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Well, the Unchained Rogue now has enough uses of Major Magic to make it a worthwhile talent.
What are the best spells to pick up?
Shield looks good, but you are basically paying two talents for +4 AC, which is good but not quite great.
Vanish is alright but limited and the caster can always grant it to you.
True Strike seems nice but lacking manoeuvres to exploit makes it less fun.
Anyway, what's your best ideas?
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Bookish Rogue so I don't actually have to choose
Dazzling Blade is a nice swift action to potentially blind.
Snowball is a strong ranged touch.
I doubt the DC's will ever be respectable enough :7
Blend if you're at least half elf.
Heightened Awareness would be handy. The material component is a coffee bean so roleplaying the effect might be fun.
If you're a sylph, Windy Escape can save you from your mistakes.
Vanish.
Expeditious retreat
Monkeyhfish
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True Strike. For everyone who says "Blargh, Rogue's need to hit first!" it's a good thing to remind 'em that a Rogue can assuredly hit several times a day and then keep going.
Reduce Person effectively gives you a +2 tp Attack and Damage, and a +1 to AC. Your Weapon Damage reduces, but Sneak Attack remains constant, so... WHOOPIE!!!
+2 to attack but I don't think to damage is it? Unless you go tiny then it's +4 to hit and 2 to damage.
Anyways I fully back Monkey fish. It's great, no need to save and climb speed means no window is safe. Swim means no exit is blocked!
Oh, yeah - +2 to Attack, +1 to damage
Still worth it.
Monkey Fish was one of the ones I was looking the hardest at. I like the movement options.
Now, the big question is... What to pick with MINOR Magic?
Shield looks good, but you are basically paying two talents for +4 AC, which is good but not quite great.
There are plenty of cantrips that a rogue would get great use out of being able to cast at will, so don't write Minor Magic off as tax entirely.
Anyway, what about Obscuring Mist or Summon Monster I?
Shield looks good, but you are basically paying two talents for +4 AC, which is good but not quite great.
Right, 'cause Detect Magic at will is always a bad thing...
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Yeah a rogue with detect magic or message is real good. Those minor choices are great.
Shield is great. It's +4 AC. But also FORCE which is good against incorporeal. Also it auto counters magic missile.
Vanish is another great pick to get away when stealth failed or you want to move across the battlefield and assassinate someone.
Windy escape is good depending on what the enemy is holding/using.
Let's not overlook protection from evil. Those will saves are brutal.
I think you have to plan on monsters always making their save. The DC is going to be 11 + your INT modifier. Monsters will outstrip that quickly, especially for fortitude saves. So Snowball could be nice for the damage but realistically the staggering isn't going to happen.
So you want no-save spells or spells where a save still leaves it somewhat effective. If you've taken the scout archetype you definitely want one spell that does ranged touch damage since you will eventually be able to move and trigger sneak attack with it (with all that entails... brutal beating, debilitating injury, bleeding attack/crippling strike). It's also handy to be able to snap off a ranged attack after starting a surprise round empty handed.
I think the first level utility options are much stronger than the cantrips. It's hard to go wrong with what's been suggested, though I think monkeyfish solves a problem that goes away on its own by the time you can get major magic. I'd be inclined to go with acid splash and obscuring mist.
Obscuring mist makes a nice "oh crap" button when you just need to get away. It can keep archers off your back while you deal with melee fighters. If your party is at all tactical you can use it to set up chokepoints and kill monsters one at a time. If your party is very coordinated you can all get items to cut through the mist and really go nuts.
OTOH spells that aren't level dependent are equally good with a wand, so I could see the argument for Message + Snowball + wand quiver.
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Is it better to pick up damage like Ray of Frost/Acid Splash, or utility like Mage Hand or Prestidigitation?
Bookish Rogue, and use all the arcane cantrips you want. If you can only use one, I'd go with acid splash.
If you've variant multi-classed yourself into an oracle that can see through mist, than probably obscuring mist.
If you've variant multi-classed yourself into a magus, then I think chill touch.
Normal rogue with regular stuff, reduce person. Doubly so if you're already small.
Is it better to pick up damage like Ray of Frost/Acid Splash, or utility like Mage Hand or Prestidigitation?Bookish Rogue, and use all the arcane cantrips you want. If you can only use one, I'd go with acid splash.
Well, it says you can replace either Minor OR Major.
It's just dumb for Minor Magic, and it's still quite badass for Major.
Considering how often a Rogue can use Major Magic in a day, that means that a Rogue carrying around a little black book of "Roguey McStabbersons' Guide to Every Utility Spell You'll Ever Need" is actually a very, very strong build, honestly.
Is it better to pick up damage like Ray of Frost/Acid Splash, or utility like Mage Hand or Prestidigitation?
Well, Acid Splash doesn't give a save, so it's better than Ray of Frost, but utility would probably be better than the damage cantrips.
What about Gillmen talent?
Bookish Rogue, and use all the arcane cantrips you want. If you can only use one, I'd go with acid splash.
The other feat that hasn't been mentioned here yet is Quicken Spell-Like Ability. Three swift action snowballs or true strikes a day is pretty sweet. Even acid splash can be quite good: ranged touch sneak attack damage/effects is strong even when the delivery vehicle is weak.
Does anybody know if you quicken your major magic ability and then swap it out with bookish rogue whether you automatically quicken the new ability?
Minor Magic is three times a day, and Major is twice. Is that really that useful even if you can change the spell?
Considering how often a Rogue can use Major Magic in a day, that means that a Rogue carrying around a little black book of "Roguey McStabbersons' Guide to Every Utility Spell You'll Ever Need" is actually a very, very strong build, honestly.
With Unchained, Minor Magic is at will, while Major Magic is once every two Rogue levels.
Bookish Rogue, and use all the arcane cantrips you want. If you can only use one, I'd go with acid splash.The other feat that hasn't been mentioned here yet is Quicken Spell-Like Ability. Three swift action snowballs or true strikes a day is pretty sweet. Even acid splash can be quite good: ranged touch sneak attack damage/effects is strong even when the delivery vehicle is weak.
Yeah, IF Quicken Spell-Like Ability is allowed.
It's not in PFS, and enough DMs don't allow PCs to take "Monster" Feats that you have to assume it doesn't exist unless you can get it from another source.
But, yes. QSAL gives you Vanish 1/turn as a Swift Action, which is bonkers.
Bookish Rogue, and use all the arcane cantrips you want. If you can only use one, I'd go with acid splash.The other feat that hasn't been mentioned here yet is Quicken Spell-Like Ability. Three swift action snowballs or true strikes a day is pretty sweet. Even acid splash can be quite good: ranged touch sneak attack damage/effects is strong even when the delivery vehicle is weak.
Yeah, IF Quicken Spell-Like Ability is allowed.
It's not in PFS, and enough DMs don't allow PCs to take "Monster" Feats that you have to assume it doesn't exist unless you can get it from another source.
But, yes. QSAL gives you Vanish 1/turn as a Swift Action, which is bonkers.
..bonkers...like a ninja? Or a rogue with Ki talent and Ninja talent bonkers?
But, yes. QSAL gives you Vanish 1/turn as a Swift Action, which is bonkers.
Ninjas can do it with Vanishing Trick, and can be enhanced at 10
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These are just my favourite comboes for different types of rogues:
Scholarly Rogue:
Minor Scrivener's Chant
Major Kreighton's Perusal
TWF Rogue:
Minor Arcane Mark
Major Shadow Weapon or Icicle Dagger
Combat Rogue:
Minor Acid Splash
Major True Strike
Ranged Rogue:
Minor Jolt or Penumbra
Major Gravity Bow
Defender Rogue:
Minor Root
Major Line in the Sand
Stealth Rogue:
Minor Ghost Sound
Major Vanish
Morale Rogue:
Minor Drench
Major Moment of Greatness
Face Rogue:
Minor Message
Major Charm Person
Assassin Rogue:
Minor Detect Magic
Major Alchemical Tinkering
Looter Rogue:
Minor Scoop
Major Tenser's Floating Disk
Gnome Rogue(also known as best rogue):
Minor Any one you don't have
Major Recharge Innate Magic
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These are just my favourite combos for different types of rogues:
Scholarly Rogue:
Minor Scrivener's Chant
Major Kreighton's Perusal
TWF Rogue:
Minor Arcane Mark
Major Shadow Weapon or Icicle Dagger
Combat Rogue:
Minor Acid Splash
Major True Strike
Ranged Rogue:
Minor Jolt or Penumbra
Major Gravity Bow
Defender Rogue:
Minor Root
Major Line in the Sand
Stealth Rogue:
Minor Ghost Sound
Major Vanish
Morale Rogue:
Minor Drench
Major Moment of Greatness
Face Rogue:
Minor Message
Major Charm Person
Assassin Rogue:
Minor Detect Magic
Major Alchemical Tinkering
Looter Rogue:
Minor Scoop
Major Tenser's Floating Disk
Gnome Rogue(also known as best rogue):
Minor Any one you don't have
Major Recharge Innate Magic
- a note, this is how I made a character very similar to the kineticist before it came out: Pyro trait+Fey Magic trait so now you have 6 rechargeable cantrips, 1 druid spell(I like cheetah's sprint for movement) and Produce Flame a number of times/day equal to 1+1/2 lvl. Produce Flame is TWF able and Rapid shot able and the flames produced are touch attacks so all those negatives really don't matter with your crazy high dex.
Well, I guess someone's decided to houserule in Create Water as an option, because that's quite the flooding.
Yeah, IF Quicken Spell-Like Ability is allowed.
It's not in PFS, and enough DMs don't allow PCs to take "Monster" Feats that you have to assume it doesn't exist unless you can get it from another source.
But, yes. QSAL gives you Vanish 1/turn as a Swift Action, which is bonkers.
Whoops, my mistake. My understanding is that in general players ought to be able to take those feats if they cleanly meet the pre-reqs. I should have double checked the additional resources re: PFS.
For the investment of a feat + two talents I would describe it as "useful" more than bonkers, especially since you can't take it until 10th level. A ninja can do the same thing with one trick starting from second level and they haven't wrecked the game as far as I can tell.
With regard to some of the other suggestions here, I think you have to ask two questions before you take a spell as your minor/major magic:
(1) Could I just buy a wand or scroll for this?
(2) Will this actually work? (If a saving throw negates, the answer is "no").
I do think once you are investing in both talents you might as well burn the feat on bookish rogue so you can play dime store wizard and customize your loadout for each scenario.
How about Face of the Devourer? A +4 to Intimidate checks for Enforcer and Thug shenanigans, as well as an extra attack for a natural attack build (or just an extra attack in addition to weapon attacks if you're confident in your to-hit bonus).
Or Long Arm for a reach rogue build with that elven branched spear.
Swift truestrike sounds fun and exciting, and probably a worthy dip for most martials. And only a reduction of BAB by 1.
These are just my favourite combos for different types of rogues:
Scholarly Rogue:
Minor Scrivener's Chant
Major Kreighton's PerusalTWF Rogue:
Minor Arcane Mark
Major Shadow Weapon or Icicle Dagger...
I've been considering Shadow Weapon for a character. I love the flavor, but I keep thinking that just buying a dagger would be better than burning a limited resource. What am I missing? (I'd love to hear about the value of Icicle Dagger as well.)
How about Face of the Devourer? A +4 to Intimidate checks for Enforcer and Thug shenanigans, as well as an extra attack for a natural attack build (or just an extra attack in addition to weapon attacks if you're confident in your to-hit bonus).
What I love about that one is that it doesn't affect your Diplomacy rolls at all. So you can be walking around with a nightmare face and still make friends as usual.
Why not just have it in a wand in a spring loaded sheath, though? I guess I could see an argument for the duration, but 5-12 minutes vs. one minute doesn't seem like a huge difference as it's basically one battle per casting either way.
Swift truestrike sounds fun and exciting, and probably a worthy dip for most martials. And only a reduction of BAB by 1.
Your caster level is your rogue level. Quicken spell like ability requires that your SLA be at CL 10 or higher. That's a heck of a dip.
I've been considering Shadow Weapon for a character. I love the flavor, but I keep thinking that just buying a dagger would be better than burning a limited resource. What am I missing? (I'd love to hear about the value of Icicle Dagger as well.)
Cool factor? (*rimshot*)
I guess if your DM is in the habit of stealing all your stuff it could come in handy. And the free enhancement is kind of nice. If you go knife master and Deific Obedience: Pharasma it could sort of work. Definite style points for the returning ice dagger. The will save on the shadow weapon is going to get you killed, though.
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Sorry about the double post, but I went through and collected the spells that meet the "better than a wand" criteria. I figured it would be helpful to have it all in one place.
0-level spells: Acid splash. Saves you a swift action when you get caught out empty handed. Also saves a slot in your spring loaded wrist sheathe. All other cantrips can be put on a wand, unless you're really spiking INT to try to actually force monsters to fail their saves, which seems like a losing game.
First-level spells: The candidates here are spells that have relevant scaling effects or durations based on caster level. Note that most of the scaling effects are capped at 5.
Magic missile (1d4 + 1 force damage, additional missile at 3, 5, 7, and 9) -- A decent utility choice. Scaling damage, always hits, and force damage is nice. No sneak attack, though.
Ray of Enfeeblement (1d6 + 1 per two caster levels in STR damage) -- Divide it in half since monsters will always make the save. Again, no sneak attack. Still, not a bad option to have around if you don't have crippling strike.
Touch of Gracelessness (1d6 + 1 per two caster levels in DEX damage) -- Divide it in half since monsters will always make the save. Again, no sneak attack. More specialized than Enfeeblement, and probably less effective than a Tanglefoot bag.
Corrosive Touch (1d4 per level acid damage) -- Melee touch attack. We're now getting sneak attack. Compared to snowball you have less fear of elemental resistance and can get sneak attack from flanking.
Snowball (1d6 per level cold damage) -- Ranged touch attack. Staggering isn't going to happen, but this is still the gold standard for ranged spells. Nice way to start a surprise round if you're empty handed.
Thunderstomp: A distant trip attempt that lets you use your rogue level instead of your BAB and your INT modifier instead of your STR. This actually solves a lot of problems if you really want to make a rogue trip build. Enough problems that it's worth the effort? I don't know.
Anticipate peril: A +1 to initiative per caster level. It does stack with Heightened Awareness, so I guess if you really want to go first this could be your huckleberry.
Windy Escape: This is one where a wand really wouldn't work. Can you take this in PFS without a boon? If so, this is a nice survivability boost with good action economy.
Sometimes the duration increase from an increase in caster level can become relevant. I believe it is not relevant in minutes/level spells. Any given combat is usually over in one minute, and it's tough to string two combats together in 5-10 minutes if you're doing any kind of post-combat healing and searching. Duration is more important on the high and low ends. On the high end it can turn spells into all day sources of utility. On the low end a spell measured in rounds/level might be useless coming out of a wand for one level, but quite handy if you get 5-10 rounds of it.
The longer duration spells are much more enticing for the bookish rogue, who can switch to one, cast it, then switch to a combat-oriented spell--all in the time it takes the wizard to prepare his spells for the day.
Ant Haul: Calculating encumbrance is no fun. Also, if you're doing something wacky with a mount this spell is often a key cog in the machine. Getting it for 2 hours per level will save a lot of wand charges.
Floating Disk: Why walk from point A to point B like a sucker? Depending on how your GM manages the things, riding one of these into combat could give you a height bonus to your attack rolls, if nothing else. If he lets you spend your move action to move the disk around you can use it to get your party barbarian into position for a full attack. Again, getting it for an hour a level means you will have it when you need it without burning through a bunch of wand charges.
Mage Armor: Eh, you can wear regular armor. Maybe if you manage to spike your dex super high this would be worth it. Or if you really dumped strength and your GM actually checks encumbrance so you need to get your weight down to the minimum.
Unseen servant: Trap detector, decoy, all around gofer... what's not to like? At one hour/level this can be a very handy use of one of your Major Magic castings.
Comprehend languages: 10 minutes per level seems more convenient than 10 minutes. Still, how often does this even come up? I bet if you started with a wand of comprehend languages and set out to use it whenever it would be helpful you could get through your whole Pathfinder career without exhausting the thing. Honestly, a scroll or two is the most you need.
Heightened awareness: This is pretty sweet. +2 to perception and knowledge, and you can cash it in for +4 to initiative when intiative gets rolled. 10 min/level duration means you're almost always going to pop the initiative bonus. OTOH the flat 10 minutes is going to work out for you 95% of the time. Nice spell, though.
Animate Rope: Cute, but a tanglefoot bag is almost always better.
Snapdragon Fireworks: I guess this lets you use your move action to attack? If you could finagle your way into getting sneak attack out of the fireworks it could be good, but I'm not seeing it. 1d4 / 2 damage does not seem like a fair trade for a move action to me. OTOH the range is crazy high, so maybe there are some edge cases where it would be useful.
Ray of enfeeblement and touch of gracelessness also measure duration in rounds per level.
To sum up:
Corrosive Touch and Snowball are damage champions. Corrosive touch if you're getting sneak attack through flanking, Snowball if you have other plans. The big utility of both other than raw damage is that you get to attack your enemy's touch AC instead of regular AC.
Vanish and Windy Escape are utility kings. Windy Escape is better if you're taking front line duties, while Vanish offers a little more flexibility and classic sneaky rogue flavor.
Thunderstomp could be the foundation for a pretty cool trip build. It's not going to be fantastic to just throw in to a character but if you built around it you might wind up somewhere good.
In addition to those spells, a bookish rogue will probably want to collect for his spellbook:
- Unseen Servant
- Floating Disk
- Anticipate Peril
- Magic Missile
- Snapdragon Fireworks
I mean, you might as well gather a bunch of other stuff since first level spells are pretty cheap, but these are the ones that seem particularly well suited for using in your major magic slot instead of buying a wand.
Snapdragon Fireworks: You have to remember that it is area attack damage. You see a swarm far enough away, as long as it's now immune to fire, you can nickel and dime it to death. Also works great as a signal.
For me, an anti-swarm attack is never a bad thing. ;)
I'd rather have a Swarmbane clasp, but snapdragon fireworks is a cheap alternative.
I like that it's an extra attack with a move action and it's range is as good as you'll get (400'+). I find it a solid action at ranged until you manage multiple attacks and swarms just suck unless you have the cash to deal with them (the clasp or alchemic items). My bookish rogue always has snapdragon in her book.
I think you'd prep burning hands if you thought you were going to be up close and personal with swarms. Snapdragon is nice for those tower defense kind of scenarios where you see people coming from miles away.
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I've been considering Shadow Weapon for a character. I love the flavor, but I keep thinking that just buying a dagger would be better than burning a limited resource. What am I missing? (I'd love to hear about the value of Icicle Dagger as well.)These are just my favourite combos for different types of rogues:
Scholarly Rogue:
Minor Scrivener's Chant
Major Kreighton's PerusalTWF Rogue:
Minor Arcane Mark
Major Shadow Weapon or Icicle Dagger...
Icicle Dagger scales somewhat as you level(so it is better if you use daggers) but shadow weapon is very good if you are proficient/plan to be proficient in technological melee weapons as they are not disallowed by the spell. So it matters whether you're allowed basically, because having a summonable shadow chainsaw is rad as hell but won't be allowed at most tables.
Minor Magic: acid splash, ray of frost (brown mold, anyone?), and possibly disrupt undead (if undead are a campaign focus) are all nice choices. At will ranged touch (plus possible Sneak Attack damage)? Yes, please.
Major Magic: Defensively, protection from evil can be great if you are up against evil summoned monsters and evil mind-controllers. Animate rope can be a nice way to entangle foes (without the duration issues of adhesive spittle). Color spray is useful for setting up Sneak Attacks (blinded or stunned opponents are denied Dex to AC). Long arm can help set up flanking without being attacked as easily. True strike and vanish have already been mentioned.
I think you'd prep burning hands if you thought you were going to be up close and personal with swarms. Snapdragon is nice for those tower defense kind of scenarios where you see people coming from miles away.
There is a LOT of range between 15' and 400'+. Unless you expect to be arm-wrestling swarms at a range they can swarm you back, I'll take snapdragon.
It's also pinpoint on one square so you avoid friendly fire. A 15' cone in "up close and personal" quarters is begging for collateral damage.
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Liberating command.
Because grapple is bad.
Liberating command.
Because grapple is bad.
Yes, an immediate action escape artist checks with a 2xlevel bonus is nothing to sneeze it.
Yes, an immediate action escape artist checks with a 2xlevel bonus is nothing to sneeze it.Liberating command.
Because grapple is bad.
Note that the rogue can't use it on themselves. The spell is an immediate action, and requires the target to use an immediate action on the spot. Unless you can find a way of getting a second immediate action...somehow(I can think of an item that lets you convert swift->move, but it is still a terrible idea).
True. And the concentration dcs are in the "impossible to make" range.