Boosting Kineticist Damage


Advice

Silver Crusade

How can you boost its damage to remain useful at higher levels in these situations?

1. Ranged Blast
2. Kinetic Blade Full Attack
3. Kinetic Fist Full Attack
4. Flurry of Blasts


What kind of damage are you expecting at which levels?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You do know that damage does scale by level?


zanbato13 wrote:

How can you boost its damage to remain useful at higher levels in these situations?

1. Ranged Blast
2. Kinetic Blade Full Attack
3. Kinetic Fist Full Attack
4. Flurry of Blasts

Depends on your blast type. If it's physical, you can get access to Power Attack/Deadly Aim, which helps quite a bit. In the case of your full attacks, any extra swings you can get from things like Haste increases your dpr. For Kinetic Fist, you can benefit from a Monk's Robe and Amulet of Mighty Fists, as well as similar abilities which buff your unarmed strikes. A full on dip of Unchained Monk would grant you Flurry of Blows, giving another swing at the cost of slower blast progression, which may provide an increase in dpr.

LazarX wrote:
You do know that damage does scale by level?

Poorly.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The basic blasts shouldn't be your primary damage option after 6th level, anyway. That's what the composite blasts (effectively 1d6 per level, plus some bonuses) are for.

Also, the elemental annihilator archetype boosts melee blast damage significantly (especially with Flurry of Devastation).


Maybe on level 11 and onwards if one wants to avoid getting burn every round. Until Supercharge at 11, Gather energy would only take off 1 burn with a move action and infusion specialization doesn't help with the composite blast burn costs


Dragonchess Player wrote:

The basic blasts shouldn't be your primary damage option after 6th level, anyway. That's what the composite blasts (effectively 1d6 per level, plus some bonuses) are for.

Also, the elemental annihilator archetype boosts melee blast damage significantly (especially with Flurry of Devastation).

You're going to rack up too much burn pretty fast if you spam composites too much before level 11ish, from what I'm seeing. Kinda undercuts the point of the class being a sustainable blaster.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Blackwaltzomega wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:

The basic blasts shouldn't be your primary damage option after 6th level, anyway. That's what the composite blasts (effectively 1d6 per level, plus some bonuses) are for.

Also, the elemental annihilator archetype boosts melee blast damage significantly (especially with Flurry of Devastation).

You're going to rack up too much burn pretty fast if you spam composites too much before level 11ish, from what I'm seeing. Kinda undercuts the point of the class being a sustainable blaster.

Gather Power + Infusion Specialization allow you to pull out the big damage options without incurring burn if you really need it. Granted, if you're looking for "big damage every round," then you have to wait until 11th.


Dragonchess Player wrote:
Gather Power + Infusion Specialization allow you to pull out the big damage options without incurring burn if you really need it. Granted, if you're looking for "big damage every round," then you have to wait until 11th.

So that would make Composite Blasts your nova/nuke option and Basic Blasts your primary damage option then, ne?

I suspect your highest damage ceiling will come from a Physical Composite Blast that's being Empowered from Metakinesis and using the Kinetic Blade/Whip infusion. This lets you hit really, really hard multiple times in a full attack action, including possibly benefiting from Haste and other party buffs (Inspire Courage.) The formula would look something like...
S(1.5(Ld6+L+C+P))
Where S= Swings, L=Level, C=Con, P=Power Attack damage mod. This is not entirely accurate, since L doesn't quite result in a linear distribution but a step distribution with 2d showing up every other level, but annotating 2(MATH.floor(L/2)) in place of L might cause confusion, but I digress. The principal problem is: you're eating a LOT of burn for this. 2 for the Composite Blast, 2 for the Kinetic Whip, 1 for the Empower... Happily we can reduce our burn intake from Infusion Specialization, but Metakinesis Master and Composite Specialization comes very late, we can't Gather due to our action economy, and our Buffer, while helpful, is finite. It'll reduce the burn the first time we do this down to 1 taken, but after that it's 3 a pop.


1 level of monk/brawler
energy based simple blast
amulet of mighty fists with conductive

you now get to hit with your blast more than once per round without taking burn

later add in pummeling style so all your extra blasts are added together before resistance is calculated.

Throw in a level of bloodrager + the raging vitality feat for a +6 to Con when you need it.


The annoying part of the Kineticist is that Kinetic Blade is the way to go. Attack once at 1st, twice at 8th, and three with Haste, basically.

It's obnoxious. It's the damage a Kineticist should be dealing at a base level but you're forced into melee combat to make use of it.

And it's cheaper to do! You don't have to fiddle with all the ranged Feats, you just need Weapon Finesse.


Im pretty sure that a conductive AoMF won't work. Conductive would require a ranged touch attack, since that's what the base blast is. Kinetic Blade/Whip allow you to make melee touch attacks, but they are form infusions, which wouldn't work an AoMF.

I also wouldn't count on being able to abuse conductive ammo. That's something that just screams incoming errata.


An energy simple blast is a ranged touch attack...

I don't know why you are talking about kinetic blade with AoMF, because the amulet gives you the effect of kinetic blade already: blast damage more than once per round.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If you wish to be ranged then it's start with Burn, use Gather+Infusion Spec for Composite Blast when you acquire it and expect substandard ranged damage throughout your career.

During playtest there was no way to really pump it up if you wanted to be a "ranged purist." Or if there was, no one posted it on the forums.

Based on the release apparently that DPR is what the Paizo devs consider appropriate, which is basically about one-quarter to one-half that of a standard ranged martial or caster. There were some minor bumps but they amount to about 5%-10% damage increase.

I mean a 6th level fire Kineticist trying to roast foes in an area is

Kineticist maths:
...let's assume max burn of 3 already so he gets another +2 con and a starting Con of 20 plus a +2 Con belt for final Con of 24.
And he uses Eruption (Burn 2) for 10 foot radius. With Infusion Spec and Gather Power for no Burn incurred:
3d6+5 Reflex half damage in a 10 foot radius.

Average 16.5 before save. 10 foot radius.

Compare to a Evoker build.

Wiz/Src maths:

Compare to a Wizard 5(Evoker)/Sorc 1(cross blooded Orc/Drac)
Traits to Reduce Metamagic Cost
Spell Spec (+2 CL)
Empower Spell
7d6+16(bloodline)+2(intense spells)
7d6+18x1.5(free Empower) Reflex half damage in 20 foot radius.

Average 54.75 before save. 20 foot radius.

Sure the Kineticist can do this all day...but while the Kineticist is spending rounds spamming his blasts therefore allowing the enemy to react/attack/heal, the Evoker is ENDING the combat in one round.
And the traditional caster can do a heck of a lot more than the kineticist.

So basically melee is it.

Note: I'm going to keep playing my Water(cold) Kineticist though. I really like the class concept, at it is a conversion of the 3.5 warlock.


Shadowkire wrote:

An energy simple blast is a ranged touch attack...

I don't know why you are talking about kinetic blade with AoMF, because the amulet gives you the effect of kinetic blade already: blast damage more than once per round.

A conductive AoMF does nothing for a kineticist. They don't work together. Energy blasts are ranged touch attacks. AoMF is only melee attacks. Conductive requires the triggering attack match the attack type of the SLA.


Oh... missed that last part of conductive. That sucks.

Silver Crusade

I was hoping to avoid burn altogether except for maybe big fights. I would combo chain ride-the-blast electric blast to close the distance, full attack air blast kinetic blade/whip next round. I just want to make sure it measures up in power. I don't mind dipping at all if the end result is more adaptive and powerful.


Rerednaw wrote:
stuff

... why are you comparing an empowered spell to a non empowered blast? Not that the empowered helps much in your example, but it is something.

I suspect, however, the math becomes quite a bit closer if you compare single target dpr. That 6th level kineticist could be doing an empowered physical shot with deadly aim thrown in the mix. Assuming only an 18 starting Con because we're using a physical blast and thus need more Dex to ensure accuracy despite Deadly Aim, we arrive at:
3d6+3(Blast)+6(Con)+4(Overflow)+4(Deadly)+1d6+8(Empowered) or 4d6+25, average of 39 with a +9 ish to hit before esoteric modifiers. Note that doesn't include Point Blank Shot, which is worth another 2 points (due to an odd break point for empower's +50%) So within 30 feet, they're eating 40ish average damage at level 6. Not bad.

The talents exist to make kineticists do aoe damage, but they're far better at single target damage with physical blasts.


Rerednaw wrote:


I mean a 6th level fire Kineticist trying to roast foes in an area is
** spoiler omitted **
Average 16.5 before save. 10 foot radius.

Compare to a Wizard 5(Evoker)/Sorc 1(cross blooded Orc/Drac)
Traits to Reduce Metamagic Cost
Spell Spec (+2 CL)
Empower Spell
7d6+16(bloodline)+2(intense spells)
7d6+18x1.5(free Empower) Reflex half damage in 20 foot radius.
Average 54.75 before save. 20 foot radius.

really like the class concept, at it is a conversion of the 3.5 warlock.

To be fair, at 6th level is a very big milestone for the traditional blaster. At 5th level for example the difference ist much smaller (without the Sorcerer-dip). Still the Wizard will do a lot more damage throughout his carreer. But part of that is because he had a lot more time to get additional options/resources published. A CRB Wizard (without Wayang Spell Hunter, Magical Lineage, Orc Bloodline) would probably do only marginally more damage than a Kineticist.


Rerednaw wrote:
Note: I'm going to keep playing my Water(cold) Kineticist though. I really like the class concept, at it is a conversion of the 3.5 warlock.

The sad truth is that all the classes received a power bump when coming from 3.5 to Pathfinder. This is the Warlock with less options on shapes and less useful powers. They got a slight damage bump with adding stat mods but lost on damage type and range. Warlocks were not high up on the power list of classes once people played them in 3.5. You would be better off playing the original warlock. Cutting them down for Pathfinder was not needed. What is so bad on giving fire a 15 foot radius fireball for 3d6+con at 6th?


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You do get 10 ft radius 40 foot high cylinders of fire. There is that.


The cloud's a better option. Less reflex saves, half damage twice if they enter the cloud AND end their turn there.


Guys, don't forget that a move action to father and a standard to blast equates to a full attack option for a fighter. You don't get free composites too early unless you gather, because a basic blast keeps pace with a single attack of a fighter, not the full attack option. That's done on a kineticist with a move to gather, then your blast.


Shiroi wrote:
Guys, don't forget that a move action to father and a standard to blast equates to a full attack option for a fighter.

My lady and I prefer when I take more than a move action when attempting to father, but YMMV...

Amusing typos aside, I do believe that when I mentioned Composite Blasts in the context of full attacks, I did allude to not being able to Gather due to the action economy involved. The burn one takes when so doing is certainly greater than 0, so in theory you'd want to hold onto this option for when things are dire, but it's nice to be able to pull out the big guns when needed and dump something on the order of 3 swings (hasted) for about 40 a pop at level 8.

The math there, by the by, is 8d6(average 28)+8+7(Con)+4(PowerAtk), predicated off using a Kinetic Whip Composite Blast. We could eke out slightly more by two handing the blade for +6 PowerAtk bonus, and we could certainly assume we upgraded our Con belt from +2 to +4 by level 8, but still, 40 ish damage a swing. Ah! But I forgot empower! So 60ish damage a swing. Cost of 3 Burn, offset to 1 by our Buffer assuming we charged it and saved it for this nova instance. It started at 5 burn, but thankfully we have two instances of Infusion Specialization by this point, completely reducing the cost of Kinetic Whip.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ryzoken wrote:
Rerednaw wrote:
stuff

... why are you comparing an empowered spell to a non empowered blast? Not that the empowered helps much in your example, but it is something.

I suspect, however, the math becomes quite a bit closer if you compare single target dpr. That 6th level kineticist could be doing an empowered physical shot with deadly aim thrown in the mix. Assuming only an 18 starting Con because we're using a physical blast and thus need more Dex to ensure accuracy despite Deadly Aim, we arrive at:
3d6+3(Blast)+6(Con)+4(Overflow)+4(Deadly)+1d6+8(Empowered) or 4d6+25, average of 39 with a +9 ish to hit before esoteric modifiers. Note that doesn't include Point Blank Shot, which is worth another 2 points (due to an odd break point for empower's +50%) So within 30 feet, they're eating 40ish average damage at level 6. Not bad.

The talents exist to make kineticists do aoe damage, but they're far better at single target damage with physical blasts.

Not sure on your math. Last update from the devs I recall Empower multiplies variable only, not flat modifiers like you did above. Why I used the wiz empowered and the kineticist not is because the wizard is dropping the spell by 2 levels and getting the Empower for free, the Kin does not.

Single target-wise I'd actually go with Energy and Blue Flame Composite and that new talent that boosts overflow. But on the Wizard side if you want to compare single target damage...he could be throwing scorching rays or any other number of effects. And if he's built for single target damage, then the wiz will out perform the kin again. The only way a kineticist will get higher DPR is what was already stated, giving up on range and going melee...or picking up a bow. Yes, a kineticist with a bow out-performed a kineticist using blasts :( he's a bit better now...but not by enough sadly. And against a real archer....not even close.


Rerednaw wrote:
Ryzoken wrote:
Rerednaw wrote:
stuff

... why are you comparing an empowered spell to a non empowered blast? Not that the empowered helps much in your example, but it is something.

I suspect, however, the math becomes quite a bit closer if you compare single target dpr. That 6th level kineticist could be doing an empowered physical shot with deadly aim thrown in the mix. Assuming only an 18 starting Con because we're using a physical blast and thus need more Dex to ensure accuracy despite Deadly Aim, we arrive at:
3d6+3(Blast)+6(Con)+4(Overflow)+4(Deadly)+1d6+8(Empowered) or 4d6+25, average of 39 with a +9 ish to hit before esoteric modifiers. Note that doesn't include Point Blank Shot, which is worth another 2 points (due to an odd break point for empower's +50%) So within 30 feet, they're eating 40ish average damage at level 6. Not bad.

The talents exist to make kineticists do aoe damage, but they're far better at single target damage with physical blasts.

Not sure on your math. Last update from the devs I recall Empower multiplies variable only, not flat modifiers like you did above. Why I used the wiz empowered and the kineticist not is because the wizard is dropping the spell by 2 levels and getting the Empower for free, the Kin does not.

Single target-wise I'd actually go with Energy and Blue Flame Composite and that new talent that boosts overflow. But on the Wizard side if you want to compare single target damage...he could be throwing scorching rays or any other number of effects. And if he's built for single target damage, then the wiz will out perform the kin again. The only way a kineticist will get higher DPR is what was already stated, giving up on range and going melee...or picking up a bow. Yes, a kineticist with a bow out-performed a kineticist using blasts :( he's a bit better now...but not by enough sadly. And against a real archer....not even close.

Empower affects the numerical bonus too.

Grand Lodge

necro'ing because I'm doing a kineticist and had to check a million thread for empower:

as per the above mentioned FAQ, Empower applies to the Dice and to the level-based bonus...

so you only get 1.5 to the "+3" from the "3d6+3" in the above example, you don't get your overflow & Con modifer , PBS, ...


Vrischika111 wrote:

necro'ing because I'm doing a kineticist and had to check a million thread for empower:

as per the above mentioned FAQ, Empower applies to the Dice and to the level-based bonus...

so you only get 1.5 to the "+3" from the "3d6+3" in the above example, you don't get your overflow & Con modifer , PBS, ...

Empower applies to dice and level-based bonus. The FAQ doesn't say it doesn't apply to overflow, Con mod, etc. though. You have to go read the text of Empower to figure that out.


I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the Kineticist's Diadem. It can only attuned to one element, but any blast using that element deals an extra 1-3 damage dice (d6s for energy, d8s for physical)

Only downside is the cost, seeing as the Greater diadem costs 98,000 for a 3-die increase

Grand Lodge

QuidEst wrote:
Vrischika111 wrote:

necro'ing because I'm doing a kineticist and had to check a million thread for empower:

as per the above mentioned FAQ, Empower applies to the Dice and to the level-based bonus...

so you only get 1.5 to the "+3" from the "3d6+3" in the above example, you don't get your overflow & Con modifer , PBS, ...

Empower applies to dice and level-based bonus. The FAQ doesn't say it doesn't apply to overflow, Con mod, etc. though. You have to go read the text of Empower to figure that out.

not sure if you're agreeing or not ;)

so I'll just add that the FAQ explicitely specifies "level-based" bonus.
which CON/overflow are not.

Grand Lodge

No, the FAQ gives an example with level based bonuses. The question asks about "a numerical bonus" getting multiplied by 50% and the FAQ says "Yes."

The part you keep quoting starts with "for example" and talks about a Cure Moderate Wounds spell which has dice and a level based bonus, both of which get multiplied. That's just how examples work, it doesn't mean that the whole FAQ answer only applies to Cure Moderate Wounds either.


The FAQ already addresses numerical bonuses. It simply used the level-based bonus as an EXAMPLE of a numerical bonus.

The question was: If I use Empower Spell on a spell that has a die roll with a numerical bonus (such as cure moderate wounds), does the feat affect the numerical bonus?

Answer: Yes. For example, if you empower cure moderate wounds, the +50% from the feat applies to the 2d8 and to the level-based bonus.


Empower boosts all damage the blast does.

Grand Lodge

Protoman > I completely agree, cure is clear.

however , for kinetic blast or a 7th sorcerer with orc bloodline:
magic missile is 4d+4 + another 4 for the bloodline.

as far as I understand the FAQ, the empowered would be 1.5* (4d4+4) +4

the last +4 coming from bloodline is not level-based, so it's not multiplied

similarly for kineticist : the +CON bonus would not be empowered.

Markov>
the question is about spell with numerical bonus. not about extra numerical bonus to spell...
the FAQ says yes, but also further explains thet "level-based bonus" are multiplied.


No, the "level-based bonus" is an EXAMPLE of a numerical bonus. You're misunderstanding the FAQ.

Your example magic missile + orc bloodline for 4d4+4 (magic missile) + 4 (orc bloodline), the empower would be = 1.5 x (4d4+4 AND +4)

Empowered kinetic blast = 1.5 x (Nd6+N + Con) for physical blast or 1.5 x (ND6+ 1/2 Con) for energy blast.

The FAQ asked about a spell with a die roll with a numerical bonus not a spell with a bonus. It's about spells that do damage based on number of dice with any numerical bonus attached.

Even Mark Seifter empowers all the numerical bonuses for kinetic blasts.

Grand Lodge

Thanks for your time to answer me.

however both your link (from Mark) and the FAQ literally mentions
LEVEL BASED bonus, I never see any mention to fixed bonus (like CON)

how can that be explained if ALL bonus would be multiplied.


"For example, if you empower cure moderate wounds, the +50% from the feat applies to the 2d8 and to the level-based bonus."

Cure Moderate Wounds heals more based on your level. The FAQ example tells you that if you Empower that particular spell then the level based bonus of that spell is counted in for the +50%.

The part you're focusing on is one example. It is not saying that only level based bonus and not any other kind are empowered.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

The text of Empower spell literally says to increase variables and all bonuses to those variables.


The FAQ says "FOR EXAMPLE" and uses cure moderate wounds with a level based bonus. The level based bonus is an EXAMPLE of a numerical bonus. The bonus could have been any other source: Con bonus, inspire courage, bloodline, trait, feat, insight, whatever. The FAQ question just asks about THE NUMERICAL BONUS with no specification to what kind, and the FAQ says YES to that.

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