Toxitician the "poisoner" we have been waiting for?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


So... this guy kinda slipped under my radar but after reading again I noticed him and I have to say. Im intrigued. ..

I LOVE poisoners but they always have a hard time with... well... money... and poor scaling. This guy seems to finally be a poisoner that just might be useable...

Give him the Belier Bite feat so he can pioson ON TOP of using hi injections and it seems kinda fun.

What do you guys thibk? Yea or nae?


link for the archetype here


How does Belier's Bite help?

The injection ability is a melee touch attack, and it isn't a spell charge so you can't deliver it through an unarmed strike.

As for the archetype itself...eh, the need to make a standard action touch attack to inject is worse than the hypnotic stare's swift action. The rider conditions seem a little weaker too. OTOH Treatment vials are a straight buff and aren't that bad since they let the entire party play condition removal if the Toxitician shares some vials around. Not amazing, but it is at least something.

It certainly isn't a good poison archetype though. Injections have no interaction with conventional poison.


Well yeah its not a true "poisoner" but without a straight revamp of the entire poison system this is probably our best bet. Plays very similiar in feel to a Poisoner with Beliers Bite but doesnt cost a fortune.

I mainly suggested beliers bite since you can use the injection to hit saves and then hit them with injury or touch poisons with thier lowered saves. All being touch attacks are quite nice for sure.


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Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
Well yeah its not a true "poisoner" but without a straight revamp of the entire poison system this is probably our best bet.

You realize there was a straight revamp of the entire poison system don't you?


Milo v3 wrote:
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
Well yeah its not a true "poisoner" but without a straight revamp of the entire poison system this is probably our best bet.
You realize there was a straight revamp of the entire poison system don't you?

The revamp didn't really fix anything from the point of view of a PC poisoner.

Sure, most poisons cripple or kill within 5 failed saves instead of a dozen, but 5 failed saves in a row is still a bad joke. The only thing they do is make poisons more dangerous against PCs...except for characters who dump stats, who actually benefit since a 5 str character is less adversely affected than a 30 str character when hit with a str poison because they aren't likely to be making str based checks and thus don't care about a -2 penalty to Str rolls. The number of poisons worth a damn for PCs as a semi-regular thing can still be counted on one hand, and every single one of them is only worth it because they cause unconsciousness (Blue Whinnis, Drow Poison, Oil of Taggit). Poisons with a decent DC still cost a god-awful amount of money, aren't likely to polish off anything with a decent Fort save and take a painfully long amount of time to cripple or kill anything that doesn't have a decent Fort save.

You are still better off playing as an alchemist and using their class features and the Sticky Poison and Concentrated Poison discoveries to get some mileage out of Blue Whinnis/Drow Poison coated on a Longspear. It beats a convoluted multi-round procedure where you have to hope a creature fails multiple fort and not splatter you before that happens.


I thought the best poisoner was still a syringe spear and Numerian fluids. Drugs in general are the better poisons because the mechanics.


just dropping that here:

clicky for poison justice


Milo v3 wrote:
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
Well yeah its not a true "poisoner" but without a straight revamp of the entire poison system this is probably our best bet.
You realize there was a straight revamp of the entire poison system don't you?

What revamp? how so?

also I still feel the best poisoner ends up being. Alchemist grippili. with Eldrtich eritage nanite.
They get natural poisons. and then get that class's poison. with the alchemist's buffs.

Suppose depending on the game you could also snag vivi into dagermark for more buffs.

or investigator insteado f alch. but I dont think thats as good


shroudb wrote:

just dropping that here:

clicky for poison justice

THIS I'VE NEVER SEEN IT. I must buy this now hell yes buy it.

not perfect but bloody wonderful.

I think its far too dangerous for your groups though.. since if they brush up agianst you or catch you when you fall into a pit they get poisoned..

It.. lasts all day? I can't see any duration. it is once per day requries 10 mins.. but I don't see an end time stamp. so what it lasts all day? The only restriction i see is how many times you can swift action apply it to things/touch attack.

as near as I can tell you can't use the swift action while it is surpressed can you?
Oh this makes me damn excited!!

That, with the grippili poison skin (which I guess means being a grippili..I don't think you can get it as anythin else)
and or the nanite bloodline makes for some good crap.

Dex based alchemist with a neat weapon of some kind. Several of the poison skills.. few bomb skills
I'm happy


Zwordsman wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
Well yeah its not a true "poisoner" but without a straight revamp of the entire poison system this is probably our best bet.
You realize there was a straight revamp of the entire poison system don't you?

What revamp? how so?

also I still feel the best poisoner ends up being. Alchemist grippili. with Eldrtich eritage nanite.
They get natural poisons. and then get that class's poison. with the alchemist's buffs.

Suppose depending on the game you could also snag vivi into dagermark for more buffs.

or investigator insteado f alch. but I dont think thats as good

the link i provided has the new poison spec alchemist from dirty tactics toolbox.

essentially he just loses 1 discovery (since he can pick mutagen as a discovery) and gains a "poison" that not only damages but also can inflict various SERIOUS conditions like daze, frightned, staggered, blind, etc


shroudb wrote:


the link i provided has the new poison spec alchemist from dirty tactics toolbox.

essentially he just loses 1 discovery (since he can pick mutagen as a discovery) and gains a "poison" that not only damages but also can inflict various SERIOUS conditions like daze, frightned, staggered, blind, etc

It is wonderful..

Great with that Intx uses of poison alchemist discovery !
Or dual application if one has another poison (both lasting int hits!)

Also really makes me wanna use a damn blowgun too!

soooo happy thanks for pointing that out!
I'm going to have to buy that book just for that archetype usage!

its weird i don't see that link on the main alchemist page. Makes me wonder how much other thigns im missing that I dont' see..

I wish I could figure out how to look at a specific book's feats on that page too.

If there was ever a class abilitiy I wanted that Focus feat to increase the DC for it would be this!

I wonder how it interacts with some of the poison discoveries?
Like the one that makes poison holy, or able to affect undead etc..
If you just use it on yourself and it is valid until the time runs out?or what happens if its the ones that say it is destroyed after a while?

Too bad I don't see any way to make this poison inhaled. As near as I can tell you are only allowed to collect it for the purpose of weapon appllication.

would be great with inhaling to get a lot of people at once

Trap breaker toxicant sounds so fun. Though I lose poison immunity to other poisons. Always danger

Or Toxicant, Grenadier, Kobold's alchemical trapper.
Make claymore mines, bomb arrows coated with poisons. Hell of a surprise.


generally the book has some thingies that apply to poisons (mostly irrelevant, through 1-2 options are good):

kiiiinda ok
casty types
meh
could be nice
nice one
grit thingy


Boy I sure wish Alchemist had any offensive Extracts.. I always thought that was strange.. sure not a ton.. But like.. Let me thow a damn extract glass at someone for a bad effect! haha. That is really just Final fantasy Tactics in me though.

Boy. A good poison + toxic spell + magi missle could be fun on a bun.
Would be awesome with any of the poisons I mentioend before or toxictiion. Too bad not really a valid choice

trecherous toxin coudl work nicely with a vivic.. It is nice that you don't have to go into Dagger Mark poisone for that ability now.

Well good for a normal alchemist who VMCs with rogue too.

Oh.. I love powerful poison. combine that with furious focus and toxicant.. Hello effective.... Lovely for a hit and run sorta guy.

Inspiried swash+gunslinger+toxicant
Woul make a nice rapier-pistol-bomb user. If there was a way to get the toicant poison into inhaled etc.. which I don't think there is with how that is worded..

Yup. I want this book and alchemical guide.

thank you


Milo v3 wrote:
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
Well yeah its not a true "poisoner" but without a straight revamp of the entire poison system this is probably our best bet.
You realize there was a straight revamp of the entire poison system don't you?

When and where did Paizo do this?


Snowblind wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
Well yeah its not a true "poisoner" but without a straight revamp of the entire poison system this is probably our best bet.
You realize there was a straight revamp of the entire poison system don't you?

The revamp didn't really fix anything from the point of view of a PC poisoner.

Sure, most poisons cripple or kill within 5 failed saves instead of a dozen, but 5 failed saves in a row is still a bad joke. The only thing they do is make poisons more dangerous against PCs...except for characters who dump stats, who actually benefit since a 5 str character is less adversely affected than a 30 str character when hit with a str poison because they aren't likely to be making str based checks and thus don't care about a -2 penalty to Str rolls. The number of poisons worth a damn for PCs as a semi-regular thing can still be counted on one hand, and every single one of them is only worth it because they cause unconsciousness (Blue Whinnis, Drow Poison, Oil of Taggit). Poisons with a decent DC still cost a god-awful amount of money, aren't likely to polish off anything with a decent Fort save and take a painfully long amount of time to cripple or kill anything that doesn't have a decent Fort save.

You are still better off playing as an alchemist and using their class features and the Sticky Poison and Concentrated Poison discoveries to get some mileage out of Blue Whinnis/Drow Poison coated on a Longspear. It beats a convoluted multi-round procedure where you have to hope a creature fails multiple fort and not splatter you before that happens.

Actually, Dhabbi Spittle (nicknamed Fire Jackal Saliva) causes 1d6 acid and nausea. It may not one shot kill, but they can't act.

Plus cheap 50 gp.


Eric Hinkle wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
Well yeah its not a true "poisoner" but without a straight revamp of the entire poison system this is probably our best bet.
You realize there was a straight revamp of the entire poison system don't you?
When and where did Paizo do this?

I believe they're referring to the Diseases and Poisons Optional Rules that were published in Pathfinder Unchained.


Athel wrote:
Eric Hinkle wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
Well yeah its not a true "poisoner" but without a straight revamp of the entire poison system this is probably our best bet.
You realize there was a straight revamp of the entire poison system don't you?
When and where did Paizo do this?
I believe they're referring to the Diseases and Poisons Optional Rules that were published in Pathfinder Unchained.

Yeah I think thats what they refer to.

Though that doesn't help large portions, or for this conversation.
But its nifty for those who can potentially touch it


Omg!!! That archetypes looks rad!

And my GM isnt partial to Grippli (he dislikes furry races) so Vishkanya will have to do lol. Sleep poison ftw.

Grand Lodge

Grippli are Furry?


...furry?

Grippili frogs are just as anthropamorphised as a Vishkanya.. no?
There are also Nagaji. Which I think would be better due to the FCB.

Nagaji have +craft alch and +1/3 created poisons.
But that makes the FCB nice. + craft alchemy. And +1/3rd DC of CREATED poisons? lovely!
It does say created NOT crafted. So it should apply to plenty of poison choices! Milage may vary though depending on how your GM rolls.. but by RAW wording create means.. create so it should apply to that alch archetype's poison, or crafted poisons, probably other stuff I haven't noticed yet. Oh probably nagaji racial spit feat.

I haven't looked at the wording of poison bomb/cloud kill but I"m pretty sure it will not help that.. its a poison effect but not poison..?

Basically tons of choices whatever race you choose in the end.

but like i said.. Miliage may very. I've not had a gm disagree that create means create, but one might say create meant bodily created only (though I doubt this due to nagaji not actually having natural poisons) or they might claim that its refering to crafted as created.. Which I don't agree with (they'd have just said crafted)


I gm is not partial to "very animal" races lol. The one exception for him is Kitsune. But Tengu, the monkey people, Grippli, ect he isnt partial to lol. I guess it kinda throws things for him when you have a party of human looking things then Kermit the frog.

Vishkanya I am thinkin due yo their natural sleep poison as well.


Huh. he takes them? Cause.. aren't they still covered in scales, snake eyes and forked tongues?
I guess that is still humanish though.

Sleep poison is nice indeed.
DC is a bit harsh unless your Con heavy class. but hey more hp is always nice anyway


Yeah lol. If they are mostly human woth some minor animal features he doesnt care. If the major differnce between them and a normal animal is size and being bipedal then he has some issues.

I guess it didnt help that there was a game where the party consisted of a grippli, Tengu, a Gnoll, a catfolk, and a ratfolk....

We were pretty much a literal walking zoo....

Yeah... he put a stop to that ater that party lol...

Grand Lodge

Couldn't you just ask to reflavor the Grippli to appear more Human-like?

Maybe, like the japanese Akaname.


I was always viewing my potential Gripilli as looking like Frog from Crono Trigger..
Basically humanoid but the frog lil bits.


Athel wrote:
Eric Hinkle wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
Well yeah its not a true "poisoner" but without a straight revamp of the entire poison system this is probably our best bet.
You realize there was a straight revamp of the entire poison system don't you?
When and where did Paizo do this?
I believe they're referring to the Diseases and Poisons Optional Rules that were published in Pathfinder Unchained.

Ah! Thank you, I'll have to re-examine them.

Grand Lodge

Zwordsman wrote:

I was always viewing my potential Gripilli as looking like Frog from Crono Trigger..

Basically humanoid but the frog lil bits.

Yeah, that is still too "furry!?!" for this DM.

Somehow Kitsune get a free pass, because he/she obviously doesn't know the term "yiffing", or it's origins.


Its the kitsunes ability to shapechanged


shroudb wrote:

just dropping that here:

clicky for poison justice

Here is the weird... I can't seem to have the rights to access this archetype anymore..?

was it taken down?

I really wish I would have copied pasted the information then..


update: I guess all dirty Tactics stuff has been taken down.

Grand Lodge

Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
Its the kitsunes ability to shapechanged

Into a full on Fox. I would do it just to push the limits.

Silver Crusade

Huh, those new poison/disease rules are pretty nice, I might start using them, can't comment on anything else until DTH goes back up though.


N. Jolly wrote:
Huh, those new poison/disease rules are pretty nice, I might start using them, can't comment on anything else until DTH goes back up though.

it's a simple yet awesome archetype.

it trades mutagen (but doesn't restrict you from picking it up later) and gives you the ability to make your skin poisonous, dealing damage equal to your INT each time it ticks (starts at 1 round, scales with level) you apply it if they hit you with a natural attack or unarmed. Int+lvl times/day, as a swift you can extract your poison as a swift to either do a touch attack or apply to a weapon (with the same swift).

but the real kicker, is that as you get levels, (every 3 i think?) you start putting conditions on your poison, which quickly (i think lvl6-9 or so) start to become really potent, like daze and etc.

you also lose persistent mutagen and gain something minor, can't recall what


Yeah. Every 3 levels you add a status effect. eventually you can get like Fatigue, fear, neasuated, stun,bleed, etc.

It replaced mutagen and then that leve 14? thing that extends mutagen's shelf life. I think you only lost those two things.

Once a day. You took like 10 mins to prep a concoition. THen you drank it. after that the poison is on your body hitting anyone who touches you with natural or unarmed attack (I Forget the wording. .but it may kill anyone who touches you. Which would be troublesome. if it only affects those who attack you that would be great,. Though if it was any touch I guess that would mean unarmed attacks were precoated. So Either way it was has advantage and disadvantages)
That effect can be suspended for 1 hour as a standard action. can be turne back on early via astandard action.
As near as I can tell the "you touch me you get poisoned" portion doesn't have a uses per day thing.
as a swift action you could concentrate it and apply it to a weapon. This can be done class lv +int times a day I think it was?

Seemingly I saw no time limit on the poison either. Though I assume it resets upon sleeping. The d20 didn't have any notes on that not sure if the book did or not. Otherwise it wouldn't be a once a day concotion. I suppose though itm ight just last as long as you have uses left of it? That bit is a bit vague
---------
I kind of wish that the alchemist had the smoke bomb from ninja's where you can put a dose of poison into it.
It would be great to use smokebomb with this poison in it, and stinking cloud bomb, and cloud kill bomb in one round via fast bombs. Maybe even add in that entangling bomb.

That would make a really fun trap with the trap archetype (though you lose poison resistance/immunity there so that is kinda rough. Hard choice that one)
--------

Dirty toolbox also has a bunch fo feats that add to poison dc (as mentioned above) I think you can effecitvely add more to poisons than you can to spells now.

So when that ends up online again or when I get spare money to buy that pdf I will be making a poison focused guy. Poison and bombs! I just have to decide dex melee or crossbow (I like crossbows). Possible dips in inspired swash and or acebolts. But losing 2 uses of poisn and 2 bombs, and +1 dc to each is rather sad. But the advantages of thoe dips are high.

EDIT:
I think persistant mutagen is exchanged for the ability to eat a poison and keep it in your body than use that instead of your natural poison. Something like that

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