| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Re: A "Hard Mode" AP...
Just run a standard AP straight (from the GM's perspective), with PCs using 10-point buy and the Slow advancement track.
Which is going to be easier to sell? (a) running members of the Peasant Mafia from 1-x; or (b) taking on some of the nastiest non-mythic stuff to see print with 25 point buy+ characters?
Why not put the chocolate in the peanut butter?
Start off the AP at 10 point buy, and every chapter that's completed, bump the points by five?
THAT would definitely lend itself to the 'average folks' becoming 'heroes of the land' beyond leveling, wouldn't it?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hey now, we're pretty bad ass!
Why Dave over dare took out 3 Grimple Gremlins with just his Pitchfork, you bet'cha!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh ya, I stabbed those little f#!$ers right in the puke maker, you bet'cha!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why not put the chocolate in the peanut butter?
Start off the AP at 10 point buy, and every chapter that's completed, bump the points by five?
THAT would definitely lend itself to the 'average folks' becoming 'heroes of the land' beyond leveling, wouldn't it?
I've never used point buy, so what's in it for me.
And no offense, but I agree with Turin, no one wants to play Peasantmaker, I'm already a peasant in real life, if I'm playing make believe I want to be cooler, not just as lame:-D
I've never used point buy, so what's in it for me.
I'm spit-balling here, because I'm not quite sure on the math...
Start with 3d6 discard nothing for the first chapter
Move to 4d6 discard lowest (or add 1d6 to each ability?) for the second
Move to 5d6 discard lowest (or add another 1d6 to each ability?) for the third?
And continue the iteration from there?
Farmfather, may your child be a masculine one...
Pass.
Pass.
How would you make it epic, then, Cap'n?
That's for the guys in Washington state to figure out, they're the one's getting paid the big bucks. :-D
For the record I don't have a problem with how the Adventure Paths are currently created, Iron Gods and Hell's Rebels are two of my favorites, and I love how they've evolved.
But this is an exercise to get to upper echelons without mythic characters, and I'd much rather have an Adventure Path set to "hard mode" then everything else that's been suggested so far.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmmmm....
Making a "HARD MODE" AP that has the PCs facing tough encounters the whole time... that's actually very very very intriguing. I don't know why this possible solution didn't occur to me before... but I'm VERY intrigued.
Heh. I get sucked into Skyrim and doing RL stuff for a bit and this thread takes off. ^^;;
In a way, I did sort of hint at this possible line of action - with the players with a base of operations from which they can function and use more of their resources during set encounters, rather than facing a half dozen CR-1 encounters in succession to slowly whittle away resources. But I will admit I didn't consider just crafting the entire AP as being harder.
The problem some people may have with this idea, of course, is that you end up with the characters leveling up more rapidly as a result. Some people like letting their players learn their characters' abilities over time and thus have a slower leveling mechanism. (This sort of thing could in theory actually work with Mythic, btw - you can have characters that only end up at say level 13 at the end but have five or so Mythic Tiers that allows them to face tougher foes in more epic battles. You'd probably have a Slow Advancement in that case, however.) On the converse side, I do have players who want to level up quickly so... you will have happy and unhappy players no matter what you do. ;)
tl;dr: Go for it! It should be interesting and enjoyable! :)
The problem some people may have with this idea, of course, is that you end up with the characters leveling up more rapidly as a result. Some people like letting their players learn their characters' abilities over time and thus have a slower leveling mechanism. (This sort of thing could in theory actually work with Mythic, btw - you can have characters that only end up at say level 13 at the end but have five or so Mythic Tiers that allows them to face tougher foes in more epic battles. You'd probably have a Slow Advancement in that case, however.) On the converse side, I do have players who want to level up quickly so... you will have happy and unhappy players no matter what you do. ;)
Surely leveling up quickly is the point? A level 1-20 AP in 6 issues is going to need rapid advancement...
I really like the idea of a hard mode AP, and look forward to seeing if the idea develops into anything.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's for the guys in Washington state to figure out, they're the one's getting paid the big bucks. :-D
{. . .}
For a few seconds I missed the "state" part and was reading that as Washington DC, and thinking No . . . Just No . . . .
I got that line from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia :-)
They're talking about trying to figure something out and Charlie says "That's for the suits in Washington to figure out"
That's one of my favorite shows.
Creative Director
|
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Re: A "Hard Mode" AP...
Just run a standard AP straight (from the GM's perspective), with PCs using 10-point buy and the Slow advancement track.
That's actually what I've been suggesting folks try when they post that "The APs are too easy!" In most cases, it turns out they're playing with 20 or 25 point buy and/or with 6 or more players. That's like asking for ten scoops of sugar in your coffee and then complaining it's too sweet.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Itsnotsosweeticanstopanytimeiwantwhatdoyoucareyourenotmysupervisor
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At times like this, there can be only music...
That's actually what I've been suggesting folks try when they post that "The APs are too easy!" In most cases, it turns out they're playing with 20 or 25 point buy and/or with 6 or more players. That's like asking for ten scoops of sugar in your coffee and then complaining it's too sweet.
I'm currently playing in a home Runelords campaign. We did 25pt buy but there are only four of us. We just got done with Hook Mountain and we're starting to 'feel' the 'weight' of the path, as it were. This is a good thing, imo. Definitely would NOT call it 'too easy'.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I always find quiet amusement to see this thread bumped parallel to the "we need more level one adventures" thread.
|
Hi James,
Thank you very much for your input on this thread, it is greatly apreciated.
I am personally moving away from the APs *not* due to lack of quality as they are wonderful, but due to personal time available. The time required to complete an AP if you play one night every two weeks can be up to two years or more. So I've switched to a homebrew that's not really a homebrew: I basically stitch a bunch of Pathfinder modules and pick and choose some AP chapters to form something that's a bit more character-driven and less linear. Basically I use the entire Golarion as the sandbox, and depending on where PCs go, then I go draw from any or all Pathfinder resource that has info on those regions (dungeons, city maps, encounter tables, god write-ups, etc.)
I have found that it's not more work for me: the time I spend digging for the appropriate dungeons and regional sourcebooks is basically the same I'd spend pre-reading the AP for a proper preparation (thank you, Pathfinder Wiki and Google, as they point me directly to what module of AP chapter is applicable).
I would love a *free floating AP format*: basically a monthly AP subscription like we have now, but from month to month the AP duration could vary (yes you could still have a 6 chapter long AP maybe once a year or so, but the majority of AP could be 1, 2 or even 3 chapters). This would make for a *monthly surprise* for the reader, as most AP could be self-contained in one book, but some could have the "to be continued!" tag at the end, which would raise anticipation. You could keep the AP duration secret to raise anticipation levels or create a buzz. I'm not sure if this would be doable from your perspective, but from my outsider view it looks like it would be easier to manage as various authors wouldn't so much have to coordinate an entire 6-chapter package every single time (i.e. ok, you two come up with a 2 chapter AP; you over there - 1 chapter AP; you three, I need 6 chapters; and you: please do two chapters on your own).
Essentially the monthly subscription could lead to a multi-chapter AP, but not necessarily.
I would see a "hard mode level 20" type of thing as a single chapter AP not a 6 part adventure, especially if you're not gaining XPs or leveling. In a *free floating AP format* type of release you could make another hard mode 20 chapter a year or so down the road, you can even make it a sequel to the first one, but you wouldn't be bound to it. Depending on the success or lack thereof of the first hard mode 20 you could decide to push it further and give priority to more anticipated projects...
Just some random ideas here - I have no knowledge of what's involved in your planning but my consumer vote would now be for short APs predominantly over long ones at this point. We have a lot of previous 6-chapter APs to choose from now, and there's no way I for one will be able to go through the existing ones in my lifetime as is, let alone future ones. Switching to one long AP a year, and doing small/short series the rest of the 6 months, would be awesome IMO.
|
|
Addendum: since we're talking about level 20 adventuring, what happens when a fighter hits level 20, but keeps challenging himself with harder and harder encounters? not everyone wants to become or care about becoming a god (mythic path); some characters probably just want to become better at what they do (i.e. keep leveling). Are there going to be any plans in the future for say, level 21 to 30 progression?
|
Creative Director
|
Addendum: since we're talking about level 20 adventuring, what happens when a fighter hits level 20, but keeps challenging himself with harder and harder encounters? not everyone wants to become or care about becoming a god (mythic path); some characters probably just want to become better at what they do (i.e. keep leveling). Are there going to be any plans in the future for say, level 21 to 30 progression?
Nope. When you hit 20th, direct support of advancing levels beyond that other than mythic is not supported. The Core Rulebook has some suggestions for how to keep going (my preference is to multi-class or prestige class at that point).
|
|
Addendum: since we're talking about level 20 adventuring, what happens when a fighter hits level 20, but keeps challenging himself with harder and harder encounters? not everyone wants to become or care about becoming a god (mythic path); some characters probably just want to become better at what they do (i.e. keep leveling). Are there going to be any plans in the future for say, level 21 to 30 progression?Nope. When you hit 20th, direct support of advancing levels beyond that other than mythic is not supported. The Core Rulebook has some suggestions for how to keep going (my preference is to multi-class or prestige class at that point).
That's actually a great idea. They've effectively "mastered" the class and gained the level 20 capstone gooddy. Now they can learn a few more tricks from other classes. Makes sense! Thank you Sir! :)
(the only thing left to do for the DM is to figure out the XP table, if that's something he's even gonna care about...)
Additional Addendum: soul stats? I'd love an adventure or supplement based on what a soul can actually do between death and Pharasma's judgement (and beyond that, in certain cases, as some souls hang by that big lake in the Boneyard I think, others do other things, etc.) Extra bits discussing what memories remain, abilities or echoes of past abilities, etc. would be neat too.
Edits: perhaps also circumstances of death granting different abilities to the soul or templates (accidental, peaceful, due to sickness, old age, murdured, defeated in battle, eaten by animal, freed from undeath, zapped by magic, starvation and thirst, in a fire, drowned, poisoned, darwin award, etc. etc. etc.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hopefully not belated but add another vote for a hard mode AP.
|
...
I would love a *free floating AP format*: basically a monthly AP subscription like we have now, but from month to month the AP duration could vary (yes you could still have a 6 chapter long AP maybe once a year or so, but the majority of AP could be 1, 2 or even 3 chapters).
The module line might actually be a great space for this, with the extended format, stuff like Dragon's Demand demonstrated what could be a mini-campaign. You could go back to the classic style of the occasional 2 part module spreading it out over deliveries (modules not being a monthly line yet.) But I highly recommend Dragon's Demand, it definitely had a whole campaign feel packed into one book.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's actually what I've been suggesting folks try when they post that "The APs are too easy!" In most cases, it turns out they're playing with 20 or 25 point buy and/or with 6 or more players. That's like asking for ten scoops of sugar in your coffee and then complaining it's too sweet.Re: A "Hard Mode" AP...
Just run a standard AP straight (from the GM's perspective), with PCs using 10-point buy and the Slow advancement track.
That's what it sounds like to me too. That said, it might be worth considering that independently of AP difficulty adjustment, 15 point buy might be too restrictive against some character concepts, so setting something around 20 point buy (who says it has to be a multiple of 5, anyway?) as the new normal would be a good thing, and then any hard mode adjustments are added from that point. Likewise, the great majority of the PbPs I have been following on these boards have 5 PCs in them, with 6 being somewhat common, so it might be worth making 5 the new normal, and adding hard mode adjustments from there.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Having 4 PCs (and thus 4 players) might be the minimum required to play an AP, but I think it is far from the norm, which is more likely around 6 players in a group thus 6 PCs in a party.
And the number of players wanting to play an AP is not something the GM has control over. And not all of us have the time or gusto needed to play the same AP for two separate group of players, especially if those are all buddies who want to keep on playing all together.
Point-buy 20 is often used for the reasons EnArcaneElection mentioned AND because it is the standard for PFS.
Also, people want their characters to do great legendary things and use the awesome powers of their classes. Which do not usually come into play before 4th level. And I am not even talking about those who want to play specific Prestige Classes.
For all these reasons, I too would like a HARD-mode AP (maybe with 5 PCs and 20 point-buy as baselines), going all the way to level 20 with some fights left till the end so that players can enjoy their PCs' capstones.
HARD mode as a standard would also make my job as a GM easier, because I find it far simpler to reduce the power of NPCs and encounters than to increase it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
One thing to consider is a minor, non-player, use of Mythic for mini-boss and boss encounters: Specifically, the Mythic: Agile template, which allows an enemy to have two full actions a round. Using that template, one level, and the Feat that lets him dimension door and act, the Scribbler proved... far more problematic for my Runelords group (which IS using Mythic rules and has a party of five).
Seriously. Many Boss Encounters either have the Boss facing the PCs alone, or have a minimal bodyguard. Perhaps having summoned monsters who are designed to redirect attacks to them instead of the Boss, or something to that effect... so the players can't just pound the Boss or Mini-Boss until it is dead and ignore the peripheral threats.
Letting these Bosses act multiple times a round is one step in that process of increasing their threat potential, especially against an adventuring group of four or more.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Re: A "Hard Mode" AP...
Just run a standard AP straight (from the GM's perspective), with PCs using 10-point buy and the Slow advancement track.
There's a difference between "I can't do anything" and "nothing I do works".
Another thing (that GMs even could do, depending upon proficiency at generating stat blocks quickly) would be to upgrade NPC opponents (not necessarilly minions, but at least from middle management on up) so that they have PC classes(*) and have the same access to ability score point buy, wealth, and (if applicable) Hero Points as PCs do.
(*)To make this easier, have some standard conversion tables drawn up for common combinations of NPC class and occupation, and when an NPC comes up, just plug this in.
To build upon this even further, make the NPCs be optimized and use optimized tactics. This would be especially appropriate for the minions of the more competent dystopian states (such as Cheliax), where said minions could conceivably have been trained in orphanages, boarding schools, and eventually academies/seminaries/etc. to make them have the lopsided ability score distributions seen in some of the more extreme optimization builds -- but then play up the defects that this introduces (in ways that the PCs can exploit, although with difficulty), so that it isn't just making the adventure harder, but has an unsettling psychological effect ("whoa, not only do they goad their Diabolist Wizards into having absolutely no empathy, but they also beat every last bit of thoughtfulness out of their priesthood and gendarmes").
Another adjustment (again that GMs can do) is to have opponents to use Teamwork feats to good effect. Teamwork feats are available to PCs, but from everything I have read on here, PCs rarely acquire teamwork feats. Players are building their own characters, usually in isolation; GMs and AP writers can build characters as coherent sets, and in the case of the more competent dystopian states (again, Cheliax being a premier example), this makes perfect thematic sense.
On "Hard Mode the AP", let's take this bad boy to 11. Write it for gestalt PCs on 25 point-buy plus all of the aforementioned trimmings. Backwards compatible means you can use the stuff too, y'know. ;)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Re: "Hard Mode"
As our beloved Creative Dinosaur has stated many times, the APs are written for a 4-PC party with 15-point buy and average player ability.
If the GM is running an AP...
...then the GM is going to have to increase the difficulty level of the APs to present a reasonable level of challenge.
I think it's also important to remember that the people who tend to post on the Paizo messageboards are the ones who are far more than just causal players. Posters tend to be much more involved in PFRPG than the average player, and tend to have a much higher level of system mastery than average.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The next time my group casts Bear's Endurance or Haste will be the first.
{. . .}
Point-buy 20 is often used for the reasons EnArcaneElection mentioned AND because it is the standard for PFS.
{. . .}
Related question: How hard do players feel it is when somebody runs a PFS scenario with a 4 PC party of specified level and 15 point buy?
I can answer that from the GM perspective: I run modified PFS scenarios in my home game pretty frequently. (What I modify tends to be location and overall plot; I keep the encounters more-or-less the same.)
PFS scenarios have adjustments built in to lower the overall challenge for parties of less than six. I usually have to make those adjustments for my party of 4, unless the scenario happens to play directly to my party's strengths. In my experience, the 15/20 point buy difference is much less of an issue than the number of PCs.
None of my players are interested in PFS, and would not really have any basis for comparison on that front.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Earlier it was mentioned that players who liked Mythic should provide feedback, so here's ours - we loved it! Wrath of the Righteous was super exciting and fun. Our group had a great time and would be more than happy to play a mythic path again anytime, especially if it got us all the way up to level 20. :)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am all in favor of an AP that actually wraps up at 20th instead of 16th or 18th. I'd also be all in favor of an AP that was something of a "Hard Mode." Either or would make me happy! If you combined them both, I would be overjoyed.
I know these things are written for a party of 4, and I'm sure that's a common group size, but it's not for me. Not by any stretch of the imagination. When I run a campaign, I usually end up with 8 or 9 or 12 people who want to play; the max I'll run with is 7 and I haven't run a campaign for a table of fewer than 5, ever.
I also think the 20-point point buy is much better for player experience. Not because it reduces the difficulty (I end up ramping up the difficulty a lot in any pre-written APs I run), but because it enables more concepts. It's much friendlier to MAD classes, so while the SAD full spellcasters still run away with things toward the end, it's not quite as stark a difference as it is at 15.
My players also look wistfully at their capstone abilities and wonder when they will ever get to use them. I admit to having done the same... it would be nice to be able to indulge that every now and then as part of the main story, and not as some tacked-on afterword.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's what it sounds like to me too. That said, it might be worth considering that independently of AP difficulty adjustment, 15 point buy might be too restrictive against some character concepts, so setting something around 20 point buy (who says it has to be a multiple of 5, anyway?) as the new normal would be a good thing, and then any hard mode adjustments are added from that point. Likewise, the great majority of the PbPs I have been following on these boards have 5 PCs in them, with 6 being somewhat common, so it might be worth making 5 the new normal, and adding hard mode adjustments from there.
PbPs come with some special pressures that encourage larger groups. Whereas a FtF group might have a regular schedule, a PbP is "always on." People can post to a thread whenever they want. Because of that, a PbP requires near-constant input, or else the game looks like it's stalling. That's why we see GMs in recruitment threads asking players to commit to posting some number of times per week. It's also one reason why group size inflates; the more people in the group, the likelier it is that any one of them will be able and willing to post at any given time. Larger groups are also necessary to cover the risk of players dropping out. Like it or not, ad hoc groups organized on and playing over the Internet tend to be less cohesive than FtF tables. One member of a large group dropping out is less harm to the game than one member of a small group dropping out, and it's easier to replace them online than it is in real life.
Moment-to-moment play speed (that is, how long it takes to go around the table) tends to be a limiter on group size in FtF games. In a round with, say, 8 players plus the GM, lots of people are going to be waiting for their turn to come up for a long time. In PbP this isn't a concern, because between your posts you're not sitting around bored, you're living your life - I hope. Related to this, it's easier to roleplay in large groups in a PbP, where there's no danger of players talking over each other, shouting each other down, or interrupting.
In a format that demands larger groups, and removes some of the pressures that keep groups small, is it any wonder that groups tend to be larger than the assumed group?
^Fair enough, but I have seen an awful lot of un-cohesive FtF groups in college (granted, this was solidly back in 1st Edition days). Size of these was all over the map -- ranged from 2 (which was the only really cohesive example) to around 14. By comparison, the PbPs I have been following have been fairly (if not ideally) cohesive.
I really like the idea of a "HARD MODE" AP, so count my vote in the YES tally! Extreme difficulty in D&D games makes me think of Tomb of Horrors... a meat grinder dungeon that is very unforgiving of the wrong choices. Running an entire campaign in that style would be exciting, but as someone previous suggested, penalties for death will probably need to be mitigated. Rolling up new characters in the 1e days was fairly quick and easy... not so much with PF.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ugh. Aside from the occasional one-shot game with pregenerated characters (i.e. Classic D&D tournament modules), meat-grinder adventures interest me not in the slightest. A meat-grinder AP even less so.
For most of us, a full AP takes 2-3 years of face-to-face gaming to complete. A saving grace is continuity of characters, allowing for a great deal of character development and interpersonal relationships.
That all goes out the window when everyone's constantly rolling up new characters!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ugh. Aside from the occasional one-shot game with pregenerated characters (i.e. Classic D&D tournament modules), meat-grinder adventures interest me not in the slightest. A meat-grinder AP even less so.
For most of us, a full AP takes 2-3 years of face-to-face gaming to complete. A saving grace is continuity of characters, allowing for a great deal of character development and interpersonal relationships.
That all goes out the window when everyone's constantly rolling up new characters!
Thus "hard mode", not "meat grinder". ;)
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am sure the Paizo team can come up with excellent ways to help with PC's survival, even in Hard Mode, while still allowing for new characters to join the team when a player wants to try a new PC.
An idea I got : the PCs are cursed to never die. They resurrect not long after being killed. But their loot might not be there. Or magic items are automatically used up to fuel this resurrection. The AP, among other things, would be about defeating this curse of immortality.
I am sure the Paizo team can come up with excellent ways to help with PC's survival, even in Hard Mode, while still allowing for new characters to join the team when a player wants to try a new PC.
An idea I got : the PCs are cursed to never die. They resurrect not long after being killed. But their loot might not be there. Or magic items are automatically used up to fuel this resurrection. The AP, among other things, would be about defeating this curse of immortality.
Accursed Champions AP. The PCs are 10th tier mythic heroes cursed by a Great Old One/ Smurfette/ Snoopy. They can't die ... but they can suffer ...
An idea I got : the PCs are cursed to never die. They resurrect not long after being killed. But their loot might not be there.
That could make for a truly terrifying situation.
"The Big Bad isn't going down! Initiate the Humanoid Wave technique!"
Or magic items are automatically used up to fuel this resurrection. The AP, among other things, would be about defeating this curse of immortality.
That could become horrifically problematic, if said gear was *barely* keeping them competitive at the AP level. Losing some or all of said gear would drop party effectiveness and force months if not years of 'side-quest grinding' to regain all the lost gear to get back up to a spot where they can actually do the things they need to do.
An idea I got : the PCs are cursed to never die. They resurrect not long after being killed. But their loot might not be there.
That could make for a truly terrifying situation.
"The Big Bad isn't going down! Initiate the Humanoid Wave technique!"
That could become horrifically problematic, if said gear was *barely* keeping them competitive at the AP level. Losing some or all of said gear would drop party effectiveness and force months if not years of 'side-quest grinding' to regain all the lost gear to get back up to a spot where they can actually do the things they need to do.
Or magic items are automatically used up to fuel this resurrection. The AP, among other things, would be about defeating this curse of immortality.
Automatic Bonus Progression effectively addresses the latter concern. ;)
Accursed Champions AP. The PCs are 10th tier mythic heroes cursed by a Great Old One/ Smurfette/ Snoopy. They can't die ... but they can suffer ...I am sure the Paizo team can come up with excellent ways to help with PC's survival, even in Hard Mode, while still allowing for new characters to join the team when a player wants to try a new PC.
An idea I got : the PCs are cursed to never die. They resurrect not long after being killed. But their loot might not be there. Or magic items are automatically used up to fuel this resurrection. The AP, among other things, would be about defeating this curse of immortality.
Pathfinder meets Paranoia!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pathfinder meets Paranoia!
"Smile and be happy, Citizen, the Decemvirate is your friend!"