Why not more spells that polymorph others?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Ever since 3E, it seems that the ability to magically alter the forms of other creatures (aside from the caster) has been greatly reduced. I have never been entirely sure why this is. Fiction abounds with tales of sorcerous beings who transform others, from Circe to Madam Mim.

Yet, aside from baleful polymorph and using things like charm to make a willing recipient of polymorph other spells, there doesn't seem to be any real precedent to accomplish this in Pathfinder. Is it just too game imbalancing?

On that note, I've never really understood the game's resistance to using shapechanging magic to adopt a specific identity. This is something that goes back all the way to 1E. In 3E/Pathfinder, I suppose the rationale is that it invalidates the Disguise skill, but other than that, is there any real reason why magic shouldn't allow for the transformation into a specific visage?


How many different Baleful Polymorph spells do you need?

Sczarni

(probably a better topic for the General Discussion forum)

My guess? Players don't want to be hit with Baleful Polymorph as it is. Can you imagine if there was a version of it available at every level?

I don't think it's unbalancing, I think that it adds another condition and layer of complexity that players have to worry about. In addition to cure spells, remove poison, remove disease, remove curse, and all the various "conditions", having to account for another remedy (and one that more dangerously shuts you down on a single failed save) would probably just be too much.

So, I don't think it's a problem in the hands of the PCs. I think PCs would have a problem if it were in the hands of the bad guys.


I suppose a Baleful Polymorph with a duration of one round per level would be a reasonably balanced lower level spell. If Dispel Magic (or Break Enchantment or maybe Remove Curse) can fix it then you wouldn't really need any non-standard remedies.

But it's quite fiddly to recalculate your stats so it might be more trouble than it's worth.


Why does it need to be baleful polymorph? Why can't it be single part changes instead of full body?

Say a lvl 3 polymorph spell that changes the target's hands to paws, removing the ability to hold weapons but giving them natural claw attacks? Seems an effective way to disarm a fighter without being completely save or lose.

Or a 4th lvl polymorph spell that temporarily grows a second head on the target that has an opposite alignment and fights for control of the body giving a 50/50 chance for normal action or action the DM takes that the other head does. And being temporary it's around the same power as Bestow Curse' 50% action wasted trick.

There's a lot of potential debuffing polymorph spells that could exist.


Nefreet wrote:
My guess? Players don't want to be hit with Baleful Polymorph as it is. Can you imagine if there was a version of it available at every level?

Good point, and I admit I was thinking of it more along the lines of abilities available to PCs vs opponents than the obverse.

Still, I think there is certainly room for some different and varied transmutation magic on both sides, such as Myrryr suggests. And given the reductions/limitations on "save or die" spells that Pathfinder introduced vis a vis 3E, I think there is some leeway on both spectrums.

Temporary transmutations, partial transmutations. As it is, even ally transmutations (outside of polymorph other)- willing recipient changes- seem to be incredibly limited.


Polymorph spells are among the most game changing and complex things that can happen to a character. There being only a few is understandable, imo.


Myrryr wrote:

Why does it need to be baleful polymorph? Why can't it be single part changes instead of full body?

Say a lvl 3 polymorph spell that changes the target's hands to paws, removing the ability to hold weapons but giving them natural claw attacks? Seems an effective way to disarm a fighter without being completely save or lose.

I can imagine someone possibly toying with a spell like this, but overall I can't see it being developed by anyone in any serious combat sense. 'We got the raging barbarian to drop her greataxe! Now all she has are those huge claws of OH CRAP HELP IT HURTS!'

Aside from that, one might reskin the Beast Shape spells into something like this.

Quote:


Or a 4th lvl polymorph spell that temporarily grows a second head on the target that has an opposite alignment and fights for control of the body giving a 50/50 chance for normal action or action the DM takes that the other head does. And being temporary it's around the same power as Bestow Curse' 50% action wasted trick.

There's a lot of potential debuffing polymorph spells that could exist.

Sounds like fun, yeah. Although to an extent it impersonates things like Dominate Person/Monster or Confusion. Also, I'd have to call this a mind-effecting spell, because you grow a second head on a skeleton, what effect will that have? Or on that neutral druid who's making your life miserable?

I like to think that each spell was developed for SOME reason or other. 'Gee, I want that cute fighter to like me. Charm Person!' 'I hate all these goblins hanging around ... well, doing this can toast stuff in a 20' radius circle, that should help.' 'After I charmed her, that cute fighter told me she only wants kitsune as lovers. Will Alter Self be enough or do I need the full Polymorph option?' Of course, some spells will be mistakes, but still, there had to be some reason to try to do them. (Even the maligned Summon Instrument makes sense. 'Crap, did I leave my lute with that cute fighter after I turned myself into a kitsune?')


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Myrryr wrote:

Why does it need to be baleful polymorph? Why can't it be single part changes instead of full body?

Say a lvl 3 polymorph spell that changes the target's hands to paws, removing the ability to hold weapons but giving them natural claw attacks? Seems an effective way to disarm a fighter without being completely save or lose.

Or a 4th lvl polymorph spell that temporarily grows a second head on the target that has an opposite alignment and fights for control of the body giving a 50/50 chance for normal action or action the DM takes that the other head does. And being temporary it's around the same power as Bestow Curse' 50% action wasted trick.

There's a lot of potential debuffing polymorph spells that could exist.

You can also include offensive spells to polymorph THING ON THE TARGET like the Shaper from Paizo's own Dragon Compendium book. For instance:

Change a weapon from its current form to something in the same weapon group. For instance, turning a Scimitar into a longsword. This is an effective counter to enemies/classes dependent on specific weapons (Dervish Magus and Swashbuckler) or, at lower levels, specific DR types.

Shrink/enlarge a weapon a target is wielding. Therefore, his scary greatsword just turned into a effective longsword... or make it so he cant even wield it (too big)

Slightly modify the targets armor so it is more restrictive and less mobile. Decrease dex bonus and increase Armor penalties. Good low level spell.

Dullen a weapon so that its damage type is changed to B instead of P/S and decrease damage by 1/2 casters levels max -5 or something . Simple and interesting level 1 spell.

Things like that are iconic and rather fun for transmuters...

Oh and also:

BRING US GRAFTS!!!!

I miss grafts from 3.5. They were freaking awesome!!!


Myrryr wrote:

Why does it need to be baleful polymorph? Why can't it be single part changes instead of full body?

Say a lvl 3 polymorph spell that changes the target's hands to paws, removing the ability to hold weapons but giving them natural claw attacks? Seems an effective way to disarm a fighter without being completely save or lose.

Ohai

Myrryr wrote:


There's a lot of potential debuffing polymorph spells that could exist.

There are quite a few in the vein of what you want.

Aboleth's Lung

Calcific Touch[url] (Yeah yeah, not technically "Polymorph", but it is an offensive Transmutation)

Baleful Polymorph, of course.

Flesh to Stone

Polymorph Any Object is basically the ultimate version that makes the OP's question kind of odd. It can transform anyone into anything. PAO is the spell that accomplishes EVERY Polymorph effect you've seen in media. Turn a man into a Beast, or a pumpkin into a Horse, or a rock into a boat, and so on.

And finally (and much less impressive IMO) is the 9th level [url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/transmute-blood-to-acid]Transmute Blood to Acid.

And that's just the Wizard list. I'm sure there are more on the less conveniently organized lists.

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