Spiritualist suggestions?


Advice


I have read the new manual Occult Adventures. I admit that my favourite class is the Mesmerist, because I think the Kineticist might be overpowered. Anyway, looking for advice online, I find mostly guides, builds and advices for this class. A few threads around for the Occultist and the Medium (the two classes I like less) and almost nothing about the Mesmerist, the Psychic and the Spiritualist.

In particular, I have found only two builds for the Spiritualist, one for a first level, and one for a eight level (Ravingdork's).

I would like some advice on this class. Something generic, like good feats for both the spiritualist and the phantom, best spell selection, low level gear (no more than 10000 gp, more or less), an evaluation of the archetypes (I am not intrigued by any of them)...

Also, something for the spiritualist to do during combat when he's not casting spells: the spell list is very good but the number of spell per day is limited, I can't cast spells every round.

I have a dedicated phantom in mind, especially for role play reasons, and for the Dutiful Strike ability to trigger, I should be mostly in melee. With good Wis, Con and Dex, there is no room for good Strength so I expect not to deal much damage with weapons. What are my options?
I have thought about Intimidate to Demoralize targets, to Butterfly Sting since the Spiritualist is competent with kukris, to Aid Another actions, and the like. Anything more?

If I ever get to play this character, it will probably be from level 5.
My GM bans everything that comes from the Advanced Class Guide.
I also hate min/maxing ability scores but I understand that is the better way to optimize a character...

Sorry for my bad English.


Can I bump this?


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A kineticist isn't truly terrible but hearing it described as overpowered is weird. Can I ask why you think so?

A spiritualist is very like a summoner so some of the advice for that class will likely apply.

You don't need an initial (level 1) casting stat on a 6 level caster higher than 13 to cast all levels of spells available, and a spiritualist doesn't get side benefits from their casting stat like a warpriest's fervor or a summoner's uses of their Summon Monster ability, so you can afford more physical ability points than you might think.

If both you and your phantom are going to be in melee combat, then you might consider teamwork feats.

It's hard to be more specific without knowing more about your character idea, please tell us more.


I guess that at high levels the kineticist gets behind... but at, say, third level, being able to deal ranged touch attacks every round is pretty powerful. And I have played only low levels characters for the last two years.

I'm more interested in general advices about the Spiritualist class, actually. This character is something that I may end up never playing so it is not so important.

That said, I have in mind a level 5 Aasimar with the Agathion subtype. I thought to make her a Theurge but I changed my mind after I read so many bad opinion about this class, especially weak at levels 5-10. The Dedication phantom is just the easier to role play, I think. Probably far from the best emotion.

Abilities at level 1 would be Str 10, Con 16, Dex 14, Int 13, Wis 17, Cha 10. I put in a very high Wis because the Spiritualist has some nasty Save or Suck spells like Ghoul Touch, and I wanted the saving throw to be high. But I'm not an expert on optimizing things so that may be a bad idea. I could dump Cha to 8 (even if I don't really like the idea) and Con to 14 to have a Str of 14. I don't really know what is best. With a high Con I could tank a bit. But with a higher Str I could maybe get a medium armor and a darkwood heavy shield (no penalty for that) and tank even better? The medium armor would slow me down (how bad is it?) until I put my hands on a mithril armor. Could take some time. At level 5, I should have 10000 gp and we rule that we can't spend more than half our wealth on a single item...

For feats, I don't really know what to do. I came up with the idea of Weapon Finesse, then Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. Since I will probably flank a lot, maybe I could get something done.
The Outflank Teamwork feat could be nice, but the BAB is too low for that, both the phantom's and mine.
A different possibility could be the Combat Advice feat, from Ranged Tactics Toolbox. With flanking, combat advice, and aid another action I could grant any ally a +6 bonus to the attack roll. Too bad I'm not doing anything else that round. I could try to demoralize (Intimidate) the foe instead. Not too great either.
Another feat I thought viable was Craft Wands. The Spiritualist has a lot of good spells available but sadly too few spells known.

For the phantom, it'll obviously take Weapon Finesse as the first feat, and at sixth level it will most probably get Improved Natural Attack. So there is only one feat left. Better a teamwork one or some combat feat?


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A 3rd level kineticist with an energy blast does less damage than a musket master gunslinger with paper cartridges and Rapid Shot. By 5th there's no comparison.

Given the number of spells/day a spiritualist gets I don't think counting single-use touch attack spells into your plans will help. If you really want to base your offence on spells, Spiritual Weapon + Toppling Spell (w/a trait to cut the metamagic cost) is about the only such spell I'd use at that level. Buffs and utility spells are more efficient in terms of spell castings, and these don't have save DCs.

Given the BAB, the phantoms int, and ACG being off limits there aren't amazing teamwork feats, true. Tandem Trip might still be useful if you're using either Improved Trip or Toppling Spell.

If that doesn't appeal to you then getting Bludgeoner for the phantom, with Enforcer to come at 6th might be good. If allowed, Antagonize would be useful. Combat Reflexes with the intent of getting Bodyguard at 6th or later is certainly appropriate.

For items - if you are going to focus on touch attack spells, spell storing armor for yourself/bracers of armor (+1, spell storing), or an amulet of mighty fists (+0, spell storing) for the phantom seem useful. If you're going to go with Butterfly Sting for the spiritualist then an amulet of mighty fists (+0, rusting or thundering) for the phantom would be handy. Aside from those the usual big 6 should be on your list to buy.


As for an evaluation of the archetypes.

Ectoplasmatist is just a worse version of magus, but with the Spiritualist spell list. It is kind of cool and flavourful, but lacks the arcana and bonus combat feats of the magus it is emulating so is really only for limited reach threatening builds and not really something you are likely to want to work with. Otherwise it is super specialising in the Ectoplasmic version of Bonded Manifestation power, but getting a form of it that misses such things as the shield bonus - so is kind of worse (free mage armour at 4th level is not very useful for a class that gets armour, regular Spiritualist's 3+lvl rounds of shield is better and doesn't require all the sacrifices this archetype demands).

Fractured Mind actually looks pretty decent if you want to be using CHA for casting, or if your campaign is likely to be low on the undead. Apart from changing things to CHA it is otherwise just giving a choice of spell-likes rather than sticking you with a default set.

Geist Channeler is a more magic/less combat oriented Spiritualist, for if you want to be standing back and flinging spells more or focusing more of scouting with your phantom. The 7th level telekinesis spell-like is pretty good, this archetype gives it 3/day a whole two levels before wizards get it at all.

Haunted is similar is that it put the Spiritualist out of front line contention but in this case keeping the phantom in it. It is about the Spiritualist playing support to their phantom, as such is more like a Summoner. Though I don't think the Phantom is close enough to the eidolon for this approach to be worth it. The phantom does more than an eidolon and has some pretty cool tricks, but doesn't match it for raw straight combat power.

Onmyoji are divine variants. They don't actually change that much, they are less good at being combat buddies and miss out of the shared consciousness skills but they can cherry pick some cleric spells.

On the whole, you are probably best sticking with base unless the fluff/character concept of one of the archetypes catches your fancy.


avr wrote:
A 3rd level kineticist with an energy blast does less damage than a musket master gunslinger with paper cartridges and Rapid Shot. By 5th there's no comparison.

I should give some advice to the Grippli Gunslinger (named Kermit) of the quest I'm playing at the moment...

Quote:
Given the number of spells/day a spiritualist gets I don't think counting single-use touch attack spells into your plans will help. (...) Buffs and utility spells are more efficient in terms of spell castings, and these don't have save DCs.

You may be right. I'll follow your advice. Maybe I'll take Chill Touch but even then I should have better utility and buffing options.

Quote:


If you're going to go with Butterfly Sting for the spiritualist then an amulet of mighty fists (+0, rusting or thundering) for the phantom would be handy. Aside from those the usual big 6 should be on your list to buy.

Again, very nice ideas. But, what would the big six be?

I tinkered with some builds. I wish to make an overall tanky build with some utility and some damage. At level 5, an ectoplasmic phantom would have 6 points of natural armor, 3 points of dexterity bonus, and 4 points of magic armor on itself. My character would wear a simple chain shirt.
Probably the best build is based on tripping.

Str 10, Dex 15+1, Con 16, Wis 16, Int 13, Cha 10
Uses a darkwood heavy shield (no penalties) and a kukri (keen when possible)
Feats (one every odd level): Weapon Finesse 1, Combat Expertise 3, Improved Trip 5, Tandem Trip 7, Tripping Strike 9
Phantom feats: Weapon Finesse 1, Tandem Trip 3, Improved Natural Attack 6
Good: Few enemies are immune to trip.
Bad: with levels, the CMD of most foes is going to be too high to be able to trip them? And the phantom is going to have a feat it's not going to use until late...

Another build would use the same abilities and weapon:
Feats: Weapon Finesse 1, Combat Expertise 3, Improved Feint 5, Butterfly Sting 7, Greater Feint 9
I would make a better use of my actions in the round, using both a move action to feint and a standard action to attack. But, a lot of enemies are resistant against feints, and before Greater Feint at level 9, Improved Feint would not do much good.

A third build:
Str 13, Dex 15+1, Con 16, Wis 16, Int 10, Cha 10
Uses a sap and a darkwood heavy shield
Feats: Weapon Finesse (1), Enforcer (3), Combat Advice (5), maybe medium armor proficiency?.
Not much on this. I'd buff my allies and drop the shaken effect on foes every round but a lot of enemies, starting with undeads, are immune to fear effect.

A fourth build:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Wis 16, Int 13, Cha 10
Uses a scythe.
Feats: Combat Expertise (1), Improved Trip(3), Tandem Trip (5) Power Attack (7), Felling Smash (9)
Phantom feats: Weapon Finesse 1, Tandem Trip 3, Improved Natural Attacks 6
Less tanky build, far less AC and less HP for a bit more damage. I'm not sure it would be better than the first one.

Am I doing everything wrong? How can I make the combination of spiritualist and phantom a working one?


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The big six are a headband adding to your favorite mental stat, a belt for a physical stat, a cloak of resistance, armor, weapon, and a ring of protection. Basic combat stat bonuses without extra expensive bells and whistles.

Just a thought - tripping can be done effectively without the improved trip feat if you use a reach weapon, like a longspear. Just don't try to trip anything which has reach too. Not quite as good at it, but with less investment you don't feel as much pain when trip becomes less useful as flyers or big things become more common. For this I might do:
You: Combat reflexes, tandem trip, bodyguard, in harms way, lunge
Phantom: Weapon finesse, tandem trip, INA
You being attacked via In Harms Way should trigger your phantom's dutiful ability.

On your ideas; the first is fine if specialized, on the second you're right that feinting is problematic, the 3rd really wants you to have class features which help with or benefit from intimidate, and the 4th should work - tho' I'd swap its strength and wisdom.


I thought a lot about it and I actually like the idea of a reach build a lot. I have read the Reach Cleric Guide, mainly for the feats.
With few spells of low level and a permanent summon I'm not going for any extra summons. It is a pain but I think my GM would appreciate my choice and it is better for RP reasons too (the phantom is jealous...)

So here is a final idea:
Str 15 (16 at level 4), Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 10 (I'm not going to dump anything, my personal style of play; and with the race Aasimar fixed I can't get Str to 16)
This one would use a longspear and keep a morningstar handy if she finds herself cornered with no chance to slip away.
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Tandem Trip, Power Attack, Cleave, Lunge
I'm not taking Bodyguard and In Harm's Way. I don't think two extra feats are worth it when I can just provoke an attack of opportunity to trigger my phantom ability. And with these stats, I'd better attack than use an aid another action triggered by an attack of opportunity that maybe my foes are too smart to provoke...
Phantom: Weapon Finesse, Tandem Trip, INA

I could also take Medium Armor Proficiency instead of Cleave and get a mithral breastplate. Better or worse?
Or, I could take Dodge and Disorienting Maneuvers instead of Combat Reflexes and Cleave but it doesn't really fit, and Acrobacy isn't even a class skill.

I could also apply the idea of the longspear to the fourth build, taking Power Attack at third level and Improved Trip at seventh. Felling Smash seems really nasty. What about this?


By level 7 you don't care about Cleave so much. But rather than Armor prof (medium) you could get Additional traits (armor expert, one other) and reduce the ACP of a mithril breastplate to zero, whereupon you don't actually need proficiency to wear it without penalty. Actually, you could take the armor expert trait at level 1 and free up the level 7 feat entirely. Furious Focus would be valuable given you're not unusually accurate and you've picked up Power attack.

Maybe something different; a spontaneous caster can really use a metamagic feat, maybe you'd find Reach Spell worthwhile.

The fourth build is viable, like I said. You'd probably want to get Furious focus at level 11, after Felling smash.

Dark Archive

Any ideas for a ranged (like an archer) spiritualist?

Dark Archive

Nothing, guys? =/


take archery feats with your spiritualist, bam, you're an archery focused spiritualist. Like, what are you even asking or wanting?

Dark Archive

Chess Pwn wrote:
take archery feats with your spiritualist, bam, you're an archery focused spiritualist. Like, what are you even asking or wanting?

I'm looking for suggestions for a ranged oriented Spiritualist.

Which Spirit could combine well with an archer focused Spiritualist?

Sincerely, I didn't found an "ideal" role for the Spiritualist yet, since he looks much weaker than his friends with companions (Summoner, Druid, Hunter and so on). But I wanna test an archer-like build in a Reign of Winter campaign.

Any suggestions apart from the 'archery feats' would be appreciated. :)


Well , i dont any know if any archetype would help you really , so i guess Chess has a point , you pretty much would run a human since archery requires tons of feats , then take a anger phantom to tank , even if only a while before it dies , while you shoot people.

I believe the feats you can just get from your usual archer build , might consider picking up some teamwork feats also if you think you can spare it.

I guess you could consider , going samsaran , extra spells are good to have and you might grab some buffs , issue being that extra feat humans get would be quite handy if you are not starting at high levels.

PS: I agree , he is much weaker than his friends.


what kind of suggestions are you looking for? What are you wanting to bring with your character and his ghost? Is your ghost just to protect you while you do archery, or are you wanting it to go into a fight? Is your ghost going to be in physical form or ghost form most of the time?
You really haven't given people much to go on, thus you're not getting advice.

He's the psychic pet class. his pet is weaker than the other pets so you'll need your spirit abilities to be useful.


SirPeter wrote:
Nothing, guys? =/

Honestly, and this is the conclusion I keep coming back to for a lot of these phantoms, if you don't want a front line fighter (Anger or Hatred) you almost seem best off building an intimidate bot out of the phantom and flavor to taste. Zeal and Dedication could just intimidate from range and buff with their aura. Despair or Fear if you really want to push the debuff angle. Geist Channeler isn't great, but for an archer it could also handle that roll - you'd lose an aura but get Telekinesis to get enemies off you with violent thrust?

There's nothing inherent to a Spiritualist that really screams archery, but there's also not a lot that it does seem to scream.

Dark Archive

Chess Pwn wrote:

what kind of suggestions are you looking for? What are you wanting to bring with your character and his ghost? Is your ghost just to protect you while you do archery, or are you wanting it to go into a fight? Is your ghost going to be in physical form or ghost form most of the time?

You really haven't given people much to go on, thus you're not getting advice.

He's the psychic pet class. his pet is weaker than the other pets so you'll need your spirit abilities to be useful.

1) what kind of suggestions are you looking for?

Feats, spells, races, stats. I think this is what anyone who asking for an advice looks for... Not?

2) What are you wanting to bring with your character and his ghost?
The ghost could 'hold' their enemies away, do some debuffs to difficult their lifes, or something like this.

3) Is your ghost just to protect you while you do archery, or are you wanting it to go into a fight?
It would be more a specie of controller (protect?), to maintain their enemies busy and debuffed.

4) Is your ghost going to be in physical form or ghost form most of the time?
It depends of the situation, I think. Do you have advice about it?

5) You really haven't given people much to go on, thus you're not getting advice.
I think we have enough information now... Not? :)

Repeating: in your opinion, which spirit could combine well with an archer focused spiritualist?

Thank you!


SirPeter wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

what kind of suggestions are you looking for? What are you wanting to bring with your character and his ghost? Is your ghost just to protect you while you do archery, or are you wanting it to go into a fight? Is your ghost going to be in physical form or ghost form most of the time?

You really haven't given people much to go on, thus you're not getting advice.

He's the psychic pet class. his pet is weaker than the other pets so you'll need your spirit abilities to be useful.

1) what kind of suggestions are you looking for?

Feats, spells, races, stats. I think this is what anyone who asking for an advice looks for... Not?

2) What are you wanting to bring with your character and his ghost?
The ghost could 'hold' their enemies away, do some debuffs to difficult their lifes, or something like this.

3) Is your ghost just to protect you while you do archery, or are you wanting it to go into a fight?
It would be more a specie of controller (protect?), to maintain their enemies busy and debuffed.

4) Is your ghost going to be in physical form or ghost form most of the time?
It depends of the situation, I think. Do you have advice about it?

5) You really haven't given people much to go on, thus you're not getting advice.
I think we have enough information now... Not? :)

Repeating: in your opinion, which spirit could combine well with an archer focused spiritualist?

Thank you!

For feats, you can pretty much look at any archery guide - your schedule is pretty much going to be fixed - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Clustered Shots, etc. You may want to skip Deadly Aim being 3/4 BAB, but you've also got some decent buffs on your list (and/or from a phantom) so you might be able to swing it. Also consider you'll need proficiency with a longbow - it's not inherent to the class. Elf or Half-Elf could grab it, but that also denies you the extra feat from Human to get Precise Shot online at level 1.

I'm going to interpret keeping the enemy busy as more of an active body guard and less of a damage dealer.

Jealousy might be a reasonable phantom for you if you don't expect to be using it for skills (bluff / appraise are pretty weak) and it's feat is weird, but it does debuff on a successful hit and has an aura that would effectively punish enemies for going after you.

Dedication is the other bodyguard phantom. Whereas Jealousy will probably be better in the enemies face, Dedication will work best at your side since it's first ability requires you to get hit and it's aura buffs your saves and attack. The Dedication phantom has much better shared consciousness bonuses too if you want to put him away.

Edit:

Here are two guides about the spiritualist. The second one in particular spells out archer spiritualist recommendations.

Phantom of the OP-era: A Guide to the Pathfinder Spiritualist
Eternal Servitude: Guide to the Spiritualist


SirPeter wrote:

1) what kind of suggestions are you looking for?

Feats, spells, races, stats.

you're archery, feats are set. stats for archery are High dex, some str, some con, some casting stat, maybe some int for skills. Any race can do this. Elfs, half-elfs, and humans can get a bow at lv1 easier than other races. spells are determined on what you're wanting to do with them, as an archer with not a focus on casting stat you're probably going to want buffs.

SirPeter wrote:
I think this is what anyone who asking for an advice looks for... Not?

Often we have more to go off of than "a spiritualist archer." Also this question is a gauge to see where are you at. Do you know the archery feats? or do you not even know that. Do you know that archery uses dex to hit or do you not know that.

SirPeter wrote:

2) What are you wanting to bring with your character and his ghost?

The ghost could 'hold' their enemies away, do some debuffs to difficult their lifes, or something like this.

so you just are a primary archer with your ghost just getting in the way with some debuffs. This very much helps figure out which spirit to go for as you want ones with a debuff or harder to kill.

SirPeter wrote:

3) Is your ghost just to protect you while you do archery, or are you wanting it to go into a fight?

It would be more a specie of controller (protect?), to maintain their enemies busy and debuffed.

Your ghost is a martial character, control is quite limited to what it threatens. Most likely you'll be aiming to keep 1 enemy busy. But you still didn't answer if you're planning on it hanging back with you protecting you, or if it's going to run out into the fight to do it's stuff.

SirPeter wrote:

4) Is your ghost going to be in physical form or ghost form most of the time?

It depends of the situation, I think. Do you have advice about it?

It takes a full round action to switch between the two, and as an archer that's a full round attack you're missing out on to switch. Thus it'd be better if your ghost was just in the form you wanted all the time. Both are different depending on what you want your ghost to do, and since you want it to get in the enemies way, sounds like physical form.

SirPeter wrote:

5) You really haven't given people much to go on, thus you're not getting advice.

I think we have enough information now... Not? :)Repeating: in your opinion, which spirit could combine well with an archer focused spiritualist?

Thank you!

they all could go well depending on what you wanted your ghost to do while you focus on archery.

Grand Lodge

i've been considering building a Dwarf Spiritualist, whose backstory involves his wife's spirit becoming his Phantom. The character fluke being- he goes into a rage if/when his wife's phantom dissipates.
would dipping a few levels into Bloodrager/barbarian be a smart idea, or detrimental to the Spiritualist?

The other idea is that he disavows that the Phantom of his wife exists- and she's often in incorporeal form because of it. dunno what class would benefit that character fluke.

note- this isn't the nagging wife, they were in love and he was devastated when she died.

Sczarni

Selvaxri wrote:
would dipping a few levels into Bloodrager/barbarian be a smart idea, or detrimental to the Spiritualist?

Nope. Your Phantom would seriously lag behind.

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