Worldbuilding for the Pathfinder RPG


Advice

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For my first actual Campaign as a GM, I decided to create my own setting and play in somewhat of a sandbox-style manner. This is my second serious foray into worldbuilding, my first, the world of giants, being spun-off my own fiction and not for an RPG (although adapting pathfinder for my world seems like it would be fun c: ).

I'm new to actual worldbuilding, however I've been studying anthropology, linguistics, cultures and history, especially the migration period and viking age, and historical Germanic linguistics, for years. So any experience I may have in how societies work comes from a historical and anthropological perspective.

What I've so far discovered is that probably the best way to develop Sun's Garden is through the adventures themselves, which is how apparently Greyhawk and Blackmoor were developed back in the day (according to the Paizo blog), and how Golarion is developed as well.

I've also discovered that using Dwarf Fortress to randomly generate a world map (ignoring blessed/cursed lands and DF civilizations) may not have been a good idea, but the map stuck.

Very quickly, naming languages became necessary, as I do not feel right slapping syllables together and calling it a name (being a details-obsessed linguist with an old passion for name etymologies), but I could not call the Empress 'the Empress' forever, and of course NPCs and places need names and can't always use English words (eg. 'Sun's Haven') Thus, I'm working on one right now. Maybe later I can develop the naming languages into full-fledged conlangs.

I guess this thread is here to ask for advice. What, in your view, differs when worldbuilding for an RPG, than when worldbuilding in general? What makes a campaign setting playable? What are your recommended practices for worldbuilding?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

For worldbuilding for an RPG, you want plothooks and personalities as much as macro geographic details like climate, economics and culture.

If building for a light humor campaign, give your world a slightly dark underbelly to give it punch. A friendly crimelord who is trafficking slaves mysteriously in and out of the setting, a criminal underground, a dark ritual that is mostly ignored by the local populace.

Conversely, if building a dark horror world, provide points of light, fellowship and camerraderie. If you read the Dresden Files, there is plenty of humor mised in with the dark of Dresden's world. There are also a few places that you might actually want to visit, like Mac's bar for its netural turf and delicious homebrews.

By working in a few strands of the opposite tone to the rest of your campaign into your world, you are giving it richness that it otherwise would not have, and making it breathe for your charaacters.


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From the way you describe yourself, you have a very big toolchest for worldbuilding. Think about the experience, the flavor, you want your players to have and proceed boldly forward.

Then check in with your players about the kind of experience they are having and the kind of experience you are hoping for. Players will always surprise you. Sometimes they will seize on what you thought was the most trivial detail and insist on going that way. And it might be that that is really where the whole story is supposed to be. And some really cool details are just lost on the players or if not lost then unappreciated.

A good campaign is a collaboration between players and GMs.


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Q: "What, in your view, differs when worldbuilding for an RPG, than when worldbuilding in general?"

A: For me, nothing. When building a new world for fiction, you need intrigue, you need action, history, believe-ability (unless you are going mind-churning fantastical or just plain comical). An RPG world is exactly the same. That is why there are so many novels based on Krynn, Faerûn, Greyhawk, Golarion, and more! RPGs are like stories, just you are participating in the story and making it your own. Whatever approach you used for your first world is going to help in constructing the next one for an RPG.

Q: "What makes a campaign setting playable?"

A: Adventure. Intrigue. Don't introduce too many new rules or concepts or large amounts of info dumping right away. Start with what you and your group are familiar with, and build upon that over time. I have made (and still do because of excitement with sharing my worlds) the mistake of large info dumps and making all kinds of new variant rules. All that just takes you out of the game and reminds you that you are looking at a game. It is like reading a novel and then the author stopping just before something good happens and goes on a long tangent (kind of like I'm doing now) about seemingly non-important things that kind of have to do with what is going on, but in actuality you don't really need to know it and you are pretty mad that he took you out of the story and now you have to try to get back into the zone.

That was kind of annoying, right? So simply put, the flavor and history will make your world and setting unique. Keep it simple and full of intrigue to be explored.

Q: "What are your recommended practices for worldbuilding?"

A: Include whatever excites you. Borrow ideas from novels, movies, and other settings (only use as inspiration, don't just recreate it). Often times, having one really well-developed area and a few scrapes of other parts will help and save lots of time. As your group wants to go explore, you will have fragments of important details to build upon. Do not rely on making everything right away. Have your world-building be reactive to what is going on in your game sessions.

Other tips:

Maps: Pay attention to the movement of Earth's tectonic plates over the previous millions of years. You can get a good idea (and a few ideas) of the geographical elements to your maps.

History: Only put in what you feel is important and that you want to include from the beginning. This way, you can have ideas about other stuff, but this will allow you to change your mind. It also allows you to insert important events for a story-line you wish to create that might have conflicted with parts of an extensive history.

Languages and Names: I am no linguistic like Tolkien was. That man was a genius. If you feel stuck, try using google translate and random name generators with regional and historical names. There are dozens of them online. Even purely fantasy-based ones. You can use these in full, or to lay a foundation for your own.

Hope that helps. If you have other specific questions, just fire away.

EDIT:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
A good campaign is a collaboration between players and GMs.

That is 100% true. Always, always, ALWAYS for RPGs.


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One difference between world-building for fiction and for RPGs is that in an RPG you're more likely to have to verbally improvise something on the spot, and unless you write it down you might forget it and become inconsistent over time.

Another is that players will often come up with things for character backstories, and you can weave this into the fabric of the world. It hadn't occurred to me that my country would have travelling circuses, but one of my PCs used to be in a circus, so now it does.

Language tip - take an earth culture that's similar to the culture in your world, and take a name from that, and modify it just slightly. So a name like Jason could become Jagon or Jaquon or Kason or Jasott or Jeeson.


Hmm wrote:

For worldbuilding for an RPG, you want plothooks and personalities as much as macro geographic details like climate, economics and culture.

If building for a light humor campaign, give your world a slightly dark underbelly to give it punch. A friendly crimelord who is trafficking slaves mysteriously in and out of the setting, a criminal underground, a dark ritual that is mostly ignored by the local populace.

Conversely, if building a dark horror world, provide points of light, fellowship and camerraderie. If you read the Dresden Files, there is plenty of humor mised in with the dark of Dresden's world. There are also a few places that you might actually want to visit, like Mac's bar for its netural turf and delicious homebrews.

By working in a few strands of the opposite tone to the rest of your campaign into your world, you are giving it richness that it otherwise would not have, and making it breathe for your charaacters.

My style of worldbuilding seems to have a sort of dark and cynical bent to it. I think it is mostly serious, but I am also known for my gallows humor so perhaps that may also shine through? I guess I should work on it, though.

This world is dominated by an elven empire that not only has enslaved most of the other core races to some extent, but slavery is normalized as a core and 'necessary' (in their view) of society. "There must always be a Ground for the Sun to shine on, to give forth life and bear fruit" is a core tenet of their religion. This means that the elves must always have an undercaste serving them otherwise they would starve. The Drow are descended from an ancient elven undercaste that farmed and did the hard labor, but after they revolted and were driven into the mountains, they were eventually replaced by Humans, Halflings and to a lesser extent Dwarves.

For an idea of how dark it can get, the island capital of the empire isn't even their actual homeland. The island used to be the ancestral homeland of the Halflings, but long ago the empire conquered, enslaved the Halflings and destroyed their villages, and then built their city and over time began to claim that The Eye of the World had always been theirs. Hobbit hole ruins thus are an idea for possible dungeons.

On the other hand, one of my players developed a character who is not very bright and had been swindled into buying useless cursed objects, such as a Bag of Biting. It's not even useful for holding things, it just bites your hand. They also have a flying hourglass that isn't even useful for telling time because it just tells whatever time it wants.

Maybe little stuff like that, I will try to disperse through my campaign.

Liberty's Edge

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AtT, your setting sounds very close to melniboné ;-)


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

From the way you describe yourself, you have a very big toolchest for worldbuilding. Think about the experience, the flavor, you want your players to have and proceed boldly forward.

Then check in with your players about the kind of experience they are having and the kind of experience you are hoping for. Players will always surprise you. Sometimes they will seize on what you thought was the most trivial detail and insist on going that way. And it might be that that is really where the whole story is supposed to be. And some really cool details are just lost on the players or if not lost then unappreciated.

A good campaign is a collaboration between players and GMs.

I guess what I want most for my players is to enjoy immersing themselves in my world, and exploring it. My favorite part of RPG and games in general has always been immersion and exploration, and I would like my players to be able to enjoy that too.

I've already decided with my players that part of the sandbox nature of the campaign is that they decide where the story goes. If they decide to plunge into the depths of Elf Hell and take their chances against the empress and her elite guard, so be it. If they decide to liberate the recently annexed Dwarven kingdom, I will guide them. If they just want to explore forests and ruins, I will guide them through that too.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Here are some things to think about when world building for a campaign.

The first couple of adventures should be introductions to your world. Establish what to expect. An example that I did was having a low level party explore an abandoned tower. They saw movement in the tower windows but couldn't quite make out what was happening. When they finally got into the tower and to that room, the skeleton archers turned around and continued to fire arrows at them.

Except the bow strings had rotted away about a century ago, and they were out of arrows.

It was supposed to be an easy fight and demonstrate how mindless the low level undead were in my world. It accomplished that and gave the players a good laugh.

The areas away from where the PCs are adventuring are still very malleable. Don't be afraid of adjusting things that the PCs haven't seen.

The PCs make mistakes, so should the NPCs. Don't have infallible NPCs that always have good information on everything that happens. Have some things that certain NPC leaders do show a bias based on their personal beliefs. Perhaps it is over dependence on magic, or being too disconnected from those they rule. Make sure your NPCs (hero and villain) have flaws and gaps in their knowledge.

I hope some of this helps.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Okay... Here's an example of putting in a little light into your world.

Just about every slave-owning culture that I've read about has some freed slaves who by dint of talent or circumstance have made themselves free. Maybe they even have their own ghetto or neighborhood where multiple generations of freeborn live which is tolerated by the main society because it provides services that cannot be gotten elsewhere. New Orleans, the biggest slave market in the south, also had the largest free "colored" (mixed blood) population that provided all sorts of services that the ruling class could not get elsewhere or purchase from slaves.

What did these sections of New Orleans provide? Everything from bars to artisans to restaurants to Plaçage -- a system of contracted mistresses who would provide a rich male with all the long-term loving companionship he could not get from his actual wife. These ladies were incredibly independent, and thus status symbols for the elite.

I could see a similar neighborhood in your capitol filled with half-elves and others who had earned / inherited their freedom. You can have this area have all sorts of exciting businesses and non-elves who have fulfilling lives -- whether or not they self-identify with the elite.

Having a little light will give your PCs something to invest in and protect. Something that can be threatened, and thus is precious to them.


DM-DR wrote:

Q: "What, in your view, differs when worldbuilding for an RPG, than when worldbuilding in general?"

A: For me, nothing. When building a new world for fiction, you need intrigue, you need action, history, believe-ability (unless you are going mind-churning fantastical or just plain comical). An RPG world is exactly the same. That is why there are so many novels based on Krynn, Faerûn, Greyhawk, Golarion, and more! RPGs are like stories, just you are participating in the story and making it your own. Whatever approach you used for your first world is going to help in constructing the next one for an RPG.

That makes sense to me c:

DM-DR wrote:

Q: "What makes a campaign setting playable?"

A: Adventure. Intrigue. Don't introduce too many new rules or concepts or large amounts of info dumping right away. Start with what you and your group are familiar with, and build upon that over time. I have made (and still do because of excitement with sharing my worlds) the mistake of large info dumps and making all kinds of new variant rules. All that just takes you out of the game and reminds you that you are looking at a game. It is like reading a novel and then the author stopping just before something good happens and goes on a long tangent (kind of like I'm doing now) about seemingly non-important things that kind of have to do with what is going on, but in actuality you don't really need to know it and you are pretty mad that he took you out of the story and now you have to try to get back into the zone.

That was kind of annoying, right? So simply put, the flavor and history will make your world and setting unique. Keep it simple and full of intrigue to be explored.

The campaign begins with the players trapped in in an imperial prisoner caravan on the yet-to-be-annexed frontier of the empire, which should be a simple enough start. I also plan on arming my players with some working knowledge and basic history of their homelands, which they've been helping design anyway. (for example, Tengu are one of the few societies in the world with firearms; they have flintlocks. this was an idea from my tengu player)

DM-DR wrote:

Q: "What are your recommended practices for worldbuilding?"

A: Include whatever excites you. Borrow ideas from novels, movies, and other settings (only use as inspiration, don't just recreate it). Often times, having one really well-developed area and a few scrapes of other parts will help and save lots of time. As your group wants to go explore, you will have fragments of important details to build upon. Do not rely on making everything right away. Have your world-building be reactive to what is going on in your game sessions.

Yeah, I tried this initially, then realized would be impossible to complete to satisfaction before the campaign begins. Thus I figured a better approach would be to lay out the general political landscape, and then at the end of every session my players decide on where they will be going next. Then I can use the time in between sessions to create wherever they may be going.

DM-DR wrote:
Maps: Pay attention to the movement of Earth's tectonic plates over the previous millions of years. You can get a good idea (and a few ideas) of the geographical elements to your maps.

My map is actually a Dwarf Fortress map (randomly generated by the game) so I'm kind of already stuck with the oddities of DF maps. This has led to me proclaiming that the world is actually an indefinite plane, for example. But I'll see what I can do.

A WIP OF MY MAP Which I've been drawing over in photoshop

DM-DR wrote:
History: Only put in what you feel is important and that you want to include from the beginning. This way, you can have ideas about other stuff, but this will allow you to change your mind. It also allows you to insert important events for a story-line you wish to create that might have conflicted with parts of an extensive history.

That makes sense to me. I can build the most important pieces of history, but I can't build everything at once.

DM-DR wrote:
Languages and Names: I am no linguistic like Tolkien was. That man was a genius. If you feel stuck, try using google translate and random name generators with regional and historical names. There are dozens of them online. Even purely fantasy-based ones. You can use these in full, or to lay a foundation for your own.

I am a linguist with high respect for the art of conlanging, and also a perfectionist and a pedant. I do not feel right using google translate or slapping syllables together (whether doing it myself or having a computer do it for me) to make names. I did in fact give it a try, but I just felt cheap. I will have to make at the very least a naming language before I can feel right. Sorry.

DM-DR wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

A good campaign is a collaboration between players and GMs.
That is 100% true. Always, always, ALWAYS for RPGs.

I agree with this wholeheartedly! c:


Matthew Downie wrote:

One difference between world-building for fiction and for RPGs is that in an RPG you're more likely to have to verbally improvise something on the spot, and unless you write it down you might forget it and become inconsistent over time.

Another is that players will often come up with things for character backstories, and you can weave this into the fabric of the world. It hadn't occurred to me that my country would have travelling circuses, but one of my PCs used to be in a circus, so now it does.

Language tip - take an earth culture that's similar to the culture in your world, and take a name from that, and modify it just slightly. So a name like Jason could become Jagon or Jaquon or Kason or Jasott or Jeeson.

Actually, the idea of Drow as descending from an undercaste originated from my Drow player! :D My players are helping to build this world with me and they've been a great source of ideas.

I don't feel right doing the name thing you suggest though. I would feel almost as cheap doing it as slapping syllables together. I am a perfectionist, pedantic linguist with a passion for name etymologies, after all. The farthest I could go is inserting some real-world names as translation convention, which is what Tolkien himself sometimes did. ('Gandalf' is in fact Old Norse for 'wand elf', for example, and many of the dwarves names are sourced directly from the Vǫluspá)


The black raven wrote:
AtT, your setting sounds very close to melniboné ;-)

My setting originated when I was like 'ok, I should make a setting using the Pathfinder core races', and the first idea I came up with was, 'Elves are haughty, holier-than-thou longshanks and my world is going to reflect that'. Moments later, I had an idea for a slave empire ruled by elves to build my world around.


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BretI wrote:

Here are some things to think about when world building for a campaign.

The first couple of adventures should be introductions to your world. Establish what to expect. An example that I did was having a low level party explore an abandoned tower. They saw movement in the tower windows but couldn't quite make out what was happening. When they finally got into the tower and to that room, the skeleton archers turned around and continued to fire arrows at them.

Except the bow strings had rotted away about a century ago, and they were out of arrows.

It was supposed to be an easy fight and demonstrate how mindless the low level undead were in my world. It accomplished that and gave the players a good laugh.

The areas away from where the PCs are adventuring are still very malleable. Don't be afraid of adjusting things that the PCs haven't seen.

The PCs make mistakes, so should the NPCs. Don't have infallible NPCs that always have good information on everything that happens. Have some things that certain NPC leaders do show a bias based on their personal beliefs. Perhaps it is over dependence on magic, or being too disconnected from those they rule. Make sure your NPCs (hero and villain) have flaws and gaps in their knowledge.

I hope some of this helps.

I love these ideas!

Actually the first thing that I gave my players, the imperial creation story, is basically evil elf propaganda with a lot of false, biased information.

The elves actually believe that the dwarves and halflings conveniently popped out of the ground during a time when the elves were suffering from famine, after they had banished the Drow ancestors, to replace the Drow as farmers and laborers. They also believe that humans are the result of early mating between dwarves and halflings. All of this is, of course, nonsense.


Hmm wrote:

Okay... Here's an example of putting in a little light into your world.

Just about every slave-owning culture that I've read about has some freed slaves who by dint of talent or circumstance have made themselves free. Maybe they even have their own ghetto or neighborhood where multiple generations of freeborn live which is tolerated by the main society because it provides services that cannot be gotten elsewhere. New Orleans, the biggest slave market in the south, also had the largest free "colored" (mixed blood) population that provided all sorts of services that the ruling class could not get elsewhere or purchase from slaves.

What did these sections of New Orleans provide? Everything from bars to artisans to restaurants to Plaçage -- a system of contracted mistresses who would provide a rich male with all the long-term loving companionship he could not get from his actual wife. These ladies were incredibly independent, and thus status symbols for the elite.

I could see a similar neighborhood in your capitol filled with half-elves and others who had earned / inherited their freedom. You can have this area have all sorts of exciting businesses and non-elves who have fulfilling lives -- whether or not they self-identify with the elite.

Having a little light will give your PCs something to invest in and protect. Something that can be threatened, and thus is precious to them.

These are great ideas!

My world actually has various sanctuaries outside of the empire that are home to escaped humans, halflings and (half-)orcs. (Orcs are not usually slaves but they are, sadly, the victims of genocide persecuted by elves, who regard them a monstrous corruption of the elven form) But I hadn't even thought about former slave communities inside the empire before. I'll think about it.

The empire also honestly owns only about a quarter of the world map. Some of the non-elven communities have been raided, but none have been wholely enslaved. Some, especially major political powers such as the Dwarven kingdom complex to the west, are trading partners with the empire.


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My advice for making a world? Use Realm Works. It's quite helpful once you get the hang of it.

It's definitely true, though, that you shouldn't try to write down every detail of every area. XD Focus on what your players are most likely to interact with, and intentionally leave everything else nebulous so that you can adapt it as needed.


GM Rednal wrote:

My advice for making a world? Use Realm Works. It's quite helpful once you get the hang of it.

It's definitely true, though, that you shouldn't try to write down every detail of every area. XD Focus on what your players are most likely to interact with, and intentionally leave everything else nebulous so that you can adapt it as needed.

It's 50 dollars and I don't have a source of income. It looks nice though. c:

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think that a former slave (or freeborn) community within the empire makes a lot of sense, particularly if many of them are half-elves. These sorts of communities seem to blossom in any slave-owning civilization with large cities. The beauty of it is that you can put just about any kind of business you can dream up into one of these neighborhoods, and you can have all sorts of political tension too.

Many freeborn will be pro-empire, identifying more with the elite (who may be parents / patrons / lovers) rather than identifying with the slaves. I'm going to call our guetto the "Foreign Quarter" for now. You might call it something else, like the Twilight district to play on your Sun analogy. A Foreign Quarter can be a place where an escaped slave can blend in with the local population and disappear, so long as no one decides to turn him in. Rents may be cheaper in the Foreign Quarter, meaning that you can have lodging houses that house not only your party, but maybe also slumming / broke / in debt members of the elven elite.

Other businesses:

  • herbalist / witch doctors / curse sellers / alchemists.
  • abortionists
  • magical tattoo artists
  • fortune tellers
  • cock fighting / dueling / bloodsport
  • gambling halls -- genteel or otherwise
  • mobile food stalls (think taco truck) that sell lunch and gossip
  • weaponsmiths
  • forgery artists
  • black market shops with smuggled goods
  • artistic salons or coffee shops with all sorts of revolutionary conspiracy and intellectual debate
  • dance halls (some dance halls in New Orleans had separate rooms where a man might dance with his white wife in one room and then exit for a few minutes so that he could dance with his colored mistress in another. The women didn't shift, but the men did. History is so weird....)

Talk about plot hooks!


Hmm wrote:

I think that a former slave (or freeborn) community within the empire makes a lot of sense, particularly if many of them are half-elves. These sorts of communities seem to blossom in any slave-owning civilization with large cities. The beauty of it is that you can put just about any kind of business you can dream up into one of these neighborhoods, and you can have all sorts of political tension too.

Many freeborn will be pro-empire, identifying more with the elite (who may be parents / patrons / lovers) rather than identifying with the slaves. I'm going to call our guetto the "Foreign Quarter" for now. You might call it something else, like the Twilight district to play on your Sun analogy. A Foreign Quarter can be a place where an escaped slave can blend in with the local population and disappear, so long as no one decides to turn him in. Rents may be cheaper in the Foreign Quarter, meaning that you can have lodging houses that house not only your party, but maybe also slumming / broke / in debt members of the elven elite.

Other businesses:

  • herbalist / witch doctors / curse sellers / alchemists.
  • abortionists
  • magical tattoo artists
  • fortune tellers
  • cock fighting / dueling / bloodsport
  • gambling halls -- genteel or otherwise
  • mobile food stalls (think taco truck) that sell lunch and gossip
  • weaponsmiths
  • forgery artists
  • black market shops with smuggled goods
  • artistic salons or coffee shops with all sorts of revolutionary conspiracy and intellectual debate
  • dance halls (some dance halls in New Orleans had separate rooms where a man might dance with his white wife in one room and then exit for a few minutes so that he could dance with his colored mistress in another. The women didn't shift, but the men did. History is so weird....)

Talk about plot hooks!

Thanks for these excellent ideas!

This is especially helpful to me since I don't actually have a very good understanding of cities. (Migration Period Germanics didn't really have cities)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm glad to be of help.

Ghettoes of this sort depend on several factors for their survival. They thrive anywhere where the elite society is tightly controlled or hemmed in by social or legal expectations that limit their options.

They provide a safety valve where a black market may thrive and where the elite can indulge in activities that are otherwise frowned upon, forbidden or taboo. Generally speaking, any society that is highly regulated will have such safety valves. Japan had the "Floating World" -- special districts that included theater, arts, geisha, and other entertainments.

Think about what the expectations and taboos of your elite are. That will tell you exactly what sort of vices and arts might thrive in your freeborn ghetto.

Similarly, black market economies are often tolerated because they provide services that the ruling class needs but cannot acknowledge that they need. If the empire has trouble with a certain community on their border that has commodities that they need, those commodities will tend to come in through the black market. They don't have to be drugs or "bad" items. Black market items could also be cloth, spices, exotic food stuffs, metals... You can have a lot of fun making a key item that people want a black market item.


Hmm wrote:

I'm glad to be of help.

Ghettoes of this sort depend on several factors for their survival. They thrive anywhere where the elite society is tightly controlled or hemmed in by social or legal expectations that limit their options.

They provide a safety valve where a black market may thrive and where the elite can indulge in activities that are otherwise frowned upon, forbidden or taboo. Generally speaking, any society that is highly regulated will have such safety valves. Japan had the "Floating World" -- special districts that included theater, arts, geisha, and other entertainments.

Think about what the expectations and taboos of your elite are. That will tell you exactly what sort of vices and arts might thrive in your freeborn ghetto.

Similarly, black market economies are often tolerated because they provide services that the ruling class needs but cannot acknowledge that they need. If the empire has trouble with a certain community on their border that has commodities that they need, those commodities will tend to come in through the black market. They don't have to be drugs or "bad" items. Black market items could also be cloth, spices, exotic food stuffs, metals... You can have a lot of fun making a key item that people want a black market item.

Thanks, that's very helpful c:

One idea I'm aware of is that in elven society, it's frowned on to sleep with non-elves, you aren't supposed to stoop that low. Of course, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen anyway, hence --> brothels. Slave rape might not actually be illegal (i'm still deciding on this), it's just heavily frowned on and seen as unbecoming of a respectable elf. So if you have sex slaves, you don't talk about it.

FAKE EDIT: Ok thinking about it a little more, I decided that sex slavery is actually illegal, but it's also a younger law that was made when concern for 'elven purity' became very much in vogue amongst the aristocracy, and is rather poorly enforced. It was frowned upon for a lot longer.

Hence --> sex slave trafficking.

On a side note, most of my players happen to be playing exotic races, in addition to the ordinary dwarf, there are a drow, a tengu, an efreet and a nagaji (assuming the player is in fact switching out their half-orc). Thus I decided they're starting out in a caravan being driven into the empire by mercenaries who are delivering prisoners captured on their travels to an eccentric elven aristocrat who likes to keep exotic races in his house as slaves to entertain him.

Maybe taking prisoners as slaves from societies that are not annexed or being invaded by the empire is actually illegal, under the concern that that could cause unexpected political situations. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen under the table, of course.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Rather than making them the prisoners, have you considered having them be the mercenaries bringing in the cargo? This creates a lot more interesting dynamic as they decide if they would rather get paid or fight for the prisoner's freedom. Sounds like they are a rather exotic band, so if they decide to go against the slavers it should be easier for those loyal to the empire to track them down. If they are on the edge, it is likely that there are partisans that would aid them.


BretI wrote:
Rather than making them the prisoners, have you considered having them be the mercenaries bringing in the cargo? This creates a lot more interesting dynamic as they decide if they would rather get paid or fight for the prisoner's freedom. Sounds like they are a rather exotic band, so if they decide to go against the slavers it should be easier for those loyal to the empire to track them down. If they are on the edge, it is likely that there are partisans that would aid them.

That's an interesting idea, but it wouldn't necessarily be in character for all my pc's. The drow player says their character is not very bright and would totally walk right into a trap set by slavers. I think the drow also has a grudge against the elves and wouldn't aid them. The tengu is friends with the drow and was thus captured with them.

With the possible exception of the efreet who is the most morally ambiguous of the characters. I also don't know that character that well.

Before one of my players said they were thinking about switching out their half-orc warpriest for the nagaji, I envisioned the scenario like this: the horc and the dwarf were travelling when they encountered the caravan, and decided to attack it and free the prisoners. (The warpriest is a passionate abolitionist). The other players would be prisoners.

Now that I think about it, I should probably ask my player more about the efreet so I can determine what his role is in the beginning. Maybe he's one of the mercenaries? That could be interesting.

I decided that the adventure would begin right at the empire's edge, near the recently annexed dwarven kingdom from which my dwarf pc hails (I really need to start coming up with names; hence naming languages = priority), to give my players the choice of either heading into the empire or outward.


Fun fact: Inspired by an incredible Dwarf Fortress letsplay by Joel from Vinesauce, there happens to be an obscure monastic religion of dwarf monks who practice unarmed martial arts and extreme form of discipline.

Legend has it that long ago, a necromancer ravaged a dwarven village, and one guy, who preferred to fight unarmed, took him on. He died in the fight, but when the necromancer brought his body back from the dead, his mindless body continued fighting, and won.

The village celebrated him as a hero, and a monastic order was founded in his memory that devoted itself to practicing the discipline they believed necessary to continue fighting for your people even in death.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If they go out of the Empire, you don't have to worry about the Capitol for a while. If they go into the Empire, you could have fun with your freeborn district.

I will note that if elven purity is a thing, the sex trade in your freeborn district will be huge. Not just sex slaves and brothels, but high-ranking courtesans and mistresses. You can have strict laws / customs against that sort of thing that are largely ignored in that one section of town. New Orleans had sumtuary laws that strictly defined what could be worn by whom, making it illegal for mixed race women to wear certain items. This meant of course that every placée wore forbidden items if she could afford them. Sumtuary laws are near impossible to enforce.

Before you develop this too much, you should see where your PCs want to head. In Sandbox scenarios, it can be very frustrating to drop a great plot hook in front of your PCs and watch every PC pass it by...

Figure out what their motivations are, and it will be easier to craft stuff specifically for them.


That's a good point.

I was thinking that in elven society, compulsory heterosexuality and assigned sex might not really be a thing, but specifically for elves. Elves are free to sleep and form unions with fellow elves of any gender, and they are free to change gender performances as they wish, but it is 'impure' for elves to shag like rabbits, as that is seen as a lowly human or halfling habit.

The sexuality of half-elves, which live as second-class citizens, is much more restricted. They're discouraged from having children with fullblooded elves.

Heterosexuality and assigned gender roles are compulsory on slaves.

Those aspects are still in the works.


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I have noticed a lot of fantasy writers use their fantasy races to express their own racial prejudices: take a look at some Robert Howard books, and you will see what I mean. It's out-of-genre, but if you mention Robert Howard, you have to mention HP Lovecraft. The inbred New England family that degenerated into a race of man-eating mole people, the fishing village that began having sexual relations with a race of sea monster people, and the narrative found out that he was one of those half-breeds. Poor Arthur Jermyn who immolated himself when he found out that is mysterious Great Grandmother was one of a race of White Gorillas from the Congo.

And while I hesitate to paint Tolkein as racist, he did have a way of just declaring that some people were better than other people. Elves were just a superior race. Orcs were nothing fecund and vicious people who were barely people at all. Aragorn wasn't some regular, base human, he was among the last of the ancient line of Numinoreans, that mighty seafaring empire that was destroyed by its own hubris. He wasn't making a big deal out of it, but I get the distinct sense that Tokein was watching the might of his own mighty, seafaring island empire fade into memory as they are forced to play kingmaker, choosing which of the warring peoples will establish the next great empire, guiding them a little as his own empire gracefully diminishes.

And how many of our fantasy heroes have destroyed "evil books?" In my world, burning books is something Nazis do! And in my book, there is no such thing as forbidden knowledge that humans should not know. But that happens a lot in fantasy worlds!

A lot of gamers think nothing of the casual racism and and acts of violence justified by their prejudicial hatred. I have seen plenty of Paladins and Clerics using deadly force against someone for no other reason than "he performed an evil act," or "she's a lich." In my own life, I have known quite a few evil people, and I have not killed a single one of them. And I just don't think that makes me a bad person.

Now, it has been said to me that killing evil creatures in Golorion just because they are evil is just fine because Golorion is a fantasy world that has absolute good and absolute evil, and what good guys are supposed to do is kill the evil guys. That may be so, but I still find it to be a disturbing narrative. And I think it's a disturbing notion that people see fantasy games as a safe place to give voice to their racial and religious hatred, even if it is just racism against orcs and just the religious persecution of the followers of Uragothoa or Vecna. Maybe it's cathartic: maybe players are self medicating on fantasy to work out their racial hatred and religious intolerance so they don't bring it into the real world. Maybe.

You, Aniuś the Talewise, seem to be doing an interesting thing, turning elves into the slaveholding landlords of nature subjugating all the other races. Are the Drow good-aligned in your campaign, or are they as evil as the Githyanki and Duergar who fought so hard to free themselves from the Mind Flayers?

Are all the elves in your campaign like that, or is is just a single elf nation? Or do the elves control vast plantation-economy colonial empires like like the Europeans, accidentally causing the genocide of local halfling and gnome populations and bringing over boatloads of Drow from the Dark Contintent? Persecuting Dwarves because in ancient times the Dwarves killed the Elven Savior, but still tolerating their presence because according to the Elvish religion, it is a sin to loan money for interest, but since Dwarves don't have a problem with that, they are the Elves' only source of lending capital, and when any community of Dwarves becomes too wealthy and start doing things like owning land, the Elves can just have a pogrom and kill all the Dwarves!

Anyway, I am looking forward to seeing what you do with fantasy races and cultures in your world.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I have noticed a lot of fantasy writers use their fantasy races to express their own racial prejudices: take a look at some Robert Howard books, and you will see what I mean. It's out-of-genre, but if you mention Robert Howard, you have to mention HP Lovecraft. The inbred New England family that degenerated into a race of man-eating mole people, the fishing village that began having sexual relations with a race of sea monster people, and the narrative found out that he was one of those half-breeds. Poor Arthur Jermyn who immolated himself when he found out that is mysterious Great Grandmother was one of a race of White Gorillas from the Congo.

And while I hesitate to paint Tolkein as racist, he did have a way of just declaring that some people were better than other people. Elves were just a superior race. Orcs were nothing fecund and vicious people who were barely people at all. Aragorn wasn't some regular, base human, he was among the last of the ancient line of Numinoreans, that mighty seafaring empire that was destroyed by its own hubris. He wasn't making a big deal out of it, but I get the distinct sense that Tokein was watching the might of his own mighty, seafaring island empire fade into memory as they are forced to play kingmaker, choosing which of the warring peoples will establish the next great empire, guiding them a little as his own empire gracefully diminishes.

And how many of our fantasy heroes have destroyed "evil books?" In my world, burning books is something Nazis do! And in my book, there is no such thing as forbidden knowledge that humans should not know. But that happens a lot in fantasy worlds!

A lot of gamers think nothing of the casual racism and and acts of violence justified by their prejudicial hatred. I have seen plenty of Paladins and Clerics using deadly force against someone for no other reason than "he performed an evil act," or "she's a lich." In my own life, I have known quite a few evil people, and I have not killed a single one of them. And I just...

Some excellent insights there. I use much of that credo in my own sandbox town, where all actions have consequences, the politics is never quite black and white, and the reasons why things happened are far more complex than they appear to be superficially.

Sovereign Court

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
And while I hesitate to paint Tolkein as racist, he did have a way of just declaring that some people were better than other people. Elves were just a superior race. Orcs were nothing fecund and vicious people who were barely people at all. Aragorn wasn't some regular, base human, he was among the last of the ancient line of Numinoreans, that mighty seafaring empire that was destroyed by its own hubris. He wasn't making a big deal out of it, but I get the distinct sense that Tokein was watching the might of his own mighty, seafaring island empire fade into memory as they are forced to play kingmaker, choosing which of the warring peoples will establish the next great empire, guiding them a little as his own empire gracefully diminishes.

There was a bit of that - but it wasn't a racist thing. It was an old world into a modern industrial world thing. Due, in large part to his WWI experiences, Tolkein had a whole anti-industry vibe. The Hobbit even talked about the machines that goblins would someday make which would kill hundreds or thousands at a time.

Elves represented all that was good & awesome of the old world with craftsmen/nobility etc.

Halflings represented being a comfortably wealthy country gentleman. (All but Samwise of the main characters don't actually work. Tolkein glossed over how said work was actually done.)

Orcs/goblins represented industry - making things 'efficiently' in factories rather than with artistry and care. Smog and waste etc.

Of course - Tolkein came from the gentry of England, and like many early 20th century fans of craftsman houses etc, he didn't like to think about the billions who used to die from famine etc due to no industry etc. :P


On cities (and settlements in general):

Why is the settlement where it is? Is it a port, river crossing, crossroads? Is it near mines or quarries, farmland, livestock, timber, (salt!)? A religious centre or place of learning? Is it a centre for a trade like making weapons or pottery or leather goods?

Where do the inhabitants get food, water and building materials from? If imported are there large roads or rivers? What's sold in the markets?

Next, think about the first places your PCs normally want coming into town, normally an inn, possibly a temple for healing, and markets. If they're likely to get into trouble with authorities, how is it policed, and what are typical punishments? (Prisons, forced labour, being put into stocks etc). Is there a militia, army (possibly mercenary), or troops from outside?

As for names, don't be embarrassed to use obvious endings like -bridge, -market, -cross, -mouth, -port, -ton, variations on borough or burgh or burg. And North-, South, etc. Whatever language you use it will add consistancy.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:


You, Aniuś the Talewise, seem to be doing an interesting thing, turning elves into the slaveholding landlords of nature subjugating all the other races. Are the Drow good-aligned in your campaign, or are they as evil as the Githyanki and Duergar who fought so hard to free themselves from the Mind Flayers?

Are all the elves in your campaign like that, or is is just a single elf nation? Or do the elves control vast plantation-economy colonial empires like like the Europeans, accidentally causing the genocide of local halfling and gnome populations and bringing over boatloads of Drow from the Dark Contintent? Persecuting Dwarves because in ancient times the Dwarves killed the Elven Savior, but still tolerating their presence because according to the Elvish religion, it is a sin to loan money for interest, but since Dwarves don't have a problem with that, they are the Elves' only source of lending capital, and when any community of Dwarves becomes too wealthy and start doing things like owning land, the Elves can just have a pogrom and kill all the Dwarves!

Anyway, I am looking forward to seeing what you do with fantasy races and cultures in your world.

Yeah, I really wanted to turn that trope of 'haughty and superior but good and benevolent' traditionally surrounding the elves in western fantasy on its head. Thus, you get the Sun Elves of my world. I've taken the haughtiness of elves to its logical end.

Drow, like all other races, are complex. They live underground and get mostly what they need from the subterranean flora and fauna, and the higher-elevation tribes of drow have interesting relationships with dwarves that they may encounter. Some drow are allies with some dwarves, others maintain a cool distance, Some have wars, and so on. They are not evil by virtue of being drow. They tend to be very defensive of their own people and homelands, but they're generally not out to kill anyone. Like any other race, though, you do get the oddball.

Yep, it's really just one elven empire that's a serious problem. There are various wood elven kingdoms that do not have the same supremacy problems that the sun elves do, altho the sun elves constantly try to indoctrinate them and the elf supremacist attitudes have been picked up by some of the wood elven upper classes.

The sun elven empire, of course, is expansionist and colonialist, but the current empress is taking her time with it.

Directly west of the heart of the elf empire there is a massive dwarf kingdom complex (an alliance of high kings) which is the single great dwarven power in this part of the world. The elf empire has maintained profitable trade relations with these kingdoms for generations (dwarven and elven generations), but the relationship is politically complex and quite cool. The Empress wants nothing less but to actually own the kingdoms instead of just trading with them, but it would be destructive to try to conquer them with military force. Instead she uses sly economic and cultural manipulation to make the kingdoms increasingly dependent on her.

In the past decade, she recently annexed and enslaved a small dwarf kingdom (not part of the complex) to the southeast, which of course people in the western kingdom complex find a troubling bad omen.

So yeah those are some ideas I have so far.


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Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:

On cities (and settlements in general):

Why is the settlement where it is? Is it a port, river crossing, crossroads? Is it near mines or quarries, farmland, livestock, timber, (salt!)? A religious centre or place of learning? Is it a centre for a trade like making weapons or pottery or leather goods?

Where do the inhabitants get food, water and building materials from? If imported are there large roads or rivers? What's sold in the markets?

Next, think about the first places your PCs normally want coming into town, normally an inn, possibly a temple for healing, and markets. If they're likely to get into trouble with authorities, how is it policed, and what are typical punishments? (Prisons, forced labour, being put into stocks etc). Is there a militia, army (possibly mercenary), or troops from outside?

As for names, don't be embarrassed to use obvious endings like -bridge, -market, -cross, -mouth, -port, -ton, variations on borough or burgh or burg. And North-, South, etc. Whatever language you use it will add consistancy.

That. Economy and ecology can be very good things to think about when you are running a campaign.

Not everybody cares: lots of players go onto an island where every single animal seems to be a dangerous predator, and no one wonders how they all eat. Lot's of dungeons just have rooms with monsters and treasure, and nobody gives a thought as to how they eat, either. "There is a 30' square room with a young, black dragon sitting on top of a modest-sized pile of treasure" right next to a "10' square room with a single orc with spear guarding a chest." But a good time might be had by all even without such rich details.

But the Chief Cook and Bottle Washer is describing the kind of campaign I want to run.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:

On cities (and settlements in general):

Why is the settlement where it is? Is it a port, river crossing, crossroads? Is it near mines or quarries, farmland, livestock, timber, (salt!)? A religious centre or place of learning? Is it a centre for a trade like making weapons or pottery or leather goods?

Where do the inhabitants get food, water and building materials from? If imported are there large roads or rivers? What's sold in the markets?

Next, think about the first places your PCs normally want coming into town, normally an inn, possibly a temple for healing, and markets. If they're likely to get into trouble with authorities, how is it policed, and what are typical punishments? (Prisons, forced labour, being put into stocks etc). Is there a militia, army (possibly mercenary), or troops from outside?

As for names, don't be embarrassed to use obvious endings like -bridge, -market, -cross, -mouth, -port, -ton, variations on borough or burgh or burg. And North-, South, etc. Whatever language you use it will add consistancy.

That. Economy and ecology can be very good things to think about when you are running a campaign.

Not everybody cares: lots of players go onto an island where every single animal seems to be a dangerous predator, and no one wonders how they all eat. Lot's of dungeons just have rooms with monsters and treasure, and nobody gives a thought as to how they eat, either. "There is a 30' square room with a young, black dragon sitting on top of a modest-sized pile of treasure" right next to a "10' square room with a single orc with spear guarding a chest." But a good time might be had by all even without such rich details.

But the Chief Cook and Bottle Washer is describing the kind of campaign I want to run.

Yes!!!! I agree wholeheartedly with the above. What do people eat? Why does this dungeon exist. What is it for? Who lived there in the past? Who's living there now? Why is there stuff there and how did it get there? Etc and so forth. That is how I do dungeons and other sites.


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Aniuś the Talewise wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:

On cities (and settlements in general):

Why is the settlement where it is? Is it a port, river crossing, crossroads? Is it near mines or quarries, farmland, livestock, timber, (salt!)? A religious centre or place of learning? Is it a centre for a trade like making weapons or pottery or leather goods?

Where do the inhabitants get food, water and building materials from? If imported are there large roads or rivers? What's sold in the markets?

Next, think about the first places your PCs normally want coming into town, normally an inn, possibly a temple for healing, and markets. If they're likely to get into trouble with authorities, how is it policed, and what are typical punishments? (Prisons, forced labour, being put into stocks etc). Is there a militia, army (possibly mercenary), or troops from outside?

As for names, don't be embarrassed to use obvious endings like -bridge, -market, -cross, -mouth, -port, -ton, variations on borough or burgh or burg. And North-, South, etc. Whatever language you use it will add consistancy.

That. Economy and ecology can be very good things to think about when you are running a campaign.

Not everybody cares: lots of players go onto an island where every single animal seems to be a dangerous predator, and no one wonders how they all eat. Lot's of dungeons just have rooms with monsters and treasure, and nobody gives a thought as to how they eat, either. "There is a 30' square room with a young, black dragon sitting on top of a modest-sized pile of treasure" right next to a "10' square room with a single orc with spear guarding a chest." But a good time might be had by all even without such rich details.

But the Chief Cook and Bottle Washer is describing the kind of campaign I want to run.

Yes!!!! I agree wholeheartedly with the above. What do people eat? Why does this dungeon exist. What is it for? Who lived there in the past? Who's living there now? Why is there stuff...

The thing to remember is that the history makes it easier for you to build and to add details on the spur of the moment. Your players may not be at all interested and that doesn't matter.

With care you can drop in things like remains of rails and broken mine carts in a disused mine, or they might recognise dwarven or halfling architecture, but don't force it on them


If Anyone is interested, I'm streaming myself drawing the world map for this campaign!

WATH ME DRAW TINY TREES


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Here's the start of my sandbox town if anyone wants a look. It contains about 20% of what I have written up so far, and I'm still writing, so a long way to go.

There are loads more photographs, maps and illustrations still to be added, but hey, I'm a busy man.

http://quest.foolsjourney.co.uk


WORK IN PROGRESS MAP OF SUN'S GARDEN

Most trees are so far done, with some patches of rainforest left to go.

I'm drawing on top of a dwarf fortress map.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

We've talked about worldbuilding, but let's touch on the most challenging aspect of sandbox games -- motivating your players to do stuff.

In most of the sandbox games I've played or gm'ed, there are one or two players that dominate and lead the game because they tend to be the only ones with ideas, and the only ones who initiate.

You are going to want to have some mechanism to bring everyone in to certain adventure plots. One of the problems with having the PCs be slaves is that slaves who escape are not going to want to go to the Capitol where they were being dragged. They are going to want to go in another direction entirely.

One way to possibly bring them all back together would depend on how they are being organized. Are they going to be a mercenary group, that takes on assignments / challenges / tasks?

I love the conceit of Pathfinder Society games that all the players are agents on assignment, because it can get you in the adventure quickly. What mechanisms are you going to use to get your players into adventure if they become mired down, indecisive or unwilling to initiate their own investigations into your plot hooks?

Hmm


Hmm wrote:

We've talked about worldbuilding, but let's touch on the most challenging aspect of sandbox games -- motivating your players to do stuff.

In most of the sandbox games I've played or gm'ed, there are one or two players that dominate and lead the game because they tend to be the only ones with ideas, and the only ones who initiate.

You are going to want to have some mechanism to bring everyone in to certain adventure plots. One of the problems with having the PCs be slaves is that slaves who escape are not going to want to go to the Capitol where they were being dragged. They are going to want to go in another direction entirely.

One way to possibly bring them all back together would depend on how they are being organized. Are they going to be a mercenary group, that takes on assignments / challenges / tasks?

I love the conceit of Pathfinder Society games that all the players are agents on assignment, because it can get you in the adventure quickly. What mechanisms are you going to use to get your players into adventure if they become mired down, indecisive or unwilling to initiate their own investigations into your plot hooks?

Hmm

My problem is the exact opposite. I have six or seven players in my sandbox, and they're all invested... just not in the same plot hook at the same time. Keeping the party together? Oh, I've given up on that.

On the problem of getting freed slaves to go to the slavers' capital, a strong narrative reason should be relatively easy. They have freed themselves but their queen or some legendary fighter remains a captive perhaps? Maybe they have to find some piece of jewellery that they have to sling at a volcano.


Hmm wrote:

We've talked about worldbuilding, but let's touch on the most challenging aspect of sandbox games -- motivating your players to do stuff.

In most of the sandbox games I've played or gm'ed, there are one or two players that dominate and lead the game because they tend to be the only ones with ideas, and the only ones who initiate.

You are going to want to have some mechanism to bring everyone in to certain adventure plots. One of the problems with having the PCs be slaves is that slaves who escape are not going to want to go to the Capitol where they were being dragged. They are going to want to go in another direction entirely.

One way to possibly bring them all back together would depend on how they are being organized. Are they going to be a mercenary group, that takes on assignments / challenges / tasks?

I love the conceit of Pathfinder Society games that all the players are agents on assignment, because it can get you in the adventure quickly. What mechanisms are you going to use to get your players into adventure if they become mired down, indecisive or unwilling to initiate their own investigations into your plot hooks?

Hmm

Hmm ;)

I don't want to push my players to go to the Capitol if they don't want to, and it really is up to them where they want to go after freeing themselves from the caravan (they can take over the caravan too, if they want, which should help with traveling and carrying extra gear, and the mercenaries may also have some loot they may want to sell after taking it over). The mercenaries also weren't actually going to the capitol itself but to a manor held by some elf lord, known to pay a hefty sum for "exotic captures".

The game deliberately starts out on the frontier of the empire, so that players have the choice of heading into imperial territory or heading out into (as-yet) unclaimed land. The starting point also happens to be near a small dwarven kingdom that was recently conquered and annexed by the elves within the past decade. one of my players, the dwarf, is actually from this kingdom. He used to live in a fort that was conquered by the elves, and was driven out. Thus, the kingdom may actually be one of their first destinations as the dwarf may have strong motivation to take some revenge.

It is up to the players how they wish to organize themselves. Two of the characters are already friends and were traveling together when they were captured before game start, and the nagaji is very friendly and protective.

As for the problem of players dominating the game, I will certainly keep that in mind. A friend of mine (who also plays the dwarf) has a GM trick in which he will ask the players in order what they are going to do. I will use that since otherwise I have noticed that players have a habit of talking over each other. Since one of the players has a very quiet mic, that could pose a problem and I don't want any players to feel talked over or left out.


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Aniuś the Talewise wrote:

Yes!!!! I agree wholeheartedly with the above. What do people eat? Why does this dungeon exist. What is it for? Who lived there in the past? Who's living there now? Why is there stuff...

Incidentally, these questions are answered in Rappan Athuk. A dungeon isn't just a chamber of treasure-filled rooms - it's an entire ecosystem, and adventurers are often on the menu... XD


Aniuś the Talewise wrote:
As for the problem of players dominating the game, I will certainly keep that in mind. A friend of mine (who also plays the dwarf) has a GM trick in which he will ask the players in order what they are going to do. I will use that since otherwise I have noticed that players have a habit of talking over each other. Since one of the players has a very quiet mic, that could pose a problem and I don't want any players to feel talked over or left out.

This is a problem I've had with a player. In everyone else's turn he's asking questions about things that happened during his last turn, and yet on his next turn he hasn't used the intervening time to plan his next action. It gets at least one player at the table frustrated.

I am instigating an egg timer and notepad rule.

On your turn you get three minutes maximum. That should be more than enough time. After your turn is up, if you have further questions you write them down and raise them immediately before your three minutes. If your questions are important enough to be dealt with before your next turn, then you need to be raising them in your three minutes. There is leeway in it- if for instance two players want to share 6 minutes- but as my party are often separated it's not fair for the half orc wizard adventuring down the mine interrupts the turn of the charlatan who is halfway up the outside of a tower three miles away.


foolsjourney wrote:
Aniuś the Talewise wrote:
As for the problem of players dominating the game, I will certainly keep that in mind. A friend of mine (who also plays the dwarf) has a GM trick in which he will ask the players in order what they are going to do. I will use that since otherwise I have noticed that players have a habit of talking over each other. Since one of the players has a very quiet mic, that could pose a problem and I don't want any players to feel talked over or left out.

This is a problem I've had with a player. In everyone else's turn he's asking questions about things that happened during his last turn, and yet on his next turn he hasn't used the intervening time to plan his next action. It gets at least one player at the table frustrated.

I am instigating an egg timer and notepad rule.

On your turn you get three minutes maximum. That should be more than enough time. After your turn is up, if you have further questions you write them down and raise them immediately before your three minutes. If your questions are important enough to be dealt with before your next turn, then you need to be raising them in your three minutes. There is leeway in it- if for instance two players want to share 6 minutes- but as my party are often separated it's not fair for the half orc wizard adventuring down the mine interrupts the turn of the charlatan who is halfway up the outside of a tower three miles away.

I am that player. I'm autistic and I also have really bad adhd, so I forget stuff, my attention drifts and I lose my train of thought a lot. I also have at least two other players with learning disabilities. One of them has dyscalculia and literally can't do math.

Your three minute rule sounds useful, although in my case I might extend it to 5 minutes, see how that works out and adjust accordingly.

My group also plays over skype chat and roll20.net, an online tabletop software.

EDIT: On second thought, I might just keep it 3, see how well that works out, and stretch it out if needed.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It sounds like you have a good overall plan for handling sandbox issues. I hope your game turns out well and that everyone stays invested! You've got a great premise.

If there are any other ideas that you want to brainstorm for your world, let me know.

Best wishes!

Hmm


Hmm wrote:

It sounds like you have a good overall plan for handling sandbox issues. I hope your game turns out well and that everyone stays invested! You've got a great premise.

If there are any other ideas that you want to brainstorm for your world, let me know.

Best wishes!

Hmm

Thank you! c:


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Aniuś the Talewise wrote:

I am that player. I'm autistic and I also have really bad adhd, so I forget stuff, my attention drifts and I lose my train of thought a lot. I also have at least two other players with learning disabilities. One of them has dyscalculia and literally can't do math.

Your three minute rule sounds useful, although in my case I might extend it to 5 minutes, see how that works out and adjust accordingly.
My group also plays over skype chat and roll20.net, an online tabletop software.
EDIT: On second thought, I might just keep it 3, see how well that works out, and...

The compromise is that the have 2 minutes to talk through and clarify what went before and start their actions, then 3 minutes to complete.

To be clear, it isn't done to penalise, but in a table with 7 players around, it's no fun for anyone to only get one turn every 30 minutes at best. So it gets players to think before their turn, or graciously defer to the next player (a little like readying an action) to keep the action going.

The notepads help for the subsequent sessions too as I'm often keeping track of three different simultaneous parties- not recommended for this old DM with fading powers of recollection.


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Aniuś the Talewise wrote:

For my first actual Campaign as a GM, I decided to create my own setting and play in somewhat of a sandbox-style manner. This is my second serious foray into worldbuilding, my first, the world of giants, being spun-off my own fiction and not for an RPG (although adapting pathfinder for my world seems like it would be fun c: ).

I'm new to actual worldbuilding, however I've been studying anthropology, linguistics, cultures and history, especially the migration period and viking age, and historical Germanic linguistics, for years. So any experience I may have in how societies work comes from a historical and anthropological perspective.

What I've so far discovered is that probably the best way to develop Sun's Garden is through the adventures themselves, which is how apparently Greyhawk and Blackmoor were developed back in the day (according to the Paizo blog), and how Golarion is developed as well.

I've also discovered that using Dwarf Fortress to randomly generate a world map (ignoring blessed/cursed lands and DF civilizations) may not have been a good idea, but the map stuck.

Very quickly, naming languages became necessary, as I do not feel right slapping syllables together and calling it a name (being a details-obsessed linguist with an old passion for name etymologies), but I could not call the Empress 'the Empress' forever, and of course NPCs and places need names and can't always use English words (eg. 'Sun's Haven') Thus, I'm working on one right now. Maybe later I can develop the naming languages into full-fledged conlangs.

I guess this thread is here to ask for advice. What, in your view, differs when worldbuilding for an RPG, than when worldbuilding in general? What makes a campaign setting playable? What are your recommended practices for worldbuilding?

I pick various real world languages for different areas which I can then use translate to come up with names for places which I can tweak and modify, but tend to have a unified feel to them.


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RDM42 wrote:
Aniuś the Talewise wrote:

For my first actual Campaign as a GM, I decided to create my own setting and play in somewhat of a sandbox-style manner. This is my second serious foray into worldbuilding, my first, the world of giants, being spun-off my own fiction and not for an RPG (although adapting pathfinder for my world seems like it would be fun c: ).

I'm new to actual worldbuilding, however I've been studying anthropology, linguistics, cultures and history, especially the migration period and viking age, and historical Germanic linguistics, for years. So any experience I may have in how societies work comes from a historical and anthropological perspective.

What I've so far discovered is that probably the best way to develop Sun's Garden is through the adventures themselves, which is how apparently Greyhawk and Blackmoor were developed back in the day (according to the Paizo blog), and how Golarion is developed as well.

I've also discovered that using Dwarf Fortress to randomly generate a world map (ignoring blessed/cursed lands and DF civilizations) may not have been a good idea, but the map stuck.

Very quickly, naming languages became necessary, as I do not feel right slapping syllables together and calling it a name (being a details-obsessed linguist with an old passion for name etymologies), but I could not call the Empress 'the Empress' forever, and of course NPCs and places need names and can't always use English words (eg. 'Sun's Haven') Thus, I'm working on one right now. Maybe later I can develop the naming languages into full-fledged conlangs.

I guess this thread is here to ask for advice. What, in your view, differs when worldbuilding for an RPG, than when worldbuilding in general? What makes a campaign setting playable? What are your recommended practices for worldbuilding?

I pick various real world languages for different areas which I can then use translate to come up with names for places which I can tweak and modify, but tend to have a unified feel to them.

I can be quite frivolous with my names. One of the player's little brothers was playing with a wooden bokken attacking dandelions, spreading the seeds in great clouds all over, and he gets immortalized in the form of a magic sword that is useable by druids only.

I've named characters after war heroes and porn stars. I made one character who was a girl born in the year of the Fire Horse (It's bad to be a Chinese girl born on a Fire Horse year.)

Don't be surprised if you run into the queen of the harpies and find out that she is named after the big girl who bullied me on the school bus. Or that the vampire luring maidens to their deaths has the same name as the @&&hole who lived down the hall who treated his girlfriends like dirt, but the girls all flocked to him anyway.


RDM42 wrote:
I pick various real world languages for different areas which I can then use translate to come up with names for places which I can tweak and modify, but tend to have a unified feel to them.

Depending on what name my player comes up with for their Tengu, I might literally just use Japanese for Tengu names.

Which actually seems likely since that player has studied Japanese folklore and has requested a portrayal of Tengu faithful to folklore.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Aniuś the Talewise wrote:
I guess this thread is here to ask for advice. What, in your view, differs when worldbuilding for an RPG, than when worldbuilding in general? What makes a campaign setting playable? What are your recommended practices for worldbuilding?

Personally, I prefer a two-phased approach:

1) Start with the overarching cosmological and thematic decisions: What deities, or the equivalent, are extant in the setting (a thumbnail-sketch of alignment, portfolio/domains, and some basic dogma)? How are the planes laid out/function (again, just some basics; you can keep the standard or possibly just modify it slightly)? How does magic work (basically, which magic using classes are available; does arcane and divine magic work differently, so that arcane requires preparation and divine is spontaneous casting or vice versa? Note that the OGL versions of prestige bard, paladin, and ranger can be adapted if you want prepared casting bards or spontaneous paladins and rangers. Will you be using psychic magic, or maybe just the kineticist, from the recently released Occult Adventures?)? What races and cultural-equivalents are part of the setting (what race/archetype options are available)? In many cases, it's probably easier to allow/deny already published material on a case-by-case basis than to create something from scratch and/or try to retrofit a concept that violates existing setting details ("No, you can't play a gunslinger/spellslinger in this Bronze Age inspired setting").

2) Once the "big picture" outline is in place to provide a foundation, start with developing a small area (a single town, small barony, and the immediate region, for instance) for the PCs to start their explorations; then build outward from there. In some cases, the development may cause additions/modifications to the "big picture," but usually not severe ones; because you already have the overarching structure in place, you can make a lot of decisions more easily based on the existing cosmology/themes.

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