Berserker from the north!


Advice


How would one do a Viking berserker? 1-2 levels of barbarian, the rest in Viking fighter? Get a d12 hit die at first level, take toughness and use FCB for hp and you got a base of 16, take weapon focus for being human if your two handing. If you want to two weapon fight 2 levels of ranger and rest in Viking? I'd like to play a big Ulfen man just cuz I've never actually seen one played but I'm not sure how to do it. I know part of it will be flavor but not sure how to flavor it either.

Grand Lodge

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Straight Invunerable Rager Barbarian works.

Scarab Sages

Any of a dozen classes will work.

Barbarian
Fighter
Ranger
Slayer
Swashbuckler (Spear and Buckler was pretty common and thematic)
Skald
Cleric
Druid
Shaman
Mesmerist
Medium
Magus
Alchemist (flavor your infusions and mutagen as asgardian honey mead)
Investigator
Rogue
Warpriest
Oracle
Cavalier
Samaurai if you can change the weapons
Bloodrager
Brawler
Bard


How to best play this depends on whether you want to portray a typical Viking with a shield and axe/spear/sword/etc or a blood crazed guy who actually runs into battle naked. If you're planning on the naked variety then something with lots of DR might be helpful. I recall that there's a feat which allows you to turn Dodge bonuses into additional DR and suspect that might help.


I'd say that Rogue and Mesmerist won't be as good choices as the rest on the list.

Consider that it doesn't matter what your class features call anything, what matters is the mechanics. Mechanically you could be a barbarian swinging around a club, but you can call it a rolling pin and be an angry devil chef or something.

That said, the best classes with viking baked-in flavor are barbarian, skald, and Viking fighter. I'd personally recommend Invulnerable Rager, just because the chassis is very, very solid and the optimization ceiling is relatively high.

As for flavor, do whatever pleases you. Keep the mechanics of the class features in mind, but you can ignore all the flavor text you want to and substitute it with your own.


Devilkiller wrote:
How to best play this depends on whether you want to portray a typical Viking with a shield and axe/spear/sword/etc or a blood crazed guy who actually runs into battle naked. If you're planning on the naked variety then something with lots of DR might be helpful. I recall that there's a feat which allows you to turn Dodge bonuses into additional DR and suspect that might help.

If you want to go completely naked there's always the Savage Barbarian. +6 to AC in his boxer shorts at level 15 (and, in a bit of flavor dissonance, a grateful recipient of mage armor).

The Wild Rager really captures the wild man feel, although your party might not like you so much.


+6 to AC at level 15 means nothing next to DR 7/-. Weird thing is that Invulnerable Rager is actually probably better at unarmored combat than Savage Barbarian because of that. Savage Barbarian unarmored AC doesn't scale too well.

Grand Lodge

Invulnerable Rager can also walk around in very little clothing in the cold north, and be just fine.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Invulnerable Rager can also walk around in very little clothing in the cold north, and be just fine.

Come on, you have to wear a bearskin shirt to be a true berserker.


It depends if you're a bearserker or a bareserker.

The idea of Barbarians with tons of HP and maybe DR but horrible AC is pretty interesting to me since that's a style of play people seem to heartily approve of (as opposed to my PCs who tend to focus on high AC and get criticized for being "no fun")

Scarab Sages

My Self wrote:

I'd say that Rogue and Mesmerist won't be as good choices as the rest on the list.

It depends on build. An intimidate-focused Thug or Rake would be appropriate and effective, especially if unchained. As for a Mesmerist, imagine a wild-eyed ulfen charging you with shield and axe held high, with a cold stare that freezes your blood. You would need a feat or trait on the axe proficiency (or use a morningstar instead), and would need a darkwood shield. But it would be a cool character.

Sovereign Court

chuffster wrote:
Devilkiller wrote:
How to best play this depends on whether you want to portray a typical Viking with a shield and axe/spear/sword/etc or a blood crazed guy who actually runs into battle naked. If you're planning on the naked variety then something with lots of DR might be helpful. I recall that there's a feat which allows you to turn Dodge bonuses into additional DR and suspect that might help.

If you want to go completely naked there's always the Savage Barbarian. +6 to AC in his boxer shorts at level 15 (and, in a bit of flavor dissonance, a grateful recipient of mage armor).

By 15 you'd get bracers of armor rather than Mage Armor. Probably +8 ones.

Plus it works amazingly with a 1 level dip into Umonk. (Wis to AC & an extra swing? Yes please.) Admittedly - a bit silly in fluff.

Not even counting a Umonk dip - you'd be at +3 AC vs a normal barbarian in a mithril breastplate.

With the dip, at 15 the archetype itself gives only +5, but the Wis bonus should be at least +4, for a total of +9. That gives you +6 AC vs a +5 mithril breastplate. (And by 15 it might be worth getting a monk robe for an extra +1.)

My Self wrote:
+6 to AC at level 15 means nothing next to DR 7/-. Weird thing is that Invulnerable Rager is actually probably better at unarmored combat than Savage Barbarian because of that. Savage Barbarian unarmored AC doesn't scale too well.

I'd rather have +6AC instead of DR 7/- any day of the week, though of course it depends upon your opponent, the vast majority of the time the +6 AC will be more valuable if you build for decent AC at all.


People hates the AC though, they hates it! In a lot of cases the DM will keep cranking up the enemy attack bonuses until he can hit your AC, so lower AC might mean less powerful enemies (who in turn might not hit as hard - allowing the high HP and DR to be more effective)

That's probably more true in homebrews than APs, but I think it would be interesting to see a DR based Barbarian who adventures with a Court Bard and sickens enemies (whether via Thug Rogue levels or just intimidate and a Cruel Weapon). A whole party of debuffers with a DR based tank might be able to reduce the threat of most encounters significantly and have fun with stuff (like when our Sorceress was slapping debuffed mooks to death with her spiked gauntlet)

Sovereign Court

Devilkiller wrote:
People hates the AC though, they hates it! In a lot of cases the DM will keep cranking up the enemy attack bonuses until he can hit your AC, so lower AC might mean less powerful enemies (who in turn might not hit as hard - allowing the high HP and DR to be more effective)

If you want to play the GM psychology game - often true. (And when true - it's time to smack the GM upside the head.)


Unbreakable Fighter 1 / Invulnerable Rager X

Take Combat Expertise at level 1 or 3. Pick up Stalwart at 5 (that's the feat that turns dodge bonuses into DR/- that stacks.) For extra fun, the Dragon Totem line of rage powers grants bonus stackable DR/-. At level 11, go ahead and upgrade to Improved Stalwart. Enjoy having DR/- that equals or exceeds your character level.

For bonus points, pick up a vicious weapon - you weren't using those d12 HP for anything else anyway.


Crane Style is +4 Dodge for -2 to attacks, which seems like a better exchange rate than Combat Expertise. I guess the Brawler rage power could meet the IUS prereq if you're short on feats.


Don't forget the Dodge feat as well...the tradeoff IS better with Crane Style, but it's got too many requirements for my liking. With Combat Expertise you at least open up decent feat chains/additional options.


Devilkiller wrote:

It depends if you're a bearserker or a bareserker.

The idea of Barbarians with tons of HP and maybe DR but horrible AC is pretty interesting to me since that's a style of play people seem to heartily approve of (as opposed to my PCs who tend to focus on high AC and get criticized for being "no fun")

I'm looking forward to the day where my GM rolls for damage and I literally laugh it off. (I went Invulnerable Barbarian, although she's got heat tolerance, so no standing in the frozen north wearing just a furry bikini.) Part of me wonders, though, if that's something to do with, as mentioned earlier, a way to always punch through AC. Most things I read in optimisation guides suggest that after a while, you don't want to rely on armour class as your primary defence.

Scarab Sages

Qaianna wrote:
Most things I read in optimisation guides suggest that after a while, you don't want to rely on armour class as your primary defence.

It depends on how much you invest into it. You can have AC stay relevant your entire career, and it's ALWAYS your first defense, so it's worthwhile to invest in it. You can layer other defenses on top of it such as miss chances, DR, parrying via swashbuckler and so on. But those layered defenses will be much stronger on a relevant AC than on one that can be hit by a first level commoner.


After a point, things just either always hit against your AC or bypass your AC entirely because of pseudocasting or actual casting. 3/4 of the core full BAB classes get some form of capstone DR, and so does the Monk. So yeah, AC helps, but depending on the level, maybe not as much.

At any single digit level, you are 100% justified increasing AC, which Savage Barbarian doesn't do so well. You're better starting off armored.

Sovereign Court

To keep AC relevant you do have to invest significant # of items into it - but it's well worth it so long as your GM doesn't get annoyed and cheat. But it can remain relevant though late game if you build it properly - especially considering iterative attacks.

In general - the classes themselves get offense more efficiently, so your build should generally focus on offense to some degree, but items boost defenses more efficiently, so your gold should mostly go towards defense.


How effective AC is as a defense depends largely on the game you’re playing in. If you’re in PFS or an AP based game where the DM doesn’t make a lot of changes then AC is likely to work well. In homebrew games it is easy for a DM to pump up the monsters or simply bypass your AC if he or she really wants to. Like many things, it kind of comes down to the DM’s style and group politics.

I don't think the DR from an Invulnerable Rager with Improved Stalwart would be high enough that DMs would flip out, but it might be interesting to see how it works in play. I've seen several PCs with DR/- in the 4-5 range, and their DMs have rarely seemed bothered by it.


Of course now I'm also thinking about whether or not to go for the Beast Totem line, and grab that natural armour too. Not that it precludes my lovely steel t-shirt but it might help the idea shine through too. (The downside is a dead barbarian rage power and the feeling I'm just cheesing out the game system.)

Sovereign Court

Devilkiller wrote:
How effective AC is as a defense depends largely on the game you’re playing in. If you’re in PFS or an AP based game where the DM doesn’t make a lot of changes then AC is likely to work well. In homebrew games it is easy for a DM to pump up the monsters or simply bypass your AC if he or she really wants to. Like many things, it kind of comes down to the DM’s style and group politics.

I still say that's not a AC/gameplay problem - that's a GM problem.

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