Schindler's List


Movies

Sovereign Court

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I know it's an old movie. But I've seen it today for the first time. And I was just blown away. It's a masterpiece.


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I hope you were able to keep your hands off your date during the movie.

Sovereign Court

Freehold DM wrote:
I hope you were able to keep your hands off your date during the movie.

I was watching it alone.

Also I don't quite understand what you mean.


I've never been able to finish it. Not because it's boring, because it's not. It's too powerful. The depictions of the prisoners' misery are too much for me.

Sovereign Court

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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
I've never been able to finish it. Not because it's boring, because it's not. It's too powerful. The depictions of the prisoners' misery are too much for me.

Spoiler:
When Oscar breaks down in front of the people he rescued....I started bawling like a child

The book that Spielberg bassed the movie on was written by an Australian, Thomas Keneally. I suggest you read the Chant of Jimmie Blacksmith. Keneally is considered one of our greatest novelists.

"Schindler's Ark (released in America as Schindler's List) is a Booker Prize-winning novel published in 1982 by Australian novelist Thomas Keneally, which was inspired by the efforts of Poldek Pfefferberg, a Holocaust survivor. In 1980 Pfefferberg met Keneally in his shop, and learning that he was a novelist, showed him his extensive files on Oskar Schindler. Keneally was interested, and Pfefferberg became an advisor for the book, accompanying Keneally to Poland where they visited Kraków and the sites associated with the Schindler story. The book was later adapted into the highly successful movie Schindler's List directed by Steven Spielberg.

Also HD Jerry Sinefield is a genius.


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I think Schindler's List and Saving Private Ryan were two of the best WWII movies about the European theater; definitely two of the best post-1960s (i.e., The Dirty Dozen). The mini-series Band of Brothers is also good.

Schindler's List is also an example of a great movie that couldn't be made in Hollywood (and it wasn't, being shot entirely on location in Poland and Germany with mostly non-Hollywood actors, other than a few roles).

Sovereign Court

Holywood is too restricting on making films.


Dragonchess Player wrote:
Schindler's List is also an example of a great movie that couldn't be made in Hollywood (and it wasn't, being shot entirely on location in Poland and Germany with mostly non-Hollywood actors, other than a few roles).

I'm curious as to what you mean by this because it sounds like you're saying that because a film isnt shot in Hollywood proper or uses American actors that it's not a Hollywood film.

Steven Spielberg is as Hollywood as Hollywood gets. The movie was financed and produced IN the Hollywood system by both Universal and Spielberg's own production company, Amblin.

About the film itself, when I first saw it decades ago I was impressed and moved by it. But upon revisiting it several times afterwards I can say that I'm less impressed with it for the same reason that I'm not that impressed with stories told about the tragedy of "The OTHER". The people that the story is about are seldom given agency in their own stories and are treated as objects to be pitied or objects to be horrified at when horrible things happen to them.

It's a solid technical achievement, I still do like the movie a bit and the fact that Ralph Fiennes didn't win the Best Supporting Oscar for his performance was galling but it was typical emotionally manipulative Spielberg. The least he could have done if he was going to make it a pity party he could have given the "objects" of the pity some agency and actually TELL their stories instead of the focus on Schindler and Commandant Goeth.

Liberty's Edge

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Except that part of the point was that they didn't have any agency. The Reich took their agency from them.

Grand Lodge

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ShinHakkaider wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:
Schindler's List is also an example of a great movie that couldn't be made in Hollywood (and it wasn't, being shot entirely on location in Poland and Germany with mostly non-Hollywood actors, other than a few roles).

I'm curious as to what you mean by this because it sounds like you're saying that because a film isnt shot in Hollywood proper or uses American actors that it's not a Hollywood film.

Steven Spielberg is as Hollywood as Hollywood gets. The movie was financed and produced IN the Hollywood system by both Universal and Spielberg's own production company, Amblin.

About the film itself, when I first saw it decades ago I was impressed and moved by it. But upon revisiting it several times afterwards I can say that I'm less impressed with it for the same reason that I'm not that impressed with stories told about the tragedy of "The OTHER". The people that the story is about are seldom given agency in their own stories and are treated as objects to be pitied or objects to be horrified at when horrible things happen to them.

It's a solid technical achievement, I still do like the movie a bit and the fact that Ralph Fiennes didn't win the Best Supporting Oscar for his performance was galling but it was typical emotionally manipulative Spielberg. The least he could have done if he was going to make it a pity party he could have given the "objects" of the pity some agency and actually TELL their stories instead of the focus on Schindler and Commandant Goeth.

Quite frankly, I think the movie works because of it's very tight focus. as well as it's restraint. Color for instance only appears in a couple of small places in the film, but where it does the use is extermely powerful and emotion-wrenching. One of the main "characters" of the movie IS the dehumanisation of the targets of Nazi oppression which included Gypsies, Homosexuals, and anyone else labled with the undesirable classification. Schindler saves who he does by using his own variation of Nazi methods, dealing with humans as commodities. (it's also why Liam Nielson is such a perfect choice for the role as well.) This isn't a movie about testimonial or brave heroics, it's a much more quiet film, puncutated with instants of dramatic terror.

Grand Lodge

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Freehold DM wrote:
I hope you were able to keep your hands off your date during the movie.

It was one of my first date films with my spouse. But it wasn't the kind of film that you made out to... unless you're really perverse.

Sovereign Court

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The making out during the movie is a Jerry Seinfeld joke folks.

Liberty's Edge

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Which explains the lack of funny.

Dark Archive

The 8th Dwarf wrote:

The book that Spielberg bassed the movie on was written by an Australian, Thomas Keneally. I suggest you read the Chant of Jimmie Blacksmith. Keneally is considered one of our greatest novelists.

"Schindler's Ark (released in America as Schindler's List) is a Booker Prize-winning novel published in 1982 by Australian novelist Thomas Keneally, which was inspired by the efforts of Poldek Pfefferberg, a Holocaust survivor. In 1980 Pfefferberg met Keneally in his shop, and learning that he was a novelist, showed him his extensive files on Oskar Schindler. Keneally was interested, and Pfefferberg became an advisor for the book, accompanying Keneally to Poland where they visited Kraków and the sites associated with the Schindler story. The book was later adapted into the highly successful movie Schindler's List directed by Steven Spielberg.

There are some interesting contrasts between the book and the film. Keneally's Schindler is distinctly on the side of the angels from page 1. Spielberg gives him a redemptive character arc instead.

Grand Lodge

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theshoveller wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:

The book that Spielberg bassed the movie on was written by an Australian, Thomas Keneally. I suggest you read the Chant of Jimmie Blacksmith. Keneally is considered one of our greatest novelists.

"Schindler's Ark (released in America as Schindler's List) is a Booker Prize-winning novel published in 1982 by Australian novelist Thomas Keneally, which was inspired by the efforts of Poldek Pfefferberg, a Holocaust survivor. In 1980 Pfefferberg met Keneally in his shop, and learning that he was a novelist, showed him his extensive files on Oskar Schindler. Keneally was interested, and Pfefferberg became an advisor for the book, accompanying Keneally to Poland where they visited Kraków and the sites associated with the Schindler story. The book was later adapted into the highly successful movie Schindler's List directed by Steven Spielberg.

There are some interesting contrasts between the book and the film. Keneally's Schindler is distinctly on the side of the angels from page 1. Spielberg gives him a redemptive character arc instead.

Spielberg's treatment of the character, (and his choice of lead actor) adds to the overall stark nature of the film, as does making an almost entirely black and white production.

Dark Archive

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Krensky wrote:
Except that part of the point was that they didn't have any agency. The Reich took their agency from them.

There's a running theme in all of Spielberg's WW2 films that focuses on Jews as victims, and on them being saved (or not) by heroic Gentiles. Schindler's List has it, as does The Last Days. There's that uncomfortable moment towards the end of Saving Private Ryan. I doubt the 'Holocaust episode' of Band of Brothers is a coincidence (it's a very minor part of the book, expanded into a whole episode in the tv series).

Now, compare that with films like Defiance, Escape from Sobibor, or Uprising.

Liberty's Edge

theshoveller wrote:
Krensky wrote:
Except that part of the point was that they didn't have any agency. The Reich took their agency from them.

There's a running theme in all of Spielberg's WW2 films that focuses on Jews as victims, and on them being saved (or not) by heroic Gentiles. Schindler's List has it, as does The Last Days. There's that uncomfortable moment towards the end of Saving Private Ryan. I doubt the 'Holocaust episode' of Band of Brothers is a coincidence (it's a very minor part of the book, expanded into a whole episode in the tv series).

Now, compare that with films like Defiance, Escape from Sobibor, or Uprising.

And your point?

Dark Archive

Krensky wrote:


And your point?

That 'part of the point was that they didn't have any agency. The Reich took their agency from them' is questionable. I wouldn't disagree that Spielberg appears to be making that argument, and makes it repeatedly. It is a matter of historical record that Jewish (and other Holocaust target groups) resisted or evaded the Nazis, but over the course of several films Spielberg seems to have no interest in telling that story.

I generally agree with ShinHakkaider on this.


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*looks on the thread title*

I should go visit the museum that is currently in the Schindler's factory administrative building now.

...

On Mondays entrance is free?

*makes note*

Thank you for reminding me that I should check that.

Liberty's Edge

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And history shows that over 6 million didn't. Including most of Spielberg's father's family.

But, by all means, let's tell the Jewish man what stories of the Holocaust it's ok to tell.

Grand Lodge

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theshoveller wrote:
Krensky wrote:


And your point?

That 'part of the point was that they didn't have any agency. The Reich took their agency from them' is questionable. I wouldn't disagree that Spielberg appears to be making that argument, and makes it repeatedly. It is a matter of historical record that Jewish (and other Holocaust target groups) resisted or evaded the Nazis, but over the course of several films Spielberg seems to have no interest in telling that story.

I generally agree with ShinHakkaider on this.

The main fact of the matter is that the majority of of the Jewish victims HAD little to no agency, as did the Armenians who were butchered by the Turks a few decades prior. As unheroic as that may sound, it's the plain fact of the matter. Sometimes History just hits you like a natural disaster, and in most cases, agency is not a factor.

Yes, some Jews and some others targeted by the Holocaust did evade or resist the oppressors, but for the vast majority, the fact that Poland had virtually no Jewish population in the post-war era, speaks for itself. That's why the event is still referred to as a Holocaust.


Krensky wrote:

And history shows that over 6 million didn't. Including most of Spielberg's father's family.

But, by all means, let's tell the Jewish man what stories of the Holocaust it's ok to tell.

No one telling him what stories he should tell.

But I do remember reading a similar critique of Schindlers List from a Jewish site. I'll try to find and post the article when I get home. So as much as you may protest Spielberg despite his fame and notoriety isn't the arbiter of all things Jewish.

As I said before I don't think anyone is saying that it's a bad film. Not even close to bad. I've just become LESS enchanted with it because of what I stated upthread.

Grand Lodge

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Many Jews did take the initiative in fleeing Poland, Germany and other European countries where Antisemitism was becoming a rising tide. Unfortunately many of the countries they fled to, including the United States which had a healthy amount of Antisemitism of its own, deported the majority of them right back.


The critique that I mentioned earlier : HERE

Sovereign Court

I just read that they had to severely tone down the insane, murderous psychopath that was Ralph Fienes' character. Because Spielberg thought that people would find him unrealistic. The dude had his torture chamber under that villa. And he, reportedly, killed over 500 people from that camp himself.


Hama wrote:
I just read that they had to severely tone down the insane, murderous psychopath that was Ralph Fienes' character. Because Spielberg thought that people would find him unrealistic. The dude had his torture chamber under that villa. And he, reportedly, killed over 500 people from that camp himself.

what a wonderful human being. Pardon me while i regurgitate.


LazarX wrote:
Many Jews did take the initiative in fleeing Poland, Germany and other European countries where Antisemitism was becoming a rising tide. Unfortunately many of the countries they fled to, including the United States which had a healthy amount of Antisemitism of its own, deported the majority of them right back.

wasn't that the point of ship of fools?

Scarab Sages

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Hama wrote:
I just read that they had to severely tone down the insane, murderous psychopath that was Ralph Fienes' character. Because Spielberg thought that people would find him unrealistic. The dude had his torture chamber under that villa. And he, reportedly, killed over 500 people from that camp himself.

There is an interesting story about a young black woman from Germany, studying in Tel Aviv who was flicking through a book in a bookstore in Hamburg, recognizing a of her birthmother. After buying the book, doing some more research and later talking to her grandmother (who had kept to herself, for reasons between fear and shame) had to find out that she was the granddaughter of Amon Göth - her own book about her coping with the shock of being the offspring of a psychopath of that magnitude is very interesting.

link


theshoveller wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:

The book that Spielberg bassed the movie on was written by an Australian, Thomas Keneally. I suggest you read the Chant of Jimmie Blacksmith. Keneally is considered one of our greatest novelists.

"Schindler's Ark (released in America as Schindler's List) is a Booker Prize-winning novel published in 1982 by Australian novelist Thomas Keneally, which was inspired by the efforts of Poldek Pfefferberg, a Holocaust survivor. In 1980 Pfefferberg met Keneally in his shop, and learning that he was a novelist, showed him his extensive files on Oskar Schindler. Keneally was interested, and Pfefferberg became an advisor for the book, accompanying Keneally to Poland where they visited Kraków and the sites associated with the Schindler story. The book was later adapted into the highly successful movie Schindler's List directed by Steven Spielberg.

There are some interesting contrasts between the book and the film. Keneally's Schindler is distinctly on the side of the angels from page 1. Spielberg gives him a redemptive character arc instead.

That difference may have been transmitted to Keneally by his primary source... Then again he "said in an interview in 2007 that what attracted him to Oskar Schindler was that "it was the fact that you couldn't say where opportunism ended and altruism began. And I like the subversive fact that the spirit breatheth where it will. That is, that good will emerged from the most unlikely places"".

My wife has met Thomas Keneally, her impression of him is that he is a happy wizened gnome that uses the full extent of his Irish ancestry to tell powerful stories that ask you to treat your fellow humans better....


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ShinHakkaider wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:
Schindler's List is also an example of a great movie that couldn't be made in Hollywood (and it wasn't, being shot entirely on location in Poland and Germany with mostly non-Hollywood actors, other than a few roles).

I'm curious as to what you mean by this because it sounds like you're saying that because a film isnt shot in Hollywood proper or uses American actors that it's not a Hollywood film.

Steven Spielberg is as Hollywood as Hollywood gets. The movie was financed and produced IN the Hollywood system by both Universal and Spielberg's own production company, Amblin.

It was basically Spielberg using what was effectively company petty cash to finance a pseudo-independent film. His original intent was to treat it as a documentary, which explains the small operating budget and the black and white filming: in his own words, he did not expect much (if any) success at the box office. At the time, neither Liam Neeson nor Ralph Fiennes were big stars, either; Ben Kingsley was actually the biggest name actor (from his Academy Award for Ghandi).


Well, if you want stories with a more personal slant and also inspired by true stories (this one more personal to the writer and director himself I believe) is Life is Beautiful. One that is a lovely movie, but also excessively tragic when you actually think about it and what it is actually about.


Krensky wrote:
Which explains the lack of funny.

Not much of a Seinfeld fan myself, but the joke wasn't that he was making out with his date at a Schindler's List screening but that he was caught making out with his date at said screening by his aunt or something and became a family pariah until, at least, the end of the episode.


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Speaking of which, I had a girlfriend back in college, our first date was Saving Private Ryan and we slept together for the first time after Life is Beautiful.

Then she graduated BU and moved back home to California and last time I checked she was a dentist in Seattle.

Dark Archive

If you ever run into me at a con, I have a Liam Neeson story from right when this film came out.

Short version, good guy.

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