the more the merrier! multiple familiars?


Rules Questions


animal companions and what not. i am under the impression you can have more then one familiar? more then one animal companion? having one of each makes sense if your a spell caster and a ranger/druid.


you can't have multiple familiars or animal companions. You can have an animal companion and a familiar.


Core Rulebook wrote:
If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion.
Core Rulebook wrote:
Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master’s level.

They stack together, though there are some archetypes that specifically let you split up your levels between multiple companions like the Pack Lord Druid.

Edit: Just for clarification, AC granting levels stack with other AC granting classes, Familiar granting stack with familiar granting. The two different types of buddies generally don't interact mechanically any more than two other random creatures would.


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Milo v3 wrote:
you can't have multiple familiars or animal companions. You can have an animal companion and a familiar.

There is no rule stating that that I know of. Merely that multiple class levels in classes that grant familiars stack to determine the special abilities of your familiar(s).

Core Rulebook - Familiars wrote:
Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level.

There is nothing that says that you cannot have multiple familiars. If an effect says that you get a familiar and the effect itself does not somehow restrict usage with other effects granting a familiar you now have two familiars.

Similarly, the arcanist exploit Familiar grants a familiar and stacks its abilities with any classes that also grant familiars but calls out a specific exception that restricts its usage alongside the bloodline development exploit and only the bloodline development exploit.

For example, RAW, if you have a Witch 3/Wizard 7 with Arcane Bond (Familiar) and your Witch's familiar, you have two familiars with 10th level abilities. Since neither the witch's familiar Ex ability nor the arcane bond Ex ability make any exceptions you get two familiars. If you then take a level of Arcanist and choose the Familiar exploit, you now have three familiars with 11th level abilities.

Meanwhile the feat Familiar Bond creates a specific exception that is not part of the normal rules and notes this exception in the "Special" clause of the feat which exists for noting additional unusual facts about the feat.

So if you want to show us your pokemans, you can do that.


Ashiel, go back and actually read the familiar granting abilities. Including the ones that you linked in your own post: every one of them is clear that you can only ever have one familiar.

Dark Archive

Beast master rangers can have multiple animal companions. Alternatively, You could just multiclass to get a familiar, animal companion and an eidolon. Don't forget to take leadership for that cohort and you're done. Your GM and your fellow players will hate you.

So hunter/summoner and then you'd have to spend feats on the familiar and the cohort.


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Gilarius wrote:
Ashiel, go back and actually read the familiar granting abilities. Including the ones that you linked in your own post: every one of them is clear that you can only ever have one familiar.

I think that's a lie, which I believe is also why you haven't bothered to cite your source.

Core Rulebook - Familiars wrote:

Familiars

A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid him in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal companion cannot also function as a familiar. [A special restriction]

A familiar grants special abilities to its master, as given on the table below. These special abilities apply only when the master and familiar are within 1 mile of each other.

Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level. [This says levels in classes that get familiars stack for the purpose of determining your familiar's abilities by level. It does not, however, restrict you to a single familiar or consolidate your familiars in any way.]

If a familiar is dismissed, lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 week later through a specialized ritual that costs 200 gp per wizard level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete.

Familiar Basics: Use the basic statistics for a creature of the familiar's kind, but with the following changes.

Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher.

Hit Points: The familiar has half the master's total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.

Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons.

Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar's kind.

Saving Throws: For each saving throw, use either the familiar's base save bonus (Fortitude +2, Reflex +2, Will +0) or the master's (as calculated from all his classes), whichever is better. The familiar uses its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn't share any of the other bonuses that the master might have on saves.

Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar's total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar's ability to use. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.

Familiar Ability Descriptions: All familiars have special abilities (or impart abilities to their masters) depending on the master's combined level in classes that grant familiars, as shown on the table below. The abilities are cumulative.

Natural Armor Adj.: The number noted here is in addition to the familiar's existing natural armor bonus.

Int: The familiar's Intelligence score.

Alertness (Ex): While a familiar is within arm's reach, the master gains the Alertness feat.

Improved Evasion (Ex): When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a familiar takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage even if the saving throw fails.

Share Spells: The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).

Empathic Link (Su): The master has an empathic link with his familiar to a 1 mile distance. The master can communicate empathically with the familiar, but cannot see through its eyes. Because of the link's limited nature, only general emotions can be shared. The master has the same connection to an item or place that his familiar does.

Deliver Touch Spells (Su): If the master is 3rd level or higher, a familiar can deliver touch spells for him. If the master and the familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master would. As usual, if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates.

Speak with Master (Ex): If the master is 5th level or higher, a familiar and the master can communicate verbally as if they were using a common language. Other creatures do not understand the communication without magical help.

Speak with Animals of Its Kind (Ex): If the master is 7th level or higher, a familiar can communicate with animals of approximately the same kind as itself (including dire varieties): bats with bats, cats with felines, hawks and owls and ravens with birds, lizards and snakes with reptiles, monkeys with other simians, rats with rodents, toads with amphibians, and weasels with ermines and minks. Such communication is limited by the Intelligence of the conversing creatures.

Spell Resistance (Ex): If the master is 11th level or higher, a familiar gains spell resistance equal to the master's level + 5. To affect the familiar with a spell, another spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the familiar's spell resistance.

Scry on Familiar (Sp): If the master is 13th level or higher, he may scry on his familiar (as if casting the scrying spell) once per day.
[End of familiar rules]

I realize that it might not be in good fashion but I usually reference the rules when answering questions about the rules. There is no innate restriction preventing you from having multiple familiars. Until you can cite one, I think perhaps you should should do some reading yourself.


I am currently posting from my phone, so copying and pasting is a bit tricky - since your previous post contained 2 of the critical rules links already, I decided to refer to them.

Take a look, read the last line of the 'special' section you quote for Familiar Bond. It says you cannot have a 2nd familiar. All the others either refer back to the wizard's arcane bond (which only allows one familiar) or state outright that you can only have one.


There is the possibility for your companions to have companions.


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Gilarius wrote:

I am currently posting from my phone, so copying and pasting is a bit tricky - since your previous post contained 2 of the critical rules links already, I decided to refer to them.

Take a look, read the last line of the 'special' section you quote for Familiar Bond. It says you cannot have a 2nd familiar. All the others either refer back to the wizard's arcane bond (which only allows one familiar) or state outright that you can only have one.

No, they don't. I linked to each of them for that very purpose AND showed the difference with te familiar bond feat. The limit to 1 familiar is called out in the special section of the feat which details things that are not normally part of the rules (which I also quoted).

RAW you can. Not that it's a problem because when was the last time you said "Oh god, here comes that caster with 4 familiars and 8th level spells!"?

RAW it's legal and there's not even a balance concern. Well, maybe for valet familiars but there's some diminishing returns on that.


Quote:
Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the witch’s level. If a witch possesses such levels, her familiar always uses the witch rules for familiars, not those provided by other classes, such as wizards or sorcerers with the arcane bloodline.

I suppose you're right in that it doesn't outright state that you combine your class levels and receive a single familiar, but I find it almost certain that such is the intent of the above sentences.

In the end, as always, it's up to your GM.

If this is for PFS, I really doubt you'll find many (if any) GMs who will allow you to have more than a single familiar.


I believe PFS has a limit of only one permanent controlled creature per character. So you can't even have a familiar and an animal companion.


I think you can have both a familiar and an animal companion in PFS. You might even be allowed to have multiple animal companions. You just can't bring more than one companion creature with you on a particular adventure.

Disregarding PFS for a moment, a PC can certainly have both an animal companion and a familiar. I'm not sure whether or not there are ways to have multiple familiars. There are several ways to have multiple animal companions, often through archetypes which explicitly allow it such as Huntmaster. I think it also might be legal for a character like a Cavalier multiclassed with Druid or Sylvan Sorcerer to have a Horse as a Mount and then take something else which isn't on the list for Mount as a separate Animal Companion, say an Ape.

With Horse Master and Boon Companion both the Horse and Ape could be fully progressed. I guess this could have some use even in PFS since some adventures might be better suited to one animal or the other.


Ashiel wrote:
Gilarius wrote:
Ashiel, go back and actually read the familiar granting abilities. Including the ones that you linked in your own post: every one of them is clear that you can only ever have one familiar.

I think that's a lie, which I believe is also why you haven't bothered to cite your source.

Core Rulebook - Familiars wrote:

Familiars

A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid him in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal companion cannot also function as a familiar. [A special restriction]

A familiar grants special abilities to its master, as given on the table below. These special abilities apply only when the master and familiar are within 1 mile of each other.

Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level. [This says levels in classes that get familiars stack for the purpose of determining your familiar's abilities by level. It does not, however, restrict you to a single familiar or consolidate your familiars in any way.]

If a familiar is dismissed, lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 week later through a specialized ritual that costs 200 gp per wizard level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete.

Familiar Basics: Use the basic statistics for a creature of the familiar's kind, but with the following changes.

Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher.

Hit Points: The familiar has half the master's total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.

Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all

...

Ashiel, I'm a little surprised by this stance. You're saying that, in the absence of a rule saying otherwise, then you are able to do something? As in, because the game grants you a familiar, but doesn't say you can't have multiple familiars, then that means you can have multiple familiars?

You realize, that this is the same logic behind the, "the rules don't say I can't take actions after death" nonsense right? You are arguing that, in the absence of the rules saying, "No" then the answer is yes.

The rules say that I can play a human, and even list abilities that humans have, but the rules don't say that all humans aren't born with the ability to shoot maximized, intensified, empowered, metero swarms at will either.

Remember, Pathfinder is a permissive system. It tells you what you "can do" not what you "can't do". The rules say you can have a familiar, but because it doesn't say you can have multiple familiars, I would have to say then that you cannot have multiple familiars.


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Not quite. The game gives you something (a familiar). The game does not say that you cannot have multiple familiars. Ergo, without some effect to cap the number of familiars you may collect, you may collect more.

The reasoning is akin to suggesting that because the game doesn't say that you can have more than one magic sword, you can't. Clearly this would be asinine, since if you acquire a magic sword in the game and there is nothing that says that you cannot have more than one magic sword, you should be able to have another magic sword, and another, and another, as long as you can continue to collect magic swords.

Similarly still, there's nothing that says that you cannot have multiple summoned monsters, so if you cast summon monster I twice, you have a pair of summon monster I spells active. There are specific game effects that tell you when something is limited (such as the summoner's special summon monster rule) because the game needs to give an effect to cancel out another effect giving you a thing. Without that, you simply get that thing.

I would suggest caution when dealing with the terminology. It's very easy to misuse the "the rules don't say I can't = bad logic" phrase because in its intended for a specific sort of logical fallacy.

The logical fallacy it's intended to circumvent is stuff like a player saying that their human PC flies 50 ft. into the air, and when questioned, remarks that the rules don't say that they cannot. Logical fallacy because the game is exception-based design.

However in this case, we have an effect granting us a thing (a familiar). That is to say the game says we get X. We now need something that says we cannot get additional X. Unless that second effect exists to create the exception to the first, we do in fact get it.


Ashiel, you have a point when discussing the class abilities that state that their levels stack (in my opinion, you are still wrong, but you can play your game how you wish). I don't agree with Tels where he is assuming that the game is 'permissive', since the game appears to sometimes be permissive and at other times is using exception-based design.

The way I see it works like this, using your previous example of a witch 3/wizard 7.

Witch grants a familiar; wizard grants a familiar. Each says that the levels in their class stacks with the other for determining the abilities of the familiar. Thus, you get a L10 familiar.

You say that this character gets 2 familiars, each at L10. I read it as saying that your already-existing familiar from the 1st class merely gets stronger as you take levels in the 2nd class.

Arcanist exploit uses the same language; the Sorceror Arcane Bloodline power says

Arcane Bond:
(Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard’s bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook). This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item

and the Familiar Bond feat states "You can never have more than one familiar."

That final sentence, even if you'd prefer to ignore it (see above posts), is pretty definite.


No it isn't, because it's in the special rules for the feat, which calls out any special mechanics not part of the norm.

There are also special concerns and considerations that become problematic if you do not keep them separate, such as special rules that some classes or abilities place on their versions of familiars (such as the witch having special mechanics and rules for her witch familiar).

In all cases you have a different named ability (different source) granting you a thing and unless they give an explicit declaration in the rules why they would not function as normal then they do and you get an additional familiar. This is not rocket science man. It's basic cause and effect / exception design.

The thing is, why all the resistance? Is someone really afraid of somebody multiclassing witch/wizard/arcanist and getting three familiars? I for one cannot see a problem with that barring (and only maybe) valet familiars. It seems like something mildly interesting and unique about a character that's making some extremely questionable multiclass choices.

EDIT: And yes, the sorcerer ability explicitly grants you the arcane bond ability as a wizard of your sorcerer level. It explicitly notes it as being the same ability with your sorcerer and wizard levels stacking. This is actually why the eldritch heritage (arcane) exploit works because you can get a super familiar by making your effective wizard levels far beyond your actual character level.

Arcane Bond, Familiar, Witch's Familiar, are all different abilities. At least one of them is a completely different type of ability (Su vs Ex).

Why the resistance? What's so hard to understand about this?


I am pretty sure you can have multiple familiars, but if you do the levels from different classes don't stack. For this reason, unless you couldn't for some reason (wizard with a figment familiar multiclassing into witch for example) you are better off having them stack.

I don't know of a specific ruling on this that addresses familiars, however the exact same situation was answered in a faq on animal companions.

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