lemeres |
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You don't need anything else other than game mechanic balance to justify a high or low save.
Plus, a Bard will always have lower will saves than a monk. The bard dumps Wisdom and the Monk pumps it.
Usually, without including magic items, you are looking at a +7 save for the bard and a +9 save for the Monk. With items it's even higher for the Monk, cause he wants the headband of wisdom and the bard doesn't. (EDIT: Also, there's the Still Mind bonus on top of that too. In the end, the Monk is +4 over the Bard, +6 against mind-affecting, if equally geared, against mind-affecting effects, even if the Bard does have Well-Versed to compensate.)
Also, most Monks have the feats to pick up Iron Will and Spiritual Balance, which increases their Will-based defenses dramatically.YOU CAN'T JUST COMPARE TWO CLASS CHASSISES (chasses?). As a whole, the UnMonk ends up being a great package and much more mentally resistant than the Bard.
...or...y'know...I don't min max to such a large extent? If I don't run with 7 wis, I would have that same +9, wouldn't I?
I mean...if I go with a melee character wtih a casting stat, I usually go with 16/14/14/14/10x2. I don't think I am making an extreme statement with this, or that I am making wizards that dumped int and pumped str here. Is it bad to not completely dump one of your saves (and will at that) at level 1? Is it bad to not be as vulnerable as a 10 wis fighter early on?
And again...I don't like unchained because it comes on the heels of ACG (didn't we only just get the errata for that?) and it offers 'solutions' to problems that paizo had already addressed in ACG with slayer, brawler/pummeling style.
Offering a 'solution', and ultimately not going anywhere seems like a bad thing. ACG mad major head way; Unchained just rewrote core so it is closer to ACG, at least in terms of general power (you can always argue the exact balance of abilities, but this scale is close enough that it needs close examination).
Secret Wizard |
I don't think Pummeling Style was a solution, I think it's a band-aid.
I think that the UnMonk, thanks to Flying Kick, has opened up a whole lot more possible builds.
...or...y'know...I don't min max to such a large extent? If I don't run with 7 wis, I would have that same +9, wouldn't I?I mean...if I go with a melee character wtih a casting stat, I usually go with 16/14/14/14/10x2. I don't think I am making an extreme statement with this, or that I am making wizards that dumped int and pumped str here. Is it bad to not completely dump one of your saves (and will at that) at level 1? Is it bad to not be as vulnerable as a 10 wis fighter early on?
I was talking about a Bard with 8 WIS, which isn't too min-maxy, just a sensible decision considering they have good Will saves and Perception as a class skill. I generally don't dump below 8.
16/14/14/14/10/10 after racials you mean? 'Cause otherwise that's 25 point buy, in which case I can make an even better Monk.
I usually talk in 20 point buy terms.
But just for the record, I usually build just like that, except I dump something to 8 to put a 15 on one of the stats so I get an immediate power boost at 4th level. Just a preference thing I guess. Works well with the Monk to get 16 WIS at level 4th, which is when you get the Ki Pool.
I've DM'd both original and unchained monk (same player as well), and ... there wasn't really any major improvement aside from "Flurry is now comprehend-able", which admittedly is a good thing. But it isn't enough.
The UnMonk should be hitting harder, honestly. Did he go with Pummeling Style or DEX? Those are largely overshadowed by the STR builds that rely on Flying Kick.
Anyway, I'd like to hear more about your game! In which ways has the UnMonk been lacking?
lemeres |
Quote:
...or...y'know...I don't min max to such a large extent? If I don't run with 7 wis, I would have that same +9, wouldn't I?I mean...if I go with a melee character wtih a casting stat, I usually go with 16/14/14/14/10x2. I don't think I am making an extreme statement with this, or that I am making wizards that dumped int and pumped str here. Is it bad to not completely dump one of your saves (and will at that) at level 1? Is it bad to not be as vulnerable as a 10 wis fighter early on?
I was talking about a Bard with 8 WIS, which isn't too min-maxy, just a sensible decision considering they have good Will saves and Perception as a class skill. I generally don't dump below 8.
16/14/14/14/10/10 after racials you mean? 'Cause otherwise that's 25 point buy, in which case I can make an even better Monk.
I usually talk in 20 point buy terms.
Post racials on 20 point buy, yes. I try for 'decent hitting stat', and then enough to not immediately worry about other powers.
While not always optimal, it is a fairly solid basis for most gish-y types.
Secret Wizard |
Yeah, those are fine though I'd recommend 18 post racials on Strength if you plan to use two-handed weapons.
The Monk will still have higher Will saves, though, in general, because of a much higher Wisdom and Iron Will and Spiritual Balance in most builds. Can't imagine a build that wouldn't benefit from those, and I find it hard to imagine a non-Dexterity-based build that was missing the feats.
Rynjin |
I'd recommend looking at the Unchaining the Unchained Monk thread.
I really should finish polishing that some time.
lemeres |
Yeah, those are fine though I'd recommend 18 post racials on Strength if you plan to use two-handed weapons.
The Monk will still have higher Will saves, though, in general, because of a much higher Wisdom and Iron Will and Spiritual Balance in most builds. Can't imagine a build that wouldn't benefit from those, and I find it hard to imagine a non-Dexterity-based build that was missing the feats.
yes...but again, it all comes down to dumps, doesn't it? To keep all my secondary stats up to snuff, I would have to dump tertiary stats. It would require me to dump something down to 7, and still dump another stat while I am at it.
17 is usually the most I would go for, since you can accomplish it with just one 8. It can be brought up to 18 at level 4.
Gishes tend to have hard choices to make compared to more SAD classes. I choose to be rather moderate.
BadBird |
The problem with it being limited is that it is limited to the point where many of the options are virtually never used. A level 8 monk with 14 starting wisdom and a +2 headband has 7 Ki points. If they want to keep DR penetration on their fists, that's 6 points. Barkskin(pretty much standard for a Umonk)...5 points. 4 if you want a backup use. So there are 2 other Ki powers and a bonus attack competing for 4 ki points. If the monk forgets about their other Ki powers and only uses the bonus attack feature, they get about 1 extra swing per combat. That's...pretty pathetic. Paladins can smite almost as much as that, and Smite Evil>>>>>>1 extra swing. God forbid if the monk actually wants to do things like not care about a fear effect or bump up AC a bit.
I do wish that the Monk had a little more Ki to play with - my typical M/O for a Monk is generally Dual Talent Human for extra wisdom, and I'm not above burning a spare feat on +2 Ki.
But to be fair, the Paladin's Smite Evil is his core combat ability and usable 3/day at 8, while the UcMonk's core combat ability of making extra attacks without penalty is always on and rather dangerous as well. Compare the UcMonk's Ki with the level 8 Paladin's base spellcasting: Level 1: 1/day. Level 2: 1/day. Even assuming that it's 2/2 from charisma it's still slim, and many of his spell options are virtually never used. Perhaps worst of all, the Paladin has to prepare spells, so whatever 2 they pick - and that's if they're willing to diversify with 2 - that's it. However meagre the Monk's Ki, they get to pick the moment when they need to make that last attack to finish off a target, or put up a defense because they're about to eat a dangerous full attack, or suggest to the Barbarian that they really don't want to take spell-candy from that nice enchanter...
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
Yeah, the biggest issue the Unchained Monk has is that all his passive defense abilities became "spend ki to gain this benefit for one minute."
This was my only issue as well. If they hadn't done this, the ki pool he has would have been more than sufficient and it would have been a great class. I don't mind the weak Will save; he's already incentivized to boost Wisdom on multiple fronts, so it should be a primary, or at least secondary, stat for him anyways.
They solved the issues with his lack of synergy between class features, style strikes in flurries are awesome, though Flying Kick is so essential it should have just been built-in, and I think even the new flurry is an improvement. Old monk is still better if you have high system mastery since you can archetype combo up for specialized builds, but UnC Monk is so much better for new players.
I get why they didn't give him all style feats as bonus feats; Crane Wing was already nerfed largely based on Master of Many Styles abuse instead of its own merits, and making all style feats monk bonus feats would only serve to further impede what can be done with style feats since they'don't no longer be gate-able to certain levels.
BadBird |
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Ssalarn wrote:...and making all style feats monk bonus feats would only serve to further impede what can be done with style feats since they'don't no longer be gate-able to certain levels.Even though you can only fight in one Styles at a time?
I fail to see why.
Pummeling Charge at level 1 instead of 8? Complete Crane Style chain at level 2 instead of 7? Pummeling Charge, full Crane, and Dragon Style/Ferocity all woven together with Combat Style Master by 9?
I could see the Style Feats being Monk bonus feats if they still had prerequisites, though it would still be a massive upgrade to the list.
Secret Wizard |
Ssalarn wrote:...and making all style feats monk bonus feats would only serve to further impede what can be done with style feats since they'don't no longer be gate-able to certain levels.Even though you can only fight in one Styles at a time?
I fail to see why.
I fail to see what the monk loses from not being able to pick up style feats. You will ALWAYS qualify for those feats at the BAB requirement, and your Bonus Feats allow you to qualify faster even.
Dodge lets you qualify for Crane Style without forcing it on you. Combat Reflexes for Panther Style. Improved Bull Rush etc. for Pummeling Bully.
So on and so forth.
Secret Wizard |
I have my concerns with it as anyone does with every class they like
But having Style Feats as bonus feats is a NON issue.
Will saves are a NON issue.
Amulet of Mighty Fists is an issue. Unarmed has enough penalties (i.e. terrible crit range/multiplier) to need to also have a tax hike.
Ki Powers are an issue that could be discussed. Many of them are boring, many of them could use some extra pizzazz.
People complain about utility, but I think that Ki Powers open the door to a lot of interesting utility features. Ki DIvination is a great start. Using Qingqong powers for Battlemind Link is the kind of thing that makes sense. Now we need more of them.
Total Ki... if you are a Human, you are golden. FCB gets you exactly where you want to be, adding Honored Fist of the Society on top of it. If you are not, then I can see how it could suck ass.
At level 10th though, you generate more Ki than you ever need with Ki Leech, which is a very easy to apply buff. Early levels could use some love for non-Humans.
Btw, Monk is not a decent beatstick. It's an AMAZING beatstick. Properly built, it leaves the output of the Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Slayer, Ranger all through the ground, and it can combine that with impossible to hit touch AC and the ability to teleport through the battlefield while full-attacking, regaining uses of Ki as he fells each enemy.
It can also go with the massive AC build that is an amazing defender, cannot get touched, can harry all enemies across the battlefield and exhaust their attacks of opportunity while punishing those who ignore him with a ton of damage.
There's also the trip build, using Ki Throw, that can dish out lots of control and manipulation on the battlefield.
I see people going from "USELESS!!!" to "decent beatstick", but I still don't believe they are seeing the class as a whole, PARTICULARLY because they never talk about the issues that matter.
graystone |
graystone wrote:Ki Leech is 11th level and not everyone is going to want to use an evil power.Is 10th. Evil is an issue. An alternative could be thought up. This is useful.
Ah, you are right. Had it in my head it was 11 for some reason. That'll teach me not to look something up. :P
Snowblind |
Secret Wizard wrote:Ah, you are right. Had it in my head it was 11 for some reason. That'll teach me not to look something up. :Pgraystone wrote:Ki Leech is 11th level and not everyone is going to want to use an evil power.Is 10th. Evil is an issue. An alternative could be thought up. This is useful.
Everyone treats it as 11 because on the normal monk all of the level 10 abilities that can be swapped for it are actually good.
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
Ssalarn wrote:...and making all style feats monk bonus feats would only serve to further impede what can be done with style feats since they'don't no longer be gate-able to certain levels.Even though you can only fight in one Styles at a time?
I fail to see why.
Because the capstone feats for some styles are designed for use at 8th level or higher, and if you're going to make those accessible at 2nd level, then you have to make sure they're balanced for 2nd level play, which means they have to be more limited then you want a high level power to be.
Crane Wing was nerfed into near useless garbage because of all the complaints it created in PFS. All of those 2nd and 3rd level characters able to stop enemy combatants dead in their tracks was detrimental to the game. Personally, I think the real problem was that Crane Wing was available so early, and what really should have been "fixed" was the Master of Many Styles archetype that was handing out high level abilities to starter characters. If UnC Monk is supposed to be a fix, it should be a well-balanced fix (it is), and not just something that shifted the issues to other areas. Monks already have the easiest time qualifying for styles, they don't need them handed out prerequisites free as well. I suppose you could make only the actual [Style] feats prerequisites free, but that still isn't good forward-thinking design since it inhibits your ability to develop styles that can't even be learned except by higher level characters.
Anyways, Unchained Monk is up there as one of the best martial classes in the game right now, with serious advantages that can make him an even more valuable ally than the Barbarian, usually seen as kind of the "gold standard" for martial classes. Sure, a Barbarian can pounce, but an UnC Monk can split a melee full attack between two targets on opposite sides of a 70 foot hallway. It's a great beatstick with good saves, decent skills, and a cool package of handy utility powers, easily on par with other good martial classes like the Barbarian or Ranger.
Secret Wizard |
My Monk wishlist:
- Archetypes for Unchained
- Style strikes for weapons
- More Ki powers
- More ways to regain Ki, particularly to make Chakra opening a viable strategy.
- Destroy Master of Many Styles' ability to get prerequisite-free Style Feats in upcoming errata so we can have new, schnazzy Style Feats.
Rynjin |
- Destroy Master of Many Styles' ability to get prerequisite-free Style Feats in upcoming errata so we can have new, schnazzy Style Feats.
New snazzy Style Feats come out all he time anyway. Style Feats have a pretty good track record for being at least interesting, with only a few real duds (Kraken Throttle sticks out as garbage).
No need to f!&@ up my favorite archetype for that sake, since Paizo isn't going to make better Feats regardless.
Secret Wizard |
Secret Wizard wrote:
- Destroy Master of Many Styles' ability to get prerequisite-free Style Feats in upcoming errata so we can have new, schnazzy Style Feats.New snazzy Style Feats come out all he time anyway. Style Feats have a pretty good track record for being at least interesting, with only a few real duds (Kraken Throttle sticks out as garbage).
No need to f*$! up my favorite archetype for that sake, since Paizo isn't going to make better Feats regardless.
The archetype wouldn't be f~~*ed up. It would still be able to do the same thing it can do now, it would just be less front-loaded.
Rynjin |
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Which is its main advantage, considering over 20 levels it's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY weaker than the baseline Monk, much less good archetypes like ZAM.
Maybe if they actually did a full re-work and it got other abilities besides Fuse Styles, but I don't trust Paizo to do that. If they touch it at all, it'll be to nerf-stomp it like everything else they get their hands on.
Lemmy |
Honestly... Had they simply added Full BAB, d10 HD, simplified/functional flurry, proficiency with all monk weapons and a little mobility (all of which are really freaking obvious changes and shouldn't have taken longer than 5 seconds to come up with, considering all the years of feedback). The UC Monk would have been fine... Hell! Doesn't even need Full BAB/d10 HD! Just add an always-on scaling bonus to attack rolls with the appropriate weapons!
Losing one of the Monk's unique aspects (all good saves), taxing every single ability with a Ki cost (from a rather limited Ki pool) and removing their access to archetypes was unnecessary and frustrating.
UC Monk looks more like a Brawler archetype than a Monk... The only interesting change it had was Flying Kick, all other were either really obvious or mediocre at best.
Still... It makes a decent job of beating stuff, so there is that... Not much of anything else to the class, though. And I am in no way amazed by it.
To be fair, even Barbarians aren't much more than a decent beatstick without the whole [Superstition + Pounce + Spell Sunder] combo. Spell Sunder is really useful, though...
Of course, they are both miles ahead of Fighters and Cavaliers... But that isn't saying much.
Deighton Thrane |
Personally I wish every class was unchained from the alignment system, and they all gained something similar to the cavaliers edicts.
As for the UnMonk, with pummeling style, all that needed to be fixed was pseudo full BAB -> actual full BAB, and take away the -2 when they flurry. Would have worked great. It's nice that they gave us style strikes, but it's only going to be used to jump from target to target between two handed seven branched sword (or insert your favorite 2 handed monk weapon) power attacks.
Imbicatus |
blackbloodtroll wrote:I had hoped they would be "unchained" from the Lawful alignment.Or from needing that last point of ki in their pool to use ki strike. Which, I would like to remind everyone, is a restriction that not even vague shadow of existed in 3.X. Paizo added that little bit in.
Of course, since there wasn't even a Ki Pool at all prior to pathfinder, that's hardly a restriction.
Cerberus Seven |
Cerberus Seven wrote:Of course, since there wasn't even a Ki Pool at all prior to pathfinder, that's hardly a restriction.blackbloodtroll wrote:I had hoped they would be "unchained" from the Lawful alignment.Or from needing that last point of ki in their pool to use ki strike. Which, I would like to remind everyone, is a restriction that not even vague shadow of existed in 3.X. Paizo added that little bit in.
Of course it's a restriction. The 3.X monk punched through DR at all times, no condition or resource or action needed, it just happened. Say what you want about the rest of their class features, PF took a step backwards on that one.
Imbicatus |
Imbicatus wrote:Of course it's a restriction. The 3.X monk punched through DR at all times, no condition or resource or action needed, it just happened. Say what you want about the rest of their class features, PF took a step backwards on that one.Cerberus Seven wrote:Of course, since there wasn't even a Ki Pool at all prior to pathfinder, that's hardly a restriction.blackbloodtroll wrote:I had hoped they would be "unchained" from the Lawful alignment.Or from needing that last point of ki in their pool to use ki strike. Which, I would like to remind everyone, is a restriction that not even vague shadow of existed in 3.X. Paizo added that little bit in.
If the pathfinder monk ignores the ki pool, it punches through DR at all times, no condition or resource or action needed, it just happens. However, you have the option of powering other abilities the 3.5 monk never had and as long as you have one ki point, you still punch through DR at all times.
That is not a step backwards. It gives you options while retaining the ability to bypass DR, and more types of DR than you could in 3.5 too.
Secret Wizard |
Honestly... Had they simply added Full BAB, d10 HD, simplified/functional flurry, proficiency with all monk weapons and a little mobility (all of which are really freaking obvious changes and shouldn't have taken longer than 5 seconds to come up with, considering all the years of feedback). The UC Monk would have been fine... Hell! Doesn't even need Full BAB/d10 HD! Just add an always-on scaling bonus to attack rolls with the appropriate weapons!
Losing one of the Monk's unique aspects (all good saves), taxing every single ability with a Ki cost (from a rather limited Ki pool) and removing their access to archetypes was unnecessary and frustrating.
UC Monk looks more like a Brawler archetype than a Monk... The only interesting change it had was Flying Kick, all other were either really obvious or mediocre at best.
Still... It makes a decent job of beating stuff, so there is that... Not much of anything else to the class, though. And I am in no way amazed by it.
To be fair, even Barbarians aren't much more than a decent beatstick without the whole [Superstition + Pounce + Spell Sunder] combo. Spell Sunder is really useful, though...
Of course, they are both miles ahead of Fighters and Cavaliers... But that isn't saying much.
The real question is whether it's a good class chassis.
I think it's infinitely better than the regular Monk.
Removing access to archetypes is fully understandable. What needs to happen is that start releasing archetypes for it now. If they don't, I'll be frustrated myself.
The only feature that I wished were always on is Diamond Soul. Wholeness of Body, High Jump, that's Qingqong fodder. You know it is. Let's cut the middleman.
Quivering Palm is a cool ability but it rarely figures into games. So you don't get it for free. Big whoop. It has a low DC and targets Fort.
I can see how losing poison immunity could be crappy. But this is a high fortitude class. It's not as good for Monks as it is for Investigators.
Also, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what is that utility that the UnMonk lost!! "It's a decent beatstick", purple keep droning - I don't agree, since you can divinate and use Psychic skill unlocks to make use of high Wisdom to do cool stuff, plus you are able to teleport around and apply combat maneuvers...
But anyway, what could a regular Monk do that the Unchained can't???????
What can a Sohei do that doesn't qualify as " decent beatstick", or ZAM, or Martial Artist???? What was that magical thing that was lost in the way?
Lemmy |
It didn't have much to lose... It simply didn't get anything other damage (and a tiny bit of mobility). 0 + 0 = 0.
I never denied that UC Monk is better than Core Monk, but that doesn't make it a good class. It's decent enough as a beatstick. And that's all it is.
Admitedly, being a decent beatstick is better than being a weak one. It's just not enough for me to consider it "amazing".
Vrog Skyreaver |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The only feature that I wished were always on is Diamond Soul. Wholeness of Body, High Jump, that's Qingqong fodder. You know it is. Let's cut the middleman.
Let's be fair here: Diamond soul is not as useful as people make it out to be. Having SR seems good on paper, but the problem comes in when your allies can't heal or buff you in combat. It's actually worse than that, because they've now wasted spells trying to do so (since a spell that fails to penetrate SR is still used).
High Jump, on the other hand, is one of the monk's better mobility options. It lets you pretty much ignore difficult terrain, and you will typically auto make jump checks jump distances that equal or exceed your maximum movement (although you're still capped at your speed). As someone who has played multiple iterations of both core and unchained monk, I have never swapped out high jump.
Vrog Skyreaver |
It's just not enough for me to consider it "amazing".
I guess the question would then be: What do you consider an amazing class? or more specifically, what do you consider to be the features that best encompass an amazing class. If the answer involves any derivation of "max spell level 9", I think this is the wrong forum for you =_
Cerberus Seven |
If the pathfinder monk ignores the ki pool, it punches through DR at all times, no condition or resource or action needed, it just happens. However, you have the option of powering other abilities the 3.5 monk never had and as long as you have one ki point, you still punch through DR at all times.
That is not a step backwards. It gives you options while retaining the ability to bypass DR, and more types of DR than you could in 3.5 too.
I'm aware that multiple aspects of the monk class were upgraded with the update to PF. Same as most if not all classes in the CRB. That's not the issue. Several monk abilities which were on their own X uses/day track in 3.X are now Ki expenditures, with this paradigm further enhanced in Unchained. Out of ki? Can't use Abundant Step. No more ki? No Wholeness of Body for you. Your ki is gone? Empty Body is out of the question. So, really, ignoring ki to get the use of Ki Strike isn't much help. If you DO want to use it, your resource pool is effectively at level/2 + Wis - 1, which is something no other class needs to worry about.
All of this is tangential to the main point anyways, which is that the resource pool and the ability to use Ki Strike are tied, or perhaps 'chained' if you will, together. It's an unnecessary and fiddly downside of a mechanic that only makes the class more complicated to play. As if the class didn't have enough of that kind of thing already. For a book dedicated to making things simpler and fixing existing issues, Unchained sure missed a huge opportunity with this element.
p-sto |
Removing access to archetypes is fully understandable. What needs to happen is that start releasing archetypes for it now. If they don't, I'll be frustrated myself.
Considering the effort that Paizo's put into making ninja compatible archetypes I wouldn't hold out too much hope for this.
Cyrad RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
Everyone always whines about the saves and the ki point expenditures and other downsides but conveniently dismiss major strengths. When my player whined that the unchained monk had less attacks, I had to explain to him three times how the unchained monk actually has the same number of attacks for almost his entire career AND has a way better chance of hitting AND will do more damage.
Chess Pwn |
Imbicatus wrote:If the pathfinder monk ignores the ki pool, it punches through DR at all times, no condition or resource or action needed, it just happens. However, you have the option of powering other abilities the 3.5 monk never had and as long as you have one ki point, you still punch through DR at all times.
That is not a step backwards. It gives you options while retaining the ability to bypass DR, and more types of DR than you could in 3.5 too.
I'm aware that multiple aspects of the monk class were upgraded with the update to PF. Same as most if not all classes in the CRB. That's not the issue. Several monk abilities which were on their own X uses/day track in 3.X are now Ki expenditures, with this paradigm further enhanced in Unchained. Out of ki? Can't use Abundant Step. No more ki? No Wholeness of Body for you. Your ki is gone? Empty Body is out of the question. So, really, ignoring ki to get the use of Ki Strike isn't much help. If you DO want to use it, your resource pool is effectively at level/2 + Wis - 1, which is something no other class needs to worry about.
All of this is tangential to the main point anyways, which is that the resource pool and the ability to use Ki Strike are tied, or perhaps 'chained' if you will, together. It's an unnecessary and fiddly downside of a mechanic that only makes the class more complicated to play. As if the class didn't have enough of that kind of thing already. For a book dedicated to making things simpler and fixing existing issues, Unchained sure missed a huge opportunity with this element.
Panache needs 1 left in it's pool for a lot of things.
Cerberus Seven |
Cerberus Seven wrote:Panache needs 1 left in it's pool for a lot of things.Imbicatus wrote:If the pathfinder monk ignores the ki pool, it punches through DR at all times, no condition or resource or action needed, it just happens. However, you have the option of powering other abilities the 3.5 monk never had and as long as you have one ki point, you still punch through DR at all times.
That is not a step backwards. It gives you options while retaining the ability to bypass DR, and more types of DR than you could in 3.5 too.
I'm aware that multiple aspects of the monk class were upgraded with the update to PF. Same as most if not all classes in the CRB. That's not the issue. Several monk abilities which were on their own X uses/day track in 3.X are now Ki expenditures, with this paradigm further enhanced in Unchained. Out of ki? Can't use Abundant Step. No more ki? No Wholeness of Body for you. Your ki is gone? Empty Body is out of the question. So, really, ignoring ki to get the use of Ki Strike isn't much help. If you DO want to use it, your resource pool is effectively at level/2 + Wis - 1, which is something no other class needs to worry about.
All of this is tangential to the main point anyways, which is that the resource pool and the ability to use Ki Strike are tied, or perhaps 'chained' if you will, together. It's an unnecessary and fiddly downside of a mechanic that only makes the class more complicated to play. As if the class didn't have enough of that kind of thing already. For a book dedicated to making things simpler and fixing existing issues, Unchained sure missed a huge opportunity with this element.
As do gunslingers. Now, tell me: what is the MAJOR difference between a monk's ki pool and a grit/panache pool? Put aside what they're used for and what classes they're attached to for the moment, what is really different about a gunslinger or swashbuckler being at 0 grit/panache versus a monk being at 0 ki?
Snowblind |
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Chess Pwn wrote:As do gunslingers. Now, tell me: what is the MAJOR difference between a monk's ki pool and a grit/panache pool? Put aside what they're used for and what classes they're attached to for the moment, what is really different about a gunslinger or swashbuckler being at 0 grit/panache versus a monk...Cerberus Seven wrote:Panache needs 1 left in it's pool for a lot of things.Imbicatus wrote:If the pathfinder monk ignores the ki pool, it punches through DR at all times, no condition or resource or action needed, it just happens. However, you have the option of powering other abilities the 3.5 monk never had and as long as you have one ki point, you still punch through DR at all times.
That is not a step backwards. It gives you options while retaining the ability to bypass DR, and more types of DR than you could in 3.5 too.
I'm aware that multiple aspects of the monk class were upgraded with the update to PF. Same as most if not all classes in the CRB. That's not the issue. Several monk abilities which were on their own X uses/day track in 3.X are now Ki expenditures, with this paradigm further enhanced in Unchained. Out of ki? Can't use Abundant Step. No more ki? No Wholeness of Body for you. Your ki is gone? Empty Body is out of the question. So, really, ignoring ki to get the use of Ki Strike isn't much help. If you DO want to use it, your resource pool is effectively at level/2 + Wis - 1, which is something no other class needs to worry about.
All of this is tangential to the main point anyways, which is that the resource pool and the ability to use Ki Strike are tied, or perhaps 'chained' if you will, together. It's an unnecessary and fiddly downside of a mechanic that only makes the class more complicated to play. As if the class didn't have enough of that kind of thing already. For a book dedicated to making things simpler and fixing existing issues, Unchained sure missed a huge opportunity with this element.
Gunslingers and Swashbucklers have a recharge mechanic?
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
Cerberus Seven |
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Gunslingers and Swashbucklers have a recharge mechanic?
Bingo! Killing a creature or scoring a critical hit gives them back grit/panache. Now to be fair, they can only do so with certain weapons, but a monk can't get ki back using Ki Leech from critting/killing undead or constructs like they can, so it kinda balances out. Also, monks have to swap something out or use a ki power to take this, they don't get it automatically. It's also a somewhat substandard option compared to these other two full-BAB classes because, A) it can be shut-off/dispelled, B) comes online half-way through the monk's career rather than immediately, C) requires a point of the same resource its meant to restore to activate in the first place, D) doesn't even work if you're at 0 ki, and E) is an evil spell, potentially have repercussions depending on the scenario / group you find yourself in. Still a must-have for monks, mind you, just inferior compared to other built-in options that other classes get and frustrating that you have to sacrifice something for it.
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
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Everyone always whines about the saves and the ki point expenditures and other downsides but conveniently dismiss major strengths. When my player whined that the unchained monk had less attacks, I had to explain to him three times how the unchained monk actually has the same number of attacks for almost his entire career AND has a way better chance of hitting AND will do more damage.
Just FYI, accusing people of "whining" is insulting. Please don't do it as it creates a negative atmosphere in the forums.
Yes, the UnC Monk's ability to deal damage actually got substantially better, and the limited ki pool and poor Will complaints are both partially addressed by the fact that the class has Wis has a main stat anyways. I can see where people are coming from though. By tying so many defensive abilities to the monk's ki pool, the UnC Monk was kind of chopped up and inverted. Before, the monk was easily a defensive powerhouse with moderate utility who had trouble with offense. Now, he's an offensive powerhouse whose utility and (lower) defenses are feeding of the same pool, making both more limited. Personally, I think the UnC Monk was probably the best work they did in the entire Unchained book, but I can see where people who might not be as happy with it are coming from. They wanted (basically) Core Monk with better offense, instead they got a brand new class that used some of the same names for its abilities.