*sigh*
If control of the Fly spell isn't mental, what is it?
How does the Demilich meet the requirements to control it?
It's a floating skull.
PRD -"Fly
(Dex; Armor Check Penalty)"Demilich - dex - 17
EDIT: Also there are a few ways to paralyses undead, and a demilich can use a fly spell just fine.
To me, the RAI is clear - the answer is "no."
This is not RAI, this is an affront to actual logic. Magical flight is telekinesis exerted by the mind. The fact that my body is paralyzed but I'm allowed to think by actual reasoning has one consequence.
If control of the Fly spell isn't mental, what is it?
It's the same kind of control as of Bull's Strength and Haste.
To me, the RAI is clear - the answer is "no."This is not RAI, this is an affront to actual logic. Magical flight is telekinesis exerted by the mind. The fact that my body is paralyzed but I'm allowed to think by actual reasoning has one consequence.
I have yet to see any "actual logic" that points to your conclusion. I have seen much that points to the other side.
To me, the RAI is clear - the answer is "no."This is not RAI, this is an affront to actual logic. Magical flight is telekinesis exerted by the mind. The fact that my body is paralyzed but I'm allowed to think by actual reasoning has one consequence.
That's a bold claim. Care to back it up with rules?
It's the same kind of control as of Bull's Strength and Haste.
If control of the Fly spell isn't mental, what is it?
In no way related on any level.
Bonuses to stats that don't have ANY level of being controlled.
Your example is rejected, and assumed to be a typing error.
To me, the RAI is clear - the answer is "no."Magical flight is telekinesis exerted by the mind.
Why is it hampered by medium or heavy armor? Why would dex and AC check penalty apply if it is purely mental?
It's the same kind of control as of Bull's Strength and Haste.
If control of the Fly spell isn't mental, what is it?
In no way related on any level.
Bonuses to stats that don't have ANY level of being controlled.
Your example is rejected, and assumed to be a typing error.
They have the same types of targets, durations and effects. They are precisely what should be compared with. But you can add Beast Shape and Protection from Evil into the mix if you want something that isn't only numerical bonuses. The point IS that they don't have any level of being controlled. Spells that you can control, such as Flaming Sphere or Levitate, say so. Fly does not.
That's a bold claim. Care to back it up with rules?
Telekinesis is a transmutation spell just like flight. From the moment that you cannot imagine the Fly spell in another way than a force vector slapped by magic on the wizard, that he can control it in intensity and direction, without adding any unneeded detail to what is already written on the spell, the result is straightforward if we should apply our intelligence to it (and don't come up with "the common sense has no bearing with the rules" because we're speaking RAI)
And speaking about telekinesis and arbitrary force vectors:
Why is it hampered by medium or heavy armor? Why would dex and AC check penalty apply if it is purely mental?To me, the RAI is clear - the answer is "no."Magical flight is telekinesis exerted by the mind.
The encumberance does apply because the force applied by the flight spell is not infinite and thus cannot sustain all the mass you want (the Doylist reason is balance in order to avoid exploit like using flight to carry the entire party and more, the Watsonian explanation is that single spell are finite anyway, especially lower levels). Also, the fact that I'm propelled in an arbitrary direction does not exempt the user from aerodynamics and other finesseries of flight like balancing in order to precisely control the movement in complicated maneuvers.
I already brought a couple of examples of flight that is still functional after paralysis but that still employs Fly checks and dexterity as a supplement:
Thor can move Mjolnir just with his mind. He doesn't fly per se, he just grabs Mjolnir and mentally commands it to fly.
So, assuming that the paralysis doesn't loosen the grip he has on the hammer, he can still "fly" if paralyzed as the act is enabled by his mental action and he doesn't actually need to move his limbs outside of balancing and aerodynamics and thus he would be more clumsy (no Fly skill checks or heavy penalty), but he can still fly.
The same way, paralyzing Tony Stark doesn't deactivate his rocket boots, but being unable to move his arms means he can't use the repulsors to balance and thus he would fly like a ragdoll. But still flies. (and in the comics as of now he empowered his arc reactor in order to control technological objects with his mind, so no excuses like "he need to flip his toes to use the rocket boots")
Wizard's flight is one of these clearly as the wizard is not required to propel himself with farts or flap his arms like a bird or any idiotic gesture you can make up to fool me into thinking that the wizard has to move his body parts in order to shift in the air with the Fly spell.
Wizard's flight is one of these clearly as the wizard is not required to propel himself with farts or flap his arms like a bird or any idiotic gesture you can make up to fool me into thinking that the wizard has to move his body parts in order to shift in the air with the Fly spell.
But if the Wizard gets a Dex bonus (from a spell), or is trained in Acrobatics, he's better at hovering in place ...
Yup, clearly and unambiguously WIZARD FLIGHT is totally unaffected by the wizard's physical capabilities, and is only controlled by his mind.
Let me ask you. Why are Bards able to use charisma in place of dexterity to fly?
A trait that allows wisdom in place of dexterity to fly.
Allow me, what this shows, is that one thing can take the place of another. Magical flight takes the place of physical flight.
Allow me, what this shows, is that one thing can take the place of another. Magical flight takes the place of physical flight.Let me ask you. Why are Bards able to use charisma in place of dexterity to fly?
A trait that allows wisdom in place of dexterity to fly.
If anything, it's an exception to the rule that proves the rule (normally flight requires dex, bard can use cha instead).
I already brought a couple of examples of flight that is still functional after paralysis but that still employs Fly checks and dexterity as a supplement:
Thor can move Mjolnir just with his mind. He doesn't fly per se, he just grabs Mjolnir and mentally commands it to fly.
So, assuming that the paralysis doesn't loosen the grip he has on the hammer, he can still "fly" if paralyzed as the act is enabled by his mental action and he doesn't actually need to move his limbs outside of balancing and aerodynamics and thus he would be more clumsy (no Fly...
Thor and Iron Man are comic book characters, not Pathfinder characters. There is no basis for thinking that anything that applies to them should ever apply to PFRPG.
Yup, clearly and unambiguously WIZARD FLIGHT is totally unaffected by the wizard's physical capabilities, and is only controlled by his mind.
I worded it in the most unambiguous way yet you can fumble conveniently ignoring two detailed example above that address you sarcastic counterpoint.
Physical effort is SUPPLEMENTARY for maneuverability but NOT REQUIRED in order to just SHIFT as a spacial movement, that is getting from point A to anywhere else.
Thor and Iron Man are comic book characters, not Pathfinder characters. There is no basis for thinking that anything that applies to them should ever apply to PFRPG.
okay, I will make it even more easy for myself: how do you imagine flies a Wizard that uses the Fly spell?
Describe it to me with words, pictures or a video from youtube that is close to what you mean.
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The encumberance does apply because the force applied by the flight spell is not infinite and thus cannot sustain all the mass you want (the Doylist reason is balance in order to avoid exploit like using flight to carry the entire party and more, the Watsonian explanation is that single spell are finite anyway, especially lower levels). Also, the fact that I'm propelled in an arbitrary direction does not exempt the user from aerodynamics and other finesseries of flight like balancing in order to precisely control the movement in complicated maneuvers.
Not talking about encumbrance at all. Let's say a 20th level barbarian with a 40 str in celestial plate, and nothing else... Weight is a total non-issue. Why am I slower and have problems doing complex manuvers because of my armor?
So it is purely mental until they need dex for the "finesseries of flight", then Dex gets involved?
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Thor and Iron Man are comic book characters, not Pathfinder characters. There is no basis for thinking that anything that applies to them should ever apply to PFRPG.okay, I will make it even more easy for myself: how do you imagine flies a Wizard that uses the Fly spell?
Describe it to me with words, pictures or a video from youtube that is close to what you mean.
It doesn't matter what the fluffy description of the act is. The rules don't allow or imply what you are suggesting.
it is funny how no one has addressed my interpretation of how fly works. In my theory, the propulsion of your movement must be a mental act, otherwise what movements must your body make that will still allow you to cast spells and fly without the need for concentration checks or fly checks? We all know just normal flying does not require any skill checks, but it does require checks for certain maneuvers. This means that skill checks affected by dexterity, among other things requires a certain amount of physical ability to maneuver. Having an encumbrance prevents one from flying, then we must assume that weight does have an effect on one's ability to fly, therefore you can't fly due to overencumbrance. Because encumbrance is specifically called out in the spell preventing flight and having a dexterity of 0 is not called out in the spell, then I must conclude that although dexterity does affect flight, it is not absolute requirement for flight.
I might as well respond to this one too.
Methods of physical flight:
Wings
Skin folds
Big ears
Combustion
Propellor
Which of these methods does the fly spell use to create lift? You can't say magic, because magic isn't physical.
They have the same types of targets, durations and effects. They are precisely what should be compared with. But you can add Beast Shape and Protection from Evil into the mix if you want something that isn't only numerical bonuses. The point IS that they don't have any level of being controlled. Spells that you can control, such as Flaming Sphere or Levitate, say so. Fly does not.It's the same kind of control as of Bull's Strength and Haste.
If control of the Fly spell isn't mental, what is it?
In no way related on any level.
Bonuses to stats that don't have ANY level of being controlled.
Your example is rejected, and assumed to be a typing error.
Your right! My god! I've been doing it wrong this whole time!
You CAN'T control Fly! It's raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaandom!
FWIW I think it is not at all clear that the 'effective strength of 0' from being paralyzed changes your encumbrance.
I think personally I would rule that it falls more in the temporary penalty/damage category for recalculating ability scores rather than the permanent drain category, and as such carrying capacity would not be one of the things you recalculate. Either way I suspect that it would require it's own FAQ as the rules are not clear on that.
Ability Score DamageStrength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense. A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious. Some creatures do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks.
[...]
Ability Score Penalties
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
Ability Drain
Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.
The line about 'cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1' is interesting here, but we already know that an effective score of 0 doesn't make you unconscious, so I don't think it's definitive evidence of anything.
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Yup, clearly and unambiguously WIZARD FLIGHT is totally unaffected by the wizard's physical capabilities, and is only controlled by his mind.I worded it in the most unambiguous way yet you can fumble conveniently ignoring two detailed example above that address you sarcastic counterpoint.
Physical effort is SUPPLEMENTARY for maneuverability but NOT REQUIRED in order to just SHIFT as a spacial movement, that is getting from point A to anywhere else.
That's your interpretation of the spell. It's not in any sense unambiguous that this is how the spell works.
And if you've got magic supplying you with some impetus, and your movement is controlled by your mind, it makes no sense that Dexterity would be important for something like hovering in place - you'd either will the magic to be providing a force equal and opposite to gravity, or you'd be pushed off in some other direction.
Your right! My god! I've been doing it wrong this whole time!
You CAN'T control Fly! It's raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaandom!
That's correct, the Wizard who cast Fly can't control the spell anymore. Think of the case where the Wizard casts Fly on the party's Barbarian. What control does the Wizard have? None. The Barbarian can fly though.
It doesn't matter what the fluffy description of the act is. The rules don't allow or imply what you are suggesting.Thor and Iron Man are comic book characters, not Pathfinder characters. There is no basis for thinking that anything that applies to them should ever apply to PFRPG.okay, I will make it even more easy for myself: how do you imagine flies a Wizard that uses the Fly spell?
Describe it to me with words, pictures or a video from youtube that is close to what you mean.
They really do.
As soon as the publish an updated version involving growing wings and flapping them, I'll use it.
Until then "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking".
So to use it, you must meet that condition. That level of concentration seems pretty trivial to me.
God I'm glad I don't play PFS, what a waste of time over a naked, paralyzed guy.
This situation would happen exactly never, why are we all so hung up on our various ideas?
It doesn't matter what the fluffy description of the act is. The rules don't allow or imply what you are suggesting.Thor and Iron Man are comic book characters, not Pathfinder characters. There is no basis for thinking that anything that applies to them should ever apply to PFRPG.okay, I will make it even more easy for myself: how do you imagine flies a Wizard that uses the Fly spell?
Describe it to me with words, pictures or a video from youtube that is close to what you mean.
They really do.
As soon as the publish an updated version involving growing wings and flapping them, I'll use it.
Until then "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking".
So to use it, you must meet that condition. That level of concentration seems pretty trivial to me.
God I'm glad I don't play PFS, what a waste of time over a naked, paralyzed guy.
This situation would happen exactly never, why are we all so hung up on our various ideas?
Because there are those on both sides that will not concede that the opposing side has valid arguments to consider and leave it to paizo to make the final call.
Thor and Iron Man are comic book characters, not Pathfinder characters. There is no basis for thinking that anything that applies to them should ever apply to PFRPG.okay, I will make it even more easy for myself: how do you imagine flies a Wizard that uses the Fly spell?
Describe it to me with words, pictures or a video from youtube that is close to what you mean.
keeping limbs close to the body so they don't create drag and slow you down, bending with the air to stay in the path in the air you cut with your head, keeping your weight ontop of your center of gravity when ceasing movement to cast or attack without wobbling.
You know, the opposite of hanging limply and spiraling out of control as the air pushes you around. Telekinetic flight should be a thing, a higher level spell that didn't take move actions, had caster level based encumbrance and used caster stat as your flight stat, that's not the fly spell we have here though.
Why do people point to the use of the Dex-based skill flight as 'proof' that the fly spell is not mentally based?
Dexterity is at least as much mental as it is physical, which is why despite what people think, they can't play video games for sh#t when they are drunk.
If somehow we had the ability to control a robot or other remote device solely with our minds, I'll bet it would depend a heck of a lot more on our natural 'coordination' (DEX) rather than our intelligence or wisdom.
Unless you can point to some actual physical activity, such as moving your legs for walking, moving your hands/arms for swimming, or flapping your wings for 'natural' flight, there is simply no basis at all to declare that the fly spell is based any physical movement or condition.
Cast fly on a quadriplegic, guess what: he can fly.
In the real world maybe, but then the game doesn't quantify things the same way as they might be in the real world. It is much more stringent and less inclusive. And it needs to be for numerous reasons.
Statistics are grouped into physical and mental. Wisdom is called out as the "awareness" statistic, which would be what you are seemingly getting at. Abilities that are purely mental will be called out as such explicitly. Fly has no such wording, unless we've all been missing something. Getting there requires a little bit of creative thinking regardless.
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Why do people point to the use of the Dex-based skill flight as 'proof' that the fly spell is not mentally based?
The requirement is "purely mental" not mostly mental.
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Until then "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking".
No.
"Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. "
Fly is a Dex based skill, regardless of magical or natural source.
Dex based activities require physical input to participate in.
Why do people point to the use of the Dex-based skill flight as 'proof' that the fly spell is not mentally based?
Dexterity is at least as much mental as it is physical, which is why despite what people think, they can't play video games for sh#t when they are drunk.
If somehow we had the ability to control a robot or other remote device solely with our minds, I'll bet it would depend a heck of a lot more on our natural 'coordination' (DEX) rather than our intelligence or wisdom.
Unless you can point to some actual physical activity, such as moving your legs for walking, moving your hands/arms for swimming, or flapping your wings for 'natural' flight, there is simply no basis at all to declare that the fly spell is based any physical movement or condition.
Cast fly on a quadriplegic, guess what: he can fly.
This reminds me of some worshippers of Zon Kuthon. They amputate both arms and legs, then move around via the fly spell. How does that work?
I believe it is called the joymaking.
Why do people point to the use of the Dex-based skill flight as 'proof' that the fly spell is not mentally based?
Because in order to use an advanced flight maneuver, even when magically flying, you must still make a dexterity-based Fly check. Flying at normal speed in a straight line doesn't change that. If it is physical when you perform an advanced maneuver, it is physical when you fly in a straight line at your fly speed.
This reminds me of some worshippers of Zon Kuthon. They amputate both arms and legs, then move around via the fly spell. How does that work?
They still have a dex score and must make dex-based fly checks to perform any sort of complex flight maneuver. Please stop conflating lore and fluff with game rules. They are not the same and often do not reconcile. That is why we must suspend our disbelief when we play these types of games.
Why do people point to the use of the Dex-based skill flight as 'proof' that the fly spell is not mentally based?Because in order to use an advanced flight maneuver, even when magically flying, you must still make a dexterity-based Fly check. Flying at normal speed in a straight line doesn't change that. If it is physical when you perform an advanced maneuver, it is physical when you fly in a straight line at your fly speed.
They still have a dex score and must make dex-based fly checks to perform any sort of complex flight maneuver. Please stop conflating lore and fluff with game rules. They are not the same and often do not reconcile. That is why we must suspend our disbelief when we play these types of games.
This reminds me of some worshippers of Zon Kuthon. They amputate both arms and legs, then move around via the fly spell. How does that work?
Sure they have a dex score, how are they using it to fly.
Sure they have a dex score, how are they using it to fly.Why do people point to the use of the Dex-based skill flight as 'proof' that the fly spell is not mentally based?Because in order to use an advanced flight maneuver, even when magically flying, you must still make a dexterity-based Fly check. Flying at normal speed in a straight line doesn't change that. If it is physical when you perform an advanced maneuver, it is physical when you fly in a straight line at your fly speed.
They still have a dex score and must make dex-based fly checks to perform any sort of complex flight maneuver. Please stop conflating lore and fluff with game rules. They are not the same and often do not reconcile. That is why we must suspend our disbelief when we play these types of games.
This reminds me of some worshippers of Zon Kuthon. They amputate both arms and legs, then move around via the fly spell. How does that work?
The same way any other character uses their dex score to fly. If they are flying at speed in a straight line or only making 45 degree turns, they move. If they try anything more advanced, they roll a d20, add their Fly modifier (dex mod + skill ranks + class skill bonus), and then make their maneuver (or fail) depending on the result. It's like you've never played this game we're discussing before.
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How do demiliches use dex to control flight? Is this a how does magic work narrative sort of question?
The same way you use dex to target with a ray spell. It bridges the gap between the mental and the physical helping you navigate some force through time and space. Sure, no hands so "hand eye coordination" is a misnomer, but the concept still stands.
Brain Twister: If flying via the fly spell is physical action (which I don't personally believe to be the case), then does casting it as a psychic spell make it into a mental action?
I've played the game, and the game breaks down just like any other system when it loses self-consistency.
For example, if my arms and legs are bound together, can I fly? Why or why not? How does this differ from being paralyzed?
Sure, a fly skill check might involve some physical activity, angling your body or whatever to produce less drag. However, not being able to maneuver your body optimally just means that you can't fly as well, not that you can't fly at all.
If your arms and legs are bound, you gain the pinned condition (as per 'Tie Up' in the CRB), and all the penalties that apply with that condition.
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.
So if your arms and legs are bound together, you can't fly, the same as if you were paralyzed. Seems pretty consistent to me.
Brain Twister: If flying via the fly spell is physical action (which I don't personally believe to be the case), then does casting it as a psychic spell make it into a mental action?
Irrelevant, because there are no psychic spells in Pathfinder.
The same way any other character uses their dex score to fly. If they are flying at speed in a straight line or only making 45 degree turns, they move. If they try anything more advanced, they roll a d20, add their Fly modifier (dex mod + skill ranks + class skill bonus), and then make their maneuver (or fail) depending on the result. It's like you've never played this game we're discussing before.Sure they have a dex score, how are they using it to fly.Why do people point to the use of the Dex-based skill flight as 'proof' that the fly spell is not mentally based?Because in order to use an advanced flight maneuver, even when magically flying, you must still make a dexterity-based Fly check. Flying at normal speed in a straight line doesn't change that. If it is physical when you perform an advanced maneuver, it is physical when you fly in a straight line at your fly speed.
They still have a dex score and must make dex-based fly checks to perform any sort of complex flight maneuver. Please stop conflating lore and fluff with game rules. They are not the same and often do not reconcile. That is why we must suspend our disbelief when we play these types of games.
This reminds me of some worshippers of Zon Kuthon. They amputate both arms and legs, then move around via the fly spell. How does that work?
Fly does not = dex mod+ rank + class mod
Fly does = ability mod + rank + class mod + additional modifiersYou seem to forget that. There is a size modifier, there is a maneuverability modifier, there is a trait modifier, feat modifier, and of course a magical modifier.
In fact you can completely take dexterity out of the equation by using wisdom in its place. Wow!
Brain Twister: If flying via the fly spell is physical action (which I don't personally believe to be the case), then does casting it as a psychic spell make it into a mental action?Irrelevant, because there are no psychic spells in Pathfinder.
You haven't read the new occultist book yet have you.
I've played the game, and the game breaks down just like any other system when it loses self-consistency.
For example, if my arms and legs are bound together, can I fly? Why or why not? How does this differ from being paralyzed?
Sure, a fly skill check might involve some physical activity, angling your body or whatever to produce less drag. However, not being able to maneuver your body optimally just means that you can't fly as well, not that you can't fly at all.
If your arms and legs are bound, you gain the pinned condition (as per 'Tie Up' in the CRB), and all the penalties that apply with that condition.
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.So if your arms and legs are bound together, you can't fly, the same as if you were paralyzed. Seems pretty consistent to me.
Your being inconsistent, no arms and no legs, they can fly because they have a dex score. A tied up creature cant fly because although he still has a dex score but is denied his bonus.
Inconsistent in deed.
I've played the game, and the game breaks down just like any other system when it loses self-consistency.
For example, if my arms and legs are bound together, can I fly? Why or why not? How does this differ from being paralyzed?
Sure, a fly skill check might involve some physical activity, angling your body or whatever to produce less drag. However, not being able to maneuver your body optimally just means that you can't fly as well, not that you can't fly at all.
If your arms and legs are bound, you gain the pinned condition (as per 'Tie Up' in the CRB), and all the penalties that apply with that condition.
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.So if your arms and legs are bound together, you can't fly, the same as if you were paralyzed. Seems pretty consistent to me.So, if my arms and legs were chopped off, I could fly away, but if they are 'pinned' together then I can't.
And you see no problem with this interpretation?
RAW, no. Flying is a dexterous act. If you have arms and legs, then you would be accustomed to use them to assist in dexterous actions. Pinning them to your side really changes how you can use your body. You gain the pinned condition when you are tied up.
The followers of Zon-Kuthon are considered helpless because they have no limbs and only vital organs. They are not bound or prevented from moving, because they do not have the pinned condition, but are helpless and are treated as having Dexterity = 0 and thus can move (because they are not pinned or paralyzed) and take dex-based actions but at a -5.
The same way any other character uses their dex score to fly. If they are flying at speed in a straight line or only making 45 degree turns, they move. If they try anything more advanced, they roll a d20, add their Fly modifier (dex mod + skill ranks + class skill bonus), and then make their maneuver (or fail) depending on the result. It's like you've never played this game we're discussing before.Sure they have a dex score, how are they using it to fly.Why do people point to the use of the Dex-based skill flight as 'proof' that the fly spell is not mentally based?Because in order to use an advanced flight maneuver, even when magically flying, you must still make a dexterity-based Fly check. Flying at normal speed in a straight line doesn't change that. If it is physical when you perform an advanced maneuver, it is physical when you fly in a straight line at your fly speed.
They still have a dex score and must make dex-based fly checks to perform any sort of complex flight maneuver. Please stop conflating lore and fluff with game rules. They are not the same and often do not reconcile. That is why we must suspend our disbelief when we play these types of games.
This reminds me of some worshippers of Zon Kuthon. They amputate both arms and legs, then move around via the fly spell. How does that work?Fly does not = dex mod+ rank + class mod
Fly does = ability mod + rank + class mod + additional modifiersYou seem to forget that. There is a size modifier, there is a maneuverability modifier, there is a trait modifier, feat modifier, and of course a magical modifier.
In fact you can completely take dexterity out of the equation by using wisdom in its place. Wow!
Correcting my skill bonus math doesn't make you correct in regards to what Fly can do, it makes you petty. The bard, even with his cha instead of his dex, would still not be able to fly because he is paralyzed, and when you are paralyzed you cannot move.
I've played the game, and the game breaks down just like any other system when it loses self-consistency.
For example, if my arms and legs are bound together, can I fly? Why or why not? How does this differ from being paralyzed?
Sure, a fly skill check might involve some physical activity, angling your body or whatever to produce less drag. However, not being able to maneuver your body optimally just means that you can't fly as well, not that you can't fly at all.
Are you "bound" and thus helpless, or are your arms tied up giving you some DM adjudicated limitations not described specifically in the system?
If you are bound and thus helpless, nope, can't fly. If you are only bound so far as your hands are concerned, then it's up to the GM who created the condition as it's not covered by the rules.
Brain Twister: If flying via the fly spell is physical action (which I don't personally believe to be the case), then does casting it as a psychic spell make it into a mental action?Irrelevant, because there are no psychic spells in Pathfinder.
Tell that to the Psychic.
Brain Twister: If flying via the fly spell is physical action (which I don't personally believe to be the case), then does casting it as a psychic spell make it into a mental action?Irrelevant, because there are no psychic spells in Pathfinder.
Sorry friend, it is VERY relevant. The rules clearly state that psychic spells are purely mental actions.
Sorry friend, it is VERY relevant. The rules clearly state that psychic spells are purely mental actions.Brain Twister: If flying via the fly spell is physical action (which I don't personally believe to be the case), then does casting it as a psychic spell make it into a mental action?Irrelevant, because there are no psychic spells in Pathfinder.
Occult Adventures came out three weeks ago. I wasn't aware there was now a psychic class because I know nothing about OA. This link doesn't mention that particular rule, however.
In any case, the result is the same because though casting the spell may be a purely mental action, flying itself is not. The ability to fly is not an effect of the spell, it is an effect of having a fly speed of 60, which is granted by the spell. The fly speed is what allows you to move. You still cannot move if you are paralyzed.
Correcting my skill bonus math doesn't make you correct in regards to what Fly can do, it makes you petty. The bard,...The same way any other character uses their dex score to fly. If they are flying at speed in a straight line or only making 45 degree turns, they move. If they try anything more advanced, they roll a d20, add their Fly modifier (dex mod + skill ranks + class skill bonus), and then make their maneuver (or fail) depending on the result. It's like you've never played this game we're discussing before.Sure they have a dex score, how are they using it to fly.Why do people point to the use of the Dex-based skill flight as 'proof' that the fly spell is not mentally based?Because in order to use an advanced flight maneuver, even when magically flying, you must still make a dexterity-based Fly check. Flying at normal speed in a straight line doesn't change that. If it is physical when you perform an advanced maneuver, it is physical when you fly in a straight line at your fly speed.
They still have a dex score and must make dex-based fly checks to perform any sort of complex flight maneuver. Please stop conflating lore and fluff with game rules. They are not the same and often do not reconcile. That is why we must suspend our disbelief when we play these types of games.
This reminds me of some worshippers of Zon Kuthon. They amputate both arms and legs, then move around via the fly spell. How does that work?Fly does not = dex mod+ rank + class mod
Fly does = ability mod + rank + class mod + additional modifiersYou seem to forget that. There is a size modifier, there is a maneuverability modifier, there is a trait modifier, feat modifier, and of course a magical modifier.
In fact you can completely take dexterity out of the equation by using wisdom in its place. Wow!
I was just showing you that dex isn't necessary to use the skill.
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1)none of your physical actions will ever make you flyFlying is the physical action.
Flying with WINGS is strictly a physical action.
The rules don't state this anymore than flying without wings, whether you're a beholder or air elemental or bird. The rules are silent on what actions require physical actions. However, "purely mental action" is a state, and unless something provides it we can assume it isn't there. The Paralyzation doesn't say "you can take action that don't require physical movement", it says "you can take purely mental actions". The onus isn't on proving there is a physical component to flight, it's on proving flight is a purely mental action.
The Fly spell is based around no physical actions, only the concentration level used for a physical movement.Seriously, can people stop claiming this when the spell says nothing of the sort? It says that it doesn't require more concentration that walking, so that you can act normally. Concentration is a game term for spells that limit what actions you can take. It has nothing to do with how to "control" the spell at all.
bluntly put...you talk out both sides of your mouth...You claim a rules intent when it backs you up, but claim there is no rules intent when it opposes you wishes.