In other news, my Mammoth Rider build is complete. It uses a combination of teamwork feats, mounted combat feats, and rage powers to make multiple devastating pounce attacks with a lance and natural weapons. Not quite optimized, but it gets the job done - and with no levels in any spellcasting class. Also, you get the sheer joy of dishing out over 5,000 damage in a single round...from the back of an enormous mammoth. These are the moments that make life worth living.
The Rider:
Orc barbarian (mounted fury) 10, mammoth rider 10
Stats in rage:
Str 42 (18+4+5+6+9), Dex 12, Con 28 (13+6+9), Int 5 (7-2), Wis 14 (14-2+2), Cha 5 (7-2)
Traits:
Fate’s Favored, Optimistic Gambler
Feats:
Amplified Rage, Boon Companion, Coordinated Charge (granted by helmet), Extra Rage Power (Lesser Abyssal Blood), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (lance), Improved Iron Will (mammoth rider bonus), Iron Will (mammoth rider bonus), Mounted Combat, Outflank (granted by helmet), Overwhelm (granted by helmet), Power Attack, Rhino Charge, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Wild Flanking (granted by ring)
Magic Items:
+4 furious amulet of mighty fists/amulet of natural armor +2, +5 full plate with +1 menacing armor spikes, +5 furious lance, animal totem tattoo (eagle), belt of physical might +6, boots of speed, cloak of resistance +5, dusty rose prism ioun stone, fleshwarped scorpion’s tail, headband of inspired wisdom +2, helmet of the golden general/helm of the mammoth lord/jingasa of the fortunate soldier, ring of protection +2, ring of tactical precision, stone of good luck, wand of atavism, wand of contingent action, wand of strong jaw
Stats in rage and with atavism:
Str 60 (14+8+6+3+10+6+4+9), Dex 22 (14-2-2+6+2+4), Con 42 (13+4+6+6+4+9), Int 7 (2+1+4), Wis 17 (13+4), Cha 11 (7+4)
Feats:
Amplified Rage (granted by saddle), Coordinated Charge (granted by saddle), Extra Item Slot (belt), Extra Item Slot (feet), Improved Bull Rush, Iron Will, Narrow Frame, Outflank (granted by saddle), Overwhelm (granted by saddle), Power Attack, Rhino Charge, Wild Flanking
Magic Items:
+4 furious amulet of mighty fists/amulet of natural armor+2/hand of glory, +5 huge nonhumanoid breastplate, belt of physical might +6, boots of speed, cloak of resistance +5, deep red sphere ioun stone, dusty rose prism ioun stone, fleshwarped scorpion’s tail, headband of inspired wisdom +2, ring of protection +2/ring of rat fangs
The Combat:
A few minutes before combat, the Rider uses his wands of contingent action and strong jaw on himself and the Mammoth, as well as his wand of atavism on the Mammoth.
Immediately before combat, the Rider activates his animal totem tattoo and designates his opponent as his quarry.
In combat, the Mammoth and Rider activate their boots of speed, enter rage, and perform a Ride-by Attack pounce. To get up close to his target, the Rider shortens his grip on his lance, wielding it as an improvised shortspear, all the way up until they move adjacent, at which point he returns his grip to normal and both Mammoth and Rider full-attack.
The Rider’s attack routine is:
Lance +53 (3d8+210), Lance +53/+48/+43/+38 (1d8+70), Bite/Sting/Talon/Talon +47 (1d8+29), Gore +47 (2d6+29), Claw +47 (3d6+29)
The Mammoth’s attack routine is:
Bite/Sting +47 (3d6+48), Claw/Claw/Slam +47 (4d6+48), Claw/Claw/Claw/Gore +47 (6d6+48)
Because their enhancement bonus while raging is +6 (+7 for the lance attacks), all of these attacks bypass epic damage reduction.
Several interesting things happen on this charge. Combined Might adds an extra 36 damage to the first lance attack. Pulverizing Assault forces the tarrasque to make a DC 43 Fort save or be staggered for 1d4 rounds. What’s more, Mammoth Lord forces a second DC 43 Fort save to avoid being stunned for 1 round.
But this is just the beginning. After completing their movement, immediately after both Mammoth and Rider have made charge attacks, they can both make another charge attack as an immediate action with Coordinated Charge, pounce and all. This attack has the same attack routine as the first, and uses up their swift actions for that turn. After completing their second charge, the Mammoth and Rider end their turn.
But the round is not yet over. Immediately after its turn ends, the Mammoth trumpets as a free action, activating the contingent action spells to charge the nearest enemy (they can both ready a charge with Rhino Charge). They make a third charge, with pounce. This charge also activates Coordinated Charge, and they can take another immediate action, because immediate actions taken when it is not your turn use up your swift action for the following turn. So they make a fourth charge, with pounce.
Okay. Now they’re done. Really. I promise.
Although I should also note that the above tactics allowing four charges in a round are entirely PFS legal. As is most of the build, although I believe a couple of the items used are not.
DPR:
Rider’s average damage on a pounce: 781.4 (818 for the first pounce)
Mammoth’s average damage on a pounce: 589.35
Rider’s total DPR: 3162.2
Mammoth's total DPR: 2357.4
Total DPR: 5519.6
The mammoth can't make that many full attacks. Ride-by Attack only allows the rider to attack and continue moving, not the mount. You'd have to subtract all but the last of the mount's full attack routines.
Even then, you can't call it PFS legal, because PFS doesn't allow you to craft specialty items.
The Coordinated Charge trick works, though not exactly as explained (technically 1 of them initiates the 1st charge and grants a charge to the other, then they swap and the other one initiates and grants).
You also can't stack a gore and bite. They use the same "limb", your head, which is prohibited under the natural attack rules.
Other than that, that's pretty similar to the Cavalier/VMC Barbarian build I was going to do.
In regards to PFS legality, I did specifically state that some of the items were not PFS legal. And although they can't be crafted in PFS, I wouldn't exactly call them "specialty items" - they simply combine two already existing abilities, with an added price multiplier as explicitly described in the core rulebook.
I believe both of our methods for using Coordinated Charge work. Both you and your mount could perform a charge action, and immediately after that occurs, Coordinated Charge could activate for both of you and allow both to perform another charge action. Or you could do it your way. Whichever makes the most sense for you.
Gore attacks and bite attacks can absolutely work together - just look at gargoyles or any of the other creatures that use both. The natural weapon rules only prohibit the use of a natural weapon when you use that limb to make an attack with a weapon you are holding, and otherwise do not mention limbs at all. There's an FAQ stating that you cannot have more than one of the same type of natural weapon on the same limb, but still nothing that even comes close to prohibiting the well-established use of bites and gores.
Ride-by Attack rules tangent:
So that brings us to the Ride-by Attack conundrum. I was wondering if someone was going to bring that up, but I didn't want to put too much rules elaboration in my post if it wasn't necessary. There's been a lot of debate on this issue, although the majority of it has occurred prior to the FAQ clarifying that both the mount and rider must charge when performing a charge attack while mounted. This has a significant effect on the issue, and here's why:
Normally, when you decide to make the charge action, you must move towards your opponent, and you cannot keep moving past them, regardless of whether you actually make an attack. Full stop. If you decide at the last moment not to make an attack for whatever reason, you still cannot move in any direction other than toward your opponent.
Ride-by Attack changes this. But there are some who claim that it does not provide your mount with any special capability to keep moving after a charge.
But here's the thing: as I just described, whether or not the mount attacks has no impact on whether the mount can continue moving. Whether or not the mount attacks, you are left with two possible results, depending on whether or not the feat is interpreted as giving your mount the implied ability to move with you:
1. Both you and your mount make a charge action, and Ride-by Attack lets you continue your movement afterward.
2. Both you and your mount make a charge action. You can keep moving, but your mount cannot, so you must move off of your mount in some way or another in order to continue your move.
I don't know about you, but I'm not having much difficulty figuring out which one seems more likely.
If you want to continue this discussion more, I would advise bringing it up in one of the old rules question threads floating around, so as to not derail this thread and perhaps get some more helpful participants.
And if you were wondering, DPR with only one full-attack by the mount is 3751.55.
You'll actually see that I feature prominently in most of the mounted combat threads. Unfortunately, most of the design team isn't particularly interested in unraveling the hot mess they've made of mounted combat. They've generally ignored FAQ requests related to mounted combat, unless it ties into JB's baby, Vital Strike and the attack action.
The last member of the design team to provide feedback on Ride-by Attack was SKR, back when he stated in no uncertain terms that Ride-by Attack only allows the rider to attack during the movement, not the mount. Fortunately, the mounted combat rules already cover the mount moving as the rider directs but using its action, so there's no rules contradiction in SKR's statement.
The natural attack rules state "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack."
Nothing about holding, and since natural attacks are melee weapons, you can't make a bite and gore together, even if some monsters, such as gargoyles, are allowed to break the rule.
It looks like that last developer commentary was 5 years ago, and a year and a half ago there was an FAQ that defines how a mounted charge works. This FAQ requires your mount to charge during a mounted charge. And if your mount is taking the charge action, regardless of whether or not it attacks, it can only move toward the chosen opponent. Ride-by Attack does not explicitly change this for your mount. Therefore, either Ride-by Attack lets your mount keep moving along with you or it doesn't (hint: it does) and whether or not your mount attacks is irrelevant; it is already charging, so the charge rules are the same regardless. The only way for the feat to work at all is if it can keep moving with you, even though it would not normally be able to when it takes the charge action.
Sean K. Reynold's statement on the subject is both extremely outdated and unsupported by anything before or since. And if the feat does leave the mount's movement unaffected as he says, it is entirely unusable. Also, the feedback he gives on this subject is two sentences long.
In terms of bite and gore, it has been used regularly not only by multiple monsters, but also by PCs - Rageborn Skinwalker Barbarian is a favorite, I believe. There have been multiple past discussions determining its legality. And monsters are never just "allowed" to break the rules - either they have a special ability, or they were a mistake, like ogres with greatclubs.
Incidentally, I was going off of this sentence:
Natural Attacks wrote:
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam).
This one makes it more clear that it's talking about manufactured weapons.
But even your quote talks about combining "natural weapons" with "a melee weapon" - it seems clear to me that they're referring to two different things. Also, "head" has yet to be categorized as a limb. This is what Google has to say:
Limb wrote:
an arm or leg of a person or four-legged animal, or a bird's wing.
But enough about rules. What interesting things did you have in your build that I missed, that could improve the DPR overall (regardless of whether it loses a few attacks)?
This guy could get higher damage numbers, I'm sure. Slapped together while tired. Just a Hero Lab export here, so it might look slightly messy. Point of note: you can get by much better on damage if Effortless Lace is legal at your table with 2 falcata. Sawtooth was just for ease of adjusting.
Unnamed Hero
Human medium (relic channeler) 20
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +13
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 29, touch 21, flat-footed 23 (+8 armor, +5 deflection, +5 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 223 (20d8+120)
Fort +26, Ref +21, Will +18
Defensive Abilities fortification 75%
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.
Melee +5 keen menacing adamantine falcata +37/+37/+37/+37/+32/+27 (1d8+34/17-20/×3) or
. . +5 keen menacing mithral sawtooth sabre +37/+37/+37/+37/+32/+27 (1d8+30/17-20)
Medium (Relic Channeler) Spells Known (CL 20th; concentration +26)
. . 4th (3/day)—freedom of movement, mage's private sanctum, spirit-bound blade, spiritual ally[APG], teleport
. . 3rd (4/day)—borrow fortune[APG], dimension door, displacement, greater false life[UM], fly, greater invisibility
. . 2nd (5/day)—alter self, darkvision, haste, heroism, invisibility, water walk
. . 1st (5/day)—enlarge person (DC 15), expeditious retreat, ill omen[APG], long arm[ACG], remove fear, true strike
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, detect psychic significance, grave words, message, prestidigitation, read magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 34, Dex 23, Con 20, Int 7, Wis 7, Cha 19
Base Atk +15; CMB +34; CMD 49
Feats Combat Casting, Critical Focus, Double Slice, Extend Spell, Greater Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Spirit Focus, Staggering Critical, Stunning Critical, Two-weapon Fighting, Two-weapon Rend...
Design Manager
