Can someone tell me why the spell Mental block was a good idea?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

101 to 149 of 149 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

Anzyr wrote:
Myrryr wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
It's really notable that a Psychic with the Faith discipline has both Wish and Miracle
I saw that myself and it was quite interesting, though I'm not sure why you'd use wish over miracle when a lot of the good uses of 'em are free on miracle's behalf but still have the 25k cost associated with wish.
Gotta get those +5 inherent stats.

Miracle can do that for the same cost as wish, but wish can't cast 8th lvl and under spells for free like Miracle can.

Sovereign Court

Anzyr wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Lord Van Hohenheim wrote:
So a level 2 Bard spell can perma kill a Lich without the whole hassle of hunting down the Lich's phylactery. Need to be sure to pick this up.
[mind-affecting]. Sorry.
Threnodic Spell.
I don't know how I forgot that given Heaven Oracle shenanigans. That's pretty awesome against Liches then. Hilarious to.

That's a 4th level spell slot for the bard... level 10 min... with a 2nd level spell DC... Will save... yeah... so that's not too OP IMO, as the lich will probably always save against this. But sure: while I maintain inspire courage I'd be hammering a lich or wizard with this every round. Hopefully you have a friendly witch cackling nearby to bring the lich's saves down...


andreww wrote:
Slithery D wrote:

Eh, I don't see it. Share which spells you think handle this?

Feats for plants and oozes, sure, but I don't see a lot of spells that do much. Your direct damage is limited to a few not very efficient force effects, disintegrate, explode head, and mind affecting stuff. There's almost no SR: no stuff, so the only way I see to handle a golem is to bait it to run laps inside an area of Etheric Shards. Oh, wait, that only does 1d8 slashing/piercing damage, so most DR will make the golem immune. Disintegrate some ground out from under it, maybe.

Golems are very tricky, you lack Glitterdust, Pits or Aqueous Orb and Black Tentacles isn't likely to hold them at all. You are pretty much stuck with buffing allies or summoning to deal with magic immune enemies.

General constructs, plants, oozes and other creatures which are immune to mind affecting you have some options for. Early on you are probably relying on something like Glue Seal, Magic Missile or Ear Piercing Scream. Later on Slow, Black Tentacles, Calcific Touch and Resilient Sphere all work well. At 10th you should probably pick up Plane Shift, its an emergency escape spell as well as a horribly effective removal spell, especially against constructs, plants and oozes which generally have terrible will saves.

You may also be able to make use of illusions depending on how your GM rules them. Things like Silent Image and the later spells are not mind affecting and do not allow SR.

*Haste* YOU GOT THIS GUYS! scampers off

If haste is all you contribute to a golem fight as a caster, you're pretty much always in the clear until Object Possession, Greater, when you simply take over the golem with a no save, no SR spell.

Scarab Sages

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Lord Van Hohenheim wrote:
So a level 2 Bard spell can perma kill a Lich without the whole hassle of hunting down the Lich's phylactery. Need to be sure to pick this up.
[mind-affecting]. Sorry.
Threnodic Spell.
I don't know how I forgot that given Heaven Oracle shenanigans. That's pretty awesome against Liches then. Hilarious to.
That's a 4th level spell slot for the bard... level 10 min... with a 2nd level spell DC... Will save... yeah... so that's not too OP IMO, as the lich will probably always save against this. But sure: while I maintain inspire courage I'd be hammering a lich or wizard with this every round. Hopefully you have a friendly witch cackling nearby to bring the lich's saves down...

Or even better, a cleric with the madness domain. Best save reducer in the game.


Imbicatus wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Lord Van Hohenheim wrote:
So a level 2 Bard spell can perma kill a Lich without the whole hassle of hunting down the Lich's phylactery. Need to be sure to pick this up.
[mind-affecting]. Sorry.
Threnodic Spell.
I don't know how I forgot that given Heaven Oracle shenanigans. That's pretty awesome against Liches then. Hilarious to.
That's a 4th level spell slot for the bard... level 10 min... with a 2nd level spell DC... Will save... yeah... so that's not too OP IMO, as the lich will probably always save against this. But sure: while I maintain inspire courage I'd be hammering a lich or wizard with this every round. Hopefully you have a friendly witch cackling nearby to bring the lich's saves down...
Or even better, a cleric with the madness domain. Best save reducer in the game.

But those Acrobatics and Escape Artist checks! And the feints! :-p


Serisan wrote:


If haste is all you contribute to a golem fight as a caster, you're pretty much always in the clear until Object Possession, Greater, when you simply take over the golem with a no save, no SR spell.

A Golem isn't an object any more than a Zombie is a humanoid. Used to be, sure.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Slithery D wrote:
Serisan wrote:


If haste is all you contribute to a golem fight as a caster, you're pretty much always in the clear until Object Possession, Greater, when you simply take over the golem with a no save, no SR spell.
A Golem isn't an object any more than a Zombie is a humanoid. Used to be, sure.

Object possession, Greater:

Target: unattended Gargantuan or smaller object (minimum Tiny) or construct


The only downside is having to make super-easy Spellcraft checks to control it. Oh well, 2 hours base duration when you get it at level 12, if you're picking it up right away.

Back to the Mental Block, there are more uses for Oneiric Horror, but it's really fun to shut down Barbarians if they fail the initial save on Mental Block. They go straight to fatigued when the rage ends. The problem is that they still get to move, run, etc. Oneiric Horror synergizes well with gnomes and makes them full round attack the illusion. That's kind of amazing.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Milo v3 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Spell List determines Tier 1, not being spontaneous. Sorcs are Tier 1, just lower then wizards.
Uhhh.... what???? That is the first time I've ever heard of anyone believing that. Tier 1 needs to be a tier 2 in power but able to swap out their power set for versatility.

Then you haven't been reading about Tier rankings very long.

Go read up on the original tier rankings. Sorcs are still Tier 1. The versatility of the spells IN the list is more important then being able to swap between them. A sorcerer with access to Gate, Shapechange and Wish has access to the 3 best 9th level spells, and arguably any 8th or lower level spell in the game.

Sorcs have always been Tier 1. Just lower then wizards. The only time you're going to see them Tier 2 is if they are throroughly non-optimized with horrible spell choices.

Wizards, and to a lesser degree clerics, and to an even lesser degree druids (wildshape brings up druids) have always been Tier 1 because of access to the spell list, and ability to prepare for any problem, given enough time.
The sorcs ability to spam useful spells more then justified their inclusion in Tier 1.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

Then you haven't been reading about Tier rankings very long.

Go read up on the original tier rankings. Sorcs are still Tier 1. The versatility of the spells IN the list is more important then being able to swap between them. A sorcerer with access to Gate, Shapechange and Wish has access to the 3 best 9th level spells, and arguably any 8th or lower level spell in the game.

Sorcs have always been Tier 1. Just lower then wizards. The only time you're going to see them Tier 2 is if they are throroughly non-optimized with horrible spell choices.

Wizards, and to a lesser degree clerics, and to an even lesser degree druids (wildshape brings up druids) have always been Tier 1 because of access to the spell list, and ability to prepare for any problem, given enough time.
The sorcs ability to spam useful spells more then justified their inclusion in Tier 1.

==Aelryinth

No.... You are misremembering.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Hmm.

I've seen it included in Tier 1 so much, I basically don't count it as Tier 2. Probably because of all the gear and options that allow them to swap spells and go spell fishing for spells like a preparer now.

I do know that an optimized Sorc is unconditionally Tier 1, but also remember that the original listing is based on the 3.5 sorc, which as a class (not spell list) was quite a bit worse then the Paizo class.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

Hmm.

I've seen it included in Tier 1 so much, I basically don't count it as Tier 2. Probably because of all the gear and options that allow them to swap spells and go spell fishing for spells like a preparer now.

I do know that an optimized Sorc is unconditionally Tier 1, but also remember that the original listing is based on the 3.5 sorc, which as a class (not spell list) was quite a bit worse then the Paizo class.

==Aelryinth

Even in pathfinder tier lists it usually ends up being tier 2, with razmiran and paragon surge bumping it up to tier 1.

It's a bit of a weird case. The sorcerer is one of those classes that can easily jump a tier based solely on a couple of cheap item choices. Even a non-optimized build can sit in tier 1 so long as it has a bunch of scrolls, a mnemonic vestment and a ring of spell knowledge. There isn't a massive jump in versatility for any other class that happens this easily.


Aelryinth wrote:

Hmm.

I've seen it included in Tier 1 so much, I basically don't count it as Tier 2. Probably because of all the gear and options that allow them to swap spells and go spell fishing for spells like a preparer now.

I do know that an optimized Sorc is unconditionally Tier 1, but also remember that the original listing is based on the 3.5 sorc, which as a class (not spell list) was quite a bit worse then the Paizo class.

==Aelryinth

Googling many tier lists now, the Only time sorcerer was tier one was when it said w/ Paragon Surge and w/ Ramazwhateve priest after it, and Sorcerer was then also listed below as tier 2.

Also paizo wizard is also better than the 3.5e wizard. But yes, through different optimzation levels one can act like a higher or lower tier. But, if you have enough optimization skill to have a tier 2 act as a tier 1, you likely can just as easily make a tier 1 act like a tier 0.

Sovereign Court

Imbicatus wrote:
Or even better, a cleric with the madness domain. Best save reducer in the game.

Wow, that is indeed awesomer. What would you apply it to, in the case of the lich? up skill checks, lower attack rolls and save?

Scarab Sages

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Or even better, a cleric with the madness domain. Best save reducer in the game.
Wow, that is indeed awesomer. What would you apply it to, in the case of the lich? up skill checks, lower attack rolls and save?

That's the usual debuff application, yes. Not much combat use for skills for the most part.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Milo v3 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Hmm.

I've seen it included in Tier 1 so much, I basically don't count it as Tier 2. Probably because of all the gear and options that allow them to swap spells and go spell fishing for spells like a preparer now.

I do know that an optimized Sorc is unconditionally Tier 1, but also remember that the original listing is based on the 3.5 sorc, which as a class (not spell list) was quite a bit worse then the Paizo class.

==Aelryinth

Googling many tier lists now, the Only time sorcerer was tier one was when it said w/ Paragon Surge and w/ Ramazwhateve priest after it, and Sorcerer was then also listed below as tier 2.

Also paizo wizard is also better than the 3.5e wizard. But yes, through different optimzation levels one can act like a higher or lower tier. But, if you have enough optimization skill to have a tier 2 act as a tier 1, you likely can just as easily make a tier 1 act like a tier 0.

The feat Spontaneous Preparation alone would make it Tier 1, since it expressly grants the right to prepare spells to a spontaneous caster.

Adding in the ring and vestment, + Paragon Surge fun, just becomes a faster means of doing the same thing.

When 1 feat or 1 spell allows you to pop Tiers, you shouldn't be on the lower Tier to begin with.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

The feat Spontaneous Preparation alone would make it Tier 1, since it expressly grants the right to prepare spells to a spontaneous caster.

Adding in the ring and vestment, + Paragon Surge fun, just becomes a faster means of doing the same thing.

When 1 feat or 1 spell allows you to pop Tiers, you shouldn't be on the lower Tier to begin with.

==Aelryinth

Link? I can't even find that feat on PFSRD....


Milo v3 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

The feat Spontaneous Preparation alone would make it Tier 1, since it expressly grants the right to prepare spells to a spontaneous caster.

Adding in the ring and vestment, + Paragon Surge fun, just becomes a faster means of doing the same thing.

When 1 feat or 1 spell allows you to pop Tiers, you shouldn't be on the lower Tier to begin with.

==Aelryinth

Link? I can't even find that feat on PFSRD....

It may be from OA; the OA stuff isn't on PFSRD yet.


It is not a feat in Occult Adventures.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bloodrealm wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

The feat Spontaneous Preparation alone would make it Tier 1, since it expressly grants the right to prepare spells to a spontaneous caster.

Adding in the ring and vestment, + Paragon Surge fun, just becomes a faster means of doing the same thing.

When 1 feat or 1 spell allows you to pop Tiers, you shouldn't be on the lower Tier to begin with.

==Aelryinth

Link? I can't even find that feat on PFSRD....
It may be from OA; the OA stuff isn't on PFSRD yet.

I think he might be referring to an obscure feat called Versatile Spontaneity from the Pathfinder Society Primer Player's Companion?


Luthorne wrote:
I think he might be referring to an obscure feat called Versatile Spontaneity from the Pathfinder Society Primer Player's Companion?

... that feat isn't even that powerful. It's just 1 prepared spell that takes up 1 higher level slot than normal. Spellsage wizard beats that out of the park without even trying.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Lord Van Hohenheim wrote:
So a level 2 Bard spell can perma kill a Lich without the whole hassle of hunting down the Lich's phylactery. Need to be sure to pick this up.
[mind-affecting]. Sorry.
Threnodic Spell.
I don't know how I forgot that given Heaven Oracle shenanigans. That's pretty awesome against Liches then. Hilarious to.
That's a 4th level spell slot for the bard... level 10 min... with a 2nd level spell DC... Will save... yeah... so that's not too OP IMO, as the lich will probably always save against this. But sure: while I maintain inspire courage I'd be hammering a lich or wizard with this every round. Hopefully you have a friendly witch cackling nearby to bring the lich's saves down...

The new broken cyclops themed oracle casts it as a 3rd level spell from a 5th level slot quickened with a lesser rod after using his standard action to reduce the lich's next saving throw by his oracle level, which is at least 10. The CR 12 stock bestiary 1 lich's will save modifier is +12. The oracle's charisma is at least 13 to cast the spell so the lich needs to roll at least an 12 to pass. Probably the oracle's charisma is rather higher. Possibly since he's a divination focused archetype and there are now divinations that are actually useful he even has spell focus. With a modest 22 charisma the lich needs to roll a 17.


Milo v3 wrote:
Luthorne wrote:
I think he might be referring to an obscure feat called Versatile Spontaneity from the Pathfinder Society Primer Player's Companion?
... that feat isn't even that powerful. It's just 1 prepared spell that takes up 1 higher level slot than normal.

And it can only be cast once per day. It's pretty much Mnemonic Vestment in feat form except much worse as it costs you a feat instead of 5k gold and also raises the spell level.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Luthorne wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
HiddenBoss wrote:

in the name of [add pathfinder god here you like]... the spell can block Mythic powers as well.

sure unlikely to come up but it sure of a hell of a way to by pass
Immortal (Su) tier 10

Immortal (Su) wrote:
At 9th tier, if you are killed, you return to life 24 hours later, regardless of the condition of your body or the means by which you were killed. When you return to life, you aren't treated as if you had rested, and don't regain the use of abilities that recharge with rest until you next rest. This ability doesn't apply if you're killed by a coup de grace or critical hit performed by either a mythic creature (or creature of even greater power) or a non-mythic creature wielding a weapon capable of bypassing epic damage reduction. At 10th tier, you can be killed only by a coup de grace or critical hit made with an artifact.
Dear god, I didn't even think about that. What the utter crap, Paizo? How does a second level spell shutting down demi-god immortality make ANY @#*&ing sense?!?
Mmm, I guess that depends on whether you view the ability as activating upon their demise, or activating 24 hours later...when the spell has certainly run out by, since it's only one round per level.

If you aren't spending an action on an ability, you aren't activating it.

Totally not a demigod killer.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

chaoseffect wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Luthorne wrote:
I think he might be referring to an obscure feat called Versatile Spontaneity from the Pathfinder Society Primer Player's Companion?
... that feat isn't even that powerful. It's just 1 prepared spell that takes up 1 higher level slot than normal.

And it can only be cast once per day. It's pretty much Mnemonic Vestment in feat form except much worse as it costs you a feat instead of 5k gold and also raises the spell level.

Yes, that's the feat. Can never remember the proper name off the top of my head, apologies.

Except it can be any spell, including ones you don't Know. In other words, have spellbook, prepare any spell you like/need. Not just metamagicked versions of the ones you DO know.

Add to the ring that lets you go fish for low level spells in SECONDS...and there's really nothing in terms of versatility the sorc can't do if they want to. And then Pages of Spell knowledge so that your spells on hand always exceed those of any wizard, as long as you have the money...

So it takes one feat to grab any spell you like. That's basically 90% of the reason why people think wizards are better then sorcs to begin with!...

===Aelryinth


1 person marked this as a favorite.

A rather speedy FAQ has clarified that the spell only applies to activated effects in any category, greatly reducing the amount of ugly math and the general brokenness of the spell. Much more focused on caster hate now.

The Exchange

Mental block wrote:
... The target loses all skill ranks, spells known, spells prepared, and activated feats, as well as its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. Each round at the end of the target’s turn, the target can attempt another Will save to end this effect.

Typically, when the rules refer to a spell being 'lost' it is expended, and has to be memorised again the next day. I'm sure that isn't the intention and the spells should be available again once the save is made. Hopefully that can also be cleared up as well as 'activated' in the errata to come.


QuidEst wrote:
A rather speedy FAQ has clarified that the spell only applies to activated effects in any category, greatly reducing the amount of ugly math and the general brokenness of the spell. Much more focused on caster hate now.

the obvious ruling that was pointed out first thing in this thread. Quibbling over a comma when the intent is clear is silly like that.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

A player just used this spell during a PFS session, and it's amazing how broken this is. It shuts down pretty much anything, and the vagueness in how it's described makes me doubt which feats it applies to. I have no concept what "activated feats" mean, and I'd either like some good examples, or a comprehensive list (though it'd need to be updated each time new feats came out), because no one at our table could determine whether Improved Disarm counted as "activated," because I judged it fell under the "expertise" category, yet it provides a static bonus. I understand Power Attack falls under this category, as you specifically need to state you're using it or not (effectively turning it "on"), and Iron Will not, because it's inherent to your character now. But would Combat Reflexes count, for example? It also "activates" whenever you provoke, so I guess so.

In all, I don't really like this spell, from a GM perspective. It really shuts off your enemies and makes them resort to basic melee attacks, as everything else is taken away from you, which makes combat way more boring.

(In this particular instance, a Mesmerist used it, with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, making the DC insanely high, along with the Mesmerist's debuff ability, making the DC literally impossible to beat for most enemies other than the final encounter.)

Shadow Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

The design parameters of Pathfinder state that if someone can think of an idea for any type of effect of ability, then there must be a spell written to achieve that effect / ability.

Meanwhile, martial options are limited to what can be achieved by sedentary unpaid interns in real life, without breaking any OSHA regulations.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Oh Crane Wing we hardly knew ye.

In all seriousness though, while that nerf was WAY out of line, I am inclined to believe them when they say the reasoning given was a joke. The real reason is that Paizo is bad at the mechanical side of encounter design and includes a lot of single bad guy encounters in PFS.

Scarab Sages

Quentin Coldwater wrote:

A player just used this spell during a PFS session, and it's amazing how broken this is. It shuts down pretty much anything, and the vagueness in how it's described makes me doubt which feats it applies to. I have no concept what "activated feats" mean, and I'd either like some good examples, or a comprehensive list (though it'd need to be updated each time new feats came out), because no one at our table could determine whether Improved Disarm counted as "activated," because I judged it fell under the "expertise" category, yet it provides a static bonus. I understand Power Attack falls under this category, as you specifically need to state you're using it or not (effectively turning it "on"), and Iron Will not, because it's inherent to your character now. But would Combat Reflexes count, for example? It also "activates" whenever you provoke, so I guess so.

In all, I don't really like this spell, from a GM perspective. It really shuts off your enemies and makes them resort to basic melee attacks, as everything else is taken away from you, which makes combat way more boring.

(In this particular instance, a Mesmerist used it, with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, making the DC insanely high, along with the Mesmerist's debuff ability, making the DC literally impossible to beat for most enemies other than the final encounter.)

Depending on the opponent, it may not hinder them at all. A fighter, barbarian, or any other full bab class or big monster will still murder you as quickly without access to feats as well as they could with it.

Where it really shines is as a anti-caster spell, but other spells such as silence and feeblemind already do that. Yes this is a lower level spell, but it's actually a lot better than a heavens oracle spamming color spray, or a witch with slumber hex.


Imbicatus wrote:
Quentin Coldwater wrote:

A player just used this spell during a PFS session, and it's amazing how broken this is. It shuts down pretty much anything, and the vagueness in how it's described makes me doubt which feats it applies to. I have no concept what "activated feats" mean, and I'd either like some good examples, or a comprehensive list (though it'd need to be updated each time new feats came out), because no one at our table could determine whether Improved Disarm counted as "activated," because I judged it fell under the "expertise" category, yet it provides a static bonus. I understand Power Attack falls under this category, as you specifically need to state you're using it or not (effectively turning it "on"), and Iron Will not, because it's inherent to your character now. But would Combat Reflexes count, for example? It also "activates" whenever you provoke, so I guess so.

In all, I don't really like this spell, from a GM perspective. It really shuts off your enemies and makes them resort to basic melee attacks, as everything else is taken away from you, which makes combat way more boring.

(In this particular instance, a Mesmerist used it, with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, making the DC insanely high, along with the Mesmerist's debuff ability, making the DC literally impossible to beat for most enemies other than the final encounter.)

Depending on the opponent, it may not hinder them at all. A fighter, barbarian, or any other full bab class or big monster will still murder you as quickly without access to feats as well as they could with it.

Where it really shines is as a anti-caster spell, but other spells such as silence and feeblemind already do that. Yes this is a lower level spell, but it's actually a lot better than a heavens oracle spamming color spray, or a witch with slumber hex.

Paladins would hate it...

Swashbucklers get hammered.

Monks and brawlers cry...

Hit a barn before rage and he cries...


Quentin Coldwater wrote:

A player just used this spell during a PFS session, and it's amazing how broken this is. It shuts down pretty much anything, and the vagueness in how it's described makes me doubt which feats it applies to. I have no concept what "activated feats" mean, and I'd either like some good examples, or a comprehensive list (though it'd need to be updated each time new feats came out), because no one at our table could determine whether Improved Disarm counted as "activated," because I judged it fell under the "expertise" category, yet it provides a static bonus. I understand Power Attack falls under this category, as you specifically need to state you're using it or not (effectively turning it "on"), and Iron Will not, because it's inherent to your character now. But would Combat Reflexes count, for example? It also "activates" whenever you provoke, so I guess so.

In all, I don't really like this spell, from a GM perspective. It really shuts off your enemies and makes them resort to basic melee attacks, as everything else is taken away from you, which makes combat way more boring.

(In this particular instance, a Mesmerist used it, with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, making the DC insanely high, along with the Mesmerist's debuff ability, making the DC literally impossible to beat for most enemies other than the final encounter.)

Improved Disarm- Not activated. You never activate it; it is always active. When you attempt a disarm, you don't provoke. (There is no "you can choose", "X times per day", "as X action you can", or anything like that.)

Power Attack- Activated, like you said. "You can choose" indicates it's activated.

Iron Will- Not activated, like you said. It's just modifying a stat.

Combat Reflexes- Not activated. It's increasing the number of attacks of opportunity you can make. In general, if it's got a "Normal:" section, it's modifying something and probably isn't activated.

You're giving it more power than it actually has.

Scarab Sages

If you are looking when it hits an archer, here is a list of feats that are/are not affected:

- Point Blank Shot - Not Affected, it is passive since you do not choose if this activates or not.
- Precise Shot - Not Affected, it is passive on preventing "in-combat" penalty
- Deadly Aim - Affected, you choose to have a reduction on Attack to increase Damage
- Rapid Shot - Affected, you can choose to get a penalty to Attack on a Full Attack to shoot an extra shot
- Manyshot - Unaffected, you can not choose to not shoot an extra shot in a Full Attack
- Snap Shot - Unaffected, you just gain a passive 5-feet reach with a ranged weapon
- Parting Shot - Affected, you have once per encounter to be able to shoot when withdrawing
- Vital Strike - Affected, you can choose to Vital Strike with the attack action

Hopefully my reasoning are correct


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Imbicatus wrote:
Quentin Coldwater wrote:

A player just used this spell during a PFS session, and it's amazing how broken this is. It shuts down pretty much anything, and the vagueness in how it's described makes me doubt which feats it applies to. I have no concept what "activated feats" mean, and I'd either like some good examples, or a comprehensive list (though it'd need to be updated each time new feats came out), because no one at our table could determine whether Improved Disarm counted as "activated," because I judged it fell under the "expertise" category, yet it provides a static bonus. I understand Power Attack falls under this category, as you specifically need to state you're using it or not (effectively turning it "on"), and Iron Will not, because it's inherent to your character now. But would Combat Reflexes count, for example? It also "activates" whenever you provoke, so I guess so.

In all, I don't really like this spell, from a GM perspective. It really shuts off your enemies and makes them resort to basic melee attacks, as everything else is taken away from you, which makes combat way more boring.

(In this particular instance, a Mesmerist used it, with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, making the DC insanely high, along with the Mesmerist's debuff ability, making the DC literally impossible to beat for most enemies other than the final encounter.)

Depending on the opponent, it may not hinder them at all. A fighter, barbarian, or any other full bab class or big monster will still murder you as quickly without access to feats as well as they could with it.

Where it really shines is as a anti-caster spell, but other spells such as silence and feeblemind already do that. Yes this is a lower level spell, but it's actually a lot better than a heavens oracle spamming color spray, or a witch with slumber hex.

I wouldn't compare it to feeblemind. Try Hideous laughter. Or Hold Person. Seriously ask yourself which one you would rather have in a variety of common situations. I suspect that Mental Block would come out on bottom unless you expect to be throwing will saves at non-humanoid spellcasters more than humanoids and non-spellcasters put together. The spell has some confusing rules interactions, but it's power level is pretty much spot on, or even a touch too weak (does it really need a save every round - wouldn't a single extra save be enough?).


Imbicatus wrote:
Where it really shines is as a anti-caster spell, but other spells such as silence and feeblemind already do that. Yes this is a lower level spell, but it's actually a lot better than a heavens oracle spamming color spray, or a witch with slumber hex.

I have no idea how you are drawing that conclusion. Both Color Spray and Slumber are essentially save-or-dies; fail the save and you are unconscious. Mental Block shuts off a lot of abilities, but it doesn't effect your actions and it has a save each round. Hold Person pretty much does the exact same thing except it kills actions too, plus makes you helpless. You say this is an anti-caster spell, but it is a will save; you would be lucky to make this stick for more than a single round versus a caster.

The spell is pretty much on par power level and if there's any reason it shouldn't have been printed it's the fact that successfully casting it will bring the game screeching to a halt as the DM combs over the target's statblock to figure out what he can and cannot do now.


The main difference I see in this spell is that Mental Block still drags on the fight, but makes the target horribly gimped. Slumber and Colour Spray end fights outright, but Mental Block still gives the opponent the illusion that they could do something. My Sorcerer last night had to resort to melee attacks, as all his other stuff was blocked. He's the only one left, but his tactics dictated he fights to the death. Combat dragged on for a turn without him actually impacting the fight. I'd rather have Slumber/Colour Spray knocking them out directly so they don't contribute to the fight anymore, that's one less thing I have to worry about. Now it's just overly mean to the GM and needlessly kicks certain classes in the balls when used against them.

Scarab Sages

chaoseffect wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Where it really shines is as a anti-caster spell, but other spells such as silence and feeblemind already do that. Yes this is a lower level spell, but it's actually a lot better than a heavens oracle spamming color spray, or a witch with slumber hex.

I have no idea how you are drawing that conclusion. Both Color Spray and Slumber are essentially save-or-dies; fail the save and you are unconscious. Mental Block shuts off a lot of abilities, but it doesn't effect your actions and it has a save each round. Hold Person pretty much does the exact same thing except it kills actions too, plus makes you helpless. You say this is an anti-caster spell, but it is a will save; you would be lucky to make this stick for more than a single round versus a caster.

The spell is pretty much on par power level and if there's any reason it shouldn't have been printed it's the fact that successfully casting it will bring the game screeching to a halt as the DM combs over the target's statblock to figure out what he can and cannot do now.

I meant from a GM perspective: It's a better power level than those effects because it is weaker. It shuts down some abilities without being a save or die.


Imbicatus wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Where it really shines is as a anti-caster spell, but other spells such as silence and feeblemind already do that. Yes this is a lower level spell, but it's actually a lot better than a heavens oracle spamming color spray, or a witch with slumber hex.

I have no idea how you are drawing that conclusion. Both Color Spray and Slumber are essentially save-or-dies; fail the save and you are unconscious. Mental Block shuts off a lot of abilities, but it doesn't effect your actions and it has a save each round. Hold Person pretty much does the exact same thing except it kills actions too, plus makes you helpless. You say this is an anti-caster spell, but it is a will save; you would be lucky to make this stick for more than a single round versus a caster.

The spell is pretty much on par power level and if there's any reason it shouldn't have been printed it's the fact that successfully casting it will bring the game screeching to a halt as the DM combs over the target's statblock to figure out what he can and cannot do now.

I meant from a GM perspective: It's a better power level than those effects because it is weaker. It shuts down some abilities without being a save or die.

Ah, the perils of using such an ambiguous and context dependent word as "better".

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:


Paladins would hate it...

Swashbucklers get hammered.

Monks and brawlers cry...

Hit a barn before rage and he cries...

Paladins would be no worse than they are against non-evil opponents after using all daily lay on hands uses. Besides, it's not like they would fail the save in the first place.

Swashbucklers are fine, Swashbuckler's finesse and slashing/fencing grace is passive. They lose the ability to parry, but they keep precise strike's passive damage boost.

Monk's and Brawler's key abilites are passive, so they keep unarmed strike damage and AC bonuses.

Barbarian without rage rounds is still a badass with a big weapon. 80% of hitting like a bus is still hitting like a truck.

Sovereign Court

Imbicatus wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Where it really shines is as a anti-caster spell, but other spells such as silence and feeblemind already do that. Yes this is a lower level spell, but it's actually a lot better than a heavens oracle spamming color spray, or a witch with slumber hex.
The spell is pretty much on par power level and if there's any reason it shouldn't have been printed it's the fact that successfully casting it will bring the game screeching to a halt as the DM combs over the target's statblock to figure out what he can and cannot do now.
I meant from a GM perspective: It's a better power level than those effects because it is weaker. It shuts down some abilities without being a save or die.

I am now wondering about the long-term effects of this spell, over the entire course of a campaign, as the usual 2nd-level "threat list" can be overcome by higher level spells:

Hold Person (2) --> Paralyzed/Helpless --> Counteracted by Freedom of Movement (4) or save to stop
Feeblemind (5) --> no spells, not helpless --> Counteracted by Heal (6)
Hideous Laughter (2) --> no actions, not helpless --> needs save to stop
Mental Block (2) --> no spells, not helpless --> needs save to stop

So while it benefits from a "save to stop" feature and the target is not helpless, I can see why a DM would be concerned with a short duration "feeblemind" effect that can basically be taken as a 2nd level spell... in essence this has the same effect as feeblemind during a battle.

Sovereign Court

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:


Mental Block (2) --> no spells, not helpless --> needs save to stop

Now, I keep saying it's a 2nd level spell, and that as a 2nd level "feeblemind" it's kinda broken...

...but I keep forgetting that this is a 1st level spell for the mesmerist, in which case it's utterly broken IMHO.


1-st level spell also means a not so great save DC

Scarab Sages

Entryhazard wrote:
1-st level spell also means a not so great save DC

True, but a Mesmerist will most likely have spell focus to boost it, and will have Hypnotic Stare to debuff the save.

Even still, I'd rather face a Mental Block spamming Mesmerist than a Color Spray spamming Heavens Oracle.


Heighten Spell is the one metamagic that Spontaneous Casters make far better use of than the rest. Mesmerist and Bard with Heighten can both freely make it as high a spell level as they can cast if they need it to.

Granted higher level spells filling the same role will likely be more powerful overall, but it is a useful trick to save spells-known for other things.


Imbicatus wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
1-st level spell also means a not so great save DC

True, but a Mesmerist will most likely have spell focus to boost it, and will have Hypnotic Stare to debuff the save.

Even still, I'd rather face a Mental Block spamming Mesmerist than a Color Spray spamming Heavens Oracle.

There is also the fact that 1st level SoLs are not new in the slightest. Seriously, is the Bard broken now? I would rather get hit by a 1st level Mental Block than a 1st level Hideous Laughter, regardless of class(unless it has anti-enchantment stuff that Mental Block bypasses).

Sovereign Court

Scent is both passive and active. A creature subject to this spell can still detect creatures within 30 feet by smell, but can't take move actions to determine direction or to track by smell.

That's just example 1 of probably hundreds of corner cases... DM love... diminishing!!!!

so... Paizo.... yeahhhhhhhhhh...


If the question "are you using [feat x or ability y]?" to a player makes sense, then this spell blocks it. If it doesn't make sense, then it doesn't. "Are you using power attack?" makes sense. "Are you using Greater Weapon Specialization?" doesn't.

101 to 149 of 149 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Can someone tell me why the spell Mental block was a good idea? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.