The Cardslinger (Gunslinger Archetype)


Homebrew and House Rules

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I considered publishing a book about cardslinging archetypes, so I created this gunslinger archetype for fun. Tell me what you think or if you have any suggestions.

LINK


At a first glance it seems good, but you should look to prevent some deeds from benefitting from the Signature Deed feat. Especially Card Sharp as it is is particularly effective as deals damage even on a miss so being able to always hit for free may be excessively strong


I agree with Entryhazard on that.

Over all I like this, mix it with a Magus and you have Gambit with some seriously good abilities.


The write up looks great, the flavor makes me want to burn it with fire.

I will follow an evenhanded path on this one and simultaneously laud your write up, whilst condemning all your Gambit Hearts Rogue near mint #1s--yes even the glow in the dark, holographic, foil stamped variant--to a ghastly fate as fair to poor condition bargain-box fare.

Carry on.

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Entryhazard wrote:
At a first glance it seems good, but you should look to prevent some deeds from benefitting from the Signature Deed feat. Especially Card Sharp as it is is particularly effective as deals damage even on a miss so being able to always hit for free may be excessively strong

That's a good point. Maybe I should make that not reducible or not have it deal damage on a miss.


Cyrad wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
At a first glance it seems good, but you should look to prevent some deeds from benefitting from the Signature Deed feat. Especially Card Sharp as it is is particularly effective as deals damage even on a miss so being able to always hit for free may be excessively strong
That's a good point. Maybe I should make that not reducible or not have it deal damage on a miss.

Damage on a miss is fine, as it is a reduced amount but yeah make it so that it cannot be reduced. But I will say the Up Close and Personal Deed on Pistolero is not limited so maybe its fine.


Any way to get cards cheaply? Harrow decks are annoyingly not cheap. Also, any way to hit touch AC? Swashbuckler can do it, all types of Gunslinger (Bolt Ace included) can do it, Magus (which gets a card archetype) can do it. How about this class?

Also, range is going to be an issue. Any way to boost range with Grit? A regular gunslinger with a pistol has three advantages on this class: range (20 ft.), damage (1d8), and touch AC.

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I went ahead and made Card Sharp not reducible by Signature Deed and similar effects.

My Self wrote:

Any way to get cards cheaply? Harrow decks are annoyingly not cheap. Also, any way to hit touch AC? Swashbuckler can do it, all types of Gunslinger (Bolt Ace included) can do it, Magus (which gets a card archetype) can do it. How about this class?

Also, range is going to be an issue. Any way to boost range with Grit? A regular gunslinger with a pistol has three advantages on this class: range (20 ft.), damage (1d8), and touch AC.

A harrow card costs about 1.85 gp, which is more expensive than a bullet+powder, but also much cheaper than an alchemical cartridge. Since cards aren't cheap and they lack the benefit of touch AC, I tried to make the replacement deeds stronger and synergize with one another. For example, the Luck of the Draw deed makes all other random-card deeds better by allowing you to hold a randomly drawn card in your hand. An early draft of Card Sharp let you target touch, but I ultimately decided with burst damage. I thought a deed like that would be more fun.

Try using normal playing cards when you want to save money and don't want to waste luck on mooks and such. A normal deck of cards only costs 1gp. You want to carry a cheap deck anyway for using deeds like Trump Play and Card Trick (create difficult terrain).

Cards have the same range as a pistol (20 ft). Distance Thrower is a pretty decent feat. There's a surprising number of options for increasing thrown weapon range.


Doesn't an harrow deck cost 100gp? So per card should be slightly less than 1GP, that is in line with Bullet + Powder reduced by Gunsmith

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A harrow deck has 54 cards and costs 100 gp, so that's about 1.85 gp per card. A little over the cost of a bullet and a dose of black powder. However, it's much cheaper than alchemical cartridges. And you have the option of using normal cards or random stuff with Throw Anything when you want to conserve ammo.


Oh god my brain is fried right now, I dunno why but I kept reading 100gp as 50


DEADLY DEALER
If you are altering weapon proficiencies, that should go into the proficiencies section, not a different class feature. Why is the bit about Arcane Strike in here? I don't see how that feat is relevant.

LUCK
I have mixed feelings about renaming this class feature. Yes it is slightly different, but aside from those differences it is identical to Grit. Look at the mysterious stranger's Grit feature and see if that helps your wording at all.

PICK A CARD
I think you missed some words in the first sentance.

I would have liked to see the inclusion of some other uses of cards, aside from drawing throwing them. For example, is the cardslinger any better at playing cards than other players? A bonus to Profession (gambler) would handle that, or to skill checks make while gambling (bluff, slight of hand, perception, sense motive). Also, I'm not encouraging you to turn this into a fortune teller class, but you could perhaps draw some inspiration from that concept. Look at Natural Divination in the oracle's nature mystery.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:

DEADLY DEALER

If you are altering weapon proficiencies, that should go into the proficiencies section, not a different class feature. Why is the bit about Arcane Strike in here? I don't see how that feat is relevant.

Deadly Dealer is an actual Feat that lets you use cards as thrown weapons with the same stats of Darts. Also is Replacing the Gunsmith class feature.

Arcane Strike is mentioned because normally Deadly Dealer requires the character to empower the cards with Arcane Strike in order to throw them, so like with the Card Sharp Rogue Talent it says that this character can use Cards as weapons without the Arcane Strike being active.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

LUCK

I have mixed feelings about renaming this class feature. Yes it is slightly different, but aside from those differences it is identical to Grit. Look at the mysterious stranger's Grit feature and see if that helps your wording at all.

Luck is keyed off Charisma and has a precedent in the Sleuth Archetype for the Investigator that replaces Alchemy with the Luck pool that works like and counts as Panache and Grit, but is renamed for thematic purpose, and I believe it is fitting for a Card player.

The Panache itself is "Grit for rapiers", but they changed the name for something more fitting for a Swashbuckler, that has more flair than grit

I'm not the one that made this Cardslinger, but these points are rather apparent in mechanics and purpose

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Making this a gunslinger archetype is an interesting but also somewhat problematic choice, because many of these features should in fact be supernatural abilities. I get that you want this archetype to remain mundane (in accordance with the original gunslinger), but I would think that a gunslinger archetype with a supernatural touch doesn't hurt.


Amanuensis wrote:
Making this a gunslinger archetype is an interesting but also somewhat problematic choice, because many of these features should in fact be supernatural abilities. I get that you want this archetype to remain mundane (in accordance with the original gunslinger), but I would think that a gunslinger archetype with a supernatural touch doesn't hurt.

Generally effects based on Luck are Ex, think about the possible interaction with Antimagic Field.

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(Fixed the typo, Ciaran Barnes. Thanks!)

Entryhazard hit the nail on the head. I don't change pool names lightly -- it's something I criticize often when reviewing magus archetypes. However, grit already has a precedent for renaming the ability and ACG has a side bar specifically for explaining how renamed grit mechanics work, including mentioning luck. Lumping the proficiency change with Deadly Dealer might not have been good form, I might change that. I lumped them together because it felt like it made sense from an organizational standpoint.

I would have liked a skill bonus or something to do with Profession (gambler), but that didn't feel appropriate for deeds. I am considering writing a cardslinger's book. Bardic performances with using Sleight of Hand to do card tricks would be fun.

Amanuensis wrote:
Making this a gunslinger archetype is an interesting but also somewhat problematic choice, because many of these features should in fact be supernatural abilities. I get that you want this archetype to remain mundane (in accordance with the original gunslinger), but I would think that a gunslinger archetype with a supernatural touch doesn't hurt.

This is an awkward subject that even Sean K Reynolds brought up once on his blog. The line between extraordinary and supernatural abilities blurs when characters get sufficiently fantastical. And with the rare mechanical exception of antimagic, the distinction doesn't really matter. But maybe my description leaned too heavily in supernatural territory? I wanted this to be extraordinary because there's already supernatural cardslinger archetypes and grit/panache are extraordinary.


Cyrad wrote:
Lumping the proficiency change with Deadly Dealer might not have been good form, I might change that. I lumped them together because it felt like it made sense from an organizational standpoint.

The paragraph is mostly fine, all it needs is just to move the sentence about the firearms proficiency in a dedicated paragraph.

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Entryhazard wrote:
Generally effects based on Luck are Ex, think about the possible interaction with Antimagic Field.

I get that. But creating difficult terrain with cards or using them to open locks is more than just luck. I'm having a hard time seeing this working as an extraordinary effect.


Amanuensis wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
Generally effects based on Luck are Ex, think about the possible interaction with Antimagic Field.
I get that. But creating difficult terrain with cards or using them to open locks is more than just luck. I'm having a hard time seeing this working as an extraordinary effect.

Regarding difficult terrain i could agree, but opening locks? Have you ever seen the movies? they use credit cards to lockpick doors all the time

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Maybe something else for difficult terrain? Like fascinating a creature? Or say that they fill the area with other stuff as well? Like dice and such?


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Cardslinger are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, plus the bola, light hammer, net, throwing axe, short sword, and shurikens. They are also proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

This replaces the gunslinger's weapon and armor proficiencies.

Throw Cards: A cardslinger gains Throw Anything as a bonus feat. She can make attacks with a card, treating it as though it were a shuriken. If she makes an attack with a card from a harrow deck, she instead treats it as though it were a dart.

This ability replaces gunsmith.

Gambler (Ex): A cardslinger gains a +2 bonus on Profession (gambler) and Slight of Hand checks.

Luck (Ex): A cardslinger’s force of personality manipulates events to unfold in ways seemingly improbable or impossible. This ability functions as the gunslinger's Grit class feature, except that her number of luck points is determined by her Charisma modifier instead of her Wisdom modifier, and she regains luck with thrown weapons instead of firearms. Luck counts as grit or panache for the purpose of feat prerequisites.

This ability replaces grit.


Oops, that was supposed to say Cardslingers are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the bola, light hammer, throwing axe, short sword, and shurikens.

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Entryhazard wrote:
Regarding difficult terrain i could agree, but opening locks? Have you ever seen the movies? they use credit cards to lockpick doors all the time

I see. That probably wouldn't work with most pre-modern locks, but sure, why not. Maybe it's just me, but when I thought about mundane abilities to open a lock with a card, the first thing that came to mind was advanced origami techniques (actually, that goes right into my notebook - an origami-based archetype would be a really interesting idea).

I think the abilities are cool and flavorful and making them supernatural doesn't hurt. Deadly Dealer becomes plausible because of its connection to Arcane Strike ('it works because it's magic').

Liberty's Edge

This is definitely a cool concept that I would love to test play, thanks for making it, first glance it really looks like it replaces a lot of abilities so it was kind of daunting but after reading it, it seems viable.

I will play it this week and try to give you some feedback from a game.

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Card origami was what I was pictured when I wrote that ability! Hm, I'm debating on what to do with Card Trick (create difficult terrain).

Angry Ghost wrote:

This is definitely a cool concept that I would love to test play, thanks for making it, first glance it really looks like it replaces a lot of abilities so it was kind of daunting but after reading it, it seems viable.

I will play it this week and try to give you some feedback from a game.

I'm glad you like it and look forward to hearing how it goes. I must admit, I got worried that the archetype got a bit bloated, but I felt most of the replacements made sense.

Liberty's Edge

Cyrad wrote:

Card origami was what I was pictured when I wrote that ability! Hm, I'm debating on what to do with Card Trick (create difficult terrain).

Angry Ghost wrote:

This is definitely a cool concept that I would love to test play, thanks for making it, first glance it really looks like it replaces a lot of abilities so it was kind of daunting but after reading it, it seems viable.

I will play it this week and try to give you some feedback from a game.

I'm glad you like it and look forward to hearing how it goes. I must admit, I got worried that the archetype got a bit bloated, but I felt most of the replacements made sense.

One thing I would suggest is under Trump Play, I wouldn't give a shield bonus, maybe a deflection bonus or something as Shields don't help against touch attacks... like guns or another Cardslinger throwing at them. Shields, Armor and spells like Mage Armor and Shield do not protect against ranged touch attack from fire arms. Not sure if this was your point? But A cardslinger (gunslinger) without any sort of defenses against their own class Cardslinger (gunslinger) just strikes me as odd.


It has the usual gunslinger fare of "whelp, I'm finding it real gosh darn hard to justify staying in this class for more than 5 levels", so if your goal was to make an archetype on par with the base gunslinger, you succeeded.

Slightly worse than pistolero in straight DPS, since that one can grab signature deed for its damage bonus, and TWF double barrel pistols. Probably not a problem tho. May want to put in either some range boosting or some melee ability in there.

Liberty's Edge

LoneKnave wrote:

It has the usual gunslinger fare of "whelp, I'm finding it real gosh darn hard to justify staying in this class for more than 5 levels", so if your goal was to make an archetype on par with the base gunslinger, you succeeded.

Slightly worse than pistolero in straight DPS, since that one can grab signature deed for its damage bonus, and TWF double barrel pistols. Probably not a problem tho. May want to put in either some range boosting or some melee ability in there.

My big question is that since they are not firing guns.. then technically do the cards go against full ac then? Though the 1d4 for the dart damage does shrink when compared to the 1d8 of the pistol, even more so if the cards don't get touch.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

i have issue with determining what card was drawn mid combat, but the rest seems fine.

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Cyrad wrote:
Maybe something else for difficult terrain? Like fascinating a creature? Or say that they fill the area with other stuff as well? Like dice and such?

If origami fits the concept, maybe an improved version of caltrops (ignoring natural armor and inflicting bleed damage when additional luck points are expended)?

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Caltrops might work.

TRUMP PLAY'S SHIELD BONUS
I turned Trump Play into a shield bonus so I could justify making the bonus scale with an ability score. I might change this decision since Gunslinger's Dodge also allowed you to move and drop prone as an immediate.

COMPARISON WITH PISTOLERO
I did not intend to make the cardslinger competitive with a TWF pistolero wielding double pistols. Quite frankly, the pistolero is overpowered, double pistols were not well thought out, and firearm touch attacks are something I long debated as a fundamentally flawed game construct. Instead, I aimed to create a fun, flavorful archetype that trades away touch attacks and firearm damage for better deeds and lack of misfires.

Bandw2 wrote:
i have issue with determining what card was drawn mid combat, but the rest seems fine.

What do you mean? What issue do you have?

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I buffed Trump Play so it's a scaling deflection bonus.


What does the class gain from Deadly Dealer, aside from being able to treat a card as a dart and treating harrow cards as masterwork weapons? It seems to me that the feat is unneccessary and you could replace it with a class feature.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
What does the class gain from Deadly Dealer, aside from being able to treat a card as a dart and treating harrow cards as masterwork weapons? It seems to me that the feat is unneccessary and you could replace it with a class feature.

I suppose because he wants to follow the "official" design patter that until now anytime a class relies on cards gets Deadly Dealer as a bonus feat instead of getting a redundant class feature.

Cartomancer Witch gets it, Card Caster Magus gets it, other Magi do so with an arcana, Rogues can take it with Card Sharp with a line that allows them to forgo the Arcane Strike.

Also there are some items that rely on that feat.

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Ciaran Barnes wrote:
What does the class gain from Deadly Dealer, aside from being able to treat a card as a dart and treating harrow cards as masterwork weapons? It seems to me that the feat is unneccessary and you could replace it with a class feature.

Sorry I didn't address this sooner in response to your above posts.

Deadly Dealer neatly encapsulates all the rules and interactions with using cards as weapons. It explains how they work, how they get magically enhanced, how a magical deck interacts with someone without the ability, etc. It covers all the bases, except mentioning what action it takes to draw a card (most assume a free action due to a variety of reasons). Repeating all this information would be redundant and possibly lead to errors similar to those exhibited by some official Paizo products.

My favorite aspect of Deadly Dealer has to do how decks benefit from magical enhancements. For attacks, the feat treats cards as thrown weapons. For magical enhancements, the feat treats a deck as a loose projectile weapon like a longbow. This eliminates a huge drawback to thrown weapon builds, which either require you to magically enhance the weapons individually or (in case of shurikens) require you to enhance a pile of them as if they were ammo. With Deadly Dealer, you can enhance your deck and replace lost cards the same way you replace lost arrows from your magic bow's quiver.

Finally, as Entryhazard pointed out, I want to keep consistency with existing material. All cardslinging archetypes reference Deadly Dealer in the Harrow Handbook. Some magic items also reference it. I see little reason to break that tradition, especially when Deadly Dealer is a well written feat for the above reasons and when Harrow Handbook is one of the most popular Player Companion books.


No need to assume free action for a variety of reason, as there is only one reason: a dart is a piece of ammunition.

I would point out that the deck cannot be enhanced unless the person doing the enhancing has the feat. So he needs to either find a spellcaster with this feat and the craft magic arms and armor, or he needs to do a lot of multi-classing. Maybe you should work some minor spellcasting into the class to avoid the heartache.

Really don't like a bonus feat appearing in the proficiency section. Just lump Throw Anything into the Deadly Dealer feature. Or... just get rid of it completely. He is proficient in the dart, and can thusly throw cards. Why does he need to be able to throw chairs, rocks, etc?

I would make the part about gaining the harrow deck into it's own class feature, separate from the bonus feat. I know you're following suit with the gunslinger, but it feels weird to me. Also, the language you used to not need arcane strike feels odd.


He just needs to have the snip about armor proficiency just say he doesn't have the firearms prof, and then a separate class feature that gives deadly dealer + throw anything replacing the Gunsmith class feature

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In response to an earlier comment by Ciaran Barnes, I made a modification to the Harrowed deed so that you can always spend the +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand or Profession (gambler) regardless of what card you draw. Now you can spend luck to gamble immediately at 1st level.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:
No need to assume free action for a variety of reason, as there is only one reason: a dart is a piece of ammunition.

Technically, darts are thrown weapons, not ammunition. Not to be confused with blowgun darts, which are ammunition. But the Deadly Dealer feat says that you throw cards like darts, not wielding or treating them entirely as darts. So there's reason to believe that cards have the statistics of darts for the purpose of throwing, but not drawing.

Throwing weapon rules are really silly...

Ciaran Barnes wrote:
I would point out that the deck cannot be enhanced unless the person doing the enhancing has the feat. So he needs to either find a spellcaster with this feat and the craft magic arms and armor, or he needs to do a lot of multi-classing. Maybe you should work some minor spellcasting into the class to avoid the heartache.

You have a point, but I feel the cardslinger is largely in the same boat as a gunslinger or any fighter specializing in an exotic weapon. Finding a Varisian with the feat wouldn't be that hard in a campaign in a large city and magic harrow decks do exist. The gunslinger in my campaign still complains that he never gets to find guns in dungeon crawls, even when I've thrown armies at him armed with muskets.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Really don't like a bonus feat appearing in the proficiency section. Just lump Throw Anything into the Deadly Dealer feature. Or... just get rid of it completely. He is proficient in the dart, and can thusly throw cards. Why does he need to be able to throw chairs, rocks, etc?

I went ahead and moved Throw Anything to Deadly Dealer. I kept the tattered deck there because this ability replaces the one that grants a battered gun.

I originally intended to leave firearm proficiency intact, but as I wrote the archetype, I realized that Throw Anything made sense for a concept like this. A cardslinger is the kind of character you can find in a gambling den or a tavern or a place where conventional weapons are prohibited. He's likely got into fights, especially ones instigated by "sore losers" or opponents accusing him of cheating due to his convenient luck. Since he's skilled enough to use cards as deadly weapons, it makes sense he would have the skill to throw bottles and other objects as well. This also opens the door for character concepts that might throw other gaming devices, like dice. Since firearm proficiency costs a feat, that gave me room to replace it with Throw Anything.


I don't have my CRB with me, but d20PFSRD say that darts and blowgun darts both count as ammunition.

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d20pfsrd lists darts as ammunition, but the PRD says otherwise. The CRB mentions them as thrown weapons and UE labels them as simple weapons whereas blowgun darts are labeled as ammunition.


Would it be too large of a departure from Gunslinger to make the thrown weapon training allow you to either use strength to hit and damage with thrown weapons, or use dexterity to hit and damage? Dexterity would probably the more optimal choice, but it would be fun to see someone able to chuck cards so hard at someone that they die.

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That's a good suggestion. I think Dexterity makes more sense thematically, but giving you the option to use Strength instead sounds worth looking at.


You could probably just copy/paste the words from belt of mighty hurling if you wanted to use it. The greater belt has an interesting ability, though I doubt you'll want your (ruined) ammo cards to come flying back at you.

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