Mastering the Elements: N. Jolly's guide to the Pathfinder Kineticist


Advice

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Has anyone done any playtesting with the Overwhelming Soul archetype? I've got a halfling telekineticist for PFS that I just started playing and currently in a Consortium Compact game here on the boards. I've been debating trying out the Overwhelming Soul archetype to take full advantage of the Halfling Cha bonus and the inclusion of more "rogue" style skills is a nice touch, but I just don't know if the archetype is doable or if I'm going to shoot myself in the foot with it. Anyone have any experience they can provide?


It's functional. You can play one, especially in a PFS party given the standards of PFS, and generally contribute and have a fun time, but expect to lose both nova and consistent damage, survivability and utility over the standard kineticist and really only gain the ability to have a very, very larger bluff or diplomacy check with greater skilled kineticist in return.

It's not as bad as Annihilator at least.


Awesome DMG Write-Up By Chess Pwn:

Chess Pwn wrote:
RaizielDragon wrote:

How about we use the numbers/leves you already calculated (minus the 1.5 Empower multiplier for Flurry of Devastation), and use the average AC by CR provided by Paizo here? And just compare to the AC of an equal CR creature?

So:

CR/Level 1 = 12 AC
CR/Level 2 = 14 AC
CR/Level 3 = 15 AC
CR/Level 4 = 17 AC
CR/Level 5 = 18 AC
CR/Level 6 = 19 AC
CR/Level 7 = 20 AC

CR/Level 1 = 12 AC

normal +4(5) 1d6+5(6) DPR:5.53 (6.65)
Annihilator +5(6) 1d8+4(5) DPR:5.95 (7.125)

CR/Level 2 = 14 AC
normal +5(6) 1d6+5(6) DPR:5.10 (6.18)
Annihilator +6(7) 1d8+4(5) DPR:5.525 (6.65)

CR/Level 3 = 15 AC

normal +7(8) 2d6+8(9) DPR:9.75 (11.2)
Annihilator +8(9) 1d8+4(5) DPR:5.95 (7.125)
+7(8) 1d8+6(7) DPR:6.825 (8.05)

CR/Level 4 = 17 AC

normal +8(9) 2d6+8(9) DPR:9 (10.4)
Annihilator +9(10) 1d8+4(5) DPR:5.525 (6.65)
+7(8) 1d8+8(9) DPR:6.875 (8.1)

CR/Level 5 = 18 AC

normal +8(9) 3d6+9(10) x 1.5 DPR:16.09 (18.45)
+7(8) 3d6+11(12) x 1.5 DPR:16.125 (18.56)
Annihilator +12(13) 1d8+5(6) DPR:7.125 (8.4)
+10(11) 1d8+9(10) DPR:8.775 (10.15)

CR/Level 6 = 19 AC

normal +11(12) 3d6+12(13) x 1.5 DPR:21.94 (24.675)
+9(10) 3d6+16(17) x 1.5 DPR:21.86 (24.75)
Hasted normal +12(13) 3d6+12(13) x 1.5 DPR:23.625 (26.438)
+10(11) 3d6+16(17) x 1.5 DPR:23.85 (26.81)
Annihilator +15(16)/+10(11) 1d8+6(7) DPR:15.225 (17.825)
+13(14)/+8(9) 1d8+10(11) DPR:18.125 (20.925)
Hasted Anni +16(17)/+16(17)/+11(12) 1d8+6(7) DPR:25.725 (29.9)
+14(15)/+14(15)/+9(10) 1d8+10(11) DPR:31.175 (35.65)

CR/Level 7 = 20 AC

normal +13(14) 4d6+13(14) x 1.5 DPR:28.35 (31.5)
+11(12) 4d6+17(18) x 1.5 DPR:27.9 (31.2)
Hasted normal +14(15) 4d6+13(14) x 1.5 DPR:30.375 (33.6)
+12(13) 4d6+17(18) x 1.5 DPR:30.225 (33.6)
Annihilator +16(17)/+11(12) 1d8+6(7) DPR:15.225 (17.825)
+14(15)/+14(15)/+9(10) 1d8+6(7) DPR:21 (24.725)
+14(15)/+9(10) 1d8+10(11) DPR:18.125 (20.925)
+12(13)/+12(13)/+7(8) 1d8+10(11) DPR:24.65 (28.675)
Hasted Anni +17(18)/+17(18)/+12(13) 1d8+6(7) DPR:25.725 (29.9)
+15(16)/+15(16)/+15(16)/+10(11) 1d8+6(7) DPR:30.975 (36.225)
+15(16)/+15(16)/+10(11) 1d8+10(11) DPR:31.175 (35.65)
+13(14)/+13(14)/+13(14)/+8(9) 1d8+10(11) DPR:36.975 (42.625)

I just noticed, but was a composite blast for the normal Kineticist taken into consideration for the damage comparison as well? From the numbers above, it looks like it was not. Does a composite help the regular keep up with the EA?


Composites cost burn. My damage was for burnless turns.
So a normal can empower a composite blast and probably out damage an EA, but it can only do that like twice a day and then it's full of burn.

Scarab Sages

It depends on level. A standard composite is burn free with a move action with Gather power at 11th, and an empowered one is free at 16th thanks to composite specialization.


The original estimate was only up to level 7, so Supercharge and Composite Specialization wouldn't apply in the previous calculations, though later calculations could include them. EA would gain some advantage as well as it gained more attacks.

Was Empowered used in the calculation, since it can be Gather Powered away when it is gained at 5th?


yes

CR/Level 5 = 18 AC
normal +8(9) 3d6+9(10) x 1.5 DPR:16.09 (18.45)
+7(8) 3d6+11(12) x 1.5 DPR:16.125 (18.56)


MisterDoug wrote:
How well would an Earth Kineticist perform in an E6 game? Can take Expand Elements as the first feat and are using the Elite NPC stat array.

Having trouble finding the Expand Elements feat. Where is it located?

Silver Crusade

Charon Onozuka wrote:
MisterDoug wrote:
How well would an Earth Kineticist perform in an E6 game? Can take Expand Elements as the first feat and are using the Elite NPC stat array.
Having trouble finding the Expand Elements feat. Where is it located?

Huh, I don't think that's a KOP/LK feat, at least from what I've seen.

Either way, thanks to a

Spoiler:
...mysterious stranger...

the archetypes and new talents from Horror Adventures have been added!

Spoiler:
Thank you, mysterious stranger...


One thing worth mentioning about Elemental Whispers- while it's still worse than a regular familiar for a lot of things, it's got one big advantage. The familiar returns to your head if it takes any damage- even a token point of damage directed at itself. This makes it a much better scout than any other non-improved familiar, since it has a way to come back and report in half the time or to get out of danger.

Dark Archive

Looking at the nifty 3pp stuff, I feel very depressed about my kineticist. While I play Pathfinder quite often, that's only because PFS is quite active where I live. I mean, don't get me wrong my -earthbender- geokineticist uneducated peasant man is tons of fun to play, but time and viscera are so much more interesting.


Is there a fighter weapon group for kinetic blast? Something for rays or spell effects? I ask because i could see a lot of fun with a late game Kineticist taking Martial Focus and Burrowing Shot for a fun debuff. Think of it as Emperor Palpatine using force lightening on Luke or Kylo Ren freezing a blaster shot mid-air...

Scarab Sages

Torbyne wrote:
Is there a fighter weapon group for kinetic blast? Something for rays or spell effects? I ask because i could see a lot of fun with a late game Kineticist taking Martial Focus and Burrowing Shot for a fun debuff. Think of it as Emperor Palpatine using force lightening on Luke or Kylo Ren freezing a blaster shot mid-air...

There is no weapon group for it, but you could take three levels of weapon master fighter to use a kinetic bast as your chosen weapon, allowing you to meet the weapon training requirement. The lost levels in kinectist probably aren't worth it though.


Imbicatus wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Is there a fighter weapon group for kinetic blast? Something for rays or spell effects? I ask because i could see a lot of fun with a late game Kineticist taking Martial Focus and Burrowing Shot for a fun debuff. Think of it as Emperor Palpatine using force lightening on Luke or Kylo Ren freezing a blaster shot mid-air...
There is no weapon group for it, but you could take three levels of weapon master fighter to use a kinetic bast as your chosen weapon, allowing you to meet the weapon training requirement. The lost levels in kinectist probably aren't worth it though.

Yeah, i had thought about the dip before and came to the same conclusion.

Scarab Sages

Actually, I can think of a way to make that work. Sorta anyway. If you were to take vital strike with a conductive weapon, you could still gather power and blast, and and the multiplied damage dice from vital strike would slightly make up for the lost damage dice from your blast. The delay in utility talents and infusions would hurt though. Although at that point your weapon training should go to the conductive weapon instead of the blast.


Btw Jolly.. the Archetype page hasn't been loading on my phone since Tuesday :(

All other pages appear fine though.

Silver Crusade

MarcFrey wrote:

Btw Jolly.. the Archetype page hasn't been loading on my phone since Tuesday :(

All other pages appear fine though.

That's odd, I just went to it, and it loaded fine for me. If I can find a problem, I'll do my best to fix it.


Can someone give me a quick rundown of what Kineticist class features provoke AoO? I think I've got it all right, but I want to make sure I'm letting my DM know when I'm provoking.

I know that making the ranged attack of the blast provokes one. And I'm pretty sure just the act of activating the blast does as well (spell-like ability). I believe this is why Kinetic Blade is recommended; so that you have something to do when engaged. Does the blast still provoke when infused? I've been playing it as it does, but I get the feeling that it becomes a supernatural ability once an infusion is applied and therefore doesn't provoke; but maybe I'm wrong.

What about Gather Power? I don't think it does as it's supernatural.

Any other class features or common Kineticist actions that provoke that I should know about?

Perhaps this deserves a small section since a Kineticist is a close/mid-ranged character who will likely often find themselves in threatened squares. This is based off of the early 30-ft limit, and later, the reach of large+ creatures, as well as the potential for cramped quarters of indoor combat, forcing you in close to enemies.


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Kinetic blast does twice, one for SLA and one for ranged attack. Kinetic blade/whip avoid both of those. All utility talents that are SLA do as well like telekinetic invisibility and suffocate.

Gather power does not.


Gather power doesn't provoke. Just gotta be weary of enemies readying actions to smack your kineticist when it does gather power.

Blasts modified by infusions (itself an Su ability), remain as Spell-Like Abilities (but just modified by a Supernatural ability), so an infused blast would still provoke.


yeah what Protoman said.
Kinetic blast is a SLA, modifying it with an infusion is a SU ability to alter how the SLA works.

Scarab Sages

While most infusions provoke, kinetic blade and whip do not, as they have a specific exemption.


Imbicatus wrote:
While most infusions provoke, kinetic blade and whip do not, as they have a specific exemption.

Correct, the melee blasts are used as part of an attack or full attack action and therefore don't provoke since melee attacks don't provoke.


Have you seen the Flagellent feat, N. Jolly? Because, Zon-Kuthon worship aside, it would probably a pretty good pickup for most kineticists.


Ventnor wrote:
Have you seen the Flagellent feat, N. Jolly? Because, Zon-Kuthon worship aside, it would probably a pretty good pickup for most kineticists.

It's useless for Kineticists. At best, "A kineticist who has accepted burn never benefits from abilities that allow her to ignore or alter the effects she receives from nonlethal damage." At worst, "Nonlethal damage from burn can't be reduced or redirected, and a kineticist incapable of taking nonlethal damage can't accept burn." That was one of the things caught during the Occult Adventures playtest.

Scarab Sages

Ventnor wrote:
Have you seen the Flagellent feat, N. Jolly? Because, Zon-Kuthon worship aside, it would probably a pretty good pickup for most kineticists.

No, Flagellant is not a good feat for kineticists.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I played a Telekinetisist at Gen Con this year and I think that the GM assumed because my character wasn't carrying a weapon and wasn't using Gather Power - I was within 30ft' - the enemy didn't see me as a big enough threat. I was blasting people, but how obvious is that for a telekinetic who's just picking stuff up with his mind and accelerating it at foes?


Son of the Veterinarian wrote:
I played a Telekinetisist at Gen Con this year and I think that the GM assumed because my character wasn't carrying a weapon and wasn't using Gather Power - I was within 30ft' - the enemy didn't see me as a big enough threat. I was blasting people, but how obvious is that for a telekinetic who's just picking stuff up with his mind and accelerating it at foes?

Spell-like abilities have visible effects, otherwise there wouldn't be a feat to hide the manifestations.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just as a minor note, was working on making a geokineticist and looking at your guide, and noticed your guide lists Shift Earth as being a 5th-level utility wild talent, when it is in fact 4th-level.


I've heard time and again that aether primary just isn't as good at combat and downing enemies as the other elements, but I really just want to get my force user/sith lord on with telekinesis. How could I, with only first party (paizo-made) materials, make an aetherkineticist that can crush his foes?


My aetherkineticist has no problem doling out the pain. There's only a select few points in which aether is "behind" other primary element starters in damage, and even then its only in their "nova" capabilities and not their burn-less damage blasting.


For max damage you likely want to use kinetic blade/whip, especially if there's someone who might haste you. OTOH you're not a geokineticist, you may prefer to stay at range for safety's sake.


Aether doesn't loose out on damage until you start using composites. So lv7 your nova is lower, and at lv11 when composites are your standard full attack option you're really going to notice the difference. But if you don't go high or need as much damage it can work fine.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Had a couple of questions about my geonkineticist come up in our game this evening, and was hoping you guys could help us out.

1) Can you deflect a kinetic blast with the Deflect Arrows feat?

2) How is the kinetic cover limit supposed to work? If you can create X walls using kinetic cover, what happens when you attempt to create X+1 walls? I thought the oldest wall simply collapsed and the new one appeared as normal (like many other magical effects with similar limitations), but the GM tonight seemed to think that nothing would happen if I attempted to create X+1 walls. The power would simply fail, and that I would have to go back through the dungeon and manually knock down a few walls in order to be able to use my wall-making powers again.

3) Does a kineticist summon their element out of thin air? Or do they draw it out of their surroundings? The GM seemed to think that I couldn't use my powers in areas where dirt, stone, and the like weren't readily available. Upon reading the class rules, it seems ambiguous. In some places, it mentions drawing power from the etheral plane, and in others it seems to refer to "gathering" or "moving" the existing matter.

4) Aside from Gather Power, is using one's kinetic powers generally noisy? The GM seemed to think that I could not use kinetic cover without making a lot of noise (since, according to him, rocks and the like would roll and clatter along the ground and gather up into the wall). In short, can I use my kinetic powers while using Stealth?

5) If a wall from kinetic cover can only support 5 pounds, why would enemies bother attacking it at all? Couldn't someone just lean on it, in order to knock it down?


Ravingdork wrote:

Had a couple of questions about my geonkineticist come up in our game this evening, and was hoping you guys could help us out.

1) Can you deflect a kinetic blast with the Deflect Arrows feat?

2) How is the kinetic cover limit supposed to work? If you can create X walls using kinetic cover, what happens when you attempt to create X+1 walls? I thought the oldest wall simply collapsed and the new one appeared as normal (like many other magical effects with similar limitations), but the GM tonight seemed to think that nothing would happen if I attempted to create X+1 walls. The power would simply fail, and that I would have to go back through the dungeon and manually knock down a few walls in order to be able to use my wall-making powers again.

3) Does a kineticist summon their element out of thin air? Or do they draw it out of their surroundings? The GM seemed to think that I couldn't use my powers in areas where dirt, stone, and the like weren't readily available. Upon reading the class rules, it seems ambiguous. In some places, it mentions drawing power from the etheral plane, and in others it seems to refer to "gathering" or "moving" the existing matter.

4) Aside from Gather Power, is using one's kinetic powers generally noisy? The GM seemed to think that I could not use kinetic cover without making a lot of noise (since, according to him, rocks and the like would roll and clatter along the ground and gather up into the wall). In short, can I use my kinetic powers while using Stealth?

5) If a wall from kinetic cover can only support 5 pounds, why would enemies bother attacking it at all? Couldn't someone just lean on it, in order to knock it down?

1) Depends on whether or not a spell like ability counts as a spell again. Since Paizo can't make up their mind on whether they do or not (They do in x situation, don't in y situation, sometimes do in z situation, ask the GM in f situation...), it's up to the GM. I would go with no, simply because kinetic blast is always a spell-like ability, and Deflect Arrows doesn't work with spell effects.

2) My impression, that just like practically every other ability in the game with similar mechanics, the oldest one winks out when you cast the new one. But if your GM says no...

3) I don't have the quote on hand, and don't feel like digging through Mark's posts, but he's stated before the kineticist, essentially, summons his element when he blasts someone, and it fades away after. Specific wild talents, like Shift Earth, specify moving already existing earth, so it heavily depends on what you're doing.

4) Gather Power is the only ability of the base class explicitly called out as noisy. Others might cause noise (such explosions and the like), but the basic kinetic blast itself is not noisy.

5) Kinetic Cover requires an action to break through. 5 pound weight limit or not, if you ready an action to kinetic cover a charge, it interrupts the charge because they have to stop and break it to pass. Physical cover pre-placed would let enemies move around or leap over it, but water, ice and aether are all transparent, so you could set up semi-invisible walls that enemies might not notice for you to hide behind.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
avr wrote:
For max damage you likely want to use kinetic blade/whip, especially if there's someone who might haste you.

per all the FAQs on non-manufactured weapons, kinetic blade likely can't benefit from haste.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's a good thing haste effects the person, and not the kinetic blade then. ;P

EDIT: Seriously though, I just read through the FAQ, and I can't seem to figure out how you came to that conclusion, Squiggit.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
It's a good thing haste effects the person, and not the kinetic blade then. ;P

True, you still get the bonus movement speed, ac and +1 to attack rolls, but since it's neither natural nor manufactured no extra attack.


Archmage Joda wrote:
I've heard time and again that aether primary just isn't as good at combat and downing enemies as the other elements, but I really just want to get my force user/sith lord on with telekinesis. How could I, with only first party (paizo-made) materials, make an aetherkineticist that can crush his foes?

It's been a while since I put together an aether kineticist for a game (for a 11th level adventure), but I found they were more useful as a sort of battlefield control and utility (and replacing the rogue role...not forgetting UMD as well). If you just want to stand around and blast in combat you are probably missing quite a bit of aether's potential.

With Telekinetic Haul you can move heavy bits of 'dungeon dressing' and other terrain to block off doorways or to funnel enemies. And while you don't do any more damage by throwing an object with TK Haul whether it is a copper piece or a 2 ton statue, nothing says you cant lift up a very large object (like a wagon or a house) and drop it from a height onto an enemy(ies). The Falling Object rules aren't quite as insane as they were in 3rd ed but still there are a few 'dirty aetherkineticist tricks' you could use to make it a viable and reliable tactic in a number of situations.

Though the play style depends on a bit of table awareness and creativity.

As another example of this, Telekinetic Finesse allows a aether kineticist to use slight of hand at range (not to mention disarm traps). If you have invisibility or Touchsight or a Goz Mask with some sort of smokescreen (from Darkness, Obscuring Mist to smoke stick to an Eversmoking bottle) you can pickpocket a foe in the middle of combat (stealing wands, potions, opening alchemical items on their person, etc). You can also try to pull the grenade in the pants thing ala Fallout with fused bombs (slipped into a spell component pouch or quiver).

If you want to be a one trick pony who crushes foes (at range) play an archer (or a more blasty boring kineticist).


Squiggit wrote:
avr wrote:
For max damage you likely want to use kinetic blade/whip, especially if there's someone who might haste you.
per all the FAQs on non-manufactured weapons, kinetic blade likely can't benefit from haste.

...what.


Azten wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
avr wrote:
For max damage you likely want to use kinetic blade/whip, especially if there's someone who might haste you.
per all the FAQs on non-manufactured weapons, kinetic blade likely can't benefit from haste.
...what.

Just wait for the next errata that changes Flurry of Blows to no longer gain any benefit from haste...


Ravingdork wrote:

Had a couple of questions about my geonkineticist come up in our game this evening, and was hoping you guys could help us out.

1) Can you deflect a kinetic blast with the Deflect Arrows feat?

2) How is the kinetic cover limit supposed to work? If you can create X walls using kinetic cover, what happens when you attempt to create X+1 walls? I thought the oldest wall simply collapsed and the new one appeared as normal (like many other magical effects with similar limitations), but the GM tonight seemed to think that nothing would happen if I attempted to create X+1 walls. The power would simply fail, and that I would have to go back through the dungeon and manually knock down a few walls in order to be able to use my wall-making powers again.

3) Does a kineticist summon their element out of thin air? Or do they draw it out of their surroundings? The GM seemed to think that I couldn't use my powers in areas where dirt, stone, and the like weren't readily available. Upon reading the class rules, it seems ambiguous. In some places, it mentions drawing power from the etheral plane, and in others it seems to refer to "gathering" or "moving" the existing matter.

4) Aside from Gather Power, is using one's kinetic powers generally noisy? The GM seemed to think that I could not use kinetic cover without making a lot of noise (since, according to him, rocks and the like would roll and clatter along the ground and gather up into the wall). In short, can I use my kinetic powers while using Stealth?

5) If a wall from kinetic cover can only support 5 pounds, why would enemies bother attacking it at all? Couldn't someone just lean on it, in order to knock it down?

1) No, kinetic blast counts "as a weapon" for things like feats (weapon focus) but is otherwise not a weapon so the "ranged weapon caveat for deflect arrows does not apply here.

2) It is ambiguous but if we were to go off other abilities that have limited number of usages at once like wall infusion then we see that the old one dissipates and is replaced by the new one.

3) They pull it from the appropriate elemental plane.

4) Gather Power is the only ability that is cited to be overtly noisy. The rest should follow the rules of Su and Sp abilities where appropriate.

5) I think the 5lb rule is to prevent some unforseen breaking of the game with creating wall "ladders" or something like that. Sure they can 'lean on it' but that should cost them their action to do so.

Squiggit wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
It's a good thing haste effects the person, and not the kinetic blade then. ;P
True, you still get the bonus movement speed, ac and +1 to attack rolls, but since it's neither natural nor manufactured no extra attack.

That seems rather peculiar and unintuitive if true. Does a mind blade not benefit from the extra attack from haste? What about my telekineticist who is wearing a cestus? I'm attacking with a cestus that is infused with telekinetic energy. But then we're exact same thing two different ways because of semantics.

What even is the game definition of "manufactured" anyways? Can you cite the book definition? If we're going to be this nitpicky about verbiage.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It's not nitpicky, there have been multiple FAQs recently that specify that SLA and SU weaponlike attacks are in their own category and don't count as either manufactured or natural weapons and Haste specifies manufactured or natural.

The more recent one goes even farther to suggest that most things that apply to weapons don't apply to them, which is even worse.

Note that to contrast, the Elemental Annihilator's Flurry of Devastation has a specific language to make it work with both rapid shot and haste.

Quote:
Does a mind blade not benefit from the extra attack from haste?

I'd be inclined toward yes, because the mindblade lets you manifest a weapon of your choice, rather than a nonspecific weaponlike effect like kinetic blast. So you manifest a mindblade shortsword and since it's a shortsword it (probably) works.

Quote:
What about my telekineticist who is wearing a cestus?

More wobbly here though. You're technically using a manufactured weapon, but the weapon is utterly irrelevant to what you're doing, too.

Quote:
What even is the game definition of "manufactured" anyways?

There isn't one!


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Azten wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
avr wrote:
For max damage you likely want to use kinetic blade/whip, especially if there's someone who might haste you.
per all the FAQs on non-manufactured weapons, kinetic blade likely can't benefit from haste.
...what.

This FAQ is the real problem.

Ranged Weapon Attack FAQ wrote:

Weapon Attacks and Special Abilities: Many places in the rules use the term “ranged weapon attacks” and similar terms, but how does this apply to spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and extraordinary abilities (heretoafter called special abilities) that require ranged attacks but might not necessarily seem like weapons?

In general, special abilities that require attack rolls benefit and suffer from all modifiers affecting attack rolls even if those modifiers mention weapon attack rolls (such as the penalty for firing into melee, the bonus on attack rolls from Point-Blank Shot and inspire courage, and the like), unless the spell specifically calls out that it doesn’t apply them (for instance spiritual weapon calls out that it isn’t affected by feats and combat actions, but it would still have to deal with cover, and firing into melee if ranged).

When it comes to modifiers that affect weapon damage rolls, or simply “damage rolls” (such as the bonus on damage rolls from Point-Blank Shot, inspire courage, and smite evil), special abilities that deal damage on a successful attack roll, apply them on hit point damage only, and only once per casting or use, rather than once per attack. For instance, if a spell or special ability launched a dozen different ranged attacks simultaneously, only one (of the user’s choice) would receive bonus damage. This doesn’t apply on area effects with the rare potential for extraneous attack rolls, like fireball. However, there is a category of abilities that deserve a special note: Abilities like Arcane Strike that specifically enhance a character’s weapon or weapons themselves never apply to special abilities (with the exception of special abilities like the warlock’s mystic bolts that specifically call out that Arcane Strike applies).

In the same vein as abilities like Arcane Strike that affect a character’s weapons, abilities that say “with a weapon,” “with a melee weapon,” and “with a ranged weapon” almost never work with special abilities because such wording is almost always used as shorthand for “manufactured weapon,” “manufactured melee weapon,” and “manufactured ranged weapon.” The exception is abilities that deal damage when a creature touches or hits you in melee (for instance, the occultis’s energy ward focus power), which should also deal damage when a creature makes a melee touch attack against you but rarely call them out directly.

Certain special abilities (for instance rays, kinetic blasts, and mystic bolts) can specifically be selected with feats like Weapon Focus and Improved Critical. They still aren’t considered a type of weapon for other rules; they are not part of any weapon group and don’t qualify for the effects of fighter weapon training, warpriest sacred weapon, magus arcane pool, paladin divine bond, or any other such ability.

Abilities that modify the action usage of ranged weapon attacks or require their own special action almost never work with special abilities, since special abilities require their own actions. For instance, Pinpoint Targeting wouldn’t work with scorching ray or the soundstriker’s weird words because each of them requires its own action to activate and thus can’t be part of the feat’s specific standard action. Rare exceptions include mystic bolts and kinetic blade, which can specifically be used as part of other actions.

This FAQ plays all merry hell with the Kineticist. Here's why:

  • Nearly every instance of "melee weapon" or "ranged weapon" is shorthand for "manufactured weapon".
  • Special abilities that have attack rolls and deal damage only deal bonus damage once per casting or use, and not once per attack roll.
  • Kinetic Blast is specifically capable of selecting weapon feats, but is also specifically not considered a weapon for the other rules.

Haste wrote:

The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.

When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)

A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.

All of the hasted creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject's normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for increased speed. Multiple haste effects don't stack. Haste dispels and counters slow.

Using haste as an example, it specifies that it grants an extra attack with a natural or manufactured weapon. This means that, since kinetic blade/whip is neither a natural weapon, nor a manufactured weapon, that it does not benefit from haste per RAW.

Likewise, things like Bardic Performance calls out adding bonus damage on weapon damage rolls, and per the FAQ, we now know that this is likely shorthand for "manufactured weapon damage rolls". However, assuming that it does, in fact, apply to kinetic blasts, the "once per casting or use" rule comes into play. So if you make a full attack with a kinetic blade, you only gain the bonus damage on one single attack, and not the entire attack sequence. Note: the FAQ specifically calls out inspire courage as an ability that only applies once per casting.

So, yeah, this FAQ plays all merry hell with the assumed rules. Especially since the verbiage chosen screws over anything that isn't a manufactured weapon. If you recall, the FAQ says, "spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and extraordinary abilities (heretoafter called special abilities)." Why is this important? Because many monster abilities are considered Su or Ex abilities.

Manticore wrote:
Spikes (Ex): With a snap of its tail, a manticore can loose a volley of four spikes as a standard action (make an attack roll for each spike). This attack has a range of 180 feet with no range increment. All targets must be within 30 feet of each other. The creature can launch only 24 spikes in any 24-hour period.

Let's say that you've used Leadership, because you're a badass Bard to acquire a manticore as a cohort mount. It takes Point Blank Shot as it levels up, and you regularly buff it good hope and inspire courage. Let's be generous and say those abilities don't refer to manufactured weapon only and work for the manticore. Per the "once per casting or use" rule (because the FAQ uses "Special abilities" as shorthand for spells, spell-like, supernatural and extraordinary abilities), that means the manticore only receives the bonus on damage from Point Blank Shot, good hope and inspire courage on a single hit with his Spikes (Ex) ability.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I strongly suspect they were referring to things like Sneak Attack when they referenced bonus damage, not really things like Point Blank Shot.


Ravingdork wrote:
I strongly suspect they were referring to things like Sneak Attack when they referenced bonus damage, not really things like Point Blank Shot.

Except it specifically calls out kinetic blast in cases like Point-Blank Shot. So it definitely counts Point-Blank Shot.

God damn that is a horrendous FAQ.


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I strongly suspect they were referring to things like Sneak Attack when they referenced bonus damage, not really things like Point Blank Shot.

Except it specifically calls out kinetic blast in cases like Point-Blank Shot. So it definitely counts Point-Blank Shot.

G!# d@$n that is a horrendous FAQ.

That FAQ makes the kineticist jump into the circular file for me. The whole point of the class in many ways is that they're a living weapon. Now, no thanks, there's no point. I'd rather be a spell caster or just riddle the bad guys full of arrows.

How in the heck is a GM to even run one of these guys as a foe when they inevitably show up in an AP? The stat block is highly unlikely to contain all of these irksome particulars so that the GM can run it with minimal fuss.


Ugh, yeah, that really hurts kinetic blade/whip builds....


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

That wretched FAQ sprang up from The Paladin + Magic Missile Wands tub olds from the last few months. It's probably worse than the one that removed SLAs as viable abilities for feats and PRC requirements.

EDIT: Wait, does that mean Kineticists only get Elemental Overflow and Constitution and the like to damage once?!


FAQ? What FAQ? Tels has not write any FAQ some posts above (not on my player group, at least).

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