Lord Snow |
I read some a long time ago. I remember giving up roughly halfway through the third book when I realized the awesome "relativistic dragons used in a hybrid sifi-fantasy setting to fight off a truly bizarre 'alien invasion'" story was gradually being replaced by more and more romance between the characters. I don't know if this is really how it was but I have a strong memory of stopping to read in order to go to bed one night and thinking to myself that nothing that I actually cared about happened in the last couple hundred pages nor was it seeming about to happen. Next morning I just started another book.
Then again I was like 11 at the time, so it may have been the impatience of a child rather than an actual fault of the book itself.
Zeugma |
We've just weeded a bunch of Pern books from my library's collection. No one checks them out anymore. Changing dynamics in the community + low circulation of sci-fi anyway. I'd LOVE to see higher figures for classic/older sci-fi, but only the current bestsellers circulate, or titles that get assigned in a classroom. Surprisingly, Heinlein's Have Spacesuit, Will Travel was on our local school's summer reading list. Very few kids chose to check it out compared to the better-known & more recent titles. I was quite happy when a patron came in yesterday and checked out Scalzi's Lock In.
With all the emphasis on STEM in America, you'd think sci-fi would be doing better, but it seems like only fantasy holds much mainstream appeal (e.g. Game of Thrones), and even that is more among the cultural elite, not the working-class people I see at my library who want books about how to pass the trades exams, beginning children's books, and DVDs.
thejeff |
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I read some a long time ago. I remember giving up roughly halfway through the third book when I realized the awesome "relativistic dragons used in a hybrid sifi-fantasy setting to fight off a truly bizarre 'alien invasion'" story was gradually being replaced by more and more romance between the characters. I don't know if this is really how it was but I have a strong memory of stopping to read in order to go to bed one night and thinking to myself that nothing that I actually cared about happened in the last couple hundred pages nor was it seeming about to happen. Next morning I just started another book.
Then again I was like 11 at the time, so it may have been the impatience of a child rather than an actual fault of the book itself.
"Is this a kissing book?"
I don't remember when I first read them, probably a little later, but I liked them. Particularly the original 3 and the Harper Hall books. After that they were more erratic. With some gems and some dreck.
Looking back, there's some creepy stuff in there: F'nor's rape of Brekke - portrayed as a good thing, is the most glaring example.
Still, the dragons (and fire lizards!) are awesome. The real threat being a mindless disaster rather than some evil plot was different.
Dragonchess Player |
The first two trilogies are still in my collection. Apart from the pseudo-rape/technically rape elements (which was a cultural thing in the 60s/70s, I think) in the Dragonrider trilogy and the "young adult" vibe in the Harper Hall trilogy, they're still good reads.
Most of the prequels/sequels to "fill in" the entire arc from colonization to "defeating" the thread were OK, but not as good (IMO).
Part of the issue with sci-fi's decline in the U.S. (again, IMO) has to do with the de-emphasis on the social exploration aspect: how technology affects cultural and social attitudes/organizations. Or even the classic "Star Trek" re-imagining of current cultures/societies in a "simpler" form to make them easier to "understand."
Fantasy seems to have also de-emphasized this. There is little to no exploration of non-human societies (either they're "ugly bad guys, just because" or they're "attractive allies, just because;" or worse, "bit part" window dressing) and the interaction with human societies (this was actually one of the themes that Tolkien explored in his books that got removed from the movies). Even human societies are given little attention: either it's "magic in a modern(-ish) setting" (i.e., Harry Potter) or a stereotypical Medievalism (as long as there are castles, heroes, and nobles/royalty, the rest of the social details can be undefined).
thejeff |
The first two trilogies are still in my collection. Apart from the pseudo-rape/technically rape elements (which was a cultural thing in the 60s/70s, I think) in the Dragonrider trilogy and the "young adult" vibe in the Harper Hall trilogy, they're still good reads.
Most of the prequels/sequels to "fill in" the entire arc from colonization to "defeating" the thread were OK, but not as good (IMO).
Part of the issue with sci-fi's decline in the U.S. (again, IMO) has to do with the de-emphasis on the social exploration aspect: how technology affects cultural and social attitudes/organizations. Or even the classic "Star Trek" re-imagining of current cultures/societies in a "simpler" form to make them easier to "understand."
Fantasy seems to have also de-emphasized this. There is little to no exploration of non-human societies (either they're "ugly bad guys, just because" or they're "attractive allies, just because;" or worse, "bit part" window dressing) and the interaction with human societies (this was actually one of the themes that Tolkien explored in his books that got removed from the movies). Even human societies are given little attention: either it's "magic in a modern(-ish) setting" (i.e., Harry Potter) or a stereotypical Medievalism (as long as there are castles, heroes, and nobles/royalty, the rest of the social details can be undefined).
Sort of a derail, but I'd say there's more of this than ever, it's just not very popular in the mainstream, so it's not making the jump from niche genre fiction to mass media sensation.
Take, as one example, last year's Hugo award winner - Ancillary Justice. All about a very alien, (if human derived) culture seen through the eyes of an android/ai from that culture.
LazarX |
There's a 3PP book (PDF) sold for 5 bucks or less that helps you set up a Dragonrider class if that's the kind of campaign you want to run. From Super Genius Games. Thanks to folks like Shadow Chemosh, it even has Herolab support.
I'm not a fan of it for general use, but for a Pern style campaign, it's tailor written.
Lord Snow |
Lord Snow wrote:I read some a long time ago. I remember giving up roughly halfway through the third book when I realized the awesome "relativistic dragons used in a hybrid sifi-fantasy setting to fight off a truly bizarre 'alien invasion'" story was gradually being replaced by more and more romance between the characters. I don't know if this is really how it was but I have a strong memory of stopping to read in order to go to bed one night and thinking to myself that nothing that I actually cared about happened in the last couple hundred pages nor was it seeming about to happen. Next morning I just started another book.
Then again I was like 11 at the time, so it may have been the impatience of a child rather than an actual fault of the book itself.
"Is this a kissing book?"
I know this reference :D
sunbeam |
We've just weeded a bunch of Pern books from my library's collection. No one checks them out anymore. Changing dynamics in the community + low circulation of sci-fi anyway. I'd LOVE to see higher figures for classic/older sci-fi, but only the current bestsellers circulate, or titles that get assigned in a classroom. Surprisingly, Heinlein's Have Spacesuit, Will Travel was on our local school's summer reading list. Very few kids chose to check it out compared to the better-known & more recent titles. I was quite happy when a patron came in yesterday and checked out Scalzi's Lock In.
With all the emphasis on STEM in America, you'd think sci-fi would be doing better, but it seems like only fantasy holds much mainstream appeal (e.g. Game of Thrones), and even that is more among the cultural elite, not the working-class people I see at my library who want books about how to pass the trades exams, beginning children's books, and DVDs.
I am really interested in what you have to say. I've been following your posts in the Hugo Thread. Do you have any thoughts on the current situation as far as sales, and demographic trends go? I'd be really interested in reading a thread you made about this topic, if you have more to say than that what you have posted in these threads.
Like most people here I have a lot to say and can be wordy. But to address a point here you made in the other thread about the Sad Puppies point that modern SF not using some of the themes of classic SF. Here are a couple of works by acclaimed current authors in the field:
"Anathem is a speculative fiction novel by Neal Stephenson, published in 2008. Major themes include the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics and the philosophical debate between Platonic realism and nominalism."
I tried to read it. If you aren't really into things like this it is even duller than it sounds.
This is the "Science in the Capital" trilogy.
"The focus of the novel is the effects of global warming in the early decades of the 21st century. Its characters are mostly scientists, either involved in biotech research, assisting government members, or doing paperwork at the National Science Foundation (NSF). There are also several Buddhist monks working for the embassy of the fictional island nation of Khembalung."
Come on. SF already has a small audience. And it's hard to see how these two books don't have an even smaller one.
Not every book has to be a rollicking adventure. But there is no way books like this are ever going to be a cultural presence or have big sales.
Wei Ji the Learner |
We've just weeded a bunch of Pern books from my library's collection. No one checks them out anymore. Changing dynamics in the community + low circulation of sci-fi anyway. I'd LOVE to see higher figures for classic/older sci-fi, but only the current bestsellers circulate, or titles that get assigned in a classroom. Surprisingly, Heinlein's Have Spacesuit, Will Travel was on our local school's summer reading list. Very few kids chose to check it out compared to the better-known & more recent titles. I was quite happy when a patron came in yesterday and checked out Scalzi's Lock In.
With all the emphasis on STEM in America, you'd think sci-fi would be doing better, but it seems like only fantasy holds much mainstream appeal (e.g. Game of Thrones), and even that is more among the cultural elite, not the working-class people I see at my library who want books about how to pass the trades exams, beginning children's books, and DVDs.
I learned more about science, math, and dare I say, LIFE from sci-fi than I did in the classroom. It's a shame that we keep forgetting that the most important part of the roadmap to the future is having ideas of what it is going to be like...
Zeugma |
I'm all for Anathem being more culturally present, but phrasing it like that makes it seem that Twilight or The Hunger Games ought to be less culturally present. That troubles me because those books have gotten tween/teen girls to read who might not otherwise. I'd rather see a girl pick up Twilight than be part of the non-reading statistic. 20% of Americans don't read a single book in a year! Are these books great literature? No. But most of what people read isn't. Do you know how many Robert Ludlum books my library has, and "oh no, we can't discard those because they circulate!" but our last copy of The Pickwick Papers? "Go ahead and toss it, because no one reads the classics!"
Truthfully, they don't. They just don't.
Pern was discounted too, back in the day. There were whole "you've got fantasy in my sci-fi" arguments about it. The kid who read Pern books at my high school got beat on for it (probably also a matter of sexism, since he was a guy and there was a girl on the cover, and "oh look, that guy over there is reading a book. This calls for a beat-down" mentality).
On a lighter note: yes, I'd love to live in a culture that valued Anathem more than Twilight; where teen girls would write fanfic about quantum physics and not get sneered at for it. But we don't live in that culture.
LazarX |
Pern was discounted too, back in the day. There were whole "you've got fantasy in my sci-fi" arguments about it. The kid who read Pern books at my high school got beat on for it (probably also a matter of sexism, since he was a guy and there was a girl on the cover, and "oh look, that guy over there is reading a book. This calls for a beat-down" mentality).
If Pern had been erased from our history, we and SciFi would be better off for it. It was little more than a sexist macho driven soap opera. I could deal with the scientific augmentation of lizards into dragons, it gets a bit ridiculous to give them teleportation and time travel abilities as a collateral result.
Krensky |
Zeugma wrote:If Pern had been erased from our history, we and SciFi would be better off for it. It was little more than a sexist macho driven soap opera. I could deal with the scientific augmentation of lizards into dragons, it gets a bit ridiculous to give them teleportation and time travel abilities as a collateral result.
Pern was discounted too, back in the day. There were whole "you've got fantasy in my sci-fi" arguments about it. The kid who read Pern books at my high school got beat on for it (probably also a matter of sexism, since he was a guy and there was a girl on the cover, and "oh look, that guy over there is reading a book. This calls for a beat-down" mentality).
* Facepalm.
Read the books yourself rather than parroting some idiot who hasn't read them either. What you wrote was completely and utterly wrong.
thejeff |
Zeugma wrote:If Pern had been erased from our history, we and SciFi would be better off for it. It was little more than a sexist macho driven soap opera. I could deal with the scientific augmentation of lizards into dragons, it gets a bit ridiculous to give them teleportation and time travel abilities as a collateral result.
Pern was discounted too, back in the day. There were whole "you've got fantasy in my sci-fi" arguments about it. The kid who read Pern books at my high school got beat on for it (probably also a matter of sexism, since he was a guy and there was a girl on the cover, and "oh look, that guy over there is reading a book. This calls for a beat-down" mentality).
As I said, there's soem stuff in those books I really cringe at today and the quality of everything after the first 2 trilogies is uneven at best. And yes, it's soap operaish and certainly not hard SF. So what?
I'd also have a very hard time calling the Harper's Hall books sexist or "macho driven", though I can see it for some of the others.
All my issues with them aside, I loved those books when I first read them. Not having them would have been a great loss to SF (or fantasy, depending on how you feel like classifying them.)
Tinkergoth |
I still enjoy reading them from time to time. There's a few I never managed to track down to add to my collection, but I've read most of them at one point or another. From a quick look at the series list, I've read everything up to (and including) The Masterharper of Pern. Haven't read the last couple of solo works she did, or the stuff that Todd has written on his own since then.
I pretty much loved all of her work though. The Crystal Singer trilogy, The Dragon Riders of Pern, The Talents, The Tower and the Hive, The Catteni Sequence. I grew up reading them.
LazarX |
LazarX wrote:Zeugma wrote:If Pern had been erased from our history, we and SciFi would be better off for it. It was little more than a sexist macho driven soap opera. I could deal with the scientific augmentation of lizards into dragons, it gets a bit ridiculous to give them teleportation and time travel abilities as a collateral result.
Pern was discounted too, back in the day. There were whole "you've got fantasy in my sci-fi" arguments about it. The kid who read Pern books at my high school got beat on for it (probably also a matter of sexism, since he was a guy and there was a girl on the cover, and "oh look, that guy over there is reading a book. This calls for a beat-down" mentality).* Facepalm.
Read the books yourself rather than parroting some idiot who hasn't read them either. What you wrote was completely and utterly wrong.
I have read the books. Just because they called the power "going between" doesn't change what I said. The books went from one implausibility after another... including starships and shuttle craft which somehow remained fully operational after centuries of abandonment. and magical dragons, it was poorly written fantasy trying to disguise itself with sci-fi trappings.
thejeff |
Krensky wrote:I have read the books. Just because they called the power "going between" doesn't change what I said. The books went from one implausibility after another... including starships and shuttle craft which somehow remained fully operational after centuries of abandonment. and magical dragons, it was poorly written fantasy trying to disguise itself with sci-fi trappings.LazarX wrote:Zeugma wrote:If Pern had been erased from our history, we and SciFi would be better off for it. It was little more than a sexist macho driven soap opera. I could deal with the scientific augmentation of lizards into dragons, it gets a bit ridiculous to give them teleportation and time travel abilities as a collateral result.
Pern was discounted too, back in the day. There were whole "you've got fantasy in my sci-fi" arguments about it. The kid who read Pern books at my high school got beat on for it (probably also a matter of sexism, since he was a guy and there was a girl on the cover, and "oh look, that guy over there is reading a book. This calls for a beat-down" mentality).* Facepalm.
Read the books yourself rather than parroting some idiot who hasn't read them either. What you wrote was completely and utterly wrong.
It was more that the teleportation and time travel abilities didn't come from the scientific augmentation. The fire lizards had them to start with (telepathy too). The augmentation mostly made them big enough to ride.
That's the part you got completely and utterly wrong.And yeah, it's not hard SF. So what? It's science fantasy. Pretty common subgenre back in the day and even now. Doesn't make it bad in and of itself.
Tinkergoth |
And yeah, it's not hard SF. So what? It's science fantasy. Pretty common subgenre back in the day and even now. Doesn't make it bad in and of itself.
That's what I actually love about them. I enjoy hard SF as well, but science fantasy is what I go to when I want something fun to read. That or Urban Fantasy.
Zhangar |
The dragonkin of Triaxus are openly inspired by Dragonriders of Pern.
I enjoyed the books, but I stopped getting them after the dolphins one.
All the Weyrs of Pern is the end of the story, and everything after that's just filler =P
(Though I also remember Renegades of Pern being a very weak book. Dragondawn was just cool, though.)
I honestly enjoyed how "the dragons can do what" was just sort of a running theme for the whole series.
Rynjin |
I have read the books. Just because they called the power "going between" doesn't change what I said. The books went from one implausibility after another... including starships and shuttle craft which somehow remained fully operational after centuries of abandonment. and magical dragons, it was poorly written fantasy trying to disguise itself with sci-fi trappings.
This may be a sore topic for some sci-fi fans, but you do realize sci-fi is considered a sub-genre of fantasy, right?
This is just a series that falls much closer to the fantasy end of the spectrum. Like Star Wars.
thejeff |
LazarX wrote:
I have read the books. Just because they called the power "going between" doesn't change what I said. The books went from one implausibility after another... including starships and shuttle craft which somehow remained fully operational after centuries of abandonment. and magical dragons, it was poorly written fantasy trying to disguise itself with sci-fi trappings.
This may be a sore topic for some sci-fi fans, but you do realize sci-fi is considered a sub-genre of fantasy, right?
This is just a series that falls much closer to the fantasy end of the spectrum. Like Star Wars.
I've had this discussion with LazarX before.
Still, I don't actually think sci-fi is a sub-genre of fantasy. I'm not sure there's an official classification (or who would make it official:). They're closely related genres, each with a large number of sub-genres of their own, some of which are crossovers.
As for Pern itself: "poorly written" is opinion, with which I don't agree, at least in whole. The original books were quite good, imo, later ones more uneven.
As far as I can tell, it was never trying to disguise itself as sci-fi. The first two books and the Harperhall trilogy were clearly fantasy with only hints at the sci-fi trappings. That makes for a really lousy attempt at disguise.
In fact, I'd say the series actually falls into different sub-genres in different books. Dragonflight is not the same genre as Dragonsong, nor are either the same as Dragonsdawn.
Dragonflight is basic epic fantasy. Dragonsong is young adult coming of age fantasy with the conflict being almost entirely personal. Dragonsdawn is stranded on strange planet SF - not hard SF due to the firelizards and their strange powers, but still taking an SF approach.
Rynjin |
I think the "disguising itself as sci-fi" comment may come from reading the books in chronological order, rather than order of release. I used to think Dragonsdawn(?) was the 1st book, since it was a prequel and it explained the premise of the series very well, and whowed the creation of the dragons and all.
Then I realized it wasn't, and the actual 1st book had zero hintings of sci-fi that I recall. IIRC the first time spaceships and whatnot are even mentioned is after that Albino runt dragon showed up and they found the buried ship.
Zeugma |
Zeugma wrote:Nobody lives in that culture.
On a lighter note: yes, I'd love to live in a culture that valued Anathem more than Twilight; where teen girls would write fanfic about quantum physics and not get sneered at for it. But we don't live in that culture.
I was being facetious. Hence the lighter note.
Zeugma |
Although I'm not the OP, I'll go ahead and say if you aren't a Pern fan, you really oughtn't to post in the "Dragon riders of Pern fans?" thread and hate on McCaffrey. I'm sure the OP would appreciate constructive opinions of the series, but "it would be better off if it didn't exist" isn't constructive.