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I have two brothers, "Middle" and "Young" while I'm "Old". "Young" and I live WAY out of our home state. He and I would like to have better contact with "Middle", perhaps by playing Pathfinder play-by-post. "Middle" doesn't have Internet besides his iPhone paid by "Young" on a family account. "Middle" also likes to write.
One idea I am considering is running Pathfinder play-by-post, of interest to the three of us and we would keep in better contact. Unfortunately, "Middle" is Jehovah's Witness, and he claims his faith prevents him even from "playing pretend" with 1) Magic in any form, or 2) Violence.
It is not my interest to start a religion war, but I would appreciate help from someone who may actually *be* Jehovah's Witness, and who could clarify if my brother may be misunderstanding his church's teachings. It may be possible my brother misunderstands, or is simply taking his church's instructions further than they were intended to go. Again... no religion bashing here. I'm not JW, "Young" isn't JW, we are simply seeking a way to keep "Middle" spending time with us being entertained in a role-play game I happen to have rules for. My hope is that I can point him to something that clarifies his church's teaching in a way that allows him to more fully enjoy what Pathfinder has to offer.
Baring that, I have two considerations:
1) The Iron Gods game mechanics allowing for more Science Fiction type games. I would have to cut all appearances of magic for advanced technology as presented in those supplemental books and use the Game Mastery Guide's advice on a low (no) magic level campaign.
2) I would also invoke some equivalent of the League of Peoples series by James Alan Gardner. Violence against a sentient being is strictly forbidden.
Ideas? Suggestions?
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I have two brothers, "Middle" and "Young" while I'm "Old". "Young" and I live WAY out of our home state. He and I would like to have better contact with "Middle", perhaps by playing Pathfinder play-by-post. "Middle" doesn't have Internet besides his iPhone paid by "Young" on a family account. "Middle" also likes to write.
One idea I am considering is running Pathfinder play-by-post, of interest to the three of us and we would keep in better contact. Unfortunately, "Middle" is Jehovah's Witness, and he claims his faith prevents him even from "playing pretend" with 1) Magic in any form, or 2) Violence.
It is not my interest to start a religion war, but I would appreciate help from someone who may actually *be* Jehovah's Witness, and who could clarify if my brother may be misunderstanding his church's teachings. It may be possible my brother misunderstands, or is simply taking his church's instructions further than they were intended to go. Again... no religion bashing here. I'm not JW, "Young" isn't JW, we are simply seeking a way to keep "Middle" spending time with us being entertained in a role-play game I happen to have rules for. My hope is that I can point him to something that clarifies his church's teaching in a way that allows him to more fully enjoy what Pathfinder has to offer.
Baring that, I have two considerations:
1) The Iron Gods game mechanics allowing for more Science Fiction type games. I would have to cut all appearances of magic for advanced technology as presented in those supplemental books and use the Game Mastery Guide's advice on a low (no) magic level campaign.
2) I would also invoke some equivalent of the League of Peoples series by James Alan Gardner. Violence against a sentient being is strictly forbidden.
Ideas? Suggestions?
More than a few ultra-religious groups are like that. Unfortunately, there isn't really much you can do about it.
I understand that JWs are generally some of the more-benign people out there, but once they have it in their head that "God doesn't like X" it's very hard to convince them otherwise.
You CAN try and mash up something to make it "sci-fi", but even then I've heard of some real annoying nightmares where "sci-fi" can eek into the realm of "magic" and be a no-no for groups like that.
The other irony is that non-violence not only isn't going to happen in this game, or really any other action-adventure game out there, but the Bible is just overflowing with violence.
I'm a Buddhist, so I can understand the desire for non-violent conflict, but this is fiction - there isn't anything wrong with pretending violence, and study after study has even shown that violence in video games and tabletops games is cathartic and actually DECREASES the chances of participants actually committing violent acts.
Honestly, I'd just leave him be - play the game as it is, and let that be the end of it; if he has hang-ups about it and refuses to play, then he'll just have to come to terms with the fact that his lifestyle is cutting him off from having fun with friends and family.
It's one thing to make sure you have Kosher options for a devout Jewish friend at a dinner/party (it's very easy to, actually), but it's something else entirely to bend over backwards and re-write a massive campaign setting because someone's faith can't differentiate between fiction and reality, even IF the person in question is a relation.
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While I certainly don't want to get into scripture and how it relates to church teaching, I believe he is correctly relating the JW teaching. I have experienced a nearly identical situation in the form of a confrontation from the pastor and elders of a church I used to attend. They explained how participating in role-playing games was not compatible with the church's doctrine because of the violence and magic, and that such participation precluded me from performing any service within the church, and at the time I was playing in the church band during services, and I could not participate in talking communion. There was no alternative, if I wanted to continue to serve in the church and take communion, I would have to give up gaming.
There was no rational explanation as to why this pretending that involved violence and magic was bad, or conversely how it was ok for Anthony Hopkins to pretend to be a serial killer/cannibal, or Nicole Williamson to pretend to be Merlin, but not ok for me to pretend to be an elven hero on Friday nights.
Unfortunately attempts to get him involved in a game may simply be seen as tempting him to sin. That could just cause a rift between you as he may think you don't respect his beliefs. From my own experiences, I would suggest you find a different activity that all of you can enjoy.
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I will also say this - if there is an omniscient God like Christianity and Islam attest (Judaism does NOT believe that God is perfect, actually), then Ridley Scott and William Monahan have probably the best understanding of Him that I've ever seen, and it's summed up in one line from Kingdom of Heaven:
"God will understand. And if he doesn't, then He is not God, and we have nothing to fear."
If God exists I can't see him having such a stick up his holy arse about play-acting magic - in fact, I'm fairly certain Jesus would be rollin' the d20s with the best of 'em.
I will also say this - if there is an omniscient God like Christianity and Islam attest (Judaism does NOT believe that God is perfect, actually), then Ridley Scott and William Monahan have probably the best understanding of Him that I've ever seen, and it's summed up in one line from Kingdom of Heaven:
"God will understand. And if he doesn't, then He is not God, and we have nothing to fear."
If God exists I can't see him having such a stick up his holy arse about play-acting magic - in fact, I'm fairly certain Jesus would be rollin' the d20s with the best of 'em.
Which doesn't really have much to do with religion, IME.
It's not "God wouldn't want me to" it's "My religion won't let me".
There's a subtle, but important difference there.
In the first case, you could make arguments for your case. "god doesn't say anything against it, and I don't think he'd have an issue. there's nothing inherently wrong with pretend". You could attempt to sway the person.
In the latter case, any attempts to sway the person bring your hobby in conflict with his ideals. To accept one, he must reject the other.
It's tiresome, to be polite, but the latter is more often the case in these religious "conflicts", and really all you're going to do is push the guy further away rather than bringing him closer lest he be tempted by your sinful dice rolling.
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Religion AND family?
Nope. Your standard issue 10 foot pole does not cover this.
This is a haunt. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 gp, do not attempt to resolve the situation just RUN
Religion AND family?
Nope. Your standard issue 10 foot pole does not cover this.
This is a haunt. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 gp, do not attempt to resolve the situation just RUN
don't forget to leave your clubs at the door.
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Perhaps the solution is an entirely different game? Some kind of modern day detective thing? Sci fi world exploration, pc vs environment conflict? I would stay away from his religious objections, in my experience it will only lead to hurt feelings, or worse, if you push the issue or try to change his view.
Your middle brother needs to move out of the cult compound and experience the world for himself.
That said, for constructive advice....I like your idea of PBP RPGs. But, given his reservations - and you need to meet him where he is, not where you think he ought to be - Dungeons & Dragons, in any form, is not the game for you. My mind immediately goes to Little Fears or Dogs in the Vineyard, but something like Blue Planet is more straightforward.
Perhaps the solution is an entirely different game? Some kind of modern day detective thing? Sci fi world exploration, pc vs environment conflict? I would stay away from his religious objections, in my experience it will only lead to hurt feelings, or worse, if you push the issue or try to change his view.
To be fair, a Jehovah's Witness' religious objections are "fun" and "not dying", so I'm pretty sure there's no escape from that.
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I agree with much of the sentiment expressed here. Yes, the Bible is rife with violence. Yet the point for me was to explore anything I may have missed. Some both inside and outside of our family believe Asperger's Syndrome is involved, which adds to the complexity and layering of working with "Middle" on positive, constructive social activities.
I'm already GM'ing RotRL for a very happy group, but I'm sinking huge gobs of time on it to make it the best experience I can. Making an entirely new campaign from scratch without the experience to back me or much to guide me while keeping the RotRL campaign going... that is quite a bit to juggle.
If I didn't live on the West Coast from where he lives in the Great Lakes area, I could just drop in on him and see how he is doing. If he had things together to have Internet on his PC, we could play Civilization in a "peaceful" mode, I think. But I want to at least explore what options I can.
Dad died last Monday night, and he did quite a bit to help "Middle" along. Now "Young" and I need to carry that forward. Thank you for the honest evaluation and some ideas to work from. If I could just walk away, I would. And I may yet have to, but it doesn't come without an emotional cost.
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I am an Orthodox Christian and have happily enjoyed role playing games, heavy metal and other things most would be "shocked" to learn that an Orthodox Christian is "allowed" to enjoy.
Please do not openly bash someone's religion because you happen to disagree with it. This guy's brother is in a church that obviously will not allow their members to play RPGs of essentially any stripe. There is no reason to deride them. I personally find it silly but that's up to the brother to judge for himself.
To the OP: you will not find a way around this problem. All RPGs have some level of violence in them even if you run a setting that has no magic and just technology. You have my sympathy and prayers. My only sibling is my younger brother who is an untreated Asperger's Syndrome autistic. He's really into comic books so we at least have that thing in common to bond over.
I would check out the Leverage RPG and see if it is your speed. No magic and you can play completely nonviolent characters who get into big time robin hood capers.
Another option would be the Doctor Who RPG and pick up one of the specific doctor sourcebooks for non violent pre-thought out adventure ideas.
Even if you stick with Pathfinder RPG for the rule system (plucky NPC class expert PCs), you could pick up on stuff from these for plot or tack on systems for the types of adventures you want to run.
Personally I don't think Pathfinder works without magic, violence and pretend deities. The good news is that there are tons of other RPGs around that you can look at, and there are quite a few that don't have magic or violence in them. I would look at some other games, maybe FATE or something similar.
It has been my experience that a lot of religious group objections to RPGs are tightly focused on D&D. As others have suggested, try another RPG with him and see if his objection to violence is compartmentalized around D&D... a superhero RPG, for example. They're definitely violent (in a comic-booky way) but, depending on his response, you may get a little more insight into the nature of his objection to violence and how broad or narrow it may be.
Depending on the writing, I think it could be done. Taking the magic out would be easy enough but writing a story for multiple people with no combat could be tough. Im Thinking lots of intrigue and political strife but... I guess I'd ask him what he watches/does for entertainment and try to draw ideas for the game from there.
Personally I don't think Pathfinder works without magic, violence and pretend deities. The good news is that there are tons of other RPGs around that you can look at, and there are quite a few that don't have magic or violence in them. I would look at some other games, maybe FATE or something similar.
The Deities thing is fine; you can use Saints or what have you as the various Patrons to assign Domains to, or you can just go with a singular Deity.
You can also play the game quite expertly with just Divine classes for magic users (with Arcane potentially being the "enemies" if you're so inclined), or with little-to-no Magic at all.
The violence thing, though... Action-Adventure stories, especially of the medieval/renaissance-esque variety like Pathfinder, go hand-in-hand with combat and violence of some form or another.
And since Jehovah's Witnesses don't ascribe to the Saints that Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy do, and not even the 12-Apostles-as-Saints that Lutheranism does, you're pretty-much stuck with YHWH providing all the magic to Divine casters... and even THEN, with God Himself granting "magic", you're probably going to be hard-pressed to have a JW not be freaked out by the game.
You can use the Pathfinder system to play a Medieval Merchant-style game, sure (my group uses Bargaining, Contacts and other merchant-style tropes extensively - you can blame/thank Wolf & Spice for that), but I feel like other systems would probably work better if that's ALL you'd be doing (since, while the PF system is good for things like that, it's not the FOCUS of PF, it isn't quite as extensive as it could be).
And you're CERTAINLY not going to be playing Iron Gods that way - you'd have to pretty much come up with an entirely-new campaign for that.
Huh. Odd. A couple Jehovah's Witnesses in my home town are actually responsible for getting me into gaming with MTG.
My Jewish best friend also loves eating "Chesapeake" burgers - a bacon cheeseburger with lump crab on top - on Saturdays.
He calls it "the best way to make [his] Rabbi cry."
You'll find lots of people who don't follow the exact letter of the law of their religion everywhere, in every faith, because normally those laws they break make very little sense in a modern, enlightened context.
I had a buddy drop out of gaming because his wife worked for a religious school. She risked her job if anybody found out. Sadly, I don't think there's a solution to that.
I would check out the Leverage RPG and see if it is your speed. No magic and you can play completely nonviolent characters who get into big time robin hood capers.
Another option would be the Doctor Who RPG and pick up one of the specific doctor sourcebooks for non violent pre-thought out adventure ideas.
Even if you stick with Pathfinder RPG for the rule system (plucky NPC class expert PCs), you could pick up on stuff from these for plot or tack on systems for the types of adventures you want to run.
Well, Leverage is about lying and stealing. Often with good intentions, but it may still be a problems. And other people may try to use violence on you. Not being able to defend yourself at all is a serious limitation.
Huh. Odd. A couple Jehovah's Witnesses in my home town are actually responsible for getting me into gaming with MTG.
Which goes to show that different people within the same church will respond differently.
Again, thank you for further thoughts on the topic. I am very distinctly opposed to his religion, but fighting over it would accomplish ZERO, and the main point is "how do we keep interacting on a weekly basis over something the three of us mutually enjoy, so if one of us is missing ("Middle"), the other two of us can start making phone calls and finding out what happened from half a continent away."
Another system can likely do the job better on having to work without magic or violence, but as I explained to "Middle", drama tends to hang on "bad things happening", and it is much easier manage violence between people for drama than earthquakes or hurricanes. Those tend to flatten things pretty decisively, and the drama is finished all too quickly.
It may be one where I recommend "Middle" look at one of the systems suggested here, and *HE* be the GM and run it for the rest of us.
Some days all options suck. :(
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I will also say this - if there is an omniscient God like Christianity and Islam attest (Judaism does NOT believe that God is perfect, actually),Judaism does however believe that God is beyond criticism. Jews also don't hold truck with the Christian idea of splitting him into three parts. (in beliefs, Jews and Muslims have a lot more in common than either does with Christianity, although the Muslims do acknowledge Jesus as a Prophet.
Well, yes, but that just goes to show that Judaism is an ancient religion: YHWH is far from infallible, but is also far, far wiser and closer to perfection than humans. That's a commonality shared with almost all ancient faiths.
The indivisible thing is also somewhat similar, although most indivisible deities are part of a truly polytheistic faith (which is one of several clues that lead people to believe that Judaism originally began as a polytheistic faith, but then became inspired by Zoroastrianism during their exile in Babylon following the Persian conquest).
Egyptian deities, for instance, are actually much more like Hindu deities, in that they are many yet all simply aspects of one deity, and thus can exist in multiple planes at once (thus how Horus could be both god and mortal simultaneously, and how the Pharaoh could be Horus in life but Osiris in death).
So my friend once tried to get his buddhist/pacifist nut in to gaming. He successfully ran a complete diplomacy game using king maker rules. He would "Threaten" the players with war but always gave them a chance to fix it. I'm not 100% Certain if you could get rid of magic, but you can certainly run a pathfinder game without violence.
See, KINGMAKER makes sense.
But then again, Kingmaker is so radically different than normal Pathfinder that you may as well call it a different game entirely.
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I can't help you with the JW thing but perhaps a different solution would be to play a non violent / non magic rpg. I'm sure there are many other alternatives but one option would be the Drama System as defined in Hillfolk.
Edit: this system is built to exploit the drama inherent in human interactions. There may or may not be any external violence. It is very much built to emulate drama as seen in movies and TV shows, including shows where absolutely nothing violent occurs beyond harsh language.
Given your family's preferences, Pathfinder may not be the ideal system for your planned game. I recall a discussion among Christian gamers, who felt that more realistic, down-to-earth rules allowed games to more closely reflect Christian ethics. Pathfinder descends from D&D, a game originally about killing things and taking their stuff. Realistic rules make combat perilous, encouraging less-violent solutions.
If you do want to stay with Pathfinder, you might want to consider Green Ronin's Testament: Roleplaying in the Biblical Era. Written for 3E D&D, it provides rules for setting a game in several Biblical periods. It could easily be adapted to Pathfinder.
Or... really, just play Settlers of Catan.
Settlers may lead to REAL violence, but at least no fictional characters will be hurt!
Or find some kind of other server-based game so you can chat. I don't know if there are any card servers out there that are any good, but a bit of Hearts or, considering he's from the Great Lakes area, Euchre or Sheepshead will do the trick.
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I can understand "middle"'s concerns. While I am not a part of the Jehovah's Witness church (I am quite happy with my membership in the LDS church, although as anyone may say I am quite far from perfect!), I can -kinda- see the hesitation towards magic and violence. Speaking from experience, it's not fun to be pressured into doing something that you don't believe is right. It's also worth noting that Jehovah's Witnesses tend to have a harsh view on things. Involvement in role playing with magic and whatnot could mean disciplinary action (although such action would be out of love I hope), and maybe even him losing membership in his church. I must also say that I base this on former members of said church.
It's unfortunate, but it happens.
It has been my experience that a lot of religious group objections to RPGs are tightly focused on D&D.Because it was only D&D that got any real publicity during the 80's and the urge to crusade against it has dropped in priority, compared to bigger ticket items such as taking down Planned Parenthood, and putting those LGBTers back in the closet.
D&D was also the new kid on the block as far as game genres go, and by FAR the biggest name in TRPGs.
So when some socially-stunted idiot went missing from college (he turned up a few weeks/months later, alive and well - he just wandered off), the cops searched his room and found these terrifying books called "DUNGEONS & DRAGONS", and since Satanism was already on the rise, they put 2 and 2 together and said, "D&D = SATAN WORSHIP!"
Y'know... despite even a cursory glance at the books would reveal that, not only were the illustrations comically awful (like, middle-schooler levels of bad, and I'm sorry, the Prince of Evil would spring for substantially-better artwork in his books; Lucifer would be getting Frank Frazetta, not "Timmy my neighbor's nephew"), but you're not WORSHIPPING demons, you're KILLING them. In large swaths. Usually as a PALADIN or some other manner of Warrior of Justice.
Fast forward 20-25 years, and fantasy RPGs are everyone in video games, Arnold Schwarzenegger screaming "CROOOM!" in Conan the Barbarian is a classic movie moment, Harry Potter has completely taken over the literary world, and The Lord of the Rings has become a film franchise to rival Star Wars.
Everyone is so familiar with the whole sword-and-sorcery shtick that now you're considered a backwater freak if you DO think that D&D is "devil-worship".
It's all a matter of how much the general populace is used to a subject - the more-ubiquitous, the less people can demonize it.
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So... let's look at other gaming systems, one that don't have magic items, violence and magical monsters built into the whole challenge rating system.
I'm going to recommend GURPS. It's point-buy, and you can make a realistic mystery or adventure campaign work with no magic or violence.
Here are some plots you can use:
- Rescue missions;
- Explore this area and find the lost heirloom / missing relic;
- Survive in the wilderness;
- Conduct an investigation to save someone falsely accused of a crime he did not do.
You can even set this in your favorite historical setting. GURPS has tons of books with background ideas for different settings. Create an investigative team and go forward.
It may be one where I recommend "Middle" look at one of the systems suggested here, and *HE* be the GM and run it for the rest of us.
This is the best, smartest idea. If you give him the choice, he'll be able to choose an activity he'll feel comfortable with, giving you the best opportunity to stay in touch with him and share an experience, even if it's a play by post one.
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Romaq,
I was a JW for 20 years, so I'm speaking from experience.
Your brother is repeating the instructions he's received from the elders exactly. There are many verses in the Bible that call for the death of witches and specifically instruct to avoid calling on the spirit world, mediums, and magic.
The JW's take it quite strictly that magic in all its forms is of Satanic power and using it is deliberately calling on Satan. You and I might argue that "it's just a game" but if you really felt magic was satanic you wouldn't even play with the idea.
The same message is given for violence.
There are some JW's who aren't very "strong in the truth" as they would put it and don't see any harm in a game.
There are plenty of good suggestions here for finding a way to play a game without bringing in the magic or violence. If you want to talk to your brother about his beliefs though, it might help you to understand more about where he is coming from and the better ways to get him to think about them. I cannot say strongly enough, DO NOT try to argue the point. JW's are trained to view adversity and conflict as confirmation they are correct. So all you would accomplish is proving his point to him.
If you want to know some talking points to get him thinking feel free to message me. It's not a lost cause to try and reach him. I would recommend you do. Having been in the JW religion I can say it is a dangerous cult. Far more than any magic or violence in a game could be.
If you want to DM in Pathfinder without magic and violence I'd suggest also checking out a couple d20 sourcebooks from Atlast Games. Dynasties and Demagogues, Crime and Punishment, and Love and War for support for things like diplomacy challenges, law enforcement, and chivalry intrigues.
Perhaps Green Ronin's Medieval Player's Manual for general nonmagical medieval stuff.
Sounds like you need to mashup ponyfinder with mutants and masterminds to get the ultimate non-violent non-magic system. Then probably play an adventure published for ponyfinder that you give the "sci-fi" make over with M&M rules.
Thank you, Chrosis. I already suspected what you confirmed.
The depressing problem I'm running into is THIS WEEK on my return from Indy (Yes, I was there "at" GenCon, but attending... I even saw Judy Bauer and got all "fan-girl" crazy in front of my brothers, so she actually MET "Middle" and "Young". anyway...) Yeah... this week I work no less than 54 hours and may work 65 hours.
My first obligation is to myself, doing things I need to do to keep myself sane and happy. My second obligation is to my wife and spending time together with our pets. My third obligation is to my Rise of the Runelords group. Some of the "me time" obligation is met filling the other two obligations, but reading through the material here and options provided suggest another time-sink for which I simply lack time and resources. And I'm very, very sure "autism spectrum" is a factor with "Middle". It isn't just and only "JW" instruction, it is that instruction tied in with "these people accept me despite my being different, and all my social everything is tied with them." Pot-shots at his religious group is roughly as moral as kicking puppies... HIS puppies. There is no win for me attempting to do so.
At this point, it really looks like I'm simply going to have to defer work on this to "Middle" for him to figure out what he wants to do and is willing to support.
I strongly suspect it will end up "us boys" just talking over things in a private forum and not worrying about it. If I can just get "Middle" to keep me informed on how he is doing and keep in touch at least once a week so I know he's still alive, that would meet what is critical to me.