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How does the Occultist Battle Host archetype work with society play?


Roleplaying Guild General Discussion

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Now that the additional resources have been updated for Occult Adventures, I see that the Battle Host archetype for the Occultist is allowed. Anyone have any idea how this new ability works in society play?

Panoply Bond (Su): At 1st level, a battle host forms
a supernatural bond with a specific weapon, suit of
armor, or shield. This selection is permanent and can
never be changed. The bonded item is masterwork
quality and the battle host begins play with it at no cost.

The words is straightforward- character has said weapon/armor/shield for free. But how do expensive armors work for society play? If I pick O-yoroi, that originally would cost 1,700 + masterwork, and I get it for free.

Blows the 150 GP out of the water at first level.... Anyone have any idea or are there any other similar situations you can think of?

Shadow Lodge ****

Well, gunslingers pick either blunderbuss(2,000 gp), musket(1,500 gp), or pistol(1,000 gp). It's hardly gamebreaking.

Grand Lodge **** Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

It sounds like a variant on the Wizard's Arcane Bond, and that has a provision in PFS rules that it is only for items that are Always Available, so no Arcane Bond firearms, and I would assume the same clause would apply to the Panoply Bond.

Do Occultists suffer from ASF?
Even without it, you are trading off some things to get a really nice armor at the start, but getting a fairly nasty ACP and slowed movement in exchange, if you go for the heavier options.
Also, what armors and weapons are Occultists (Battle Host archetype, in particular) proficient with? I would think you could only get an item which you already have proficiency with, as an additional limiter.

The Exchange

kinevon wrote:

It sounds like a variant on the Wizard's Arcane Bond, and that has a provision in PFS rules that it is only for items that are Always Available, so no Arcane Bond firearms, and I would assume the same clause would apply to the Panoply Bond.

Do Occultists suffer from ASF?
Even without it, you are trading off some things to get a really nice armor at the start, but getting a fairly nasty ACP and slowed movement in exchange, if you go for the heavier options.
Also, what armors and weapons are Occultists (Battle Host archetype, in particular) proficient with? I would think you could only get an item which you already have proficiency with, as an additional limiter.

Interestingly, Battle Host Occultists are proficient with ALL martial weapons and armor and shields (INCLUDING tower shields).

I've fused my Warpriest with this, and am happy to have it.

**

None of the Occult Classes suffer ASF, they aren't Arcane Casters.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

and full plate is an always available item.
guns are "balanced" against them breaking and a host of other problems. their pricing is largely based on the technology level putting them out of the reach of most characters.

1700gp free armor at 1st level for +9 armor bonus at 1st is a definite wrench in the power dynamic of the armor class system. its usually something characters in PFS can't afford at all until 2nd level.

i've got one in a home game. i've proposed either taking an armor under 300gp, or halving the AC value as if the item had the broken condition (+4 for full plate ), but not doubling the armor check penalty to skills, until 2nd level.

its an archetype that a lot of munchkins will jump on, since its clearly built to get full plate at 1st level and not much else.

Shadow Lodge ****

It might be, if given to, say, a barbarian but this is the occultist. They don't do much at first level. How about the alchemist at first level? +2/+4 AC from mutagen and +4 from an extract/wand. Or maybe an oracle of battle in banded armor? Shield of faith, etc.

**

Any always available item is fair game. I don't feel this is very disruptive. If anything I agree that the Occultist could use a combat boost at low levels and this is a nice boon on top of the eventual bonus combat feats.

Liberty's Edge *

Drastic Monkey wrote:

Interestingly, Battle Host Occultists are proficient with ALL martial weapons and armor and shields (INCLUDING tower shields).

I've fused my Warpriest with this, and am happy to have it.

Looks like Battle Hosts can still suffer from Arcane spell failure.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Amsterdam aka Seraphimpunk

Muser wrote:
It might be, if given to, say, a barbarian but this is the occultist. They don't do much at first level. How about the alchemist at first level? +2/+4 AC from mutagen and +4 from an extract/wand. Or maybe an oracle of battle in banded armor? Shield of faith, etc.

from consumables and charges. this is walking around with a base +13 ac bonus before dex or expendables ( mwk full plate and a tower shield ). i know it doesn't make them immune to damage, but against 1st level encounters, it largely does.

Silver Crusade ***

Æthernaut wrote:
Drastic Monkey wrote:

Interestingly, Battle Host Occultists are proficient with ALL martial weapons and armor and shields (INCLUDING tower shields).

I've fused my Warpriest with this, and am happy to have it.

Looks like Battle Hosts can still suffer from Arcane spell failure.

Spells cast off a psychic spellcaster spell list do not have somatic components (or verbal ones for that matter), so no spell failure.

They have other drawbacks to deal with, such as higher concentration DCs and inability to cast while under non-harmless fear or emotion effects.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the battle-host's ability is balanced by the fact that you can never switch out the armor for something with a special material. It's a nice boost at level 1, but it quickly loses steam.

I certainly dont think it's as bad as a tribal scars/power attack level 1 barbarian. The battle-host might be hard to hit, but he won't one-shot everything so nobody else gets to play.

Liberty's Edge *

Hrothdane wrote:
Æthernaut wrote:
Drastic Monkey wrote:

Interestingly, Battle Host Occultists are proficient with ALL martial weapons and armor and shields (INCLUDING tower shields).

I've fused my Warpriest with this, and am happy to have it.

Looks like Battle Hosts can still suffer from Arcane spell failure.

Spells cast off a psychic spellcaster spell list do not have somatic components (or verbal ones for that matter), so no spell failure.

They have other drawbacks to deal with, such as higher concentration DCs and inability to cast while under non-harmless fear or emotion effects.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the battle-host's ability is balanced by the fact that you can never switch out the armor for something with a special material. It's a nice boost at level 1, but it quickly loses steam.

I certainly dont think it's as bad as a tribal scars/power attack level 1 barbarian. The battle-host might be hard to hit, but he won't one-shot everything so nobody else gets to play.

Aren't the Occultist spell list and the Psychic's spell list separate? Are you saying that if an Occultist cast a spell that is on the Psychics list, that it is handled differently? I know the psychic is susceptible to emotions, but are you saying that the Occultist is as well?

Silver Crusade ***

Little "p" psychic.

Occultist, Mesmerist, Spiritualist, and Psychic use psychic magic. The rules for psychic magic, such as using thought and emotion components, apply to all of them.

Silver Crusade **

You guys are aware that a simple intimidation can shut down all spells casting on psychic magic right? They can't even benefit from heroism.

Silver Crusade ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ill_Made_Knight wrote:
You guys are aware that a simple intimidation can shut down all spells casting on psychic magic right? They can't even benefit from heroism.

Heroism is harmless.

Emotion components are specifically shut down by non-harmless spells with the emotion descriptor.

Silver Crusade **

^ You are correct.

Liberty's Edge *

Hrothdane wrote:

Little "p" psychic.

Occultist, Mesmerist, Spiritualist, and Psychic use psychic magic. The rules for psychic magic, such as using thought and emotion components, apply to all of them.

I'm interested in hearing more on your thoughts. Does this make the Occultist useless or even extremely vulnerable?

Liberty's Edge ** Venture-Agent, Online

The equipment boost at level 1 is just not that big a deal in the long run.

I'd be all for allowing the Rich Parents trait in PFS. An extra 750 gp to start isn't going to break the game, especially when you are limited to always available items.

Silver Crusade ***

@Aethernaut I have a battle host myself (level 3.33), and I dont think so, though my opinion might change for a normal occultist.

A battle host should not be relying on spells for much other than utility and buffing. You can still activate wands all the time, as you are not actually casting a spell. The focus powers you get are unaffected, and those are the main source of your power. Arguably the most important buff spell you get, Shield, is level 1 and can easily be used as a wand anyways.

Remove Fear is also a level 1 spell that you can carry potions of (or that one ring) if you really need to clear the condition.

****

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Logical Spell rods are cheap. 3k gold when you have the chance to save 1800gp by grabbing a full plate out the gate is not a bad expense to shut down the occasional Intimidate and will cover all your spells until level 10. As Hrothdane said, you still can use your focus powers regardless of emotion and fear effects.


Well, here's something a little ironic: there is nothing in the description of panoply bond that prohibits you from selecting a 'special material' for your implement. So technically it seems u could start out with mithral armor, an adamantine weapon, etc.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Card Game, Class Deck, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Legends Subscriber

It says you get a masterwork item. I'm pretty sure it's simply understood that saying you get a masterwork armor / weapon without any other specifications implies no special materials. Kind of a common sense ruling, think "prone while unconscious".

There's probably a rule somewhere that says as much.

**** Venture-Lieutenant, Tennessee—Nashville aka Wolfspirit

Duskblade wrote:
Well, here's something a little ironic: there is nothing in the description of panoply bond that prohibits you from selecting a 'special material' for your implement. So technically it seems u could start out with mithral armor, an adamantine weapon, etc.

Not really "ironic", just vaguely worded. It is very similar to the Bolt Ace's ability and expect wording similar to "The free bonded item is not made of any special material and is worth 22 gp if sold." be added to the Additional Resources.


Andrew Klein wrote:

It says you get a masterwork item. I'm pretty sure it's simply understood that saying you get a masterwork armor / weapon without any other specifications implies no special materials. Kind of a common sense ruling, think "prone while unconscious".

There's probably a rule somewhere that says as much.

This. You'd start off with say, Masterwork Full Plate (and save a ton of dough initally), but it will be steel, by default, and you won't be able to change it to another type of material, AFAIK.

My PFS Battle Host is starting with a MW Composite Longbow for one main reason:
Bonded weapons are, by definition, unbreakable, and bows are VERY easy to break/sunder/burn, etc. They also do not benefit from special materials as much as weapons or armor, as one needs to buy ammunition using special materials to bypass DR, etc.

*****

CheezWizrd wrote:


Bonded weapons are, by definition, unbreakable

Not last I checked...

Grand Lodge ****

A battle host's bonded item is immune to the Broken condition, not the Destroyed condition. It's the same as a Black Blade in that respect.

**** Venture-Lieutenant, Tennessee—Nashville aka Wolfspirit

Relevant FAQ on Panoply Bond Item getting Broken or Destroyed:

Battle Host: What exactly does it mean that the battle host’s implement is immune to the broken condition? Can it never be destroyed? Can you use it over and over again with abilities that break your weapon for a benefit?

In this particular instance, what it does is slightly different than the usual meaning of “immune.” It means that the implement suffers no penalties, even if it becomes broken. It can still gain the broken condition, and, it still counts as having the broken condition for the purpose of effects that escalate if you have the broken condition (such as effects that give the broken condition, or destroy the target if it already has the broken condition). As usual, you can’t use an effect that breaks a weapon if it already has the broken condition. An explanation will be included in the next errata.

FAQ Source


AC cannot help you complete your mission.

All it does is delay your mean time to failure.

:)

-j

**

Level 1 full plate is a hefty swing in the favor of PCs, but it's no different than a monk with a Mage Armor wand. (And no, they can't use it themselves, but I have yet to see a PFS session without a single person who can.) Any dedicated beeftank can have it by 2.

It's another branch of the tree that is the AC mechanics: easy to start out in the low/mid 20s, but you have to work really hard for every extra point via feat chains or increasingly expensive magic items.

Dark Archive *

Also keep in mind that the battle host's bonded item can't be changed. And without it they have zero access to their spells or focus abilities. You can't replace it with a better weapon or armor. Of course, if you picked a weapon you CAN carry multiple weapons. And probably will end up doing so. But if you picked armor you're stuck with only using that armor. Even if you find a better suit of armor, too bad. You can't use it or you lose 90% of your abilities.

It's not like a normal occultist who can pick a different focus object every day. You're bonded to a very specific item. My battle host has for his panopy bond a long sword called "The sword of the forgotten king". It's not the most powerful of weapons. It's not the most impressive of weapons. In fact most don't even know the significance of this sword. But it has a long history of overlooked heroism and wielders who's names have been lost to the sands of time. Among them the king who first commissioned the sword. it's this legacy my battle host taps into when he uses the sword.

**

well you don't really find better armor in PFS, and there is nothing in Panoply Bond says nothing about not being able to enchant said Item.

Dark Archive *

My reading of it was the masterwork item is of standard construction. Thus you can't have it be anything exotic like mithral or other special materials. Thus if you picked an armor for your bond, you can't replace it later with a mithral version of the same armor to reduce the weight and armor check penalty. Nor can you use a different armor that might help you sneak around easier. Okay, sure you could pick full plate for your panopy bond, but is there a better option? What if you can't wear your armor for some reason, such as being at a gathering of nobles? A 'decoritive' weapon might be allowed, but not going in full plate. In which case you don't have access to your class abilities. Or if there's an ambush in the middle of the night.

I can think of dozens of times when having to don a suit of full plate before you can use your abilities would be too risky. In those same situations having a weapon on hand you can grab, much faster.

Then there's a reaction I got when I submitted a battle host character with full plate as their panopy bond to a play-by-post game today...

"No way in HELL am I letting you start with a suit of masterwork full plate. If you insist it's armor, it's scale mail at best."


Michael Donley wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

FAQ Source

Thank you for the clarification.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Card Game, Class Deck, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Legends Subscriber
Daniel Myhre wrote:

What if you can't wear your armor for some reason, such as being at a gathering of nobles? A 'decoritive' weapon might be allowed, but not going in full plate. In which case you don't have access to your class abilities. Or if there's an ambush in the middle of the night.

I can think of dozens of times when having to don a suit of full plate before you can use your abilities would be too risky. In those same situations having a weapon on hand you can grab, much faster.

That's why I'm going for the 5,000 gold "Comfort" enhancement for my full plate as soon I have the money and fame. Sleep in it as light armor, and it sheds dirt / sweat? Unless you catch me bathing or at that gathering of nobles, your going to find an unpleasant surprise.

Daniel Myhre wrote:

Then there's a reaction I got when I submitted a battle host character with full plate as their panopy bond to a play-by-post game today...

"No way in HELL am I letting you start with a suit of masterwork full plate. If you insist it's armor, it's scale mail at best."

I hope that was a PFS game so you could say "Uuuuhhhhh no it's not scale. It's plate."

Dark Archive *

Andrew Klein wrote:


Daniel Myhre wrote:

Then there's a reaction I got when I submitted a battle host character with full plate as their panopy bond to a play-by-post game today...

"No way in HELL am I letting you start with a suit of masterwork full plate. If you insist it's armor, it's scale mail at best."

I hope that was a PFS game so you could say "Uuuuhhhhh no it's not scale. It's plate."

Nope, GM even had us rolling stats on the board. I decided to go with battle host occultist cause I rolled stupidly high on stats, and it sounded fun. Rolled a 15 for my lowest stat, and that was charisma.

**** Venture-Lieutenant, Tennessee—Nashville aka Wolfspirit

Andrew Klein wrote:


I hope that was a PFS game so you could say "Uuuuhhhhh no it's not scale. It's plate."

The GM could reply that they don't want to run a PbP game with them if they use it as Full Plate. But yes, Full Plate is currently (and indefinitely) a legal option for PFS.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Card Game, Class Deck, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Legends Subscriber

My level 1, full plate-wearing Battle Host still can't decide what to be. Melee? Caster? Tank? All I need is to readjust his ability scores to give a small Con boost and he can do them all. Maybe a reach weapon and armor spikes just for fun...

I'm thinking about giving him Fortified Armor Training (break your armor or shield to turn an incoming crit into a normal hit), but if I understand item CL correctly, once I add enhancements it'll be basically impossible to use Make Whole to repair it.

Dark Archive *

Well, so long as it's not magic you can use the Mend spell to repair it too. And Make Whole could be used, but only if you didn't heavily enchant it. Think you have to be twice the level of the bonus you're adding if you were crafting, right? Or is it level divided by 4? Either way by level 12 I think you could only fix a magic item of total enhancement value equal to +3, maybe +4?

*****

Daniel Myhre wrote:
Well, so long as it's not magic you can use the Mend spell to repair it too. And Make Whole could be used, but only if you didn't heavily enchant it. Think you have to be twice the level of the bonus you're adding if you were crafting, right? Or is it level divided by 4? Either way by level 12 I think you could only fix a magic item of total enhancement value equal to +3, maybe +4?

Society has a special rule for spellcasting services, if I recall, that lets you find even an illegally-leveled 40th level caster to fix your destroyed item for you after a scenario if necessary (though you do have to pay the price), but yeah, if an item is destroyed, you will eventually not be able to fix it yourself, and even if broken (when you need CL instead of CLx2) it can be challenging to fix it yourself during the scenario. Since the FAQ on battle host reminds that you can't use an ability with a cost of breaking something if that something is already broken, this is still potentially a useful combo, since you suffer no penalties for it being broken, but only 1/scenario if you can't fix it yourself.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Card Game, Class Deck, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Legends Subscriber
Daniel Myhre wrote:
Well, so long as it's not magic you can use the Mend spell to repair it too.

Mending won't work for armor. It only works on items of 1 lb. / level, and even the lightest armor is 10 pounds. By level 10, if you aren't in magical armor... no comment lol.

Daniel Myhre wrote:
And Make Whole could be used, but only if you didn't heavily enchant it. Think you have to be twice the level of the bonus you're adding if you were crafting, right? Or is it level divided by 4? Either way by level 12 I think you could only fix a magic item of total enhancement value equal to +3, maybe +4?

So caster level is just the total +X of the various enhancements? Ok that's not even close to what I thought. I thought, for example, Invulnerability Armor says "CL 18" meant that the armor was now CL 18, and Shadow is CL 5 so it would now either be 18 (don't stack) or 23 (stack).

That actually makes Make Whole / Fortified Armor a pretty viable combo for Battle Host. At level 4 I can cast Make Whole, and that would allow me a CL 2 armor which, if I'm understanding you right, wouldn't be unlikely for me to have at that point.

Dark Archive *

Andrew Klein wrote:


So caster level is just the total +X of the various enhancements? Ok that's not even close to what I thought. I thought, for example, Invulnerability Armor says "CL 18" meant that the armor was now CL 18, and Shadow is CL 5 so it would now either be 18 (don't stack) or 23 (stack).

That actually makes Make Whole / Fortified Armor a pretty viable combo for Battle Host. At level 4 I can cast Make Whole, and that would allow me a CL 2 armor which, if I'm understanding you right, wouldn't be unlikely for me to have at that point.

Not too sure, actually. I've yet to run a character who needs to know this.

Enhancement bonuses when crafting are limited based on your caster level as a crafter. And most added effects have an effective enhancement bonus. Thus my assumption. But added spell effects I would imagine would give a caster level equal to the minimum level to cast the spells needed to make it? Or would it be the level of the crafter? I don't know. I've never really bothered with crafting anything other then wands and potions before.

Grand Lodge *** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Sacramento aka FLite

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Also there is now greater make whole, which just needs CL, not CLx3.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Card Game, Class Deck, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Legends Subscriber

Unfortunately the Occultist doesn't gain Greater Make Whole... also, Make Whole is x2, not x3.

Dark Archive *

Also, is it worth the bother of casting Make Whole repeatedly during the adventure to fix 1d4 durability per casting, or is there something more useful you could use those spell slots for? That's something to consider too. Occultists don't get that many spells to begin with. Only 1 per spell level per attuned school, with focus powers being able to give a few more. Even then they can only cast spells of a limited number of times per day. Six per day for most at level 12 in fact. This is why to me a Battle Host has an advantage over normal occultists. They don't have to rely on their magic as much.

So, was there a better spell choice then Make Whole you could have taken for your level 2 Transmutation spell?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Card Game, Class Deck, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Legends Subscriber

I would be willing to take Make Whole as my Transmutation spell that may or may not use up one of my two L2 slots at Level 4 (higher Int giving a bonus SPD, and only 1 INT away from a third, assuming I don't rebuild to use the Human's +2 to two abilities to start Int at 20 instead of 18). It'd be a rare enough occurrence for it to be worth it in my opinion, especially since I don't see any Level 2 Occultist Transmutation spells that really jump out at me as must-have.

Dark Archive *

No Andrew, I think you misunderstand. You only get one spell KNOWN per spell level per attuned school. And huh, apparently the focus to get more spells known was only in the playtest. Meaning you only ever have 1 spell per level per attuned school. So if you pick Make Whole, that's your only level 2 transmutation spell... ever.

I like some of the transmutation focus abilities, but I can think of better spells to pick then Make Whole. Darkvision for example could be more useful if you're human.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Card Game, Class Deck, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Legends Subscriber

Aww you got my hopes up talking about more spells known with focus powers!!

Daniel Myhre wrote:
Even then they can only cast spells of a limited number of times per day.

This is what I was referring to as getting more of, because that's the only limit I care about that is affected by taking Make Whole. I only get one Level 2 Transmutation spell, and I'm fine with that being Make Whole, because none of the others stand out as something I want. It also happens to work well in timing because I get second level spells at Level 4, the same time the Battle Host gets his first bonus combat feat.

It's not like I'm taking the Transmutation school just for this either, it's just the second level that doesn't interest me. Enlarge Person and Keen Edge (1st and 3rd respectively) I definitely want.

Darkvision is nice, but can be overcome by light often enough that I'd probably just wait till level 6 when I am likely to take Transmutation a second time for Lead Blades and Hostile Levitation, and grab Darkvision as my second level spell. Of course, I may reverse it and grab Darkvision first and Make Whole at sixth.

Paizo Employee ***** Designer

Daniel Myhre wrote:

No Andrew, I think you misunderstand. You only get one spell KNOWN per spell level per attuned school. And huh, apparently the focus to get more spells known was only in the playtest. Meaning you only ever have 1 spell per level per attuned school. So if you pick Make Whole, that's your only level 2 transmutation spell... ever.

I like some of the transmutation focus abilities, but I can think of better spells to pick then Make Whole. Darkvision for example could be more useful if you're human.

It didn't grant spells known in either version, I'm 85% sure (though don't have the playtest doc handy) but it gives you some spell-equivalent effects that don't cost spells known or spells per day, which can be quite useful. Consider, for instance, an occultist with mind over gravity at level 7 and haste as a spell known. That's a bunch of castings of fly each day that don't take spell slots, compared to say, a sorcerer with fly and haste as spells known.

Dark Archive *

Can you take the same school a second time? *goes back to check* Huh, guess they can. The playtest didn't allow that. Guess this replaces the playtest extra spells focus power. Give up overall versatility for more spells of a given school.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Card Game, Class Deck, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Legends Subscriber

Yea, it's handy. Before I saw Battle Host my plan was to mostly keep taking Evocation and Necromancy and focus on being a caster.

Of course, I could always take Expanded Arcana as a feat. Though the name doesn't sound like it, it isn't limited to Arcane casting. I would have to wait till level 5 to take it for Darkvision or Make Whole, but that's one level. I haven't seen a ton of feats that I could see me taking, so I'll have to see what is available to me at 5th.

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