2 hour / level summoned monsters

[Monkerdoodle]

alexd1976 wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

I did say they may not have anticipated Mount + Alter Summoned Monster.

So... as mature adults... we might agree not to use it this way?

Mature.... adults

Heresy

[alexd1976]

Monkerdoodle wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

I did say they may not have anticipated Mount + Alter Summoned Monster.

So... as mature adults... we might agree not to use it this way?

Mature.... adults

Heresy

My bad, I made an assumption.

[Monkerdoodle]

alexd1976 wrote:

Monkerdoodle wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

I did say they may not have anticipated Mount + Alter Summoned Monster.

So... as mature adults... we might agree not to use it this way?

Mature.... adults

Heresy

My bad, I made an assumption.

You may as well move us all to Communism, you red dog!!!!

[alexd1976]

Monkerdoodle wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

Monkerdoodle wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

I did say they may not have anticipated Mount + Alter Summoned Monster.

So... as mature adults... we might agree not to use it this way?

Mature.... adults

Heresy

My bad, I made an assumption.

You may as well move us all to Communism, you red dog!!!!

In theory, that is a good thing. :D

[Liz Courts]

Removed some off topic and insulting posts and their responses. Keep it clean and civil, thank you!

[DominusMegadeus]

alexd1976 wrote:

Monkerdoodle wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

Monkerdoodle wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

I did say they may not have anticipated Mount + Alter Summoned Monster.

So... as mature adults... we might agree not to use it this way?

Mature.... adults

Heresy

My bad, I made an assumption.

You may as well move us all to Communism, you red dog!!!!

In theory, that is a good thing. :D

Filthy theory-crafting munchkin rollplayer commie...

[kyrt-ryder]

The Reds are invading these boards :P

[alexd1976]

DominusMegadeus wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

Monkerdoodle wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

Monkerdoodle wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

I did say they may not have anticipated Mount + Alter Summoned Monster.

So... as mature adults... we might agree not to use it this way?

Mature.... adults

Heresy

My bad, I made an assumption.

You may as well move us all to Communism, you red dog!!!!

In theory, that is a good thing. :D

Filthy theory-crafting munchkin rollplayer commie...

You talking to me?

If so... you found me out. :D

[zook1shoe]

Not sure if you guys/gals know, but John Compton is probably going to deal w the Alter Mount combo soon here

[kyrt-ryder]

Thankfully he's only responsible for Pathfinder Society.

[zook1shoe]

but that clears up a good chunk of the people arguing either way.

[thorin001]

Yeah, but banning in PFS is a good indicator it will be nerfed in the real world.

[alexd1976]

I'm glad I don't game with people who try to use convoluted rules exploits like this...

I'm a self-professed power gamer, but I'm not THAT good at shattering game balance. :D

[RDM42]

_Ozy_ wrote:

DM_Blake wrote:

So let's make this more basic.

If Kyra uses Heighten Spell on a Cure Light Wounds, and she raises it to 4th level and puts it in a 4th level slot - when she casts that, does she cast Cure Light Wounds or Cure Critical Wounds?

Hint: The answer is Cure Light Wounds. It just happens to be harder to counterspell.

If Ezren uses Heighten Spell on a good old fireball, and he raises it all the way to 9th level and puts it in a 9th level slot - when he casts that, does he cast Fireball or Meteor Swarm?

Hint: The answer is Fireball. It just happens to be harder to counter and can penetrate some defensive spells better.

If you use Heighten Spell on a Mount spell, and you raise it to 9th level and put it in a 9th level slot - when you cast that, do you get a Mount spell or a Gate spell?

Answer: Mount. A level 1 spell Heightened to 9th level. Nothing more.

I don't understand these points. Nobody is saying that a 9th level Mount spell turns into a Gate spell, or that Cure Light Wounds 'turns into' Cure Moderate Wounds, are they?

What they are saying is that a 9th level Mount spell qualifies as a 9th level spell for Alter Summoned Monster. And according to RAW, that certainly appears to be the case.

Quote:

Can you alter that mount with Alter Summoned Monster? I think not, because it is not a summoned monster. But the text of the ability says you can use it on any Conjuration(summoning) spell so maybe you can. That's a fair debate.

What is it if not a summoned monster? Are you saying that spells and effects that affect summoned monsters don't affect the mount from the Mount spell? If the Alter Summoned Monster were restricted to the Summon Monster spells, that would be different.

Quote:

But when the dust settles from that debate, your Heightened Mount spell is a level 1 spell that was Heightened, so now you (maybe) can use Alter Summoned Monster to pick something from the level 1 Summon Monster list and summon that (Heightened to

...

Not having read through all of it, wether you think it should or not, all of the various summon Monsters are listed as separate spells, not as an improved options that go up for the same spell with levels. Meta magic doesn't change summon monster one into summon monster five, or whichever, it changes summon monster one into summon monster one cast at an increased level....

[_Ozy_]

Er, here's the text from the Alter Summoned Monster feat:

Quote:

You swap a creature summoned by a conjuration (summoning) spell for a creature you could summon with a summon monster or summon nature's ally spell. The new creature must be an option from a spell of the same level or lower as the spell that summoned the target.

And here's the metamagic heightened feat:

Quote:

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.

Almost nobody questions the ability to use the Alter feat with a heightened Summon Monster I, it's the 'mount' spell that is in question.

[kyrt-ryder]

thorin001 wrote:

Yeah, but banning in PFS is a good indicator it will be nerfed in the real world.

Not by me as a GM anyway.

[thorin001]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

thorin001 wrote:

Yeah, but banning in PFS is a good indicator it will be nerfed in the real world.

Not by me as a GM anyway.

I was referring to the devs' nerf hammer.

[kyrt-ryder]

thorin001 wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

thorin001 wrote:

Yeah, but banning in PFS is a good indicator it will be nerfed in the real world.

Not by me as a GM anyway.

I was referring to the devs' nerf hammer.

There are a fair number of things that have been banned in PFS but not screwed with in the main game.

Effortless Lace for example.

[thorin001]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

thorin001 wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

thorin001 wrote:

Yeah, but banning in PFS is a good indicator it will be nerfed in the real world.

Not by me as a GM anyway.

I was referring to the devs' nerf hammer.

There are a fair number of things that have been banned in PFS but not screwed with in the main game.

Effortless Lace for example.

I said good indicator, not an absolute certainty.

Some are banned for flavor, some because they do not fit the campaign style, some because they are broken, and some that the reason can only be divined by using the appropriate drugs. It is usually easy to spot which category something is in, and if it is in the broken category (even mistakenly) expect it to be nerfed. Look at poor Crane Wing.

[zook1shoe]

alexd1976 wrote:

I'm glad I don't game with people who try to use convoluted rules exploits like this...

I'm a self-professed power gamer, but I'm not THAT good at shattering game balance. :D

Totally understand, but unfortunately it's issues with how things are poorly written that is the problem, not the people that find them. But this is not saying that a vast majority is poorly written, just rare little things. Kind of like Kraken Throttle or blood money. Many of these things might be only slightly more powerful than things that are written properly. But things like Thoughtful Wish Maker, are just too powerful as intended.

But this combo is ridiculously powerful, and def needs to be errata'd.

Paizo has a tendency to ban-hammer things for mundanes that people think are too broken, despite casters doing similarly powerful things more efficiently.

I mean this as constructive criticism for Paizo to maybe compare mundane overpowered stuff to spellcaster abilities, before jumping on some things.

[alexd1976]

zook1shoe wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

I'm glad I don't game with people who try to use convoluted rules exploits like this...

I'm a self-professed power gamer, but I'm not THAT good at shattering game balance. :D

Totally understand, but unfortunately it's issues with how things are poorly written that is the problem, not the people that find them. But this is not saying that a vast majority is poorly written, just rare little things. Kind of like Kraken Throttle or blood money. Many of these things might be only slightly more powerful than things that are written properly. But things like Thoughtful Wish Maker, are just too powerful as intended.

But this combo is ridiculously powerful, and def needs to be errata'd.

Paizo has a tendency to ban-hammer things for mundanes that people think are too broken, despite casters doing similarly powerful things more efficiently.

I mean this as constructive criticism for Paizo to maybe compare mundane overpowered stuff to spellcaster abilities, before jumping on some things.

Yeah I think if Paizo ignored non-magical 'exploits' for a while, balance might return to the Force...

[Kaouse]

alexd1976 wrote:

I'm glad I don't game with people who try to use convoluted rules exploits like this...

I'm a self-professed power gamer, but I'm not THAT good at shattering game balance. :D

If you think this shatters game balance you must not have played with someone who ever made use of Planar Binding.

Or a Sacred Servant Paladin, who can get the entire Planar Ally line without having to pay the costs.

These options are SO much more balanced than expending a feat and two spells for getting weaker creatures at a tenth of the duration, I'm sure.

[Legio_MCMLXXXVII]

So, reading through this thread, I'm not sure I see how this is a huge balance issue. The earliest thing you're likely to want to make semi-permanent is probably going to be on the IV or V list, at which point a single monster is less impressive than you might think, especially since it's not liable to survive more than one combat, meaning you're expending resources for a minimal gain. I'd rather have a way to get Alter Summoned Monster off faster(for cheap), letting me get out a mob of powerful critters in less wasted turns.

[Quorlox]

I'm also uncertain why this combo would break the game compared to other things.

[alexd1976]

Kaouse wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

I'm glad I don't game with people who try to use convoluted rules exploits like this...

I'm a self-professed power gamer, but I'm not THAT good at shattering game balance. :D

If you think this shatters game balance you must not have played with someone who ever made use of Planar Binding.

Or a Sacred Servant Paladin, who can get the entire Planar Ally line without having to pay the costs.

These options are SO much more balanced than expending a feat and two spells for getting weaker creatures at a tenth of the duration, I'm sure.

You are correct.

We pretty much have just all agreed to not do any kind of summoning shenanigans, or binding or whatever you want to call it...

We also don't abuse teleport (save it for escapes only, pretty much).

I'm blessed with an awesome group, they LIKE overland travel and challenges.

Of course, part of that is facing the level 2-3 bandits when you are level 14+, gives the wizard a chance to pick up a sword and smash face.

[Shadowlords]

I didn't read through the entire post, just page 1 and page 7, so idk if anyone has mentioned this, but for all the people saying heighten spell just raises the spell level for DC's and spell penetration ect.

You can do all that by just preparing the spell in the higher spell slot without the feat at all. so then whats the point of the feat if not to actually change the level of the spell. you get what i am saying? anyone?

[bbangerter]

Shadowlords wrote:

I didn't read through the entire post, just page 1 and page 7, so idk if anyone has mentioned this, but for all the people saying heighten spell just raises the spell level for DC's and spell penetration ect.

You can do all that by just preparing the spell in the higher spell slot without the feat at all. so then whats the point of the feat if not to actually change the level of the spell. you get what i am saying? anyone?

No, you can't. You can prepare a lower level spell in a higher slot, but it doesn't change any variables or stats for that spell when you do.

Heighten however does increase the spell level for EVERY consideration of the spell level, and not just for DC's and penetration.

[Shadowlords]

bbangerter wrote:

Shadowlords wrote:

I didn't read through the entire post, just page 1 and page 7, so idk if anyone has mentioned this, but for all the people saying heighten spell just raises the spell level for DC's and spell penetration ect.

You can do all that by just preparing the spell in the higher spell slot without the feat at all. so then whats the point of the feat if not to actually change the level of the spell. you get what i am saying? anyone?

No, you can't. You can prepare a lower level spell in a higher slot, but it doesn't change any variables or stats for that spell when you do.

Heighten however does increase the spell level for EVERY consideration of the spell level, and not just for DC's and penetration.

well then i have been doing it wrong for a really long time, is there a source for it one way or the other, it was explained to me that you use the higher spell slot to increase the DC at the cost of casting a better spell as DC's are based off spell level (or spell slot level in this case)

Bus as a for instance in the way i thought spell slots worked, you prepare light spell in a level 2 spell slot so you can overpower a level 1 darkness spell.

I agree that heighten spell increase the spell level for everything though.

[Dallium]

Shadowlords wrote:

Bus as a for instance in the way i thought spell slots worked, you prepare light spell in a level 2 spell slot so you can overpower a level 1 darkness spell.

Not without Heighten Spell. Light is still a Level 0 spell, regardless of the slot used, if cast without metamagic. That's why Heighten Spell is a feat.

[zook1shoe]

^
| Exactly this, which is also why the Alter - Mount combo works.

[Quorlox]

Shadowlords wrote:

well then i have been doing it wrong for a really long time, is there a source for it one way or the other

I don't know of a source that supports your interpretation; do you have one? The text that states that a higher-level slot can be filled with a lower level spell does not include anything to suggest that the lower level spell becomes a higher level spell.

[LordMerlin]

This was a great read, but just to put things into perspective, we are talking about changing a pony into an arch-angel, right? With a 2nd level spell? Enough said.