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I read several forums, including Paizo, explaining how OP is the Horizon Walker. I read class rules and I don't get it :
Favored Terrain (Ranger) : RAW gives you +2 for chosen terrain at level 3 and then, at level 8, another terrain (not saying that gives you +2) and a "+2 bonus" you can add to one of your favored terrains.
Example :
1) Favored Terrain : Swamp => it gets +2
8) add Favored Terrain : Plains to list AND got a +2 bonus to use on Swamps or Plains.
ie. your favored terrains list is
Swamp +2, Plains +2
OR Swamp +4, Plains +0
NOT Swamp +4, Plains +2 !
By RAW, favored terrain ability doesnt work the same way as favored enemy (ie. your bonus doesnt raise for every terrain as it does for enemies)
With this ability, you end up with a +2 bonus spread on your favored terrains list or 1-2 favored terrains with a good bonus (+6 to +10 let's say) and +0 to all other terrains. Terrains are situational so not an extraordinary ability if your campaign is not set in 1 or 2 terrains.
Terrain Mastery (Horizon Walker) : works the same way as ranger's ability. Same conclusion : a few terrains you mastered or a low to mid bonus for every terrain. You'll probably choose to master 1 to 3 terrains for later Terrain Dominance bonuses.
Again, in 1 to 3 terrains, you might be a force to reckon with but elsewhere, you'll probably be underwhelmed by an average fighter.
So where's the OP hit/dmg bonus you can read on so much forums (+20 or +30) you get with Terrain Dominance ?
Oh and I don't forget the rogue trick "terrain mastery". Read carefully, it says you get a +2 to one favored terrain and ability doesn't scale with levels. Not so impressive plus you lost, at least, a +1 BAB.
I read spells like Terrain Bond and Instant Enemy to get your best bonus (if you can... by RAW not so easy) on hit/dmg. Even the best bonus might not be so impressive (except if you made that choice in a one (or so) terrain focused campaign).
Hopefully, Horizon Walker strength doesnt really only on this ability. It gets a pretty cool ability to dim door which enable use of dimensional dervish chain. This is both technically and RP cool ability... and expensive (have to raise to Horizon Walker 3).
By then, with a heavy investment on mid to poor skills/feats/abilities, you get mid to poor higher abilities (except dim door trick with an even heavier investment). Is it really worth it ? Another crappy prestige class ?
It's nothing special in Pathfinder.
The reason it used to be significant is that the "Horizon Tripper" build was the best non-caster build to have in D&D 3.5e with core-only (PHB, DMG, MM) material. Dimension Door is the main reason.
Already covered but the idea of it being OP is antiquated. What it offers in straight PF is getting dimension door, or fly, or some other neat toy, for a dip that martials aren't going to hate too much.
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Oh and I don't forget the rogue trick "terrain mastery". Read carefully, it says you get a +2 to one favored terrain and ability doesn't scale with levels. Not so impressive plus you lost, at least, a +1 BAB.
It's only read that way for a week. Until the recent errata, whenever you picked another terrain mastery talent, all others also increased by +2. Basically, you put every talent into terrain mastery, every feat into extra rogue talent: terrain mastery, and you could have a +20 to +30 to hit and damage against everyone native to a terrain with Terrain Dominance. If you picked something like Urban, Mountain, and Dungeon for your three dominance terrains, that would cover easily 80% of the enemies you are likely to encounter.
Thankfully, post errata this doesn't work anymore, and Horizon Walker is no longer OP because of it.
I am quite fond of the Horizon Walker for the three level dip giving you at will dimension door. With some finagling and maybe a spot of retraining you can grab the Dimensional Agility line and be Nightcrawler. Its not the most OP thing ever by far but.... BAMF!They really nerfed Horizon Walker from my viewpoint in the translation. In 3.5 the dimension door was every 1d4 rounds. Here is it 3 + con or wis bonus or something.
I had all kinds of cool things to do with the Horizon Walker in 3.5. For example a feather fall ring. Dimension Door up, then bamf across the sky. Go up when you lose altitude.
I will say somewhere along the line I got into an argument about this in a group. Someone claimed that you could not dimension door to a spot where you could not stand or something. There was some kind of text somewhere he showed us too, though it might have been that summoning creatures thing they did to stop people from using the mount spell to drop horses on people. But we decided to allow you to dimension door into the sky if you wanted.
But in Pathfinder you can only be Nightcrawler for like 7 or 8 rounds a day or something effectively.
A way through might be to Air Walk ?
Oh and I don't forget the rogue trick "terrain mastery". Read carefully, it says you get a +2 to one favored terrain and ability doesn't scale with levels. Not so impressive plus you lost, at least, a +1 BAB.
It's only read that way for a week. Until the recent errata, whenever you picked another terrain mastery talent, all others also increased by +2. Basically, you put every talent into terrain mastery, every feat into extra rogue talent: terrain mastery, and you could have a +20 to +30 to hit and damage against everyone native to a terrain with Terrain Dominance. If you picked something like Urban, Mountain, and Dungeon for your three dominance terrains, that would cover easily 80% of the enemies you are likely to encounter.
Thankfully, post errata this doesn't work anymore, and Horizon Walker is no longer OP because of it.
Ok... and then no longer (or so) interesting, joining the long list of crappy prestige classes as I see it.
I don't understand why then maintained Prestige Classes if they are meant to be way under Standard Classes. If Pathfinder is to be only about non multiclassing and Standard Classes then just don't translate Prestige Classes from 3.5. No ?
I kinda almost feel that if pathfinder ever did a remake they'd make it so you can't multiclass at all. There'll be no prestige classes. and you pick your class and you're set for 20 levels.
Not saying it'd work. but it seems like pathfinder is dip-phobic so I wouldn't be surprised if they also tried to make it so you couldn't dip. Then they could do whatever they wanted with the classes and not worry about giving it something useful at lv1 that would get abused by some other class.
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They're just trying to avoid cases where multi-classing is clearly better than single-classing. There are still plenty of classes that give you good stuff with a one-level dip - Barbarian, Alchemist, various Oracles...
Favored Terrain (Ranger) : RAW gives you +2 for chosen terrain at level 3 and then, at level 8, another terrain (not saying that gives you +2) and a "+2 bonus" you can add to one of your favored terrains.
Example :
1) Favored Terrain : Swamp => it gets +2
8) add Favored Terrain : Plains to list AND got a +2 bonus to use on Swamps or Plains.ie. your favored terrains list is
Swamp +2, Plains +2
OR Swamp +4, Plains +0
NOT Swamp +4, Plains +2 !By RAW, favored terrain ability doesnt work the same way as favored enemy (ie. your bonus doesnt raise for every terrain as it does for enemies)
With this ability, you end up with a +2 bonus spread on your favored terrains list or 1-2 favored terrains with a good bonus (+6 to +10 let's say) and +0 to all other terrains. Terrains are situational so not an extraordinary ability if your campaign is not set in 1 or 2 terrains.
To my understanding, that example is wrong. The first favored terrain starts at +2. Whenever a ranger or horizon walker later picks a new favored terrain, the new one also starts at +2, but you additionally get to place +2 to any of the terrains chosen. So if your options would be either of the two below.
Plains +2, Swamp +4Plains +4, Swamp +2 (assume this is chosen for the next example)
If you picked Urban as your third favored terrain, the options would be
Plains +6, Swamp +2, Urban +2
Plains +4, Swamp +4, Urban +2
Plains +4, Swamp +2, Urban +4
Only rogues get a flat +2 to a single terrain now.
Favored Terrain (Ranger) : RAW gives you +2 for chosen terrain at level 3 and then, at level 8, another terrain (not saying that gives you +2) and a "+2 bonus" you can add to one of your favored terrains.
Example :
1) Favored Terrain : Swamp => it gets +2
8) add Favored Terrain : Plains to list AND got a +2 bonus to use on Swamps or Plains.ie. your favored terrains list is
Swamp +2, Plains +2
OR Swamp +4, Plains +0
NOT Swamp +4, Plains +2 !By RAW, favored terrain ability doesnt work the same way as favored enemy (ie. your bonus doesnt raise for every terrain as it does for enemies)
With this ability, you end up with a +2 bonus spread on your favored terrains list or 1-2 favored terrains with a good bonus (+6 to +10 let's say) and +0 to all other terrains. Terrains are situational so not an extraordinary ability if your campaign is not set in 1 or 2 terrains.
To my understanding, that example is wrong. The first favored terrain starts at +2. Whenever a ranger or horizon walker later picks a new favored terrain, the new one also starts at +2, but you additionally get to place +2 to any of the terrains chosen. So if your options would be either of the two below.
Plains +2, Swamp +4
Plains +4, Swamp +2 (assume this is chosen for the next example)If you picked Urban as your third favored terrain, the options would be
Plains +6, Swamp +2, Urban +2
Plains +4, Swamp +4, Urban +2
Plains +4, Swamp +2, Urban +4Only rogues get a flat +2 to a single terrain now.
I'm not so sure. RAW it explicitly say that you may choose to which terrain bonus applies :
At 8th level and every five levels thereafter, the ranger may select an additional favored terrain. In addition, at each such interval, the skill bonus and initiative bonus in any one favored terrain (including the one just selected, if so desired), increases by +2.
If a specific terrain falls into more than one category of favored terrain, the ranger's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher.
Written like that, from my point of view, it really means you get no bonus to your new select terrain by default. You just add the terrain to your list AND you get a +2 bonus to link to ONE of your favored terrain. This ability definetly doesn't work as Favored Enemy.
And if you think of it, it exactly works that way at level 1 : you get a favored terrain AND a +2 bonus to apply to ONE of your favored terrain. Having only one favored terrain makes you apply the +2 bonus to your only favored terrain.
The way you write it, Horizon Walker build would still be very good indeed but that's not what I understand (but I may be wrong of course :-))
The wording for favored enemy and favored terrain is the same.
FE At 1st level, a ranger selects a creature type from the ranger favored enemies table.
FT At 3rd level, a ranger may select a type of terrain from the Favored Terrain table.
FE At 5th level and every five levels thereafter, the ranger may select an additional favored enemy.
FT At 8th level and every five levels thereafter, the ranger may select an additional favored terrain.
FE In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy increases by +2.
FT In addition, at each such interval, the skill bonus and initiative bonus in any one favored terrain increases by +2.
The +2 to the selected foe/terrain is automatic for both. The additional +2 is just what it says; in addition to the base +2 bonus.
Look at the NPC Codex. While it has some obvious mistakes, I'd like to think two of the key class abilities of the ranger are handled properly.
Offtopic. Posting is difficult. I get repeated XSS errors. Let's see if changing formatting helps.
They're just trying to avoid cases where multi-classing is clearly better than single-classing. There are still plenty of classes that give you good stuff with a one-level dip - Barbarian, Alchemist, various Oracles...
Thw strongest hexcrafter magus depends on a 2 levek dip into WHWitch.
Oh and not all the Prestige Classes are weak.
An arcanist (VMC battle oracle) can single class into Eldritch knight pretty easy. From there shift into Arcane Archer so you can drop ranged Anti Magic Fields seems pretty legit.
Mesmerist with VMC Cleric (Loss subdomain, shadow domain) into a Umbral Agent makes you a debuff monster (your chains blind and entangle or Grapple/constrict enemies, you have a double gaze attack from mesmerist and Kyton gaze ability, and aura that makes any casters start forgetting spells. Get the dirty trick manuevers and you are layering debuffs for your martial).