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The poster I responded to was certainly removing an option. The spell is clear in writing. Whatever you view as 'over powered' or 'not intended' is immaterial as you are bound by the PFS guide, as a GM, to run the game by the rules with no changes.
There is plenty in the game that is not clear, or left vague and I am not saying the game does not have those and that a GM has no room to adjudicate. The game only functions when there is a GM to make judgments about issues of clarity, snap judgements about rules not written and ask players to avoid using disruptive abilities. Among the many many other tasks they have at the table.
As a GM volunteer, I may not have the right to make things up, but I absolutely have the right to call out a player for being a butthead who is ruining the fun for me as the GM as well as the other players at the table. I also have the right to tell him to cut that crap out.
We had a player a couple of weeks ago try to say that he can Kraken Throttle anyone to death in 2 rounds because there was never an "Official PFS Ruling" made on it, only people talking about it on the forums who may or may not have been the guy who wrote the rule. This same player tried that gold weapon trick to get money at level 1 some time back.
We told him not to do it, and he said we couldn't stop him. We then said he could just not come if he's going to act like a jerk.
I understand that you as a player wouldn't use it, and that's awesome, but I'm right there with rknop.
Ultimately, it looks like this spell needs some work in how it interacts with other abilities and spells in the game.
"RAW" is a term used to adjudicate rules conditions, not a tool to justify exploiting loopholes in the rules and justify poor choices for cooperation and fair gameplay.
If someone is making choices that impact the fun of everyone else at the table, I don't care if that choice is technically RAW or not. I can say no, or ask them to leave the table.
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The poster I responded to was certainly removing an option. The spell is clear in writing. Whatever you view as 'over powered' or 'not intended' is immaterial as you are bound by the PFS guide, as a GM, to run the game by the rules with no changes.
There is plenty in the game that is not clear, or left vague and I am not saying the game does not have those and that a GM has no room to adjudicate. The game only functions when there is a GM to make judgments about issues of clarity, snap judgements about rules not written and ask players to avoid using disruptive abilities. Among the many many other tasks they have at the table.
As a GM volunteer, I may not have the right to make things up, but I absolutely have the right to call out a player for being a butthead who is ruining the fun for me as the GM as well as the other players at the table. I also have the right to tell him to cut that crap out.
We had a player a couple of weeks ago try to say that he can Kraken Throttle anyone to death in 2 rounds because there was never an "Official PFS Ruling" made on it, only people talking about it on the forums who may or may not have been the guy who wrote the rule. This same player tried that gold weapon trick to get money at level 1 some time back.
We told him not to do it, and he said we couldn't stop him. We then said he could just not come if he's going to act like a jerk.
I understand that you as a player wouldn't use it, and that's awesome, but I'm right there with rknop.
Ultimately, it looks like this spell needs some work in how it interacts with other abilities and spells in the game.
Nothing you said here is different than what I said. You asked the player not to.. like I said a GM can/should do. The only thing I didn't say that you added, which is completely valid and I would not say anything against, is that you asked the player to no longer come to the games for being disruptive.
I'm not sure how he was getting 2 rounds and done. That seems to be an interpretation at best, and directly against the rules at worst... They still get to hold their breath. Unless he also knocked them out somehow.
"Suffocation
A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The check must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.
When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates."
Even if a GM does break the rules and makes a bad ruling, the player is being disruptive if he fights it at the table. That is when he must go to the VC instead of ruin the game for the rest of the table.
None of that changes the rules and it follows the PFS guide for how a GM handles issues.
When I say a GM is not allowed to change the rules... I'm not saying anything other than that. There are rules and guidelines for GMs to handle disruptive players, it just doesn't include adding or subtracting rules.
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Disagreed. Let's take a level 5 wizard (conjurer) who uses this, taking Heighten spell as his bonus feat so it really isn't much of a feat tax. Let's also say they took Magical Lineage (Mount).
Magical Linage - Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level. --- 2 things to this
#1 .. Heightened Spell doesn't Add levels to the Spell it MAKES it a different level Spell
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.
so you cant reduce it (via the Folloowing FAQ)
Magical Lineage (trait): Can I use this trait to adjust a spell's effective level below the unmodified spell's original level?
No. For example, it won't allow you to alter a wizard's fireball into 2nd-level spell.
the new Level of the Spell is what you prepared it as ... and as seen there you cannot Reduce it
if the 5th level Conjurer wants to blow his whole wad on 3 Lantern archons with a 10 hour Duration fine by me ... those things are super easy to eliminate
So for one bunus feat, plus 2 second level spell slots (out of 8), plus a 15000 gp staff that I can use for a bunch of other things, starting at level 8, I getCommunal Mount + 7 charges = Summon Monster 9. CR 14
that staff isnt even PFS legal
GameMastery Module W1: Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale (OGL). does not appear on the Additional resource listso this whole point is invalid
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The Staff of the Master in Ultimate Equipment, however, is legal.
And yes, it does cost 30,000 gp, not 15,000 gp.
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so you cant reduce it (via the Folloowing FAQ)
Magical Lineage (trait): Can I use this trait to adjust a spell's effective level below the unmodified spell's original level?
No. For example, it won't allow you to alter a wizard's fireball into 2nd-level spell.the new Level of the Spell is what you prepared it as ... and as seen there you cannot Reduce it
Except that it isn't below the spell's unmodified original level, so that FAQ does not apply to this case. That would only prevent Mount from being cast as a level 0 spell, not being "overcharged" to count as a higher level spell.
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The argument is, is taking a breath or holding ones breath an action? If so, is it one that that can be taken off your turn? Is there a difference between holding what breath you have and taking a deep breath?
Breathing is not an action. If it were you would be taking it every turn to not die. You don't die when not taking an action to breathe... thus it is not an 'action' as defined by the game. Not even an immediate one. In fact, if you did not breathe off your turn inhaled poisons wouldn't work when attacked by them off your turn.
Holding your breath is a consequence of not having air. You are always considered holding what breath you have as Suffocation rules do not even include a 'deep breath' clause. You can hold your breathe without air for so long, as defined in suffocation. Holding your breathe is also not an action, just as breathing is not an action. (Hint, if someone doesn't die from being paralyzed for two turns, IE: Can not take actions, then breathing isn't an action. Heh... should have paralyzed that character and then said, "we'll go with your ruling!")
If someone drops you in water when it is not your turn you do not suddenly die two turns later. Thus, someone choking you off your turn does not kill you two turns later. It does not automatically empty a creatures lungs.
The argument does not hold water. Water or vacuum would be sadistically deadly environments in the game and every wizard would be using Call the Void.
Many many many unavoidable player deaths would result if that was how suffocation rules worked.
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with your logic you are reducing its Unmodified Original level
Heightened Spell doesn't Modify anything .. it Replaces the level of the spell, you prepare heightened Mount to level 4 ... it IS a level 4 spellwhy do you think there are no Heightened Metamagic Rods beause the cost changes would be uncalculatable with the current scale that they use - Heighten Adds Nothing adds Nothing
a Heightened Continual Flame to 4th level IS a 4th level Spell and is Prepared as a 4th level Spell
you must havand anyways Since you are not adding Levels to the spell Lineage wont work as I said above.
That seems like a highly semantic argument relying on the interpretation that heighten spell works differently than every other metamagic.
Either way, even without that, I feel the very fact that this argument is happening around this spell is reason enough that it is probably not appropriate for PFS.
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That seems like a highly semantic argument relying on the interpretation that heighten spell works differently than every other metamagic.
Either way, even without that, I feel the very fact that this argument is happening around this spell is reason enough that it is probably not appropriate for PFS.
horray for Horrid response timing
I Just read the FAQ on Heightened Spell that makes all this garbage Work where the Actual text of the feat Makes it Not work
not the 1st time Ive seen the FAQ Muck something up
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Another trick I thought of...extended heightened mount from the day before (maybe using extend metamagic rod). Summoning your army the day before you do the adventure, lol.
It would effectively be a small army that is constant, and includes monsters from the highest Summon Monster you can cast. And, relatively cheap. You could do two or three of these. At 8th level, they last 32 hours without CL adjustments. So, you would have about two days worth of this going most of the time. Meaning, realistically, 4-6 of these running around you at any one time.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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The Staff of the Master in Ultimate Equipment, however, is legal.
And yes, it does cost 30,000 gp, not 15,000 gp.
You are a straight wizard building a character to pull this off.
Are you telling me you seriously are not *going* to take Arcane Bond (staff)? :)
It costs 15,000 (but still needs 30,000 gp worth of fame, hence kicking in at level 8 or 9) (I actually didn't even (and still don't) know what the other staff from bloodsworn vale is)
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The Staff of the Master in Ultimate Equipment, however, is legal.
And yes, it does cost 30,000 gp, not 15,000 gp.
You are a straight wizard building a character to pull this off.
Are you telling me you seriously are not *going* to take Arcane Bond (staff)? :)
It costs 15,000 (but still needs 30,000 gp worth of fame, hence kicking in at level 8 or 9) (I actually didn't even (and still don't) know what the other staff from bloodsworn vale is)
You actually still have to be level 11, as the wizard's bonded object section states that you are treated as if you had the feat, but only if you meet the level requirement for it.
Wondrous at 3rd, weapons at 5th, staves at 11th.
Edit:
A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required item creation feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat. For example, a wizard with a bonded dagger must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the dagger (see the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat in Feats).
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Another trick I thought of...extended heightened mount from the day before (maybe using extend metamagic rod). Summoning your army the day before you do the adventure, lol.
Seems like a non starter, just like allowing a necromancer to create his undead army (availability of corpses given/bought), or a summoner to call and bind outsiders ahead of time.
The scenario does not start an unlimited time before the scenario, it starts when you get the briefing.
While I would personally allow characters to trade spells before the scenario... some actions are really questionable (like allowing the party staff magus to take 3 weeks to recharge every staff the party has).
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Another trick I thought of...extended heightened mount from the day before (maybe using extend metamagic rod). Summoning your army the day before you do the adventure, lol.Seems like a non starter, just like allowing a necromancer to create his undead army (availability of corpses given/bought), or a summoner to call and bind outsiders ahead of time.
The scenario does not start an unlimited time before the scenario, it starts when you get the briefing.
While I would personally allow characters to trade spells before the scenario... some actions are really questionable (like allowing the party staff magus to take 3 weeks to recharge every staff the party has).
Many scenarios have travel time before you get to the 'adventure' part.
While you typically can't have spells going before the briefing, you can cast them right after and during travel time.He spends 6 turns summoning today and has a small army. One the first day of travel after a nights sleep, he casts again. Rinse repeat until they arrive.
The necromancer only has a 'no bodies' issue, it is usually not a time issue.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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The Staff of the Master in Ultimate Equipment, however, is legal.
And yes, it does cost 30,000 gp, not 15,000 gp.
You are a straight wizard building a character to pull this off.
Are you telling me you seriously are not *going* to take Arcane Bond (staff)? :)
It costs 15,000 (but still needs 30,000 gp worth of fame, hence kicking in at level 8 or 9) (I actually didn't even (and still don't) know what the other staff from bloodsworn vale is)
You actually still have to be level 11, as the wizard's bonded object section states that you are treated as if you had the feat, but only if you meet the level requirement for it.
Wondrous at 3rd, weapons at 5th, staves at 11th.
Edit:
A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required item creation feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat. For example, a wizard with a bonded dagger must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the dagger (see the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat in Feats).
Hmm... good point. Somehow I got it into my head that staves were 7.