paizo.com Recent Posts in The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)paizo.com Recent Posts in The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)2024-01-14T11:36:29Z2024-01-14T11:36:29ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)Arthedainhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1842024-01-14T11:40:59Z2024-01-14T11:36:26Z<p>Ah, yes, good point. I must admit I had forgotten about that. I have replaced house Urvis with the (almost extinct) house of one of my players. Thanks for the reminder. Then it's more a matter of how such an adoption law is written (that it must come with "all rights and privileges"). :)</p>Ah, yes, good point. I must admit I had forgotten about that. I have replaced house Urvis with the (almost extinct) house of one of my players. Thanks for the reminder. Then it's more a matter of how such an adoption law is written (that it must come with "all rights and privileges"). :)Arthedain2024-01-14T11:36:26ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1832024-01-14T02:00:59Z2024-01-14T01:59:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Arthedain wrote:</div><blockquote><p>@Zimmerwald1915, one question regarding your idea about opening up for adoptions in the 5 families. You quote the following:
</p>
"five bloodlines [are] required to form the Board of Governors".
<br />
My initial thought when reading this was that the family members must actually be related by blood - not just by adopting someone to the family.
<br />
To some extent I guess it's either up to what is defined as "related" / "same family" in Cheliax. </blockquote><p>Laria Longroad's case establishes pretty definitively that one can count as a candidate for Governorship by being adopted into one of the five families, or at least by being made heir to a Governor. She is no Urvis by blood—her ancestor, Peletera Talltallow, was Alveda Urvis's servant[1] before being made her heir. <i>See</i> Groves, <i>et al.</i>, <i>Pathfinder Adventure Path #101: The Kintargo Contract</i>, at •22 - 23 (2016) ("Baroness Urvis bequeathed the entire estate, along with all rights and privileges, to her loyal halfling caretaker, Peletera Talltallow").
<p>[1] I read Peletera as having been a free servant at the time of the bequeathing because she is only referred to as being "sold into slavery" afterwards. <i>See</i> <i>id.</i>, at •23.</p>Arthedain wrote:@Zimmerwald1915, one question regarding your idea about opening up for adoptions in the 5 families. You quote the following:
"five bloodlines [are] required to form the Board of Governors".
My initial thought when reading this was that the family members must actually be related by blood - not just by adopting someone to the family.
To some extent I guess it's either up to what is defined as "related" / "same family" in Cheliax.
Laria Longroad's case establishes pretty...zimmerwald19152024-01-14T01:59:27ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)Arthedainhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1822024-01-13T23:00:58Z2024-01-13T23:00:35Z<p>First: Thanks, both of you, for the quick replies with interesting thoughts and views :)</p>
<p>Overall I really want to reward my players for being interested in making the city better, so not being able to say (without doubt about the correctness of the ruling) "Yes, my dear heroes, we can adjust the contract and let ol' Queen Abrogail sit there with egg on her face." was a bit annoying. But the ideas you have are very interesting.</p>
<p>They have used Rexus Victocora as a "back room administrator" of sorts, and I am thinking he could sit down with them and say something along the lines of "I have gone over the contract again, and I must unfortunately say that it seems not possible to adjust the contract." But then, with a gleam in his eye say "However... I think I have a solution ..."</p>
<p>@Zimmerwald1915, one question regarding your idea about opening up for adoptions in the 5 families. You quote the following:
<br />
"five bloodlines [are] required to form the Board of Governors".
<br />
My initial thought when reading this was that the family members must actually be related by blood - not just by adopting someone to the family.
<br />
To some extent I guess it's either up to what is defined as "related" / "same family" in Cheliax.</p>First: Thanks, both of you, for the quick replies with interesting thoughts and views :)
Overall I really want to reward my players for being interested in making the city better, so not being able to say (without doubt about the correctness of the ruling) "Yes, my dear heroes, we can adjust the contract and let ol' Queen Abrogail sit there with egg on her face." was a bit annoying. But the ideas you have are very interesting.
They have used Rexus Victocora as a "back room administrator" of...Arthedain2024-01-13T23:00:35ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)Warped Savanthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1812024-01-13T02:30:58Z2024-01-13T02:26:46Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Arthedain wrote:</div><blockquote><p> 1) If Odexidie is to be believed (and we trust contract devils, after all), this would imply that the adjustment my players have in mind MIGHT be possible. But it would require an addendum approved by the Queen of Cheliax.
</p>
2) And if so, does that actually mean that even after the secession of Ravounel from Cheliax the Queen of Cheliax will still have power over how the people of Kintargo choose their Lord-Mayor?</p>
<p>What happens the next time (in 150 years) when the people of Kintargo forgets to have a Board of Governors select their Lord-Mayor. Will suddently the Chelish army be able to swoop in? Or am I missing an obvious infernal loophole in the Kintargo Contract? </blockquote><p>It's been a long time since I've ran Hell's Rebels but IIRC, the family lines that can ratify the mayor can't be changed without House Thrune making the change so adding families to it would be nearly impossible.
</p>
BUT! There's nothing saying that you can't add people to the board even though they don't contractually have to be part of the board. The entire board can vote, the entire board ratifies the new mayor and so long as someone from each of the 5 families is part of the board it should count. (I think; like I said, it's been awhile.)
<br />
Adding members would also make it harder for House Thrune to know the correct people that had to die, if House Thrune even REALIZES what's going on.
<br />
Keep in mind, "the cunning skill with which I sculpted the contract’s words remains unappreciated" meaning that no one else likely knows about the clause so House thrune probably doesn't know that a ratified lord-mayor can stop Cheliax from entering Ravounel.</p>
<p>For your 2nd question, yes, Cheliax would (probably) still be able to change the contract if they knew about it and if new terms could be negotiated. But the PCs have done a huge favour for Odexidie so they may be able to finagle a way to make it so that either the contract can't be changed or get it changed themselves so that Ravounel can have more control of itself.</p>
<p>In 150 if a properly ratified lord-mayor changes the rules and allows the army of Cheliax to enter Ravounel's borders, well, then there might be a chance for another group of Silver Ravens to step up and save the day.</p>Arthedain wrote:1) If Odexidie is to be believed (and we trust contract devils, after all), this would imply that the adjustment my players have in mind MIGHT be possible. But it would require an addendum approved by the Queen of Cheliax.
2) And if so, does that actually mean that even after the secession of Ravounel from Cheliax the Queen of Cheliax will still have power over how the people of Kintargo choose their Lord-Mayor?What happens the next time (in 150 years) when the people of...Warped Savant2024-01-13T02:26:46ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1802024-01-12T17:22:11Z2024-01-11T15:46:56Z<p>First off, kudos to your players for their democratic instincts. Pushing against the strictures of the reactionary institution, the laws establishing it, and the power underlying it, is always correct. </p>
<p>That said, there are problems with expanding the Board of Governors, of both principle and logistics. </p>
<p>First, <i>The Kintargo Contract</i>—the adventure, not the document, though I've integrated the provision into <a href="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#172" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">my exegesis of the document, <i>supra</i></a>—expressly provides that meetings of the Board of Governors must be plenary rather than by quorum. <i>See</i> <i>id.</i>, at •23 ("In order to officially ratify a lord-mayor of Kintargo, a majority (3 out of 5) vote <i>from a fully-staffed Board of Governors</i> must be recorded before no fewer than a dozen witnesses.") (emphasis added). That is, all members, rather than a majority of members, must be present to vote. The structure of the adventure strongly reinforces this notion. If the Board of Governors was permitted to meet by quorum, it would be possible to obtain the necessary majority by convening and obtaining the unanimous consent only of representatives of Houses Solstine, Mayhart, and Urvis, and to bar the counterrevolutionaries Melodia Delronge and Geoff Tanessen from attending. But this is not the case. "[T]he PCs <i>need</i> Melodia[ Delronge]'s cooperation only long enough to ratify Jilia[ Bainilus]'s appointment." <i>Id.</i>, at •20 (emphasis added); <i>see also</i>, <i>id.</i> ("With respect to the Kintargo Contract, this development [Carliss Mayhart's imprisonment making him unable to attend a meeting of the Board of Governors] is a disaster."). Geoff Tanessen likewise "need[s]... to join the Board of Governors." <i>Id.</i>, at •22. Unless the Kintargo Contract is amended, an expanded Board of Governors would still need to adhere to the plenary rule, making conventions of the Board all the more difficult with each member added. The plenary rule also means that expanding the Board does not accomplish what your players want it to accomplish: securing the Board from sabotage at a single point of failure. Whether the full plenum of the Board be five, fifteen, or fifty, one missing Governor still renders it unable to act. </p>
<p>Second, the provision for adding "a new [family] line" is pretty clearly intended to replace extinct lines rather than expanding the size of the Board, which moreover in various places appears limited to five members. <i>Id.</i>, at •18[1] ("<i>Had any of [the original five] family lines died out</i>, forming a valid Board of Governors would have required ratification of a new line by the Chelish government.") (emphasis added); <i>see also</i>, <i>id.</i>, at •7 (the "'Board of Governors'... is... defined as a group of five individuals"), 9 ("five family lines are required to reconvene the Board of Governors"), 16 ("five bloodlines [are] required to form the Board of Governors"... "'The Board of Governors is to consist of five people'"), 18 ("five family lines [are] required to reform the Board of Governors"). Further, as you recognize, naming a new line requires the assent of the Chelish government, which places a key institution of Ravounel outside the democratic control of its people and under the control of a foreign autocrat. </p>
<p>Third, the situation you fear, of "[w]hat happens the next time (in 150 years) when the people of Kintargo forgets to have a Board of Governors select their Lord-Mayor," is the situation prevailing at the start of the AP, and as you note, this gave the Chelish government a free hand in Ravounel.</p>
<p>I would propose that a solution to the problems of people forgetting that the Board of Governors exists, and of its undemocratic nature, would be to make all five Governor positions elective, from among all the members of the five families. Nowhere does <i>The Kintargo Contract</i> (the adventure or the document) provide that a Governor must be the head of his family, only a member. It is only circumstance and possibly tradition that "requires" the particular individuals enumerated in the adventure be the ones chosen to fill out the Board. The procedure for choosing a Governor from among each family is undefined, and can thus be determined by ordinary law rather than by amending the Kintargo Contract. That law can provide that the electorate for the Board of Governors be coextensive with the electorate for the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo/Domina of Ravounel (<i>e.g.</i>, all citizens of Kintargo, all citizens of Ravounel, or what have you), and that elections to the Board of Governors take place at the same time and in the same manner as elections of the Lord-Mayor/Domina. This electorate will presumably choose a slate of Governors they believe will ratify their choice of Lord-Mayor/Domina without trouble. And doing so at the same time as the Lord-Mayor/Domina election will reinforce the memory of the Board's existence. Finally, electing Governors means that the Board can be brought into the democratic governance of the country in whatever capacity rather than sidelined into a singular duty of ratifying the election of a Lord-Mayor/Domina. Its members might serve as judges, or on the Silver Council, or as government ministers.</p>
<p>A further security of the democracy and integrity of the Board might be to provide by law that each family must adopt a certain number of individuals to fill out its numbers. The most radical form of such a law might be that each family must adopt as members every citizen of Ravounel. Combined with the electoral law contemplated above, this makes every citizen of Ravounel a candidate for election to each of the five seats on the Board of Governors. And expanding each family to include every citizen of Ravounel would make it impossible for Cheliax to render any family extinct without killing every citizen of Ravounel—a thing which is functionally impossible. Not incidentally, depending on the prevailing inheritance law of Ravounel, such a law could also divide the five families' properties among the people. </p>
<p>[1] I'm citing this line preferentially to Odexidie's explanation because it is written in the objective voice of the author and not in the voice of a potentially unreliable character.</p>First off, kudos to your players for their democratic instincts. Pushing against the strictures of the reactionary institution, the laws establishing it, and the power underlying it, is always correct.
That said, there are problems with expanding the Board of Governors, of both principle and logistics.
First, The Kintargo Contract--the adventure, not the document, though I've integrated the provision into my exegesis of the document, supra--expressly provides that meetings of the Board of...zimmerwald19152024-01-11T15:46:56ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)Arthedainhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1792024-01-10T22:00:58Z2024-01-10T21:56:52Z<p>I'm currently in a situation where the legal intricacies of the Kintargo Contract is giving me some GM headaches.</p>
<p>Situation:
<br />
My heroic players have wrapped up part 5, and we just started part 6 and and are about to enter into the negotiations with Cheliax (Nereza).</p>
<p>They have for quite a while discussed the possibility of making Kintargo more democratic, and would have liked to increase the number of members in the Board of Governors from 5, to also including f.ex. 1-2 persons from each district of Kintargo.</p>
<p>One reason for this is that they are afraid that Queen Abrogail & Cheliax will set a price on the head of each board member and their families. If one or more are eliminated (covertly) it would lead to a need to get new members/families ratified in. Ref what Odexidie mentiones on pg.17 of the Kintargo Contract.</p>
<p>"Hopefully, you’ll be able to find descendants of all five lines, since if any of these lines have died out without a new line being ratified in, I’m afraid you’ll be out of luck without having Cheliax’s current queen issue an official addendum to the contract."</p>
<p>1) If Odexidie is to be believed (and we trust contract devils, after all), this would imply that the adjustment my players have in mind MIGHT be possible. But it would require an addendum approved by the Queen of Cheliax.
<br />
2) And if so, does that actually mean that even after the secession of Ravounel from Cheliax the Queen of Cheliax will still have power over how the people of Kintargo choose their Lord-Mayor?</p>
<p>What happens the next time (in 150 years) when the people of Kintargo forgets to have a Board of Governors select their Lord-Mayor. Will suddently the Chelish army be able to swoop in? Or am I missing an obvious infernal loophole in the Kintargo Contract?</p>I'm currently in a situation where the legal intricacies of the Kintargo Contract is giving me some GM headaches.
Situation:
My heroic players have wrapped up part 5, and we just started part 6 and and are about to enter into the negotiations with Cheliax (Nereza).
They have for quite a while discussed the possibility of making Kintargo more democratic, and would have liked to increase the number of members in the Board of Governors from 5, to also including f.ex. 1-2 persons from each...Arthedain2024-01-10T21:56:52ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1782023-07-28T13:21:01Z2023-07-28T13:01:23Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Beckett99 wrote:</div><blockquote> Would this also include things like honorary membership in things like national academic institutions? </blockquote><p>Ravounel does not have "national [read: public] academic institutions." Alabaster Academy is self-governing and self-funding through endowments and tuition, and has jealously guarded both privileges through some quite hard times in the name of maintaining academic freedom. Other institutions of learning we know about, like Lady Docur's and the parochial schools attached to the major temples (<i>e.g.</i>, of Shelyn, of Abadar) use a similar model. And of course there is no such thing as mandatory universal education - most education is done on an apprenticeship basis.
<p>In any event, the rights of Chelish subjects relative to Ravounel citizens in matters of access to Alabaster Academy are governed by the <a href="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslq&page=4?Breaking-the-Bones-of-Hell#171" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Treaty of Peace</a> between Ravounel and Cheliax. Nereza, naturally, pushes for complete equality as between these classes in terms of admission and tuition.</p>Beckett99 wrote:Would this also include things like honorary membership in things like national academic institutions?
Ravounel does not have "national [read: public] academic institutions." Alabaster Academy is self-governing and self-funding through endowments and tuition, and has jealously guarded both privileges through some quite hard times in the name of maintaining academic freedom. Other institutions of learning we know about, like Lady Docur's and the parochial schools attached to...zimmerwald19152023-07-28T13:01:23ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)Beckett99https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1772023-07-27T03:08:01Z2023-07-27T03:04:33Z<p>Would this also include things like honorary membership in things like national academic institutions?</p>Would this also include things like honorary membership in things like national academic institutions?Beckett992023-07-27T03:04:33ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)Beckett99https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1762023-07-24T00:21:01Z2023-07-24T00:19:13Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">zimmerwald1915 wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Beckett99 wrote:</div><blockquote>Does this mean families with foreign titles have to give up those titles to hold office in ravounel or are they just not allowed to aquire new ones?</blockquote>I'd say the former. There is a colorable argument to be made for the latter, but I wouldn't buy it. </blockquote><p>Well either way that is what the children who are not heirs are for.zimmerwald1915 wrote:Beckett99 wrote:Does this mean families with foreign titles have to give up those titles to hold office in ravounel or are they just not allowed to aquire new ones?
I'd say the former. There is a colorable argument to be made for the latter, but I wouldn't buy it. Well either way that is what the children who are not heirs are for.Beckett992023-07-24T00:19:13ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1752023-07-23T23:53:03Z2023-07-23T23:51:57Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Beckett99 wrote:</div><blockquote>Does this mean families with foreign titles have to give up those titles to hold office in ravounel or are they just not allowed to aquire new ones?</blockquote><p>I'd say the former. There is a colorable argument to be made for the latter, but I wouldn't buy it.Beckett99 wrote:Does this mean families with foreign titles have to give up those titles to hold office in ravounel or are they just not allowed to aquire new ones?
I'd say the former. There is a colorable argument to be made for the latter, but I wouldn't buy it.zimmerwald19152023-07-23T23:51:57ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)Beckett99https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1742023-07-23T23:49:07Z2023-07-23T23:46:19Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">zimmerwald1915 wrote:</div><blockquote><p> In a similar vein, a possible text of the agreement adhered to in furtherance of Mission 2: Uniting Ravounel (<i>see</i> <i>The Kintargo Contract</i>, at •27 - 28), that constitutes in essential form the state depicted in various Lost Omens texts (<i>e.g.</i>, the <i>World Guide</i>, <i>Legends</i>, <i>Tomorrow Must Burn</i>, <i>Firebrands</i>): </p>
<p>•• spoiler omitted ••... </blockquote><p>[Spoiler omitted]
<p>Does this mean families with foreign titles have to give up those titles to hold office in ravounel or are they just not allowed to aquire new ones?</p>zimmerwald1915 wrote:In a similar vein, a possible text of the agreement adhered to in furtherance of Mission 2: Uniting Ravounel (see The Kintargo Contract, at *27 - 28), that constitutes in essential form the state depicted in various Lost Omens texts (e.g., the World Guide, Legends, Tomorrow Must Burn, Firebrands):
** spoiler omitted **...
[Spoiler omitted] Does this mean families with foreign titles have to give up those titles to hold office in ravounel or are they just not allowed to...Beckett992023-07-23T23:46:19ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1732023-12-25T01:27:25Z2023-07-23T18:37:13Z<p>In a similar vein, a possible text of the agreement adhered to in furtherance of Mission 2: Uniting Ravounel (<i>see</i> <i>The Kintargo Contract</i>, at •27 - 28), that constitutes in essential form the state depicted in various Lost Omens texts (<i>e.g.</i>, the <i>World Guide</i>, <i>Legends</i>, <i>Tomorrow Must Burn</i>, <i>Firebrands</i>): </p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>In a similar vein, a possible text of the agreement adhered to in furtherance of Mission 2: Uniting Ravounel (see The Kintargo Contract, at *27 - 28), that constitutes in essential form the state depicted in various Lost Omens texts (e.g., the World Guide, Legends, Tomorrow Must Burn, Firebrands):
[Spoiler omitted]zimmerwald19152023-07-23T18:37:13ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1722023-12-25T01:25:02Z2023-07-23T16:34:19Z<p>Possible text of the Kintargo Contract, according to the terms laid out in Groves, <i>Parthfinder Adventure Path #101: The Kintargo Contract</i>, at •7 (2015), styled after Infernal Contract #9485784.3728:7845,9888495 reproduced in full at Jacobs, <i>et al.</i>, <i>Pathfinder Adventure Path: Curse of the Crimson Throne, Anniversary Edition</i>, at •376 (2016): </p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>Possible text of the Kintargo Contract, according to the terms laid out in Groves, Parthfinder Adventure Path #101: The Kintargo Contract, at *7 (2015), styled after Infernal Contract #9485784.3728:7845,9888495 reproduced in full at Jacobs, et al., Pathfinder Adventure Path: Curse of the Crimson Throne, Anniversary Edition, at *376 (2016):
[Spoiler omitted]zimmerwald19152023-07-23T16:34:19ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1712023-04-17T18:38:30Z2023-04-17T18:38:05Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ben Ehrets wrote:</div><blockquote><p> All NPC allies is a very long list. Those near their levels, not so much. Jackdaw and Shensen? They are on pretty good terms with Manticce Kaleekii in Vyre. I could see her coming up with something, but at what price?</p>
<p>PCs in Kintargo: diva, alchemist, and inquisitor.</p>
<p>In Charnelhome for sure: oracle and a weak npc</p>
<p>Awaiting character's saving throw: ranger.</p>
<p>Another factor is that I don't want a long Abyss adventure to undercut the last chapter of book 6's trip to hell. </blockquote><p>Have they done the Book 5 trip to Hell yet? "Let me summon your friends here in exchange for definitely no hidden consequences" might make a good roleplay opportunity.Ben Ehrets wrote:All NPC allies is a very long list. Those near their levels, not so much. Jackdaw and Shensen? They are on pretty good terms with Manticce Kaleekii in Vyre. I could see her coming up with something, but at what price?
PCs in Kintargo: diva, alchemist, and inquisitor.
In Charnelhome for sure: oracle and a weak npc
Awaiting character's saving throw: ranger.
Another factor is that I don't want a long Abyss adventure to undercut the last chapter of book 6's trip to hell.
...zimmerwald19152023-04-17T18:38:05ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)Ben Ehretshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1702023-04-16T19:15:49Z2023-04-16T19:15:49Z<p>All NPC allies is a very long list. Those near their levels, not so much. Jackdaw and Shensen? They are on pretty good terms with Manticce Kaleekii in Vyre. I could see her coming up with something, but at what price?</p>
<p>PCs in Kintargo: diva, alchemist, and inquisitor.</p>
<p>In Charnelhome for sure: oracle and a weak npc</p>
<p>Awaiting character's saving throw: ranger.</p>
<p>Another factor is that I don't want a long Abyss adventure to undercut the last chapter of book 6's trip to hell.</p>All NPC allies is a very long list. Those near their levels, not so much. Jackdaw and Shensen? They are on pretty good terms with Manticce Kaleekii in Vyre. I could see her coming up with something, but at what price?
PCs in Kintargo: diva, alchemist, and inquisitor.
In Charnelhome for sure: oracle and a weak npc
Awaiting character's saving throw: ranger.
Another factor is that I don't want a long Abyss adventure to undercut the last chapter of book 6's trip to hell.Ben Ehrets2023-04-16T19:15:49ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1692023-04-16T16:25:03Z2023-04-16T16:25:03Z<p>What characters are in Charnelhome, and what characters (including NPC allies) are left in Kintargo?</p>What characters are in Charnelhome, and what characters (including NPC allies) are left in Kintargo?zimmerwald19152023-04-16T16:25:03ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)Ben Ehretshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1682023-04-16T15:27:39Z2023-04-16T15:27:39Z<p>We finished Kintargo Contract with an excellent final battle against Mangvhune. Yay!</p>
<p>Then they fell for the trapped teleporter and several characters have gone to Shax's House of Pain. Ugh. Now what?</p>
<p>I feel a rescue/escape doing justice to Murder House would be a campaign unto itself. I don't think I want to give them an easy escape, but I don't want to say, welp, those characters are dead; roll up new characters for book 6 because you missed a willpower save. One of the players whose character missed his save wasn't even there to be in on the decision.</p>
<p>Did anyone else run into this? Or what would you have done if your group had?</p>We finished Kintargo Contract with an excellent final battle against Mangvhune. Yay!
Then they fell for the trapped teleporter and several characters have gone to Shax's House of Pain. Ugh. Now what?
I feel a rescue/escape doing justice to Murder House would be a campaign unto itself. I don't think I want to give them an easy escape, but I don't want to say, welp, those characters are dead; roll up new characters for book 6 because you missed a willpower save. One of the players whose...Ben Ehrets2023-04-16T15:27:39ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1672023-03-03T22:36:22Z2023-03-03T22:36:22Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">SatiricalBard wrote:</div><blockquote>My current interpretation is that a surface reading (ie. without deciphering the hidden condition) would only reveal that "Kintargo and all of Ravounel agree to be defended by House Thrune and the Church of Asmodeus", and that "a legally appointed lord-mayor may grant permission to House Thrune and its allies (including the Church of Asmodeus, and thus, by extension, Hell itself) permission to enter the region to conduct military operations"; ie. hiding the information about the Board of Governors and the consequences of military action without permission. </blockquote><p>I think this is reasonable. Remember, neither the introductory text and the text of the contract's statblock is meant to be revealed to the players, they are for GM eyes only. So the introductory text is a bit looser with its description than it might be if it was player-facing.SatiricalBard wrote:My current interpretation is that a surface reading (ie. without deciphering the hidden condition) would only reveal that "Kintargo and all of Ravounel agree to be defended by House Thrune and the Church of Asmodeus", and that "a legally appointed lord-mayor may grant permission to House Thrune and its allies (including the Church of Asmodeus, and thus, by extension, Hell itself) permission to enter the region to conduct military operations"; ie. hiding the information...zimmerwald19152023-03-03T22:36:22ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)SatiricalBardhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1662023-02-25T05:32:29Z2023-02-25T05:32:29Z<p>Hi, I'm hoping to get some community advice on the public vs the hidden parts of the Kintargo Contract itself. </p>
<p>On page 7 of Book 5, the explanatory text seems to suggest even an "initial read-through" reveals that Ravounel was never legally part of Cheliax, that "only" an officially appointed lord mayor may request military action from House Thrune/Hell, information about the Board of Governors being the legal body for appointing said lord mayor, and crucially, that an invasion by Chelish forces without proper permission would have dire ramifications for the entire Cheliax Covenant. </p>
<p>But the stat block on the same page lists the following under the Hidden Condition: (1) if a lord mayor is not officially ratified by the Board of Governors, no permission is needed [this is literally just a logical consequence of the clause about legal appointment of the lord mayor, IMHO, rather than something that would require explicit explanation], and (2) "if a properly ratified lord-mayor denies House Thrune permission to intercede, any direct military action against Kintargo or its associated holdings of Ravounel by Cheliax or the Church of Asmodeus terminates the Cheliax Covenant, removing Hell’s support of the nation of Cheliax."</p>
<p>So exactly what information is 'public' to anyone with a copy of the Kintargo Contract, and what exactly is 'hidden'? </p>
<p>My current interpretation is that a surface reading (ie. without deciphering the hidden condition) would only reveal that "Kintargo and all of Ravounel agree to be defended by House Thrune and the Church of Asmodeus", and that "a legally appointed lord-mayor may grant permission to House Thrune and its allies (including the Church of Asmodeus, and thus, by extension, Hell itself) permission to enter the region to conduct military operations"; ie. hiding the information about the Board of Governors and the consequences of military action without permission.</p>Hi, I'm hoping to get some community advice on the public vs the hidden parts of the Kintargo Contract itself.
On page 7 of Book 5, the explanatory text seems to suggest even an "initial read-through" reveals that Ravounel was never legally part of Cheliax, that "only" an officially appointed lord mayor may request military action from House Thrune/Hell, information about the Board of Governors being the legal body for appointing said lord mayor, and crucially, that an invasion by Chelish...SatiricalBard2023-02-25T05:32:29ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1652022-11-23T19:44:30Z2022-11-23T19:44:30Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ben Ehrets wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Right, right, Ravounel would not have come from Silver Ravens, but I'm wondering if Silver Ravens was chosen because of "Ravounel".</p>
<p>Like, hey, we're in Texas and we need a team name, how about...um...the Silver Texans! </blockquote><p>Oh, we're told that the "Silver Raven" name comes from the figurine of wondrous power.Ben Ehrets wrote:Right, right, Ravounel would not have come from Silver Ravens, but I'm wondering if Silver Ravens was chosen because of "Ravounel".
Like, hey, we're in Texas and we need a team name, how about...um...the Silver Texans!
Oh, we're told that the "Silver Raven" name comes from the figurine of wondrous power.zimmerwald19152022-11-23T19:44:30ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)Ben Ehretshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1642022-11-23T15:23:34Z2022-11-23T15:23:34Z<p>Right, right, Ravounel would not have come from Silver Ravens, but I'm wondering if Silver Ravens was chosen because of "Ravounel".</p>
<p>Like, hey, we're in Texas and we need a team name, how about...um...the Silver Texans!</p>Right, right, Ravounel would not have come from Silver Ravens, but I'm wondering if Silver Ravens was chosen because of "Ravounel".
Like, hey, we're in Texas and we need a team name, how about...um...the Silver Texans!Ben Ehrets2022-11-23T15:23:34ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1632022-11-23T14:51:42Z2022-11-23T14:51:42Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ben Ehrets wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Does the name Ravounel have any name/word origin connection to "Raven"?</p>
<p>I've looked around and have not seen any discussion of this. Is it just an odd coincidence? </blockquote><p>It's an odd coincidence. "Ravounel" as a name is far older than the Silver Ravens as a group, going back at least to the area's seizure by Taldor from the hobgoblins who were in power previously.Ben Ehrets wrote:Does the name Ravounel have any name/word origin connection to "Raven"?
I've looked around and have not seen any discussion of this. Is it just an odd coincidence?
It's an odd coincidence. "Ravounel" as a name is far older than the Silver Ravens as a group, going back at least to the area's seizure by Taldor from the hobgoblins who were in power previously.zimmerwald19152022-11-23T14:51:42ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)Ben Ehretshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1622022-11-21T19:30:29Z2022-11-21T19:30:29Z<p>Does the name Ravounel have any name/word origin connection to "Raven"?</p>
<p>I've looked around and have not seen any discussion of this. Is it just an odd coincidence?</p>Does the name Ravounel have any name/word origin connection to "Raven"?
I've looked around and have not seen any discussion of this. Is it just an odd coincidence?Ben Ehrets2022-11-21T19:30:29ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)Artofregicidehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1612021-01-12T20:24:45Z2021-01-12T20:24:45Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Lanathar wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">roguerouge wrote:</div><blockquote><p> At this level, it's about a fear of total party kill or a death where they can't bring them back. They have plenty of access to raise dead through the campaign. </p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Lanathar wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Has anyone had the professor successfully Death Attack a PC?
</p>
I have just noticed he has hide in plain sight which gives him an opportunity even if they have see invisibility or the lantern </p>
<p>It seems like it could be a tough pill to swallow but a perfectly legitimate tactic if they fail the perception and then the fortitude save (unlikely in my group’s case)</p>
<p>Has it happened and if so how did it go down? </blockquote></blockquote><p>One of the Death attacks would be True Death and potentially turn them into dust though...
<p>•</p>
<p>I am struggling with this high level stuff though. My players seem to be doing crazy things but I don't know if this is just that I don't have a frame of reference</p>
<p>I have just done the first half of the Arcadian Deep.
<br />
One player has a base 39 AC due to the Manta Ray cloak. No buff spells.</p>
<p>Low AC seems to be 34 so I am generally struggling.</p>
<p>The Kineticist just did 195 points of damage with 2 attacks (out of a possible 3). Albeit using up a lot of burn. But that still seems crazy to me and largely invalidates the fights.</p>
<p>I don't see the Drowning Devil doing anything. Save DCs are too low. The only thing going for it is Mirror Image will slow them down (and slow the game down)</p>
<p>Are all games at this level like this? Or has something gone a bit weird?</p>
<p>I am on record about wanting to stop this one at the end of book 4 but my players talked me into continuing. </blockquote><p>You should talk with your players, most likely. Are they having fun? Are you having fun? Some people love playing Pathfinder on "easy mode". It does speed up gameplay, and you could even cut extraneous encounters.
<p>If you and they want to play with at least some modicum of challenge, you'll need to either lower the PCs' strength (generally, I'd give them less XP and treasure by cutting encounters, not take existing stuff away) or increase the difficulty if the encounters (preferably by increasing CR without giving them even more XP).</p>
<p>You can accomplish this also by combining fights, adding nasty environmental effects, pre-buff, give the enemy a better working knowledge of the party, etc. </p>
<p>Some players balk at this, and it's a lot of work for you as GM.</p>
<p>But these are some options.</p>Lanathar wrote:roguerouge wrote:At this level, it's about a fear of total party kill or a death where they can't bring them back. They have plenty of access to raise dead through the campaign.
Lanathar wrote:Has anyone had the professor successfully Death Attack a PC?
I have just noticed he has hide in plain sight which gives him an opportunity even if they have see invisibility or the lantern It seems like it could be a tough pill to swallow but a perfectly legitimate tactic if they fail...Artofregicide2021-01-12T20:24:45ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)BornofHatehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1602021-01-12T20:24:54Z2020-12-06T05:51:28Z<p>So my group just went into hell to meet the Barrister Fellow.</p>
<p>Through deception and guile, they achieved the lofty goal of waiting in a guest chamber.</p>
<p>I decided to ask them to describe the half hour they wait, and they did to satisfying detail. I then asked them to describe their next half hour. They did. And so on... for several hours.</p>
<p>They made it 3 hours before their waiting turned into “Screw this! Let’s teleport outta the room and kill everything!”</p>
<p>Little do they know, they only had 9 hours left before Odexidie finished up his paperwork. XD</p>
<p>Lesson: There’s more than one way to get tortured in hell.</p>So my group just went into hell to meet the Barrister Fellow.
Through deception and guile, they achieved the lofty goal of waiting in a guest chamber.
I decided to ask them to describe the half hour they wait, and they did to satisfying detail. I then asked them to describe their next half hour. They did. And so on... for several hours.
They made it 3 hours before their waiting turned into “Screw this! Let’s teleport outta the room and kill everything!”
Little do they know, they only had...BornofHate2020-12-06T05:51:28Z