Sundering Question

[CommissarTom]

Hello all, I'm here asking about using sunder maneuver as a part of a full round attack. I have a dragon boss that was going to attempt a sunder with it's claws, but these are secondary weapons. Does the sunder attempt get the -5 (-2 with multiattack) applied to it's cmb? Similarly what about iteratives and two weapon fighting?

[pipedreamsam]

1. This is a bit of a gray area for some, but most agree that sundering can be performed as part of a full-attack. Using secondary natural attacks (such as wings) would incur the normal penalty.

2. Natural attacks are different from normal attacks with weapons in that they never allow multiple attacks per round no matter how high the creature'so base attack bonus is (can you imagine if a dragon got to use all of its natural attacks multiple times!).

3. Similarly natural weapons do not require the use of two weapon fighting feat(s) and are treated separately from two weapon fighting alltogether. This is why you never see this feat listed in these creatures' statblocks.

EDIT: Claws for dragons are primary attacks. Secondary attacks are wings and tail slaps.

[CommissarTom]

pipedreamsam wrote:

1. This is a bit of a gray area for some, but most agree that sundering can be performed as part of a full-attack. Using secondary natural attacks (such as wings) would incur the normal penalty.

2. Natural attacks are different from normal attacks with weapons in that they never allow multiple attacks per round no matter how high the creature'so base attack bonus is (can you imagine if a dragon got to use all of its natural attacks multiple times!).

3. Similarly natural weapons do not require the use of two weapon fighting feat(s) and are treated separately from two weapon fighting alltogether. This is why you never see this feat listed in these creatures' statblocks.

EDIT: Claws for dragons are primary attacks. Secondary attacks are wings and tail slaps.

Thanks for being quick on the reply, but I meant more like if later on our barbarian started sundering on his last iterative, would he take the -5/10/15 penalty to CMB? Would two-weapon fighting penalties apply if a TWF-er tried to disarm?

Another bit would be if I would apply only half the str modifier to the CMB if I sundered with a secondary (thank you for pointing out claws are primary, I assumed the bite was)

[pipedreamsam]

You are correct, the barbarian would use the bab associated wth whichever attack he was using to calculate his CMB for the sunder attempt. This also holds true for tripping, disarming or any other combat maneuver that can be used in place of an attack during a full attack. Similarly TWF penalties would apply assuming the character was full attacking with both weapons.

When sundering with a secondary or off hand attack (in the case of TWF) the attacker does still incur the1/2 str penalty to the damage rolls. Remember a sunder is still an attack and it still does damage. The only difference is that the target of the attack is an object instead of another creature. Anything which affects attack or damage rolls is applied unless the source specifically states otherwise.

For example if a creature is applying 1-1/2 its' Str modifier to a damage roll (say from two-handing or a powerful natural attack like a dragon's bite) that damage is also added to the sunder's final damage result.

[James Risner]

Sunder, Disarm, and Trip can always swap out any attack.

Any bonus or penalty is applied, so multiattack, twf, iterative penalties and bless, good hope, etc all apply.

[KainPen]

Also note that Claws are not secondary weapons, a creature can have more then one primary attack. So there is no minus to those attacks, but attacks that do receive minus do apply to sunder attempts even two weapon fighting. Also note most people forget this you can lose you dex and dodge bonus to CMD if you are flatfooted