Way of the Wicked advice / tips


Advice and Rules Questions


Starting a Way of the Wicked campaign next week, and am looking for any advice or tips that anyone can offer. The party consists of:

Tiefling Antipaladin
Tiefling Fiendish Vessel Cleric/Exalt
Tiefling Sandman Bard/Assassin/Master Spy
Human Fighter.

I used the +2 skills suggested rule, 25 point buy, and everybody gets a free rank in all class skills at level 1. Hit points are half HD +1 per level.


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BIG SPOILERS IN THIS POST

The contract with Asmodeus is actually a meta-game solution to the issue of evil parties being prone to infighting. Make sure your party is aware of that. Reinforce that inter-party conflict will not be tolerated.

Come up with a gaming equivalent of a BDSM Safeword. There will be times when players devolve into some pretty icky stuff. Talk beforehand about how the group would like to handle those moments, and provide an easy "out" for a player who gets uncomfortable with something another player brings up in game. This can be as simple as "can we gloss over this bit please?" Its important for players to feel like it is ok to say speak up in those moments.

As for the story itself, brush up on the setting's history, and really talk about it a lot before your game kicks off. Try to give them a real sense of history and immersion. That will make things that happen later matter more.

See if you can manage to keep Sergeant Blackerly or Warden Richter alive somehow (even if it is by a Mitran priest managing to cast Raise Dead on them to get information about how the escape happened). That's a great way to establish a motivated recurring advisory who knows a lot about them.

Brush up on the Stealth and Perception rules for the Branderscar escape. Those distance penalties really matter for when the guards have chances to hear what the PCs are doing.

When they get to Fort Ballentyne, set them loose on the poor place, but don't make them hunt for all the secrets. Make gathering information easy. Forcing them to play detective can bog down gameplay a lot.

When they get to the Horn, do not make them explore the whole damn empty place room by room. Treat it like a montage sequence. "You find yourself in front of a..." is a perfectly fine way to jump from bit to bit.

Then, when the whole place is clear of enemies, just lay the map out on the table and take them on a guided tour of the whole place so they can see how it all fits together. The Horn is huge. Exploring it is tedious. Seeing the map is absolutely vital to figuring out how to turn it into their evil lair.

Good luck!


Doomed Hero has good advice.

For a recurring nemesis, instead of using Blackerly or Richter, add Sir Richard Thomasson Havelyn into the story early on. Have him be the person who arrested a few of the PCs in their backstories, along with Sir Balin. Have him make an appearence at Branderscar and then leave to tend to other duties before the PCs start their escape. Have him make an appearence in Aldencross and be seen talking to his dad, Sir Havelyn, before leaving again on another mission. The author intended Richard to be a campaign-long nemesis, but he doesn't even get mentioned until the PCs are level 9, normally.

During book 2, don't bother using the evil organization rules. They're not very well written or well balanced, and during many weeks, the players won't really know what to do with their organizations, which will bog down play. You might even consider playing month-to-month in the Horn rather than week-to-week, because there is a lot of downtime between certain weeks.


First, my plan is that any player uncomfortable can just text me, which I used as my system for player notes in my last campaign.

I have all 7 books, I think that adding Sir Richard early on in Book 1 is probably best.

I just got confirmation on a fifth player, who wants to fill the holes in the party. I'm thinking either archer ranger or maybe a primary arcane.

At the request of my players, I'm putting Talingarde in Golarion. I'm keeping Mitra, while leaving his precise nature unspecified. The army in Book 6 is largely Chelish.

What in particular is bad about the organization rules from Book 2?


Try the new kineticist if you can't decide between archer and arcane, all day ranged blasting. Satisfied magic and/or physical ranged damage depending on the build.

I've run long campaigns before and I've noticed people got very much more afraid of the layout after their first tpk. They got surprisingly more invested in their second set of characters, genuinely concerned they might die and therefor acted more out of preservation than heroism. (This was Rappan Athuk, so naturally a very lethal campaign)

If there's a way in the first story to emphasize that kid gloves don't exist in this campaign, that a cr+6 encounter will almost certainly kill at least one party member, I'd surprisingly recommend it if you're a DM known for kid gloves.

I'd do so early, since Rappan Athuk doesn't involve as much story as this, and changing members later will be more difficult to work around.


Book 2's organization rules are filled with trap options and counterintuitive choices. The action list is very limited. After the first dozen or so weeks, asking the players to decide what they do with their organizations becomes tedious and uninteresting, and cuts into the session's time.

There are 6 stats, but three of them are simply health bars that have no effect until they reach -5. Ruthlessness, Connections, and Espionage are the stats that allow you to take actions. But Espionage can only do 2 actions, neither of which are very useful. Ruthlessness is the most powerful stat, as it can be used to gain minions and earn boatloads of money. Connections is the "safe" stat by turning your organization into a low key money factory. The optimal strategy is to pump all of your points into either Ruthlessness or Connections, and whenever one of your health stats falls below 0, spend an action to raise it back up. Ruthless organizations spend all their time capturing beasts and assassinating nobles for money, and Connection organizations spend all their time safely making money with legitimate enterprise. There's no point in constructing traps via the organization system, because traps are horrifically expensive, and the Horn comes with plenty of free traps. Players can also easily and cheaply buy caltrops and bear traps.

You could try redesigning the system, such as by condensing Survivability, Secrecy, and Loyalty into a single health stat, or by adding more actions to the list, especially for Espionage. I tried doing that when I GMed book 2. It streamlined and balanced some things, but didn't fix the basic problems. It still got tedious for the players to say every week, "I do legitimate enterprise." There's only so much info and so many rumors to gain.


We tired of the subsystem and freeformed their organisations. Because of all the above reasons.


Well, the party now includes a Tiefling Sorceror (with a blasting focus, Infernal bloodline) and the Human Fighter is going Tiefling TWF Ranger. So not only are the entire party Tieflings, but all of them are of different extractions.


WotW is very blaster friendly. There are tons of enemies that are vulnerable to fire in the AP.

Need any more help or advice?


I don't want to be that guy, but this really needs to be said based on what I see in your party comp.

1. AntiPaladin
Our group saw the same opportunity and jumped on it! A real Anti-paladin? Finally! Halfway through book two the player was frustrated that his Anti-Paladin had no real use outside of smite and overall the class is just a less viable Paladin. Spell list with few useful spells, not many good class skills, the Touch thing is way less useful than Lay on hands+mercies.

and I quote "I felt like an NPC." I'd suggest an evil Warpriest.

2. Fighter
The challenges in these books will blow that character away and not even halfway through book one will he find himself with the class least able to contribute to the plot. If he insits on Playing Fighter then I hope he's a high optimization player with access to the most recent splat books for keeping Fighters almost relevant.

I don't know what would fit with your player, but I suggest Battle Lord or something from Alternate Paths Martial Characters.

I only ever got to the end of book 2, but I can say that book 2 will be very unfriendly to characters who have no ways of interacting with the world that aren't skills or a full attack.


I don't know what half these people are talking about as problems.

my group enjoyed the hell out of evil org rules. they even came up with different funny rp ways of dealing with it, when they ran legit business. They said say they where selling Marconi art. lol

they also did not even think twice about kidnapping npc to feed the monster they filled their lair with. was not until the last few weeks that it even occurred to them they could just feed the creatures live stock.

my anti paladin love playing his and had no issues with the spell list, maybe because he was also playing a Damphier and would use spells to heal him self and other things.

my fighter had no issues contributing also to the plot, +2 skill points per the player book rules help that out a lot. he was also human and use his favored class bonus for skill points. he was getting 6 skill points a level. the only books he was using also was core and advanced players.

the adventure is also very friendly for charm/compelling caster as well as blaster.


I don't want to bog down this necroed discussion by going farther in that direction, but if you want to continue we can continue in another thread suited for such a discussion.

The post I directly linked to is a very explicit explanation of contributing. I do believe your player is able to contribute to Way of the Wicked, but I don't believe his character class is contributing anything that any other class couldn't.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

If you're running this, and your players tend to think outside the box, be prepared to use the material as more of a guideline than on rails.

A lot of the stuff the writer took for granted your players will want to do, and the order they do it in in some places makes no sense, and it doesn't take much to come up with better plans to avoid some challenges here and there.

Thinking fast on your toes will be a must. Always keep in mind what the overall plan Thorn has in mind, and what the end goal is, and play toward that when they go off the rails :)


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So, since this got rez'd, I'll give an update on the campaign.

Party consists of:
Human Antipaladin10 (Lord of Darkness archtype, plans to go vamp)
Tiefling Sorcerer10 (Infernal bloodline)
Human Ranger10 (TWF spec, dual-wielding falcatas)
Tiefling Cleric6/Exalted4
Human Sandman Bard6/Assassin1/Master Spy3

Currently in Book 3, with the invasion of the Vale happening next session.

So far, it's actually been going really well. I did wind up using the org rules, though I folded Secrecy and Loyalty into Survivability. Actions taken are largely Criminal Enterprise and Abduct Peasants, with the occasional Monster Hunt for flavor (and hydras. They have 3). They have gotten use out of the spread/find rumors options, though.

The Fighter went Ranger instead on our suggestion (new player, second campaign, only other experience is playing a Wilder), and is enjoying being a whirlwind of death, though he's gotten KS'd by the sorcerer a few times. I've given him some optimization help (dual-wielded falcatas for the win!)

The Antipaladin is being played by the groups resident serious RPer, and the Lord of Darkness archetype from book 5 has come in handy to him, especially the charmed and commanded cruelties (commanded let him end the Izevel fight in two rounds.) He exchanged Iris's ring for a knighthood for his social identity (no vigilante levels or features, just use of the hat of disguise and roleplay).

In retrospect, I should have let them kill Sir Richard at the Horn, but enough of the moving pieces fit together that I was able to let him escape. At the cost of the lives of his entire party (I fluffed the plot ability to pierce the veil as requiring the uncoerced sacrifice of a being of pure heart. So when they encounter him next, he's gonna be royally pissed off, and guilt-wracked, and for his opening number he left the antipaladin with 4 hit points left in one attack.


Yay for updates!!


Sounds like you guys are having a blast :)

Community & Digital Content Director

Removed an unhelpful post and response to it.


captain yesterday wrote:
Yay for updates!!

Updates automatically change your alignment to Evil UnWaffle.

Good thing this is a WotW thread!


New year, new update!

We've gotten into Book 4, Act 2 (the party has just been given the mission to ally with Chargammon). Among the recent notable events:

The party as a whole has just reached level 14.
Antipaladin has become a full vampire (using the feats option).
They've made a deal with Baroness Vanya (who they've already agreed to make Duchess of Daveryn).
They managed to completely avoid the army at the Vale (due to having their minions man the gate), which means that they have not learned that the Fire-Axe will lead his army to be slaughtered.
The Master Spy is turning into a(n un)holy terror; the only reason I haven't really thought about asking him to tone it down is the entire party is getting a kick out of it.
The ranger managed to one-hit-kill Rodrigo of the Balleryn School(the only reason he lived was the cleric had Breath of Life prepared). x3 crits are nasty.
Their Evil organization has max scores in everything, though it helps that I folded Secrecy and Loyalty into Survivability.

At the moment, my concerns lie largely ahead, especially in Book VI. In this book, my concerns are mostly due to the vampire; specifically the entering of private dwellings problem. Any of Eiremanthus's cohorts can grant an invitation in exchange for the Codex from Polydorus's tower, but the Adarium is likely to be a problem. Will probably have to arrange an encounter with a servant who can grant the needed permissions. In Book 6, it's the action times that concern me most right now. Every thing takes X months, but is that for the whole party? Just one or 2 PCs? And given that the likely future king is a vampire (he traded the ring of Iris of Ghastenhall for a knighthood), the foreign consort event will be all kinds of interesting. But, it could come in handy with Vanya (no need to visit Uncle Gaius if your King can turn you).


Ok! Old thread, but I'm running the game now (just finishing up book 1) so thought I'd throw in my 2 cents:

1 - Adding women. In book 1 I made Captain Kargelda Odenkirk the sea grizzled captain of the Frosthamar. I made Franz(isca) Mott a battle scarred Captain, married to her wife Kaitlyn who she neglects and is therefore having an affair with a (shock!) man, Captain Eddarly. I made Captain Samantha Barhold the sister of Bellam. I made around half the guards at both Brandescar and Balentyne women. Also threw in some other less important female NPCs - I made the wizard owner of the Illuminated Scroll in Aldendcross female (Juliana Scaramore). These tweaks are basically simple name changes and make the game a lot more diverse.

2 - I set my game on Golarion, in the Chelaxian empire in 4606 (2 years after the death of Aroden). Having recently finished the Hells Rebels campaign, I thought it would be fun to jump back 100 years to how Cheliax became evil in the first place. In my Cheliax, King Gaspodar is desperately trying to hold onto power by turning the country towards worship of Iomedae (LN to LG). The party are trying to stop this happening. I put Brandescar at the south western tip of Cheliax, they then sail up the coast, past Korvosa and up towards the Mindspin Mountains, where the meet Sakkarot. They then sail down through the mountains to the base of the Bloodsworn Vale in Nidal (still Chelaxian empire) to the sleepy town of Aldencross, where the nearby Fort Jeggare guards against the monsters of the mountains and Cinderlands to the North. Farholde becomes Taggun Hold, The Horn is in Uskwood, Ghastenhall becomes Egorian, Daveryn Kintargo and Matheryn becomes Westcrown. The Vale is in the Halikarnassos Hills. The beauty is most of these specific places end up decimated and destroyed, so doesn't matter if your PCs already know Cheliax pretty well. I'm considering making Baroness Vanya of Veryn Baroness Abrogail Thrune, but not sure yet if that'll work).

3 - Gave each of the PCs a set of unique (tailored) scaling magic during the Nine Lessons which increased with their level, and then reduced following loot accordingly. (Though I would probably recommend changing the lessons in general - as someone else suggested earlier - to another dungeon - my party hated it, it's tiny corridors and formulaic layout).

4 - Tried to tie each of the PCs early on in their backstory to one of the main antagonists - so they were captured by Sir Richard Jeggare (instead of Havelyn in this world), or Earnan MacCathlain (high priest from the Vale), or tried to weave their backstories to swap out key characters from books 5 and 6 for those mentioned in passing in backstories/family members, to try and tie the PCs motivations closely into the game and give them some fun chances for revenge/growth.

5 - Made the pact with Thrune a Pact Parchment: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/m-p/pact-parchment/ (not that any of the PCs bothered to detect magic - so that'll be a nasty surprise if they decide to break it)

6 - For the duration of The Horn I'm giving them Vile Leadership for free, but taking out cohorts - so they just have to manage the groups rather than having to bother with a second load of named characters. Fingers crossed that works!

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