PFS PSA: You can always choose to play an in-tier pregen.


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Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

The Fox wrote:
Drogon wrote:
rknop wrote:

Given that Drogon's discussion was a long time ago, and given that Mike Brock thanked TetsujinOni for help writing the guide, then Drogon's intention for the rules is almost certainly less official than TetsujinOni's intention posted three days ago.

I would posit that this makes it pretty clear that the rule is that you can use a pregen for most any reason you want.

I'm not going to argue against this, assuming this is what is best for you.

What is best for *my* group: play your PC.

Thank you, Drogon. You have cleared this up for me.

Unfortunately, Drogon hasn't cleared anything up.

He's basically arguing that a ruling made four years ago is basically still in effect, despite the fact that there have been four updates to the Guide to Organized play since then, none of which incorporate the rule he is choosing to enforce. Not only that - the person who worked closely with Mike Brock to produce the latest guide has explicitly stated that that ruling does not reflect the current position, and that it is always legal to play a pregen for any reason.

So we know that there is no RAW to support Drogon's position, and that RAI is also opposed to it.

I completely agree that the game is, generally, made better if you play your own character, and not a pregen. Players should be encouraged to play their own characters. But there's a big difference between a viewpoint that players should usually play their own characters, and a ruling that players must always play an in-tier character if they have one.

Turning away a player from a public game solely because he's playing a pregen is no more acceptable than turning away a player because he's playing a gunslinger (or a witch, or an aasimar, or ...)

5/5 5/55/55/5

*headascratch* I don't see how You can't apply the credit to the PC who could have played is denying anyone the chance to play or stopping them from playing a pregen.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

John Francis wrote:
The Fox wrote:
Drogon wrote:
rknop wrote:

Given that Drogon's discussion was a long time ago, and given that Mike Brock thanked TetsujinOni for help writing the guide, then Drogon's intention for the rules is almost certainly less official than TetsujinOni's intention posted three days ago.

I would posit that this makes it pretty clear that the rule is that you can use a pregen for most any reason you want.

I'm not going to argue against this, assuming this is what is best for you.

What is best for *my* group: play your PC.

Thank you, Drogon. You have cleared this up for me.

Unfortunately, Drogon hasn't cleared anything up.

He's basically arguing that a ruling made four years ago is basically still in effect, despite the fact that there have been four updates to the Guide to Organized play since then, none of which incorporate the rule he is choosing to enforce. Not only that - the person who worked closely with Mike Brock to produce the latest guide has explicitly stated that that ruling does not reflect the current position, and that it is always legal to play a pregen for any reason.

So we know that there is no RAW to support Drogon's position, and that RAI is also opposed to it.

I completely agree that the game is, generally, made better if you play your own character, and not a pregen. Players should be encouraged to play their own characters. But there's a big difference between a viewpoint that players should usually play their own characters, and a ruling that players must always play an in-tier character if they have one.

Turning away a player from a public game solely because he's playing a pregen is no more acceptable than turning away a player because he's playing a gunslinger (or a witch, or an aasimar, or ...)

100% agree (excepting that I'm not at all arguing that it's still in place). So, 99%?

I apologize for the tongue-in-cheek reply to rknop's post. I get that way when people use things I say in ways I don't intend. Which is why I came into this thread in the first place.

In an effort to sum up my stance on this topic:

Use common sense, please. And let others use their common sense. Paizo gets the final say on what you HAVE to do.

Edit: I guess it wasn't 100%; fixed that. Also, The Fox deleted this post, John. He probably had a reason.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Okay, since I'm working on posting this (hopefully) up to date Sticky, can someone answer me this:

I play through Serpents Rise, the Special where you play 7th level Aspis Pregens, and the Chronicle is listed as Subtier 6-8.

Can I apply that Chronicle to a 7th or 8th level PC?

(this may seem like it has an obvious answer, but after this discussion I just want to make sure we're on the same page)

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:

Okay, since I'm working on posting this (hopefully) up to date Sticky, can someone answer me this:

I play through Serpents Rise, the Special where you play 7th level Aspis Pregens, and the Chronicle is listed as Subtier 6-8.

Can I apply that Chronicle to a 7th or 8th level PC?

(this may seem like it has an obvious answer, but after this discussion I just want to make sure we're on the same page)

Yes, because that was a special where you could only play a pregen.

Specific exception thrumps the rule.

(The same reasoning holds for WBG1, WBG2, WBGF and True Dragons)

Exception to the exception:
If you have a legal Goblin(around 60 are out there), Aspis Agent(there's 1 out there) or Kobolt(there isn't one out there AFAIK) you cannot assign the credit to that character unless that character was lower level than the played pregen.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:

Okay, since I'm working on posting this (hopefully) up to date Sticky, can someone answer me this:

I play through Serpents Rise, the Special where you play 7th level Aspis Pregens, and the Chronicle is listed as Subtier 6-8.

Can I apply that Chronicle to a 7th or 8th level PC?

(this may seem like it has an obvious answer, but after this discussion I just want to make sure we're on the same page)

Reading through the thread for Serpent's Rise (and subsequently through the threads for Risen From the Sands and WBGIII) it looks like you can apply the chronicle to any character you have in the 6-8 range. If you do not have a PC in that range, you hold the chronicle until the PC you applied it to hits 7th level (the level of the pre-gen you played), and then apply it.*

*No Paizo employee made this ruling in any of those threads. This is based entirely on consensus, which was NOT gainsaid by Paizo staff.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

2 people marked this as a favorite.

(2nd rough draft)

Q: What is a "Pregen"?

A: "Pregen" refers to Paizo's lineup of Iconic pregenerated characters. If you don’t have time to create a new PC or simply wish to try out a new class, you may choose to use one of several level-appropriate Pregens.

Q: Where may I download them?

A: They are available as a free download here at Paizo.com

Q: Are the Pregens included with HeroLab legal for PFS?

A: No, the only Pregens legal for PFS are those available here at Paizo.com

Q: May I use any of the Iconic NPCs included in the NPC Codex?

A: Yes, so long as you utilize only the level 1, 4, and 7 versions.

Q: What faction do the Pregens belong to?

A: For purposes of faction-specific goals and rewards, Pregens are assumed to belong to the Grand Lodge faction.

Q: I played a 1st level Pregen. What options do I have for applying credit to my PCs?

A: If you play a 1st-level Pregen, you can apply the credit to a newly created 1st-level character of your own.

Q: I played a 4th (or 7th) level Pregen. What options do I have for applying credit to my PCs?

A: If you play a non-1st-level Pregen, you choose one of your PCs to assign the chronicle to at the end of adventure, and then apply the credit to your PC as soon as they reach the level of the Pregen played. You may not assign a Chronicle sheet earned with a Pregen to a PC that was already at the level of the pregenerated character or higher (though some exceptions exist; see below).

Alternatively, you may also opt instead to apply the Chronicle sheets earned with a non-1st-level Pregen to a 1st-level PC with the amount of gold reduced to 500gp (or 1398gp for Modules/APs). Any character specific boons earned must wait to be utilized until the character is of the same level as the subtier on the Chronicle sheet (unless otherwise noted). You also forgo downtime.

Q: You said "some exceptions exist". What are they?

A: Some scenarios and modules may only be played with special pregenerated characters that are provided for that session. The We Be Goblins series is the most well known of these, though there are others. For these special circumstances you may apply credit to any PC that is within the level range of the subtier on the Chronicle Sheet. If you have no character in range you may assign credit to any lower level PC and apply the Chronicle sheet when that PC is within range.

Q: Are Pregens allowed to make Day Job checks?

A: Yes, so long as the Pregen possesses ranks in a Craft, Perform or Profession skill, and is allowed downtime to make the check.

Q: I don't like my Pregen's equipment. May I sell what they have and purchase different gear?

A: Generally, no, you may not sell a Pregen's equipment. The one exception to this is if you acquire any conditions during the session and must clear them before the end of the game.

Not finished yet, but how does that look so far? What else should I add?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

One thing that's a bit concerning. The language in the Guide clearly states that credit earned from a 1st level Pregen may only be applied to a "newly created character".

Does this mean that no character can legally ever play through both Quest series, Silverhex Chronicles and Phantom Phenomena?

Scarab Sages 4/5

Nefreet wrote:

One thing that's a bit concerning. The language in the Guide clearly states that credit earned from a 1st level Pregen may only be applied to a "newly created character".

Does this mean that no character can legally ever play through both Quest series, Silverhex Chronicles and Phantom Phenomena?

I think someone noted up thread that that language reappeared in the season 7 guide after having been previously removed. It's entirely possible its presence in the current guide is a mistake. So yes, clarification on that point would be helpful.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

@Nefreet: I notice that you're not taking a stand (yet) on the "can I play a higher than likely subtier pregen" question. Otherwise your points look good.

---

What disturbs me a bit is the assumption some people seem to be making that someone reaching for the higher-level pregen intends to be a jerk. I can come up with several bona fide reasons to go for the higher level pregen.

* The player wants to apply credit from the scenario to a level 3 character which he's unable or unwilling to play here. Perhaps he's scheduled to play him tomorrow in a 1-3 module and doesn't want to level out of tier today. Holding a pregen sheet would allow just that.

* The player wants to test out a level 4 class feature on the pregen, like Investigator Studied Combat.

* The other players want to play up and the higher choice of pregen would make the math work to do that.

I could probably come up with more reasons, but the point is: this player doesn't have to have bad intentions nor does it have to be bad for the game.

As a general principle I would encourage people to take the pregen likely to be in-tier. It will usually be the ideal solution. If someone's only reason for wanting to play the higher level is MOAR POWER, I might put my foot down. But it's entirely possible that the player has a good reason for it, and then I think it should be allowed if possible.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Ascalaphus wrote:
@Nefreet: I notice that you're not taking a stand (yet) on the "can I play a higher than likely subtier pregen" question.

I did earlier in the thread. I'm one of those GMs that believes the level of the Pregen is determined by the APL of the party it's joining. Four 1st level PCs and a newbie means the newbie's getting a 1st level Pregen.

That being said, in the 130ish comments since, some really good points have been made. I believe I would be somewhat more likely to deviate from my previous position under a few more conditions.

As far as my personal experiences with Pregens go, I think I can count the number of times I've played a Pregen on one hand:

  • 7th level Ezren was my first, when my higher level buddies ventured into their first 7-11 game and I didn't have anything in tier. It was a terrible introduction to the world of Pregens.
  • 4th level Seelah, in a 3-7 game, because my scheduled table didn't go off, and I didn't bring my PCs with me.
  • 1st level Quinn, during The Silverhex Chronicles. Playing him made me want to make an Investigator.
  • 1st level Reiko, during The Silverhex Chronicles (disguised as an old beggar woman). Coincidentally that credit is going to my Ninja-disguised-as-a-Samurai character.
Playing the two 1st level characters was a blast. Playing Seelah was alright because I was applying the credit to my Paladin (which is why I picked her), so I just RPed her as my PC. Playing Ezren was the worst experience of the four.

The Exchange 5/5

I am concerned about the wording here:

Q: 1st level Pregen. What options do I have for applying credit to my PCs?

A: If you play a 1st-level Pregen, you can apply the credit to a newly created 1st-level character of your own.

This seems to indicate that you cannot assign credit to a PC that has 1 or 2 XP already...

Say I run my Dash 25 in First steps, can I then run Ezra in MotFF, and assign the CR to Dash 25?

It is not "...a newly created 1st-level character...".

Grand Lodge 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
nosig wrote:

I am concerned about the wording here:

Q: 1st level Pregen. What options do I have for applying credit to my PCs?

A: If you play a 1st-level Pregen, you can apply the credit to a newly created 1st-level character of your own.

This seems to indicate that you cannot assign credit to a PC that has 1 or 2 XP already...

Say I run my Dash 25 in First steps, can I then run Ezra in MotFF, and assign the CR to Dash 25?

It is not "...a newly created 1st-level character...".

While I believe you should indeed be able to apply the credit to your -25, under the current guide it appears to actually state the credit to a new character part. (There is a thought that this is language from an older guide and had changed in Season 5 or 6, but reverted to this language) I believe Nefreet went with the rule as written in the current guide to be safe, until such time it may be clarified.

Grand Lodge

This has gotten confusing.

My good friend plays nothing but Pregens.

If I can't figure out how to explain to him how to apply credit, then he likely won't play.

That's sad.

Also, he is my ride.

So, if he can't play, I can't play.

That's really sad.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Starfinder Superscriber
Drogon wrote:
rknop wrote:

Given that Drogon's discussion was a long time ago, and given that Mike Brock thanked TetsujinOni for help writing the guide, then Drogon's intention for the rules is almost certainly less official than TetsujinOni's intention posted three days ago.

I would posit that this makes it pretty clear that the rule is that you can use a pregen for most any reason you want.

I'm not going to argue against this, assuming this is what is best for you.

What is best for *my* group: play your PC.

Suppose that a player with an in-tier PC comes in and says that he would rather play a pregen for this scenario. Would you tell him that he's not allowed to? I would argue in that case that you're violating the rules of the campaign, just as you would be if you banned all (say) wizards from your public PFS table.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Certainly you can play a pregen for whatever reason you want as long as they are in tier for the adventure, but if you play one you are not allowed to assign the chronicle to a character who was in tier for the adventure. These are the current rules, and I more or less agree with them. (Except I believe an exception needs to be made for level 1 pregens. Technically as Brock's ruling stands, the level 1 pregens are unusable for credit for anything but something that only allows pregens. E.I. We Be Goblins, Silverhex Chronicles, etc...)

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

rknop wrote:
Drogon wrote:
rknop wrote:

Given that Drogon's discussion was a long time ago, and given that Mike Brock thanked TetsujinOni for help writing the guide, then Drogon's intention for the rules is almost certainly less official than TetsujinOni's intention posted three days ago.

I would posit that this makes it pretty clear that the rule is that you can use a pregen for most any reason you want.

I'm not going to argue against this, assuming this is what is best for you.

What is best for *my* group: play your PC.

Suppose that a player with an in-tier PC comes in and says that he would rather play a pregen for this scenario. Would you tell him that he's not allowed to? I would argue in that case that you're violating the rules of the campaign, just as you would be if you banned all (say) wizards from your public PFS table.

In seven years of running between 12 and 18 tables per month at my location (so that's somewhere between 6000 and 8000 opportunities for the described situation) I have never had someone make that request.

When and if someone does, I will use common sense and the existing rules to make my decision.

Grand Lodge 5/5

rknop wrote:
Drogon wrote:
rknop wrote:

Given that Drogon's discussion was a long time ago, and given that Mike Brock thanked TetsujinOni for help writing the guide, then Drogon's intention for the rules is almost certainly less official than TetsujinOni's intention posted three days ago.

I would posit that this makes it pretty clear that the rule is that you can use a pregen for most any reason you want.

I'm not going to argue against this, assuming this is what is best for you.

What is best for *my* group: play your PC.

Suppose that a player with an in-tier PC comes in and says that he would rather play a pregen for this scenario. Would you tell him that he's not allowed to? I would argue in that case that you're violating the rules of the campaign, just as you would be if you banned all (say) wizards from your public PFS table.

If I'm wrong about this, Drogon please correct me, but what he's saying is do what works for your group. In his group it works best if everyone plays their own PC whenever possible. As the Event Coordinator and Store Owner it is his decision for the health of play there to disallow pregens for players with characters in tier. So no, he would not allow that PC - This is my take on what he's been saying at least.

Quintin Verassi wrote:
Except I believe an exception needs to be made for level 1 pregens. Technically as Brock's ruling stands, the level 1 pregens are unusable for credit for anything but something that only allows pregens. E.I. We Be Goblins, Silverhex Chronicles, etc...

Under the rule in the current guide they can still be used to create new characters, that is applied to new character numbers. (I think this is something we hope to have clarified as it appears that the wording reverted to an older version this year --In parenthesis is again my takeaway)

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

2 people marked this as a favorite.
blackbloodtroll wrote:

This has gotten confusing.

My good friend plays nothing but Pregens.

If I can't figure out how to explain to him how to apply credit, then he likely won't play.

That's sad.

Also, he is my ride.

So, if he can't play, I can't play.

That's really sad.

It seems you friend does not have a PC in the tier of the game he is planning to play. Looks like your friend is allowed to play a pre-gen in the game he wants to play.

Advice specific to your friend:
I would say that if he always applies the credit to a new number he will NEVER have a PC in the correct tier, so will ALWAYS be able to play a pre-gen. He's just going to have a ton of 1xp PCs that are formless blobs of pre-gen credit. Nothing wrong with that.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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Drogon wrote:
@ The Fox: Your group is not mine to administer. You've linked to many posts that support your view. Others have linked to many posts that support their view. I probably shouldn't have stirred the pot, but you're being very aggressive toward people who are doing things differently than you are, and I feel that is unjustified, given the circumstances. Until and unless someone with a Paizo icon sends you a message saying you should do it differently than you are, continue to do things the way you think they should be done. Likewise, until and unless DM Beckett is told by a Paizonian that he should do things differently, you should leave him alone.

Wow, somebody white knighting me. :P

But seriously, I'm not angry, I just didn't see any value in continuing an argument over it. The way I see it, it's either changed or not, and I have enough info to be able to fairly rule both ways as needed. I have no issue letting a player go with a pregen if that's what they want, but, if it does become an issue, I can point people here. As long as it's not entirely 100%, everyone can use the grey area to improve their game a bit, so if someone needs to play a pregen, they can, but if doing so becomes an issue, than DM's have a valid way to say no without just being a "because I said so" GM.

I didn't really feel like anyone was being overly aggressive, just that it was a bit of a circular argument and unclear as to what the final "rule" actually is. Which is fine. But not worth arguing about, and likely to either lead to even more confusion or issues, or to a more specific ruling that will more likely than not actively hurt some groups' play.

No hard feelings on my part.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Recently in a scenario I got a boon where I can play the pre-gen character from the scenario instead of a standard pre-gen. I want to make sure I don't out-level the pre-gen from the boon, but how do I implement that in say, the 1-5 bracket?

Pre-gen is 4, current character level is 2...

In a 1-5 I'm 'in-tier' with my 'organic' character, but out of sub-tier if the group is playing 'up'.

But I'm still in-tier.

Do I need to find a 3-7 to play with the boon Pre-gen before it cooks past expiration?

How exactly does this implement?

Silver Crusade 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Recently in a scenario I got a boon where I can play the pre-gen character from the scenario instead of a standard pre-gen. I want to make sure I don't out-level the pre-gen from the boon, but how do I implement that in say, the 1-5 bracket?

Pre-gen is 4, current character level is 2...

In a 1-5 I'm 'in-tier' with my 'organic' character, but out of sub-tier if the group is playing 'up'.

But I'm still in-tier.

Do I need to find a 3-7 to play with the boon Pre-gen before it cooks past expiration?

How exactly does this implement?

The way I'm reading the boon is that it can be anytime you could run a level four pregen, not just for that specific character number that has the chronicle from that scenario.

5/5 5/55/55/5

blackbloodtroll wrote:

This has gotten confusing.

My good friend plays nothing but Pregens.

If I can't figure out how to explain to him how to apply credit, then he likely won't play.

That's sad.

Also, he is my ride.

So, if he can't play, I can't play.

That's really sad.

... if he plays nothiing but pregens then why does it matter where he applies credit?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

Quintin Verassi wrote:
Certainly you can play a pregen for whatever reason you want as long as they are in tier for the adventure, but if you play one you are not allowed to assign the chronicle to a character who was in tier for the adventure. These are the current rules, and I more or less agree with them. (Except I believe an exception needs to be made for level 1 pregens. Technically as Brock's ruling stands, the level 1 pregens are unusable for credit for anything but something that only allows pregens. E.I. We Be Goblins, Silverhex Chronicles, etc...)

(Emphasis mine).

Those are not the current rules.

The current rules have been quoted upthread multiple times.
The only restriction on assigning credit is that you are not allowed to assign credit to a character of the same or higher level than the pregen.
(And for 1st-level pregens you are supposedly meant to be allowed to assign credit to a 1st-level character, not just to a newly-created character)

Brock's post from four years ago has long since been superceded.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

nosig wrote:

I am concerned about the wording here:

Q: 1st level Pregen. What options do I have for applying credit to my PCs?

A: If you play a 1st-level Pregen, you can apply the credit to a newly created 1st-level character of your own.

This seems to indicate that you cannot assign credit to a PC that has 1 or 2 XP already...

Say I run my Dash 25 in First steps, can I then run Ezra in MotFF, and assign the CR to Dash 25?

It is not "...a newly created 1st-level character...".

I quoted the current Season 7 Guide for that one.

As I mentioned up thread, I thought it was concerning as well, because that means no character could ever receive credit for both The Silverhex Chronicles and Phantom Phenomena, as those can only be played with 1st level Pregens.

Although, I suppose with GM credit it could be done. But still.

Silver Crusade 5/5

Nefreet wrote:
nosig wrote:

I am concerned about the wording here:

Q: 1st level Pregen. What options do I have for applying credit to my PCs?

A: If you play a 1st-level Pregen, you can apply the credit to a newly created 1st-level character of your own.

This seems to indicate that you cannot assign credit to a PC that has 1 or 2 XP already...

Say I run my Dash 25 in First steps, can I then run Ezra in MotFF, and assign the CR to Dash 25?

It is not "...a newly created 1st-level character...".

I quoted the current Season 7 Guide for that one.

As I mentioned up thread, I thought it was concerning as well, because that means no character could ever receive credit for both The Silverhex Chronicles and Phantom Phenomena, as those can only be played with 1st level Pregens.

Although, I suppose with GM credit it could be done. But still.

My gut instinct is that since Silverhex and Phantom must be played with pregens, they ignore the "must be applied to a new character" clause.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

John Francis wrote:
Brock's post from four years ago has long since been superceded.

Quote/Link/Proof please.

Note, he was the official source at the time, and even more recently, so that ruling technically stands, unless the current rules state otherwise, (hint, they don't).

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

Proof?

four revisions of the Guide to Organized play released since then, that do not include the restriction.

A post from the person who worked closely with Mike Brock in preparing the most recent revision of the guide, explicitly stating that the viewpoint expressed in Brock's four-year-old post is neither RAW or RAI.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Ok, the point I'm getting at is that the online rule does not contradict the Guide.

That means individuals essentially have three options.

1.) They read the most current Guide(s) and that's it, and assume _____ is correct.

2.) The read the online ruling, and likely do not notice any change in the Guide(s) and assume that _______ is correct.

3.) They are aware of the online ruling and also the Guide, see that they still work perfectly fine together without conflict, and assume that _______ is correct.

All three of those lead to three different, mutually exclusive understandings of what is the legal and correct interpretations of the rules.

As we have seen by two different people claiming they wrote the rules here, (themselves with conflicting claims as to the intent!!!), that's a problem.

Devil's Advocating here, (and I probably should have used my Devil's Advocate avatar here,I did create it for just this after all, but hindsight. . .), that leads to nothing but table variation, which, in my opinion, for an "organized" play experience ranks a tad higher than the guide actually saying "It's a viable option for the DM to simply say "rocks fall, you all die. No Save" Suck it."

It's extremely obvious from this thread alone, that there are at minimum, two different views on the rules that do not mesh well. It's also crystal clear that the intent is something we can not look at for a clearer answer on what is.

So, I reiterate, please change the guide so that everyone is at least on the same page.

1/5

You may also opt instead to apply the Chronicle sheets
earned with a non-1st-level pregenerated character to a
1st-level character with the amount of gp gained reduced,
and any character specific boons earned must wait to be utilized until the character is of the same level as the
subtier on the Chronicle sheet unless otherwise noted. You
do not lose access to any of the Prestige Points, or items
listed on the Chronicle sheets that were earned during the
adventure, but you do forego downtime.

Downtime is what you use to do your Dayjob. Thus pregens no longer can make dayjobs.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

DM Beckett wrote:
So, I reiterate, please change the guide so that everyone is at least on the same page.

I think that's one thing we can all agree on (and what Nefreet has been requesting) - that the Guide should be updated to make it very clear what is allowed in playing a pregen.

Grand Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

This has gotten confusing.

My good friend plays nothing but Pregens.

If I can't figure out how to explain to him how to apply credit, then he likely won't play.

That's sad.

Also, he is my ride.

So, if he can't play, I can't play.

That's really sad.

... if he plays nothiing but pregens then why does it matter where he applies credit?

He still wants the option, and also wants to be sure is applying everything legally.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

He can play up to three pregens (either 1st-level pregens, or higher-level pregens with the gold reduced to 500gp/1398gp), and apply them to a 1st-level character.

By RAW, he can in addition play any number of games using either 4th- or 7th-level pregens, and hold them until his character reaches 4th or 7th level. That will never happen, as there is no way for a character to progress through levels 2 and 3 on pregen credit alone.

Should he actually play a real character enough to get to a level where he has held pregen credit, though, RAW then says he applies all those held chronicles in the order played. What it does not say, although it probably should, is that the character must be in-tier for the chronicle at the time the chronicle gets applied. So in theory your friend could apply enough held chronicles earned by a 4th-level pregen (and by a 7th-level pregen, once his character hits that level) to get to level 20!

While that sounds ridiculous, it's not really worth worrying too much about it. If the character does get to stupidly high levels there's hardly anything playable at that point - just a few sanctioned modules. And if the character only advances to something still in the playable range he's likely to be so far behind expected wealth-by-level as to make the character unable to contribute meaningfully.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

John Francis wrote:
and what Nefreet has been requesting

copycat

:P

Or potentially a great mind.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Chess Pwn wrote:

You may also opt instead to apply the Chronicle sheets

earned with a non-1st-level pregenerated character to a
1st-level character with the amount of gp gained reduced,
and any character specific boons earned must wait to be utilized until the character is of the same level as the
subtier on the Chronicle sheet unless otherwise noted. You
do not lose access to any of the Prestige Points, or items
listed on the Chronicle sheets that were earned during the
adventure, but you do forego downtime.

Downtime is what you use to do your Dayjob. Thus pregens no longer can make dayjobs.

Only in that circumstance.

A 7th level Pregen can still make a Day Job check at the end of the session so long as the Chronicle is not being applied to a 1st-level character.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

John Francis wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
So, I reiterate, please change the guide so that everyone is at least on the same page.
I think that's one thing we can all agree on (and what Nefreet has been requesting) - that the Guide should be updated to make it very clear what is allowed in playing a pregen.

I'm actually wondering if we can eschew Pregens from the Guide entirely in favor of a Sticky.

It'd shorten the Guide and create one place where questions and answers about Pregens can be compiled.

Grand Lodge

So, just to be sure, my friend can apply credit, until the PC reaches 2nd, then, can't, until it reaches 4th.

This is how it goes?

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

That sounds correct to me.

The Exchange 5/5

nosig wrote:

I am concerned about the wording here:

Q: 1st level Pregen. What options do I have for applying credit to my PCs?

A: If you play a 1st-level Pregen, you can apply the credit to a newly created 1st-level character of your own.

This seems to indicate that you cannot assign credit to a PC that has 1 or 2 XP already...

Say I run my Dash 25 in First steps, can I then run Ezra in MotFF, and assign the CR to Dash 25?

It is not "...a newly created 1st-level character...".

Bringing this back up.

If you use a Pregen to assign credit to a PC number the above seems to say you can NOT assign a second CR earned with a Pregen to the same PC. Only the first CR can be from a Pregen, as any second credit from a Pregen is applied to a new PC.

.???

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Right. I replied to you earlier.

Play a 4th or 7th level Pregen and you can apply that Chronicle to any 1st level PC, but if you play a 1st level Pregen you can only apply that Chronicle to a newly created PC.

I suppose the intent is that you could have just played your 1st level PC?

But it could also be a copy and paste error, since last Season's Guide didn't have that text.

Hence, clarification needed.

The Exchange 5/5

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
That sounds correct to me.

Is this post assuring BBT that his friend CAN assign more than one CR earned with Pregens to the same PC - "...until the PC reachs 2nd..."?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

If you've got a level 1 PC with at least one chronicle attached, you can use the first-level rebuild rules to rebuild your character into something that looks quite like a 1st-level pregen (although with a 20-point build, and the GP earned from any earlier chronicles, you could probably come up with something that's a little bit better than the pregen). Given that, it seems rather pointless to tell somebody they can't just grab a pregen and sit down at the table; they have to spend the next 15 minutes or more producing a near-clone of the pregen for just that one game.

The Exchange 5/5

John Francis wrote:
If you've got a level 1 PC with at least one chronicle attached, you can use the first-level rebuild rules to rebuild your character into something that looks quite like a 1st-level pregen (although with a 20-point build, and the GP earned from any earlier chronicles, you could probably come up with something that's a little bit better than the pregen). Given that, it seems rather pointless to tell somebody they can't just grab a pregen and sit down at the table; they have to spend the next 15 minutes or more producing a near-clone of the pregen for just that one game.

Did they burn any expendables last game or two?

Arrows, acid flasks, etc? Did they track them?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Perhaps BBT's friend likes to mix and match their Pregens?

We did have a local player take "Kyra" through Eyes of the Ten. He'd often sit down at games, put out his Kyra fig, tell everyone he was playing Kyra, and then start off combat with a well-placed metamagicked Fireball.

Grand Lodge

He does like to mix and match Pregens.

I just want to be able to show him how, no matter what game he shows up to, he can run a Pregen, if he wants.

If he needs to put down a -2, or -3, instead of -1, then I want to be able to let him know.

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
blackbloodtroll wrote:

He does like to mix and match Pregens.

I just want to be able to show him how, no matter what game he shows up to, he can run a Pregen, if he wants.

If he needs to put down a -2, or -3, instead of -1, then I want to be able to let him know.

It would be easier to do the math for them than to explain calculus.

Do you know how many of each level they have?

This is going to be like playing flux....

Grand Lodge

No, I am not sure.

I don't think he actually has an actual built PC.

Only additional PFS numbers.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

Nefreet wrote:
John Francis wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
So, I reiterate, please change the guide so that everyone is at least on the same page.
I think that's one thing we can all agree on (and what Nefreet has been requesting) - that the Guide should be updated to make it very clear what is allowed in playing a pregen.

I'm actually wondering if we can eschew Pregens from the Guide entirely in favor of a Sticky.

It'd shorten the Guide and create one place where questions and answers about Pregens can be compiled.

I think the guide should be polished further to reduce the number of different sources where you need to look up and compare rulings. This issue flares up again and again, it should be in the guide.

Likewise, the subtier calculation section needs to be crystal clear. One flowchart illustrating the decision process for subtiers, and where in that flow choosing pregens happens, would help a lot.

1/5

Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
nosig wrote:

I am concerned about the wording here:

Q: 1st level Pregen. What options do I have for applying credit to my PCs?

A: If you play a 1st-level Pregen, you can apply the credit to a newly created 1st-level character of your own.

This seems to indicate that you cannot assign credit to a PC that has 1 or 2 XP already...

Say I run my Dash 25 in First steps, can I then run Ezra in MotFF, and assign the CR to Dash 25?

It is not "...a newly created 1st-level character...".

(Emphasis added.)

The "newly created" restriction is consistent with the later sentence:

PFS RP Guild Guide, p. 21 wrote:
You may not assign a Chronicle sheet earned with a pregenerated character to a character that was already at the level of the pregenerated character or higher.

So, yes, by this rule, you can't apply a level 1 chronicle to an *existing* level 1 character (that is, with 1 XP or more). But as we all agree, it can be applied to a *newly created* character.

If that sentence is included in consideration, I think the RAW is quite clear. There is nothing excepting that restriction to characters above 1st level.

Scarab Sages 4/5

5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 4 people marked this as a favorite.

There are very good reasons to allow an exception at 1st level, though. Like a brand new player showing up to a convention. They likely would not be able to build a character between slots. Or, they might be exclusively playing quests. I think it's much better if they can walk away from a 3 slot day with a 2nd level character instead of three 1XP characters. And I believe the season 6 guide allowed them to do so. I hope this gets clarified when the new campaign coordinator comes on board. If John wants to chime in, it would be highly appreciated, but this is something that could likely wait a month or two.

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