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I've seen a number of Druid build using the Animal Soul feat to benefit from spells like animal growth and whatnot. Lately though I looked at the feat in Archive of Nethys here.
It's distinctly different from the wording I remember in the Advanced Class guide, which seemed to indicate you could cast these kinds of spells on yourself to benefit from them, whereas the wording in the AoN seems to suggest the feat isn't meant to do that, but rather exclusively effect offensive spells your enemies cast on you that would work on humanoids but not animals, like charm person. Is this an errata I missed somehow? Which is the correct interpretation?
Yes, they nerfed it to Hades.
If you look at Pathfinder SRD, you'll see the Animal Soul new wording at the top with the original wording crossed out at the bottom. There doesn't seem to be a FAQ reference for the Advance Class Guide - but they made a change.
Yeah, they changed it. For the worse.
Used to be a really interesting Feat.
It was errata'd not FAQ'd. Check the ACG product page and download the errata to see what's happened to the book.
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I think it's an interesting feat in this incarnation, but it seems like an entirely new feat rather than a revision of the old one. There's room for both feats, I'm not sure why they removed one and put the other in.
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Goliath Druid is still about changing shape, though. I wanted to play something more like a druidic version of a paladin. And before people ask "why not just play a paladin?" It's because Wrath of the Righteous has a specific vision of paladin stuff (namely gothic plate and Le Morte D'Arthur) that really doesn't mesh with my idea (namely scale and chain armor and Bernard Cornwell's Warlord Chronicles).
Well, there is the nature fang druid, which trades out wild shape for a bunch of slayer stuff (studied target, talents, etc). The bonuses about balance out at least.
It ends up like a ranger with a trade of BAB and skill points for full casting. So not bad, overall, and it could work for your idea.
It might have been better with animal growth or atavism, but still, it suffices.
EDIT- ah...and I see why this was nerfed to hell and back. I was trying to counter Deighton Thrane's comment that goliath druids would do great with animal soul. I THOUGHT that it wouldn't work, because of the polymorph no stacking rules... but then while researching, I realized that the big buffed I mentioned above were only transmutation, which seems to lack that rule.
So yeah... if this was just a thing that buffed non-wildshaping druids (and a few other specific classes/archetypes), then it would be fine. But no, this is a buff to wildshaped ones as well. While it is not hard to refute animal growth ('normal size' and all that), atavism is alive and well gives a +4 to all stats and +2 natural armor. All from a 4th level spell that high level druids can practically spam on themselves for +2 to all saves, +2 to DCs, +2 hp/hd, +2 attack... so on and so forth, and that all stacks with practically everything else since it is template stuff.
Pathfinder altered polymorph rules specifically to avoid druidzilla... and this edges our druids a bit more towards that. They are already one of the most powerful classes, and wildshaping ones don't need that kind of help.
While you can nerf the specific spells that make animal soul over powered... it kinda ruins their intended purpose (spells meant purely for your animal companions that are just really nice buffs that don't clash with most other buffs). Also, it is harder to errata the spells since they are in ultimate magic, which is a much older publication that people were not expecting more errata for...
yeah...a general theme for ACG is that Paizo created monsters it wasn't prepared for, and then killed them in errata.
it grants immunity to a rather large number of spells and effects... pretty powerful for a single feat.
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It's arguably more powerful in some ways, but is far less interesting.
It's just a passive ability that might save your bacon every now and then, whereas pre-errata Animal Soul was an active ability that opened up new possibilities.
I was actually originally planning to go Nature Fang anyway. It's just that what I'd been hearing here says it's a terrible trade off without pre-errata Animal Soul to soften the blow.
Eh- you are a 9 level caster with 3/4 BAB+nice scaling boost to attack/damage, as well as decent proficiencies, two great saves, an animal companion, and various other goodies.
Now, are you no longer a huge flying, pouncing machine with a million claws, or someone with the mastery of reach and large weapons like the goliath druid? Sure. But in general, druid is considered one of the most powerful classes in the game. Even taking a step down from that...you are a solid character with a lot to contribute.
You are not going core only monk here. You are somewhat around clerics, from my guestimation.
I think it's an interesting feat in this incarnation, but it seems like an entirely new feat rather than a revision of the old one. There's room for both feats, I'm not sure why they removed one and put the other in.
Balance, most likely.
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it grants immunity to a rather large number of spells and effects... pretty powerful for a single feat.
Can someone give me some examples of what exactly this feat is granting immunity to? It sounds like the "charm, hold, etc etc person" spells wouldn't work anymore, but I'm sure there's more to it than that.
it grants immunity to a rather large number of spells and effects... pretty powerful for a single feat.Can someone give me some examples of what exactly this feat is granting immunity to? It sounds like the "charm, hold, etc etc person" spells wouldn't work anymore, but I'm sure there's more to it than that.
No you pretty much nailed it.
Anything targeting just humanoids now fails. (Assuming you are a humanoid).
Charm, Hold, Enlarge, Reduce... there are others but it is REALLY spread out.
Written another way, they could have published the spell as granting immunity to the following list of spells:
probably about a full page worth.
Sounds good to me!
It also protects you entirely from Favored Enemy and similar abilities that target specific types and subtypes.
It also protects you entirely from Favored Enemy and similar abilities that target specific types and subtypes.
Ooh, yeah that too!
The real reason Animal Soul was changed was so that Spirit Guide Nature Oracles could take back the mantle of most powerful class from Sylvan Razmiran Priest Sorcerers.
lunar mystery oracle + 2 levels of paladin (now that divine protection was also nerfed) + awaken (spirit guide oracle archtype gets it) + maximized metamagic rod. Your HD, saves, attack, damage, skills, ect are now only limited by how much money you have. It can recreate PUN PUN and I would go so far as to say that it is the strongest potential character in all of pathfinder. Animal soul was a great and fun feat that opened up so much potential, but unfortunately one of those potentials was too strong :-/ If possible it would have been nicer to specifically disallow it with awaken, but probably due to the other potential issues brought up in this thread and the fact that awaken was ported from 3.5, they just said "f$*k it, nerf hammers for everyone."
For the fun sake of math, a 12th lvl character has 108k gp. rod costs 54k (lets play it safe and not have him craft it) so that leaves 54k left, divide by 2k and you have 27 castings so a total increase in cha of 81 on a Cha based casting class who gets cha to saves and AC. Hmm, +40 DCs? yes please!! (with a base con of 14 that is also +405hp. not too shabby)
With pre-errata Animal Soul and a sufficiently coordinated party, Nature Oracles could get their Charisma to everyone's saves.
Now, my favorite use for it is for ghosts, to make them immune to loads of anti-undead abilities.
...which would mean that atavism gives +2 to everybody's saves, as well as the tons of +2 onto the oracle itself.
Again...there are reasons why they realized that the original animal soul was a bit much for a feat with near zero prereqs for some classes/archetypes.
lunar mystery oracle + 2 levels of paladin (now that divine protection was also nerfed) + awaken (spirit guide oracle archtype gets it) + maximized metamagic rod. Your HD, saves, attack, damage, skills, ect are now only limited by how much money you have. It can recreate PUN PUN and I would go so far as to say that it is the strongest potential character in all of pathfinder. Animal soul was a great and fun feat that opened up so much potential, but unfortunately one of those potentials was too strong :-/ If possible it would have been nicer to specifically disallow it with awaken, but probably due to the other potential issues brought up in this thread and the fact that awaken was ported from 3.5, they just said "f$*k it, nerf hammers for everyone."
For the fun sake of math, a 12th lvl character has 108k gp. rod costs 54k (lets play it safe and not have him craft it) so that leaves 54k left, divide by 2k and you have 27 castings so a total increase in cha of 81 on a Cha based casting class who gets cha to saves and AC. Hmm, +40 DCs? yes please!! (with a base con of 14 that is also +120hp. not too shabby)
Lunar Oracle Mystery actually does not work (without a dip) as it cannot meet the Animal Soul prereqs with Primal Companion as it is not the Animal Companion or Mount Class feature. Sylvan Sorcerers on the other hand...
Hmm "functions as an animal companion....with a druid level equal to your oracle." Yeah I'm wrong. It is a feature that works in all ways as though it was an animal companion (except limited animal list) but because it is labeled differently, by RAW it doesn't work. Sylvan also doesn't work unless they can somehow get the ability to cast awaken because awaken calls for an increasing will save DC with every casting of it. .....huh. Actually I suppose you could cast it from a scroll with UMD. Costs a little more but it is pretty damn worth it.
Just research an Arcane version of Awaken. Baba Yaga did it.*
Just research an Arcane version of Awaken. Baba Yaga did it.*
Or duplicate Awaken with Wish (Blood Money!). Or be a Razmiran Priest and cast free Awakens out of your 6th level spell slots using a scroll.
it grants immunity to a rather large number of spells and effects... pretty powerful for a single feat.Can someone give me some examples of what exactly this feat is granting immunity to? It sounds like the "charm, hold, etc etc person" spells wouldn't work anymore, but I'm sure there's more to it than that.
There are a lot of spells with humanoid in the target like besides the person spells:
Daze, bungle, fairness, early judgement, charitable impulse, daze, mass, moonstruck, Unconscious Agenda.
Apart from that it depends on your original type. Are you an non-native outsider? Not sure whether banish still works. You're an undead? Protection vs a lot of things. You're a plant creature? Again specific spells or effects don't work anymore.
I think it's an interesting feat in this incarnation, but it seems like an entirely new feat rather than a revision of the old one. There's room for both feats, I'm not sure why they removed one and put the other in.Balance, most likely.
That would make sense if they limited its availability or decreased its power. Introducing an entirely new feat with the same name, while removing the old feat, seems like and odd way to balance things.
