This.I mean, if you heighten Cure Light wounds, it doesn't become Cure Moderate.
Just because Summon X spells have level dependent versions at every level doesn't mean this silly tactic would work.
So yeah, you could use this trick, picking from the appropriate level list of summonable monsters. Level 1.
This reasoning was already proven wrong up thread. Mount becomes a level 9 spell. Summon monster IX is a level 9 spell. You can therefore, according to the wording of ASM, choose from the Summon Monster IX list (or Nature's Ally IX, if you want).
It becomes a 9th level spell? Or is treated as a 9th level spell?
I dunno, this seems pretty... *sniff sniff* cheesy?
I would probably house-rule this right into the sun.
It "effectively" becomes a 9th level spell.
But, at least in this thread, saying "effectively" has no effective meaning.
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I dunno, this seems pretty... *sniff sniff* cheesy?
Oh, yeah... I don't think anyone is disputing that! XD
I would probably house-rule this right into the sun.
So would most other posters in this thread... Including the ones saying the trick works per RAW.
I can't stand summoning critters, too much to keep track of.
One pet is good enough for me.
But seriously, is there a PFS stance on this?
I dunno, this seems pretty... *sniff sniff* cheesy?Oh, yeah... I don't think anyone is disputing that! XD
I would probably house-rule this right into the sun.So would most other posters in this thread... Including the ones saying the trick works per RAW.Huh, guess that puts me into the minority.
Now, if we had a martial getting sidelined by it I'd ask the player to not use the tactic for the sake of the players at the table, but I see no real reason to houserule this just for its own sake.
Really? The duration on summoning spells was supposed to be a control...
This essentially removes the need for multiple castings unless your critter dies.
It's a huge jump in caster power, which is why I question it. I don't think it is supposed to work this way.
It's really not a huge jump in caster power. It's a moderate jump, at the cost of a feat most prepared casters never take and have little use for [Heighten Spell] and an additional spell slot.
You can say that spell slot isn't that valuable at higher levels... but that's not true at all.
False Life and Mirror Image, for example, remain valuable assets well into the higher levels. My higher level Wizards almost always have a False Life up while adventuring, replacing it between combats when its burned up.
Multiplying the duration of a spell by 1200 times isn't a huge jump in caster power?
I politely disagree.
I don't think it's game-breaking or incredibly overpowered... But it's too good indeed. As a GM, I'd probably not allow this trick to work.
You're confusing a disposable spell with a buff. Summoned monsters die rather easily. That's intentional, they die so the party doesn't have to.It's really not a huge jump in caster power. It's a moderate jump, at the cost of a feat most prepared casters never take and have little use for [Heighten Spell] and an additional spell slot.
You can say that spell slot isn't that valuable at higher levels... but that's not true at all.
False Life and Mirror Image, for example, remain valuable assets well into the higher levels. My higher level Wizards almost always have a False Life up while adventuring, replacing it between combats when its burned up.
Multiplying the duration of a spell by 1200 times isn't a huge jump in caster power?
I politely disagree.
I'm not confusing anything. Summon Monster IX allows for Trumpet Archons, who have levels as casters, damage reduction and lots of hitpoints.
They are as survivable as the caster who summoned them, and can act as party healer.
This rules abuse changes the basic makeup of the party, allowing the Arcane caster to serve as party healer.
If you're casting Summon Monster IX, then you're already a freaking god. I no longer care about your power level.
You could just as easily have a Planetar Greater Planar Bound, and have had him as your personal b+%@! for the past two levels.
As for an Arcane Caster serving as party healer, there are ways. Among them Infernal Healing.
EDIT: the one place this smells rather fishy is with the use of Wayang Spellhunter [and possibly Magical Lineage, though the wording of this trait is a bit less permissive than Wayang Spellhunter] to Heighten the Mount to a Spell Level the character can't cast yet, therefore producing Summoned Monsters above his level.
This one I'd just outright prohibit.
Summon Ice Devil.
Have Ice Devil use Cone of Cold every round.Rule world.
Seriously, does this seem right? It's NUTS.
What level could you do this at?
Multiply that level by 1200, that's how many Cone of Cold you get from the Ice Devil. Which regenerates, BTW.
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Its basically a quick easy and free way to get slave outsiders. Akin to a calling diagram, but without the pesky need to pay them, persuade them, or worry about betrayal.
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Just think how dangerous he'll be in three more levels when his summons become permanent.
Summoner's Charm (Su): Whenever you cast a conjuration (summoning) spell, increase the duration by a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum 1). This increase is not doubled by Extend Spell. At 20th level, you can change the duration of all summon monster spells to permanent. You can have no more than one summon monster spell made permanent in this way at one time. If you designate another summon monster spell as permanent, the previous spell immediately ends.
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I'm not confusing anything. Summon Monster IX allows for Trumpet Archons, who have levels as casters, damage reduction and lots of hitpoints.
And then since they'll be around all day, you hand them magic items, buff them with spells, etc., to make them 10x more survivable than they would be if you just summoned them for a few rounds.
Hey, why not even have the fighter strip down to his underwear and give all his stuff to the trumpet archon so it can wade into battle with full PC gear. If it lives, heal it for the next fight. If not, it goes poof and you summon another one or put that gear back on the fighter - either way, you're not paying to raise your dead fighter and he still gets full XP, so everybody wins!
Just think how dangerous he'll be in three more levels when his summons become permanent.
Summoner's Charm (Su): Whenever you cast a conjuration (summoning) spell, increase the duration by a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum 1). This increase is not doubled by Extend Spell. At 20th level, you can change the duration of all summon monster spells to permanent. You can have no more than one summon monster spell made permanent in this way at one time. If you designate another summon monster spell as permanent, the previous spell immediately ends.
So what your saying is that casters are already powerful enough, they don't NEED exploits like this to rule the world.
Interesting. :D
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Level 12 wizard could have a Succubus around him 24/7.
I would love that.
Still a rules abuse! But thematically fits with the use of Mount as the starting spell. ;)
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Its basically a quick easy and free way to get slave outsiders. Akin to a calling diagram, but without the pesky need to pay them, persuade them, or worry about betrayal.Except the fact that this requires a 9th level spell every day, whereas Greater Planar Binding is an 8th level spell twice a month.
Given the benefits i'd go with the 9th every day. Outsiders are tricky.
Oh yeah. While this exploit totally works, it's totally superfluous.So what your saying is that casters are already powerful enough, they don't NEED exploits like this to rule the world.
Interesting. :D
Well, not entirely.
It's free and zero risk.
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Just think how dangerous he'll be in three more levels when his summons become permanent.
Summoner's Charm (Su): Whenever you cast a conjuration (summoning) spell, increase the duration by a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum 1). This increase is not doubled by Extend Spell. At 20th level, you can change the duration of all summon monster spells to permanent. You can have no more than one summon monster spell made permanent in this way at one time. If you designate another summon monster spell as permanent, the previous spell immediately ends.
A corollary of something I noted earlier in the thread. This allows such a character to run around with 5 such creatures instead of just the 1 you would be allowed otherwise. Add Superior Summons for a 6th. Sure, it requires you to keep rolling until you hit the 4 on the 1d4(+1) and then use 5 2nd level spells, but that's not bad for such an honor guard.
Saying that an ability is broken because of something a 20th level wizard can do is, of course, kind of a funny concept, though.
My apologies for my previous post, a google search turned up the Darkfire Adept before turning up Augment Calling. Our Wizard [or Cleric] could have stayed away from Darkfire Adept and been Binding Summon Monster 9's since level 11 with no loss of caster levels.
Um... how's that?
Augment Calling allows for additional hit dice of outsiders, not outsiders of a more powerful type.
Unless I'm reading that wrong...
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Huh. I'm kind of surprised that the "what can a mount do" portion of the thread passed 50 comments and no one mentioned the Wartrain Mount spell. :-)There you go. As usual, a bored Wizard with prep time is simply incredible.
Boost CL, extend the spells, supply the kingdom's dinosaur army.
Summon some angels to ride the dinosaurs, pose for album covers.
F@%@ing magic, man.
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Level 12 wizard could have a Succubus around him 24/7.
I would love that.
Still a rules abuse! But thematically fits with the use of Mount as the starting spell. ;)
Hwahuhwaha!
I laughed at this like a 15yo. Now the other bus passengers are staring at me.Damn you, alexd. XD
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Huh. I'm kind of surprised that the "what can a mount do" portion of the thread passed 50 comments and no one mentioned the Wartrain Mount spell. :-)There you go. As usual, a bored Wizard with prep time is simply incredible.
Boost CL, extend the spells, supply the kingdom's dinosaur army.
Summon some angels to ride the dinosaurs, pose for album covers.
F@%@ing magic, man.
One of the reality breaking RAW tricks isn't open to Wizards without Mystic Past Life?
Paizo has lost their touch, when is 2.0, 5th Edition wins, etc.
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My apologies for my previous post, a google search turned up the Darkfire Adept before turning up Augment Calling. Our Wizard [or Cleric] could have stayed away from Darkfire Adept and been Binding Summon Monster 9's since level 11 with no loss of caster levels.Um... how's that?
Augment Calling allows for additional hit dice of outsiders, not outsiders of a more powerful type.
Unless I'm reading that wrong...
Read Planar binding carefully.
All of the Summon Monster 9's have 14 or fewer hit dice.
This means through Planar Binding and Augment Calling an 11th level Wizard or Cleric is Binding creatures on the Summon Monster 9 list [including the Ice Devil or Trumpet Archon, or comparable creatures not even on the list] for Days Per Caster Level.
Ah, I read that as allowing you to summon two more hitdice worth of creatures, not a higher level creature. Is that what it says? It raises the hitdice of one creature by two?
I really do judge things conservatively...
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Level 12 wizard could have a Succubus around him 24/7.
I would love that.
Still a rules abuse! But thematically fits with the use of Mount as the starting spell. ;)
Hwahuhwaha!
I laughed at this like a 15yo. Now the other bus passengers are staring at me.Damn you, alexd. XD
I'm also pretty sure she keeps the bit, bridle and saddle...
Again, thought it allowed for two more hitdice of outsiders, like, choose two critters at one hit die each. Raising the die cap on critters you can summon, I would have wrote it like "the outsider you summon may be two hitdice greater than you normally could summon".
I see how you could read it the other way though.
You know, I'm having difficulty finding Augment Calling for some reason.
You aren't allowed to use it to summon a single, two hit die outsider, in addition to what you normally do?
Would that option just be right out? I thought it sort of looked like you could.
*shrugs*
I still think that having something multiply a spell duration 1200 times is a mistake.
Wonder how long it will take to errata...
I've linked it a few different times Alex, but here it is again.
And yes, if you were otherwise going to Call fewer than three outsiders you could add an additional 2 hit die one to the list. Why on earth you'd bother I can't imagine, but you could.
The vast majority of the time I'd be using it either to Call an outsider near the max capacity or two of roughly equal power, but that's just me.
Thanks for the link.
I don't see any reason why you couldn't use this to get a small elemental in addition to whatever else your spell gets you.
Seems to me the specific text of the Feat should allow you to summon a fourth creature (or a second one), or really just two more hit dice worth of creatures, like it says.
Unless there is something PREVENTING that...
So.
If, in fact, this feat DOES allow for that, perhaps that is what it is intended to do.
Perhaps it doesn't allow you to exceed hit dice maximums at all, I mean, feats that add caster levels SAY so, feats that exceed damage dice caps SAY so (Intensified Spell)...
Why doesn't this one specify something like that? It says you can call two additional hit dice, not that you can summon a creature you couldn't normally summon.
Perhaps it isn't as good as people think.
Feats that aren't super awesome, and don't scale, have been around since the CRB.
Dodge, Weapon Focus... these don't scale, and mean less and less as you level.
The precedent is there. Not all feats are great.
Just something to consider. I think you can read it "my way" or "your way", but I'm pretty sure both are legal, and if both are, then it is subject to debate.
I don't think something that results in a combat capable creature with a x1200 duration multiplier was what they intended.
To the ones defending the exploit. Well done, congratulations.
Too bad no DM, ever, is going to accept it in his game. :P
You are incorrect, sir. I, for one, would welcome this in (some) games I run. Could be quite fun!
(It should be a matter of note, however, that I'd also accept mythic archmage-dual path-heirophant rogues with minor magic talent who can thus cast every spell in the game by expending mythic power.)
EDIT:
Ninja'd by Anzyr, EDIT: and Serghar Cromwell. Also:
And thus, this argument boils down to how the word effective is read.
FAQing for you, although I'd laugh if a GM actually allowed this to fly in a game.
Laugh free and well, my friend. Free and well. :D