natural weapons? I ask because the thread is under Warpriests, meaning it might have been intended as a way to optimize a warpriest, as opposed to being a way to optimize natural attacks (I don't know, I've never looked at Warpriests). I would very much like an optimized level 20 build for natural attack usage, and if this is the build, I'll work it into the page.


2 feats at levels 6, 12 & 18 comes from the human favored class bonus, which half-elves can take. As mentioned at the top 'Assuming that the +1/6 of a combat feat FCB is not part of the bonus feats class feature, so doesn't get its benefits, & it can be started at level 1.'

Rapid shot is in the build at the earliest point a warpriest can take it, level 3. Manyshot is in at level 9 - you could swap it with weapon spec. at level 6. Since the warpriest only gets to treat its level as BAB for the prereqs of its bonus feats and not for others, taking manyshot at level 7 is not an option.

How it works - air blessing lets you shoot anything from 5' away to 1100' without range penalties or AoOs.The many feats of a warpriest let it get practically all the archery feats, and sacred weapon/fervor'd buffs more than makes up for not actually having full BAB. There are some more details but that's the heart of it.

I haven't actually calculated DPR or an exact item list. I'll get on the latter first.


Ok, I think I got the data correct, just need magic items, and dpr calcs. You can see it here: http://gryphynx.eu.pn/Pathfinder/index.php

If you see any mistakes, please let me know. :)


At level 20, survival become more important than DPR I think. Saves, AC, means to negate full attacks, etc. If you don't optimize your defenses, you're stuck playing a loosing game of rocket tag.

Barbarian can definitely do this well between Come and Get Me, Dazing/Pushing Assault, Flesh Wound, and Invulnerable Rager, especially once they get the ability to rage cycle. With investment into Superstitious they gain rather decent saves, too. They are probably the least reliant on magic item martial class, which is good when you have to deal with Mage's Disjunction/Anti Magic Field all the time.

Of course, at level 20, nothing beats a Wizard. At that level it's almost impossible to even target you without GM fiat.


BTW, this isn't an attempt to show my character (Aether/Air), as I will be removing that once anyone proposes a more efficient DPR for a ranged kineticist, which I assume will be a Fire/Fire build. :)


Sphynx wrote:
However, is this really the best optimization we can do with natural weapons? I ask because the thread is under Warpriests, meaning it might have been intended as a way to optimize a warpriest, as opposed to being a way to optimize natural attacks (I don't know, I've never looked at Warpriests). I would very much like an optimized level 20 build for natural attack usage, and if this is the build, I'll work it into the page.

I think it just might be right up there with the best Natural Attack build you can make. There has been recent errata published for Ultimate Combat that nerfs the Feral Combat Training Feat. It was recently the case that if you had Feral Combat Training, you could apply Monk Unarmed Strike Damage to your Natural Attack Damage, but that is no longer the case. That leaves us with Warpriest Sacred Weapon for increasing your Natural Attack Base Damage.

The Errata also diminishes the MOMS Monk, so that part of my build needs to be updated as well.

One of the caveats you imposed upon this thread is that the builds were to be single-classed, and I offered my suggestion for Warpriest. To REALLY optimize Natural Attacks, I would dip into Druid and take Shaping Focus, Wildshaping into an Allosaurus, a Megaraptor, a Dire Tiger, or a Giant Octopus.

You can get Natural attacks by level 2 Druid if you take Animal Totem Shaman archetypes, so you can be a Human and still get natural attacks. As a Human, you can take Martial Versatility and apply Weapon Focus--and therefore Sacred Weapon--to all your Natural Attacks, regardless of what form you take.

Natural attacks you get from the Mammoth Helm, the level in WHWitch, or the Tentacle Cloak still apply because those are magical, not dependent upon your form. You lose your Armor when you Wildshape into an Animal, so you would have Barding made for you to fit your favorite Animal forms, Lamellar Horn or Stone Plate, I suppose. You might prevail upon an ally to cast Swift Girding or take a level in something that gives it to you.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I don't have time to work up a whole build but for pure dps it's tough to beat the two-handed fighter archetype*... If they only attack 1/round they can auto-crit (and should connect 95% of the time against almost any enemy)- with a tetsubo they can pretty easily hit for 5d10+300 or more.

*it can be beat, but I can't think of anyone who can do it as effortlessly (and most couldn't do it literally every round all day long)


nate lange wrote:

I don't have time to work up a whole build but for pure dps it's tough to beat the two-handed fighter archetype*... If they only attack 1/round they can auto-crit (and should connect 95% of the time against almost any enemy)- with a tetsubo they can pretty easily hit for 5d10+300 or more.

*it can be beat, but I can't think of anyone who can do it as effortlessly (and most couldn't do it literally every round all day long)

Do you have a build to show for this? :)


Sphynx wrote:
I'll have to reformat it all, but I think we can use this. However, is this really the best optimization we can do with natural weapons? I ask because the thread is under Warpriests, meaning it might have been intended as a way to optimize a warpriest, as opposed to being a way to optimize natural attacks (I don't know, I've never looked at Warpriests).
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
One of the caveats you imposed upon this thread is that the builds were to be single-classed, and I offered my suggestion for Warpriest. To REALLY optimize Natural Attacks, I would dip into Druid and take Shaping Focus, Wildshaping into an Allosaurus, a Megaraptor, a Dire Tiger, or a Giant Octopus.

This relates to some of the problems/challenges with this build collection I mentioned earlier. In short, even if you set up a framework with limitations for the builds and a scenario for how the DPR is measured, the "best" builds will be optimized for performing in that specific framework and scenario. That does not necessarily mean those top DPR builds will be very good in a real game, as they might rarely or never actually achieve those numbers in reality and/or suffer from glaring weaknesses (weak levels, poor durability, mobility and/or senses, dependence on specific items, etc). So I think DPR should be listed for several different scenarios.

For example, in most cases, I think DPR is measured against the typical target defense values of an enemy with a CR equal to the level of the build. But when measured against those defenses it can get kinda stupid, especially in higher levels - I think even some single-classed builds can, during several rounds/day, achieve DPR numbers above twice the max hp value of such an enemy, meaning more than half of the DPR capacity would in many cases be wasted in a real game.

My suggestion is that each build should include a number of important DPR measures, for example combinations of:

  • DPR when starting 1st turn adjacent to enemy
  • DPR when starting 1st turn 60 ft. away from enemy in darkness (and/or difficult terrain and/or with allied and/or enemy creatures positioned in between) that can detect the PC build (a common scenario, as the range of many creatures' special senses like darkvision or lifesense is 60 ft., and combat often starts with combatants in less than optimal positions, often in relatively cramped spaces and tricky environments)
  • DPR when starting 1st turn further away (say 130 ft. or more) from a flying enemy (also a common higher-level scenario)
  • DPR vs. several tightly grouped enemies
  • Average peak DPR number during a (predefined) number of rounds, including notes on the number of rounds the build needs to buff itself for that number and for how many of the predefined rounds the peak lasts
  • Minimum constant DPR without any buffs
  • DPR with favorite buffs from allied PCs
  • DPR vs. BBEG enemy (perhaps CR = level +5)
It's also worth noting that in many parties and many scenarios in a real game, the PC actually responsible for most of the party's total DPR is a mediocre damage-dealer but a great buffer (often a wizard, sorcerer, bard, skald or summoner).

Most importantly, even single-classed DPR builds can achieve numbers that are both way above what is needed in many games and are also likely to be considered OP or broken in many groups. Which means those builds would actually be examples of really poor practical optimization! So it might also be a good idea to set up a target number for each DPR measurement scenario and simply state if the build reaches that target or not. Maybe even disqualify builds with a DPR way above that as they would just be considered to be ruining the fun in many games.

Sphynx wrote:
I would very much like an optimized level 20 build for natural attack usage, and if this is the build, I'll work it into the page.

As Scott touched upon in his post, a single-class build won't ever achieve as high DPR as a similar build that multiclasses can. And in most scenarios and levels, nothing can compete with the DPR numbers of builds based on the synthesist summoner. So maybe it would be a good idea to start looking as synth builds?


Sphynx wrote:
nate lange wrote:

I don't have time to work up a whole build but for pure dps it's tough to beat the two-handed fighter archetype*... If they only attack 1/round they can auto-crit (and should connect 95% of the time against almost any enemy)- with a tetsubo they can pretty easily hit for 5d10+300 or more.

*it can be beat, but I can't think of anyone who can do it as effortlessly (and most couldn't do it literally every round all day long)

Do you have a build to show for this? :)

This is a great example of a build that can get high DPR numbers in a few particular scenarios and levels - in this case notably when the minimum constant DPR is measured at 20th level in rounds when the build starts a turn with an enemy within melee reach. Having a very high attack bonus, this kind of build can also excel when measured against high-CR BBEGs, as its DPR won't be as affected by the higher defense values as the DPR of many other single-class builds.

If you instead for example measure peak DPR and/or in turns when the build starts further away from the enemy, the 2-handed fighter's numbers are much less impressive even at 20th level, especially when compared to the DPR of for example a Pummeling un-monk or a pouncing barbarian or primalist bloodrager during their 45+ rage rounds/day.


First, for your list of categories... the objective is less about trying to create a complete list of every optimal build, and more about an example that a newbie who is looking through these multi-chapter guides might want to see. If I'm starting a character and want to build a Barbarian, I want to look at the guides, and also an actual character build so that not only can I compare my character against it, but so that I can see how it will progress. The idea being to provide future players with a more visible guide than the existing ones.

So, while I can see that some Fighter builds would be better at base-contact as opposed to having to charge, I think the end result is the same. A character that can be a template for someone who prefers one or the other, and just replaces a feat here or there, and in the process see how much it weakens/strengthens their character.

Anyhows, I only want to start with the single-class builds, I sincerely look forward to adding in multi-class builds that will expand upon single-class. I very much look forward to seeing anyone post the best DPR scandal/scoundrel they can muster for Natural Attacks, and will add it in even before finishing the single-class, just because I think it's something that people might look for, and want to see.


nate lange wrote:

I don't have time to work up a whole build but for pure dps it's tough to beat the two-handed fighter archetype*... If they only attack 1/round they can auto-crit (and should connect 95% of the time against almost any enemy)- with a tetsubo they can pretty easily hit for 5d10+300 or more.

*it can be beat, but I can't think of anyone who can do it as effortlessly (and most couldn't do it literally every round all day long)

I had been thinking along the lines of a 2 handed fighter archetype with Great Cleave and Great Sunder using a Maul of the Titans to do triple damage when Sundering, and that triple damage residual would pass to the wielder.

The big problem with this is that the Maul of the Titans is a very un-optimal magic item, a throwback from 1st Edition. You'd really do best by customizing a magic item, taking Master Craftsman and Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

The Maul of the Titans was created before the Earthbreaker Hammer was created. That's why it's a +3 Greatclub instead of a +3 Earthbreaker. That's easily fixed. I'll put the enchantments on an Earthbreaker instead. An Adamantine Earthbreaker, duh.

The +3 enhancement bonus accounts for most of the item's 25,305 gp price. A +3 enhancement bonus is 3squared X 2000 = 18,000gp. If you make it +1 instead of +3, you save yourself 16,000gp. The whole thing would cost 28,040 - 16,000 = 12,040gp. Still expensive, but worth it.


For the archer warpriest above. I'll put up her buff lists tomorrow, then we can talk about how DPR should be calculated.

After doing all this I'm pretty sure a fighter or ranger archer has higher DPR at many levels, though much less survivability. It's not the BAB alone, it's that weapon training/favored enemy with gloves of duelling/instant enemy has higher bonuses unless you spend multiple rounds buffing beforehand.

changes and corrections:
The initial con is 13 and goes to 14 at L20, sans items.

Improved Precise Shot isn't the FCB feat, Improved Critical is. There's a +11 BAB prereq which needs the warpriest bonus feats class feature in order to get IPS at level 12, the FCB probably doesn't get the benefits of that feature.

The base damage of a medium longbow is 1d8. Strength bonus will apply from level 2 but not at L1.

The character needs traits. Fate's Favored is obvious, Killer would work for DPR, Reactionary if initiative is going to matter.

If it matters, the character is maxing perception and knowledge (religion).

I decided that manyshot and weapon spec probably should be swapped, so please make manyshot L6, weapon spec L9.

Items
Assuming standard WBL, no more than 1/2 on any one item.
Assuming PFS legal items only.
Assuming custom and combined items are off limits.
Assuming that permanency on spells is off limits.
Assuming that less than 50 of any one type of magical ammo is off limits (largely to preserve my own sanity).
Trying to avoid massive switches from level to level.

early levels, 1-6:
L1: longbow, 40 cold iron arrows, 20 blunt silver arrows, 10 thistle arrows, battle axe, studded leather armor
L2: composite longbow (+2 Str), 40 masterwork cold iron arrows, 20 blunt silver arrows, 10 thistle arrows, 10 splintercloud arrows, holy water balm, battle axe, chain shirt
L3: masterwork composite longbow (+2 Str), 40 cold iron arrows, 20 blunt silver arrows, 10 thistle arrows, 10 splintercloud arrows, 10 adamantine arrows, holy water balm, battle axe, +1 chain shirt (arrows will be the same until late levels - named as standard arrow pack)
L4: +1 composite longbow (+2 Str), standard arrow pack, holy water balm, battle axe, +1 mithral chain shirt
L5: +1 composite longbow (+2 Str), standard arrow pack, holy water balm, belt of incredible dexterity +2, battle axe, +1 mithral chain shirt, wand of cure light wounds (CL 1)
L6: +1 composite longbow (+2 Str), standard arrow pack, holy water balm, belt of incredible dexterity +2, battle axe, +1 spell storing mithral chain shirt, wand of cure light wounds (CL 1), handy haversack, stunstone

mid-levels, 7-12:
L7: +2 adaptive composite longbow, standard arrow pack, holy water balm, belt of incredible dexterity +2, +1 spell storing mithral chain shirt, wand of cure light wounds (CL 1), handy haversack, cloak of resistance +1
L8: +2 adaptive composite longbow, standard arrow pack, holy water balm, belt of incredible dexterity +2, headband of incredible wisdom +2, +1 spell storing mithral chain shirt, wand of cure light wounds (CL 1), handy haversack, cloak of resistance +2
L9: +3 adaptive composite longbow, standard arrow pack, holy water balm, belt of incredible dexterity +2, headband of incredible wisdom +2, lesser bracers of archery, +1 spell storing mithral chain shirt, wand of cure light wounds (CL 1), handy haversack, cloak of resistance +2
L10: +3 adaptive composite longbow, standard arrow pack, holy water balm, belt of incredible dexterity +4, headband of incredible wisdom +2, lesser bracers of archery, +1 spell storing darkleaf cloth studded leather armor, ring of ferocious action, wand of cure light wounds (CL 1), handy haversack, cloak of resistance +2
L11: +4 adaptive composite longbow, standard arrow pack, holy water balm, belt of incredible dexterity +4, headband of incredible wisdom +2, lesser bracers of archery, +1 spell storing darkleaf cloth studded leather armor, ring of ferocious action, ring of protection +1, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, wand of cure light wounds (CL 1), handy haversack, cloak of resistance +2
L12: +4 adaptive composite longbow, standard arrow pack, holy water balm, belt of incredible dexterity +4, headband of incredible wisdom +2, greater bracers of archery, +1 spell storing darkleaf cloth studded leather armor, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, amulet of natural armor +1, ring of ferocious action, ring of protection +1, sandals of quick reaction, wand of cure light wounds (CL 1), handy haversack, cloak of resistance +2

late levels, 13-18:
L13: +5 adaptive composite longbow, standard arrow pack, holy water balm, belt of incredible dexterity +4, headband of incredible wisdom +2, greater bracers of archery, +1 spell storing darkleaf cloth studded leather armor, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, amulet of natural armor +1, ring of ferocious action, ring of protection +1, sandals of quick reaction, storm goggles, silver nocking point, wand of cure light wounds (CL 1), handy haversack, cloak of resistance +3
L14: +5 adaptive impervious composite longbow, standard arrow pack, holy water balm, belt of physical might +4 (str, dex), headband of incredible wisdom +2, greater bracers of archery, +1 spell storing darkleaf cloth studded leather armor, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, amulet of natural armor +1, ring of ferocious action, ring of protection +1, sandals of quick reaction, storm goggles, silver nocking point, wand of cure light wounds (CL 1), handy haversack, cloak of resistance +5
L15: +5 adaptive impervious composite longbow, standard arrow pack, holy water balm, belt of physical might +6 (str, dex), headband of incredible wisdom +2, greater bracers of archery, +1 spell storing darkleaf cloth leather armor, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, amulet of natural armor +2, ring of ferocious action, ring of protection +1, sandals of quick reaction, storm goggles, silver nocking point, wand of cure light wounds (CL 1), handy haversack, cloak of resistance +5
L16: +5 adaptive impervious composite longbow, standard arrow pack, holy water balm, belt of physical might +6 (str, dex), headband of incredible wisdom +6, ioun stone (+2 con), wayfinder, greater bracers of archery, celestial armor, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, amulet of natural armor +2, ring of ferocious action, ring of protection +2, sandals of quick reaction, storm goggles, silver nocking point, wand of cure light wounds (CL 1), handy haversack, cloak of resistance +5
L17: +5 adaptive impervious composite longbow, 2 efficient quivers, 50 +1 holy arrows, 20 thistle arrows, 20 blunt arrows, holy water balm, belt of physical might +6 (str, dex), headband of incredible wisdom +6, ioun stone (+2 con), wayfinder, greater bracers of archery, celestial armor, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, amulet of natural armor +5, ring of ferocious action, ring of protection +5, sandals of quick reaction, storm goggles, silver nocking point, wand of cure light wounds (CL 1), handy haversack, cloak of resistance +5
L18: +5 adaptive impervious composite longbow, 2 efficient quivers, 50 +1 holy arrows, 50 +1 phase locking arrows, 10 thistle arrows, 10 blunt arrows, holy water balm, belt of physical perfection +6, wayfinder, greater bracers of archery, celestial armor, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, amulet of natural armor +5, ring of ferocious action, ring of protection +5, sandals of quick reaction, storm goggles, silver nocking point, wand of cure light wounds (CL 1), handy haversack, cloak of resistance +5

endgame, 19-20:
L19: as L18, use manual of quickness of action for +4 dex
L20: as L19, use manual for +4 str, use manual for +4 wis


Sounds good. :)


I just posted a Natural Attacking, Mulitclass, Warpriest build that also incorporates Druid Wildshaping and the Human Martial Versatility Feat. Since an Erratum eliminated adding Monk Unarmed Strike Damage to natural attacks via the Feral Combat Training Feat, it also pulled the plug on a whole family of Natural Attack builds, and so I posted it principally on a thread that was devoted to that, hopefully plugging those builds back in.

WAY OF THE ANGRY BEAR GUIDE TO Bear Fisted Fighting

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