Unsworn Shaman, Minor Spirit and number of Hexes (FAQ?)


Rules Questions


45 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 10 people marked this as a favorite.

My question is: In what way does the Unsworn Shaman's Minor Spirit feature alter Hex?

Pre-errata, Minor Spirit replaced hex, meaning that Minor Spirit dictated the number of hexes an Unsworn Shaman could gain. However, as it is now, it only "alters hex".

Minor Spirit wrote:

At 1st level, the unsworn shaman also forms a temporary bond with a minor spirit each day, granting her access to a shaman or witch hex of her choosing, but not a major hex or a grand hex. She must make this selection each day when she prepares her spells for the day. Until she changes the minor spirit, she continues to have access to the shaman or witch hex. At 2nd level, she can instead select a hex from one of her wandering spirits selected for that day. If she selects a shaman or witch hex, she treats her shaman level as her witch level, and uses her Wisdom in place of her Intelligence for the purpose of that hex.

She can make temporary bonds with two minor spirits (thus gaining two hexes) at 4th level, and with one additional minor spirit (and hex) every 4 levels thereafter.

This ability replaces spirit and alters hex.

It does not mention that it removes any hexes gained at any levels (unlike for example some Arcanist archetypes that removes specific exploits gained at specific levels or many of the other Shaman archetypes that removes specific hexes gained at specific levels). It is not clear as to what it alters, as it went from removing the entire ability to "changing" it. For example, number of hexes gained can be vastly different as you no longer lose the hex class feat that grants a lot of hexes.

As I see it, there are three ways to interpret the number of hexes an Unsworn Shaman gains:
1: Like they did pre-errate. The errate was only to enable them to pick Hex Feats, removing the number of hexes gain from the hex class feature was just forgotten in the errata. One at level 1 and second at level 4 and every 4th level there after for a total of 6 hexes at level 20 (levels 1,4,8,12,16,20).
2: They gain one more than the regular Shaman (save only for Wandering Hex which puts the Unsworn 1 hex shorter). The Minor Spirit adds 1 hex and alters what hexes you're allowed to pick at mentioned levels while at level 2, 10 and 18 you gain regular static hexes. They gain a total of 9. (levels 1,2,4,8,10,12,16,18,20)
3: You gain both the hexes stated in the Hex class feature and in Minor Spirit as there is no mention in Minor Spirit to remove any hexes. This is a total of 14 hexes (level 1,2,4,4,8,8,10,12,12,16,16,18,20,20). I would actually say that this is the RAW at this moment.

While I do think #1 is the propper answer and #3 is a power-gamer's dream, I'd like to know for sure. As the errata could possibly intentionally give the Unsworn Shaman more hexes, as otherwise it would only gain 6 in total while a regular Shaman would get 10 (with wandering hex), almost double the amount as the Unsworn Shaman gains.


I ran across this archetype for the first time post-errata. When I read the language on its own I came to interpretation #2. It wasn't until I saw the discussion on this forum and the pre-errata language that I realized that interpretation #1 was also possible.

I thought the ability to pick more than one witch hex and gain one hex early was a fair trade for the spirit abilities you lose. I guess what I'm saying is that they probably wanted to do #1, but I think they left enough wiggle room for #2 and I hope they issue a "clarification" stating that #2 is how they wanted things to work.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I was in the same situation. It really does depend on what was intentional from the start whether replacing hex was just a misstake all around or if they just tried to make a quick fix to let them pick Hex Feats.
And #2 seems fair to me. I mean, it's really nice to have versatility as a player but the archetype actually grants less power on a daily basis. The Unsworn Shaman have effectively 6 changeable hexes and 3 static while the vanilla Shaman sits at 2/8. Already here we're losing 1 Hex for versatility. But the Unsworn also slows down all their spirit ability progression, gaining everything 2 levels later.

All in all, the only thing the Unsworn Shaman can do that the regular Shaman can't at a specific give day, is having more than one Witch hex at the same time. Otherwise, a carefully crafted Shaman is ahead in spirit abilities (equal in hexes by level 6 and beyond by level 12) and I wouldn't even really call them "stuck with what they got" as many will go for Chant, Evil Eye and more of the regular hexes that the Unsworn Shaman is unlikely to change away from.


I'm really split on #1 and #2. It really depends on the reasoning behind the errata. Either it was because they wanted to fix the issue with Hex Feats.

But then they could have just add a similar line like there is in the Bloodrager (Bloodrage counts as the barbarian's rage class feature for the purpose of feat prerequisites, feat abilities, magic item abilities, and spell effects). Maybe "replace hex" was just a missprint from the start and it never was supposed to be limited to 6 hexes in the first place.

Anyway, thanks everybody for marking.


I really don't like self bumps, but this doesn't get as much attention as it should (or should I consider titling my threads with "Paladin falling" or "Pathfinder 2E"?). This really means the difference between a useful archtype to a waste of paper in the printed books (because who would pick an archtype that is all around so much weaker, it's not even NPC material).


I've been struck by a Confusion Curse and have failed me save.


Shameless bump. This really is one of those FAQs where they need to correct strong ambiguity, not one of those "can I use this spell with this feat to break the game" kind of FAQ.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I wouldn't mind knowing the answer as well. I am working on a debuff tank shaman build Monk 1/Shaman X and looking at hexes as the primary debuff style. This would allow the build to function with more Witch hexes.

Shadow Lodge

I had a look at Unsworn Shaman an eon ago and can't remember all of its mechanics, but if #3 is even possibly RAW at the moment, it's absolutely worth being a FAQ candidate without even having a better look at it.


Another bump for the road. Maybe people are interested in this nowdays?


I think it's about time that I bring this up again. Now that it's been a while, my interpretation of the text has not really changed. It still seems as if the Unsworn Shaman gains 14 hexes in total, since no hexes are mentioned to be removed, only added.

I feel like this gets more and more important to answer as time goes, since the original writing of the archetype is getting more forgotten (and thus making my seemingly overpowered interpretation more intuitive for anyone new).


Bumping it like Rub-Eta, I'm still wondering what to say to my DMs about this one.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Every DM I've seen runs it as #3. The class feature doesn't say it removes hexes, so it doesn't.


And that seems... Odd. I mean, it's a huge power-boon over the vanilla Shaman. The only thing they really lose out on are 2 levels in spirit progression. That and the ability to pick up spirit hexes every other level, since they can do that every day instead.


Rub-Eta wrote:
This really is one of those FAQs where they need to correct strong ambiguity

Another shameless bump for you.

Yeah, it's like REALLY strong ambiguity. I'm relatively new to pathfinder after many years of 3.5 play and I'm thinking about making an unsworn shaman, but I'm hesitating precisely because of this issue. I'll probably just build #2 for now as it has the lowest risk of DM's thinking I'm being too munchkinish, but if #3 or #1 are the intended mechanics then that would completely change the power of the archetype (and arguably the whole class).


Over a year has passed since I started this thread.

My current interpritation of the Unsworn Shaman Archetype is:
You gain all regular hexes (at levels 2, 4, 8, 10, 12, 16, 18 and 20) and also those mentioned in the Minor Spirit class feature (at level 1, 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20). A total of 14 hexes.

The hexes gained from the normal Hex class feature are static, can not be changed between days and can only be picked from the generic Shaman hex list (Evil Eye, Chant, etc).
Only the hexes granted by the Minor Spirit class feature can be witch hexes (besides the one from the 'Witch Hex' hex) as well as spirit hexes (the spirits from the Wandering Spirit class feature at 2nd and 6th level) in addition to generic Shaman hexes (Evil Eye, Chant, etc). These hexes can be changed every day.
These additional, flexible hexes (and the ability to change the Spirit Animal's spirit type every day) are at the cost of ~2 levels in (Wandering) Spirit progression.

This is (unless I missed something) the only way to read and interpret the Archetype correctly right now, as pre-errata wording holds no authority anymore.

Liberty's Edge

Rub-Eta wrote:


Pre-errata, Minor Spirit replaced hex, meaning that Minor Spirit dictated the number of hexes an Unsworn Shaman could gain. However, as it is now, it only "alters hex".
Minor Spirit wrote:

At 1st level, the unsworn shaman also forms a temporary bond with a minor spirit each day, granting her access to a shaman or witch hex of her choosing, but not a major hex or a grand hex. She must make this selection each day when she prepares her spells for the day. Until she changes the minor spirit, she continues to have access to the shaman or witch hex. At 2nd level, she can instead select a hex from one of her wandering spirits selected for that day. If she selects a shaman or witch hex, she treats her shaman level as her witch level, and uses her Wisdom in place of her Intelligence for the purpose of that hex.

She can make temporary bonds with two minor spirits (thus gaining two hexes) at 4th level, and with one additional minor spirit (and hex) every 4 levels thereafter.

This ability replaces spirit and alters hex.

"Alter hex". You take hex and replace everything with what is in the new ability Minor Spirit unless the ability say otherwise.

The only difference between "replace" and "alter" is that with alter you still retain a feature called Hex if you need it for other abilities.


It does make sense what you say, Diego. But that also creates some confusion around other archetypes.

Primalist Bloodrager wrote:

At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a primalist can choose to take either his bloodline power or two barbarian rage powers. If the primalist chooses rage powers, those rage powers can be used in conjunction with his bloodrage, and his bloodrager level acts as his barbarian level when determining the effect of those bloodrage powers and any prerequisites. Any other prerequisites for a rage power must be met before a primalist can choose it. This ability does not count as the rage power class feature for determining feat prerequisites and other requirements.

This ability alters the bloodline class feature.

This would mean that a Primalist can not pick a bloodline (which includes bloodline powers and feats), while it also seems to insinuate that you can pick bloodline powers from your bloodline (and not just any bloodline).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Rub-Eta wrote:

It does make sense what you say, Diego. But that also creates some confusion around other archetypes.

Primalist Bloodrager wrote:

At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a primalist can choose to take either his bloodline power or two barbarian rage powers. If the primalist chooses rage powers, those rage powers can be used in conjunction with his bloodrage, and his bloodrager level acts as his barbarian level when determining the effect of those bloodrage powers and any prerequisites. Any other prerequisites for a rage power must be met before a primalist can choose it. This ability does not count as the rage power class feature for determining feat prerequisites and other requirements.

This ability alters the bloodline class feature.

This would mean that a Primalist can not pick a bloodline (which includes bloodline powers and feats), while it also seems to insinuate that you can pick bloodline powers from your bloodline (and not just any bloodline).

I don't agree with Diego that "alter" as a general rule means "replace entirely." However, I do agree that in this instance the hex feature is significantly rewritten by the alteration. I just haven't figured out exactly how that alteration works in play.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I believe that I've figured it out (by RAW, at least). You've got to compare each and every ability in the archetype to what it alters or replaces.

Unsworn Minor Spirit replaces all of the standard Shaman's Spirit class feature.

Unsworn Wandering Spirit replaces all of the standard Shaman's Wandering Hex class feature.

The cost of the archetype includes:
NO Spirit Ability from a base spirit.
DELAYED Spirit Magic (based on her wandering spirit) to 2nd level
DELAYED Spirit Animal to 2nd level
NO Greater Spirit Ability from a base spirit and DELAYED from Wandering Spirit
NO True Spirit Ability from a base spirit and DELAYED from a Wandering Spirit
LIMITED Hex choices (to Witch or Shaman or wandering spirit)
NO 10th or 18th level Hex
NO (never) Major or Grand Hex
NO Wandering Hex at 14th
NO Wandering Hex at 20th

The benefit of the archetype includes:
EARLY access to Wandering Spirit at 2nd level
EARLY access to Hex at 1st level (with limits)
EARLY access to Wandering Hex at 2nd level
Second DELAYED Wandering Spirit at 6th level
Daily FLEXIBILITY of Hexes, Spirit Magic, and Spirit Abilities

Now, Hexes:

1st: Shaman or Witch Hex (flexible)
2nd: Wandering Spirit Hex (or Generic Shaman or Witch Hex)
4th: Shaman or Witch Hex (flexible)
8th: Shaman or Witch Hex (flexible)
12th: Shaman or Witch Hex (flexible)
16th: Shaman or Witch Hex (flexible)
20th: Shaman or Witch Hex (flexible)

+1 Hex (1st), -2 Hexes (10th, 18th), -2 Wandering Hexes (14th, 20th) = -3 Hex vs. Standard Shaman

Getting a whole lot of flexibility in return.

EDIT: Reasoning: The Minor Spirit class feature alters the frequency and type of Hexes, so the original progression (and options) are deleted and the new progression is substituted. You'll find this alteration to Smite Evil progression in several Paladin archetypes.

EDIT2: They definitely could have made it more straight forward if they had simply gone feature by feature instead of skipping around in the write-up.


So why do you not gain any hexes mentioned in the regular hex class feature? (and/or why do you still gain one at level 2?)
Remember that the Minor Spirit class feature grants you hexes from minor spirits, it does not call out to alter/replace the hexes gained at those specific levels (unlike other archetypes).

EDITED


Okay, now I've read through your post thoroughly. And I think you're more confused than anyone else.

Blake's Tiger wrote:
I believe that I've figured it out (by RAW, at least). You've got to compare each and every ability in the archetype to what it alters or replaces.

If you "figured it out", it's RAI. The problem is that you can't compare an ability to what it alters when it's not mentioned WHAT is altered. Unlike other Shaman Archetypes, no hexes are mentioned to be replaced.

Blake's Tiger wrote:


The cost of the archetype includes:
NO Spirit Ability from a base spirit.

There is no "base spirit" in regards to Unsworn Shaman.

Blake's Tiger wrote:
NO 10th or 18th level Hex

What about 2nd level? The Minor Spirit does not grant you a hex at 2nd level either.

Blake's Tiger wrote:
NO (never) Major or Grand Hex

This is not removed by the archetype, it was never present in the Shaman class at all.

Blake's Tiger wrote:


1st: Shaman or Witch Hex (flexible)
2nd: Wandering Spirit Hex (or Generic Shaman or Witch Hex)
4th: Shaman or Witch Hex (flexible)
8th: Shaman or Witch Hex (flexible)
12th: Shaman or Witch Hex (flexible)
16th: Shaman or Witch Hex (flexible)
20th: Shaman or Witch Hex (flexible)

Again, where does the level 2 hex come from? And why do you remove hexes when it's never mentioned (unlike other archetypes)? The Minor Spirit class feature says that the hexes gained from the Minor Spirit class feature can come from Wandering Spirits, at 2nd level.

Blake's Tiger wrote:
EDIT: Reasoning: The Minor Spirit class feature alters the frequency and type of Hexes, so the original progression (and options) are deleted and the new progression is substituted. You'll find this alteration to Smite Evil progression in several Paladin archetypes.

Where does it state what Minor Spirit alters in the Hex class feature? The Paladin example you use can not be related to this, as those archetypes do explicitly state what they alter.

This is my problem and that is why I'm asking for FAQ clicks (since a good and solid interpretation hasn't sprung up in a year).
EDITED


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Rub-Eta wrote:
And I think you're more confused than anyone else.

Gosh, thanks. I'll see myself out then.


Blake's Tiger wrote:
Rub-Eta wrote:
And I think you're more confused than anyone else.
Gosh, thanks. I'll see myself out then.

I'm sorry. But I did say "I think" in reservation to that you might know more than I gave you credit for. I still value your input in this matter, since I havn't really seen anything more concrete in this matter. Our disagreement, in how it seems to work, fuels the need for clarification in this matter as well. Thank you.

Liberty's Edge

Rub-Eta wrote:

It does make sense what you say, Diego. But that also creates some confusion around other archetypes.

Primalist Bloodrager wrote:

At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a primalist can choose to take either his bloodline power or two barbarian rage powers. If the primalist chooses rage powers, those rage powers can be used in conjunction with his bloodrage, and his bloodrager level acts as his barbarian level when determining the effect of those bloodrage powers and any prerequisites. Any other prerequisites for a rage power must be met before a primalist can choose it. This ability does not count as the rage power class feature for determining feat prerequisites and other requirements.

This ability alters the bloodline class feature.

This would mean that a Primalist can not pick a bloodline (which includes bloodline powers and feats), while it also seems to insinuate that you can pick bloodline powers from your bloodline (and not just any bloodline).

Actually it say: "This ability alters the bloodline class feature.", so you maintain the bloodline class feature.

The problem is that the altered version don't maintain the phrase: "A bloodrager must pick one bloodline upon taking his first level of bloodrager. Once made, this choice cannot be changed."

AFAIK the only point where in the rules where it is explained how substitutions and alterations to the abilities work is in the APG, under Alternate class Feature and that section of the rules say that the new ability replace completely the original ability, not only selected parts.

Blake's Tiger wrote:


I don't agree with Diego that "alter" as a general rule means "replace entirely." However, I do agree that in this instance the hex feature is significantly rewritten by the alteration. I just haven't figured out exactly how that alteration works in play.

Can you find a piece of the rules that say something different?

If alter modify only some part of a ability it must explain exactly what it retain. Or, in alternative, what it modify, with a explicit mention saying that no other part of the ability is changed. If it don't say either thing, we should assume the parts not cited are removed.


Yes, but if we should assume that the Primalist archetype retains phrases from the original class feature it alters, should we do the same for the Unsworn Shaman's Minor Spirit?
I did flip through my APG and I was surprised that it didn't mention anything specific about "replace" and "alters". I guess it's assumed that the archetypes themselves should be detailed enough to not leave this ambiguity.

Liberty's Edge

Rub-Eta wrote:

Yes, but if we should assume that the Primalist archetype retains phrases from the original class feature it alters, should we do the same for the Unsworn Shaman's Minor Spirit?

I did flip through my APG and I was surprised that it didn't mention anything specific about "replace" and "alters". I guess it's assumed that the archetypes themselves should be detailed enough to not leave this ambiguity.

I assume it will not retain anything that isn't explicitly stated it retain, unless its absence broke the ability.

In the post above, the phrase "Actually it say: "This ability alters the bloodline class feature.", so you maintain the bloodline class feature." mean that the Primalist Bloodrager maintain a class feature called Bloodline, so if he has other abilities depending on having that class feature he has it. Not that he maintain the ability to choose a bloodline at level 1.

As not having a bloodline (not the Bloodrager class feature Bloodline, but a bloodline like Abyssal, Draconic, etc. [aargh, again the same word meaning different things]) will break the ability, we should assume that he still have to choose a bloodline, but the altered version of the class feature don't say that.

Sadly the contributors to Paizo products aren't always consistent on how they write.


Hm, you may be right. I'm really confused over the intention of the errata (as I mentioned earlier in the thread, if it's just to enable the Unsworn Shaman to pick up hex feats, they could have explicitly allowed so). I hope this will be cleared out.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

First and foremost, I agree that this archetype needs a FAQ or, probably, an errata.

Diego, I believe that you're not actually disagreeing with me. We both say that "alter" changes what it references and leaves what it doesn't touch. If we're not saying the same thing, then you're saying "alter" = "replace," and that's not the case. In this particular situation, the alteration references type of hex and frequency.

If the Minor Spirit replaced--not simply altered what I read it to alter--Hex, then you wouldn't have access to any Shaman hexes or know how to calculate save DC because both save DC calculation and the description for all Shaman hexes are in the Hex feature text.

I did misread Minor Spirit in that it does not grant you a 2nd level Hex. I missed the word "instead." So what it does is allow you to use Wandering Spirit hexes in your flexible Minor Spirit slot.

I meant Great Spirit Ability (not Major Hex) and True Spirit Ability (not Grand Hex).

My insight is within the parenthetical. Two are interpretations and the other is mathematical.

Minor Spirit wrote:
She can make temporary bonds with two minor spirits (thus gaining two hexes) at 4th level, and with one additional minor spirit (and hex) every 4 levels thereafter.

Subjective: Minor Spirits do not exist outside the Unsworn Shaman archetype. Their purpose, as defined, is to give an Unsworn Shaman access to a flexible hex slot (to be filled with a Shaman, Witch, or Wandering Spirit hex). EDIT: Minor Spirit alters how the Shaman gets hexes, including the frequency that they are gained.

Minor Spirit wrote:
. . . (thus gaining two hexes) . . .

Mathematical: If an Unsworn Shaman kept the base Shaman's hexes in the table, then when the Unsworn Shaman bonded with his second minor spirit at 4th level, he would [thus gain 4 hexes].

Minor Spirit wrote:
. . . additional minor spirit (and hex) . . .

Subjective: I interpret the parenthetical to denote equivalency between the term minor spirit and hex, especially since minor spirit does nothing else. Like in a contract: Blake S. Tiger (Client), or like in a journal article: United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Everywhere in the the contract where you see Client, you know it means Blake S. Tiger, and everywhere in the article where you see CDC, you know it means the institution's full name.

So the way I read it, after all the replacements and alterations is this:

Unsworn Shaman

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Unchanged

Spell Casting

Unchanged

Orisons

Unchanged

Spirit
Minor Spirit

At 1st level, the unsworn shaman also forms a temporary bond with a minor spirit each day, granting her access to a shaman or witch hex of her choosing, but not a major hex or a grand hex. She must make this selection each day when she prepares her spells for the day. Until she changes the minor spirit, she continues to have access to the shaman or witch hex. At 2nd level, she can instead select a hex from one of her wandering spirits selected for that day.

Spirit Animal

Unchanged except for the addition of:
At 2nd level, an unsworn shaman's spirit animal gains the spirit animal bonus from one of her wandering spirits (see below). This bonus can be changed each day when the shaman prepares spells, but it must correspond to one of the shaman's wandering spirits.
NOTE: The spirit animal had no spirit animal bonus before 2nd level because the Unsworn Shaman doesn't have the Spirit ability.

Delivery Touch Spells

Unchanged

Spirit Magic

At 2nd level, a shaman can spontaneously cast a limited number of spells per day beyond those she prepared ahead of time. She has one spell slot per day of each shaman spell level she can cast, not including orisons. She can choose these spells from the list of spells granted by her spirits (see the spirit class feature and the wandering spirit class feature) at the time she casts them. She can enhance these spells using any metamagic feat that she knows, using up a higher-level spell slot as required by the feat and increasing the time to cast the spell (see Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats).

Hex

She can make temporary bonds with two minor spirits (thus gaining two hexes) at 4th level, and with one additional minor spirit (and hex) every 4 levels thereafter.

"Using a hex. . ." onward is unchanged.

Wandering Spirit

At 2nd level, the unsworn shaman gains access to the wandering spirit class feature. At 10th level, she gains the abilities listed in the greater version of her wandering spirit. At 18th level, she gains the abilities listed in the true version of her wandering spirit.

Additionally, at 6th level, she also gains a second wandering spirit, gaining the abilities listed in the greater version of that spirit at 14th level, and the abilities listed in the true version at 20th level.

Wandering Hex

Manifestation

Unchanged, but has no effect because there is not Spirit class feature.

EDIT2: This should go up where I discuss my interpretation of how the Unsworn Shaman gets hexes in a different manner than the base Shaman, but I don't want to confuse anyone already reading.

Shaman wrote:
A shaman learns a number of magical tricks, called hexes. . .
Unsworn Shaman wrote:
[T]he unsworn shaman also forms a temporary bond with a minor spirit each day, granting her access to a shaman or witch hex of her choosing. . .

The how is changed.

The following sentence changes the when.

Shaman wrote:
At 2nd level, a shaman learns one hex. At 4th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 16th, 18th, and 20th level, the shaman learns new hexes.
Unsworn Shaman wrote:
At 1st level [she] forms a temporary bond with a minor spirit [and] [s]he can make temporary bonds with two minor spirits (thus gaining two hexes)at 4th level , and with one additional minor spirit (and hex) every 4 levels thereafter.


Are there any updates on this? I'm planning on running a Shaman in the coming weeks and I'd like to know if there has been official word on how this is supposed to work or if it's up to GMs to decide between vastly different power levels for an archetype.


Nothing that I'm aware of, no. So it's up to your DM.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Big thanks to Blake's Tiger for her/his reasoned, thorough write-up and the obvious effort s/he's put into clarifying this issue for others.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I too thank him for his point of view of how Minor Spirit alters the Hex class feature. But the issue still stands, no interpretation can be verified in a breakdown. It's impossible at this point since we are missing support in the rules to any interpretation (edit: not really true, see below). The how and when seems perfectly reasonable BUT it's also realistic that it's absolutely not the case.

EDIT: Going back again after more than one year, I'm leaning more to alternative #3 than before (which conflicts with Blake's Tiger's breakdown). It does not say that it removes any hexes gained and it doesn't say that it alters the number of hexes gained from the hex class feature (and there are no rules that dictates how class features are altered by default). I'm not saying that this is how it should be. I'm saying that this is what is written, at this point.

Liberty's Edge

I would love an official FAQ/Errata on this as well. I was looking at making a shaman and like the concept of the unsworn shaman, but the RAI is vague on Minor Spirit, so I ended up finding this thread.

I kind of agree with Rub-Eta that the RAW is #3, since it doesn't explicitly remove any hexes, yet that interpretation does also feel kind of power-game-ish. Considering it's been almost two years of this thread not being answered, though, my hopes aren't exactly high... Dx


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Unfortunately I can't hit FAQ twice, I have hoped for clarification of this and related issues since Shaman Errata.

Besides the central problems raised by Rub-Eta, I would only add these secondary issues...
Which I believe further highlight the subtext behind the central problem, namely that judgement call on balance/design is critical to make sense of it all. And IMHO the same is true of secondary issues, namely Extra Hex Feat which Unsworn was seemingly Errata'd specifically to qualify for, yet the Feat rules text conflicts with Unsworn's rules text.

Repost from old thread:
------------------------------------------------------------------

Not entirely clear if Unsworn Shaman can select "Spirit" Hexes outside bounds of Wandering Spirit.
(partly hinges on definition of "Shaman Hex" -> Does that mean "Generic List Shaman Hex"? Note: same wording used in Gnome Racial RCB, for example.)
Alot of rules text is left with references to no longer existing abilities (e.g. Spirit).
Besides the central portions of the class, the 20th level capstone Manifestation (not modified by Archetype) references Spirit: WHAT THE???

Unsworn was Errata'd to only "alter" Hex instead of "replace" it,
but since that seems to be a wholesale/complete "alteration" (no specific alterations are given), the only reason for the change seems to be the outcome of now allowing Unsowrn to qualify for taking Extra Hex Feat (by still having the Hex ability technically).
Great, they needed it (the Feat).
Except Extra Hex Feat is worded to only work with "Spirit" Hexes, which Unsworn do not have.
" If you are a shaman, it must be a hex granted by your spirit rather than one from a wandering spirit."
(albeit said wording is effectively nonsensical in Unsworn's case, since it phrases it as assuming you have a spirit, instead of just a blanket ban on wandering spirit... never mind issue of Minor Spirits which it doesn't address... So hard to take as functional rule against them)

Should it work for Unsworn's Wandering/Minor Spirits?
Should it work for GENERIC Shaman Hexes for Unsworn and/or ALL Shamans?
If it's not meant to work for Unsworn, why else did their Errata specifically change the wording re: Replace/Alter so that they could qualify for it... With no other apparent direct functionality change?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, other pending Shaman Errata/FAQ issues not specific to Unsworn:

Question of Familiar Archetypes replacing Deliver Touch Spells & Shaman gettiing "independent" "Deliver Spells & Hex" ability allowing them to retain "Deliver Spells" ability alongside whatever the Familiar Archetype grants. (?)
Can Shamans change Familiar's Archetype when replacing dead ones with the "same type"?
Or is the Archetype choice fixed at the same time the Base Familiar type is fixed?
Shamans qualify for Improved Familiar by standard reading, so what can they do with it?
Does it allow swapping out at-will from the new list, i.e normal function?
A one-time new selection of one new "Improved" Familiar type?
Or would it only work for multi-class builds who already qualify for Improved Familiar and can then use that as their Spirit Animal as well?

Heaven's Sunburn ability:
"ongoing"/DoT(1rnd) and provokes Concentration check, or instantaneous (and only glow effect is 1rnd)?
Grammar isn't clear:
"The creature takes 1d6 points of fire damage for every 2 levels the shaman possesses and emits bright light for 1 round."
Grammatically/Plausibly could go either way, so I'm not sure.

Heaven spirit animal:
"Star map": is the same as Oracle "start CHART"? Or Half-Elf gear star CHART? or something completely different?
What is the effect of the nimbus rulewise? Cannot stealth, or penality to stealth, illumination to area ?

Wind's True Spirit Ability references turning into Lightning Elemental as Elemental Body IV...
While Lightning Elementals are a thing, that is not within scope of EBIV, so what unique abilities are gained?

Flexible Hex Feat strangely "favors" the Wandering Hex, i.e. only allows switching to a Hex of your Wandering Spirit (from your Main Spirit), but not vice versa. Intended?
Also doesn't allow selecting generic Shaman Hexes...? Intended? There isn't any "Spirit" flavor/fluff text to prevent these AFAIK.


Wow, I wasn't even aware of the Extra Hex Feat issue, I've only ever referenced the one from the APG. Since the ACG one is more specific (and also the more recently released one), it is the one to take precedence. This takes it to a completely new level.

I really don't like that it's a requirement, in attempting to understand how this really works, to know that there was an errata 2 years ago and what its' hypothetical intention really were - Before a new player realizes that it can't be understood.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Can someone explain to me the Alter vs Replace change?

I don't even know if it is relevant? Wasn't Flurry of Maneuver a "replace" and maintained the restrictions of Flurry of Blows? So that would indicate replace vs alter has no relevance to this?


If it wasn't relevant then I'm even more confused about why they even bothered to change it - as it's less correct now than before.

However: Flurry of Maneuver re-state restrictions from FOB, which was replaced.
But the issue here is that the class ability is altered (unlike pre-errata, when it entirely replaced the Hex class feature), but we have no knowledge of how or what is altered - this indicates that everything within the original shaman Hex class feature still stands (which seems a bit off), since nothings really is altered.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

The changes:

Quote:

unsworn shaman (archetype)

an unsworn shaman never binds herself to one specific spirit, always making new deals as she deems necessary for the circumstances that she
finds herself in. while this {+vacillation+} weakens the powers she can access from any one spirit, it gives her access to a broader overall range of abilities.

minor spirit (su): at 1st level, the unsworn shaman [-also-] forms a temporary bond with a minor spirit each day, granting her access to a {+shaman or+} witch hex of her choosing, but not a major hex or a grand hex. she must make this selection each day when she prepares her spells for the day. until she changes the minor spirit, she continues to have access to the {+shaman or+} witch hex.

at 2nd level, she can instead select a hex from one of her wandering spirits selected for that day. if she selects a witch hex, she treats her shaman level as her witch [-level,-] {+level+} and uses her wisdom in place of her intelligence for the purpose of that hex. she can make temporary bonds with two minor spirits (thus gaining two hexes) at 4th level, and with one additional minor spirit (and hex) every 4 levels thereafter. this ability replaces spirit and {+alters+} hex.

Very minor changes between versions. Removal of "also", "adding "vacillation", removing a comma, adding "shaman or" to the type of hex and finally adding "alters" before hex.

So the key is a signal that they wanted to make this something you could take "Extra Hex"?


Yes. And maybe it never was intended to say "replace" (which lead to the first interpretation in my OP pre-errata) and was always supposed to say "alter" (which wouldn support the third interpretation in my OP much more).

It further complicates things since the change still doesn't allow one to take "Extra Hex", once you read into it. This means that the errata was more or less pointless, unless it has decisive bearing on how to interpret the number of hexes gained.

Paizo Employee Official Rules Response

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Answered in FAQ!

FAQ wrote:

Unsworn Shaman: The unsworn shaman’s minor spirit ability tells you exactly when you gain hexes, but it doesn’t technically say you don’t gain the other hexes from the class progression. Pre-errata, it replaced the hex class feature entirely, which unambiguously removed them. How many hexes does the unsworn shaman receive?

Unsworn shaman still only receives the hexes from minor spirit and does not gain hexes at any other levels. The change from ‘replaces’ to ‘alters’ fixes a problem where the unsworn shaman used to have hexes while simultaneously removing the hex class feature, but the way the minor spirit ability alters the hex class feature is that it changes when you gain hexes to the listed levels.


Even though I'm a bit disappointed in the answer to the FAQ, I'm honored that you answered my question. Thank you, PDT!


The FAQ is very helpful but I still am not sure if an Unsworn Shaman can take the Extra Hex feat. The feat states a shaman can only select a hex from "your spirit rather than one from a wandering spirit". Does a minor spirit qualify as a spirit in this case? At 2nd level the archetype "gains access to the wandering spirit class feature". Does this mean that the minor spirits are now all wandering spirits, and thus not available for Extra Hex?

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Unsworn Shaman, Minor Spirit and number of Hexes (FAQ?) All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.