Animate Dead and Tiger


Rules Questions


Skeleton Template says, in part, "Special Attacks: A skeleton retains none of the base creature's special attacks" and "A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks."

So are Pounce, Rake and Grab special attacks or extraordinary special qualities that improve melee attacks?


Driver_325yards wrote:

Skeleton Template says, in part, "Special Attacks: A skeleton retains none of the base creature's special attacks" and "A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks."

So are Pounce, Rake and Grab special attacks or extraordinary special qualities that improve melee attacks?

Pounce and Rake are listed as special attacks, therefore you would lose them. Grab is a special quality of an attack, so you would keep it. Personally I would consider pounce as a special quality that improves its melee attacks (because full attacks on the charge are an improvement) but by RAW it's a special attack.

EDIT: according to the Pathfinder srd, Skeletons retain the Pounce Special Attack. So apparently my interpretation of inheriting Pounce is RAI.


Writer wrote:


EDIT: according to the Pathfinder srd, Skeletons retain the Pounce Special Attack. So apparently my interpretation of inheriting Pounce is RAI.

I don't understand your edit. Where does the Pathfinder SRD say that skeletons retain pounce?


According to Pathfinder Bestiary monsters with the skeleton template can retain pounce. When in doubt check monster listings with the template applied, it usually straightens things out.


Writer wrote:

According to Pathfinder Bestiary monsters with the skeleton template can retain pounce. When in doubt check monster listings with the template applied, it usually straightens things out.

Or the module that creature appeared in was wrong.

Pounce is listed as a special attack in the Bestiary. And the skeleton template specifically says all special attacks are lost.


The skeleton template notes that it retains extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. It makes no distinction between special attacks or special abilities, merely that it must improve their attacking ability and it must be extraordinary.

Pounce meets these requirements.


Writer, you are not quoting the "Pathfinder Bestiary", you are quoting the D20PFSRD which is not official.

Additionally, the module that creature was in is not a Pathfinder RPG module, it is a 3.5 module.


Noted. I'd ammend the above post but I can't access edit for some reason.


This looks like a stat block error in that specific Megaraptor. Pounce is a special attack and should be removed when applying the Zombie or Skeleton template.

Quote:

The skeleton template notes that it retains extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. It makes no distinction between special attacks or special abilities, merely that it must improve their attacking ability and it must be extraordinary.

A Special Attack is not a Special Quality. Look it up in any stat block, Special Attacks are never listed in the Special Quality ("SQ") section.


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Quote:
Ashiel wrote:

The skeleton template notes that it retains extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. It makes no distinction between special attacks or special abilities, merely that it must improve their attacking ability and it must be extraordinary.

Pounce meets these requirements.

Dasrak wrote:
A Special Attack is not a Special Quality. Look it up in any stat block, Special Attacks are never listed in the Special Quality ("SQ") section.

I stand corrected. Dasrak is right. I forgot about the SQ section and was thinking that it was making no distinction between attacks and abilities.


I think a wolf skeleton or "zombie woof" would also lose the Trip special attack. That's a real shame since Trip works great at the levels where such creatures are likely to appear.

I'm basing this off the fact that in the Trip section of the Universal Monster Rules it says, "A creature with the trip special attack can attempt to trip its opponent as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity if it hits with the specified attack."


Reading through the universal monster rules, I've actually become confused. The term special attack is thrown around and used inconsistently from one rules entry to the next. Trip is described as a special attack, but its format text says it's not a special attack; Bleed is described as an ability, but its format text says it is a special attack; Push and Pull are described as abilities, but their format text describes them as being listed in both special attacks and individual attacks, but in actual stat blocks they're only listed only in the special attacks section; Grab is described as a special attack, and its format text says it should be in the individual attacks and special attacks, but the actual stat blocks only list it with the individual attacks and not special attacks.

So the descriptive text, the format text, and the actual stat blocks using the rules are not necessarily in agreement with each other and there's no consistency between one rule to the next. I'd be inclined to rule in accordance to however the actual stat blocks are structured, simply out of practicality, but the RAW appears to be unclear on the matter.


Thanks for the answers. I did not expect the issue to be so complex.

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