2 hour / level summoned monsters


Rules Questions

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Then it seems we agree more than we disagree about the rules.

Intelligent summoned creatures are controlled by the GM. As long as they're serving willingly and faithfully as a mount, and you can be sure a demon isn't going to have a broad definition of their servitude, the GM can run them like any other NPC.

That said, I would expect most intelligent creatures summoned for hours at a time to actively refuse to put up a fight, even in self-defense. If they "die" then they don't die; they're just released from service. I'd imagine quite a few intelligent creatures bound this easy would come up with creative ways to commit suicide while in the service as a mount.


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MeanMutton wrote:
That said, I would expect most intelligent creatures summoned for hours at a time to actively refuse to put up a fight, even in self-defense. If they "die" then they don't die; they're just released from service. I'd imagine quite a few intelligent creatures bound this easy would come up with creative ways to commit suicide while in the service as a mount.

? If a DM insisted on playing intelligent monsters like this, I would strongly question his outlook on life. ;)

That said, the magic makes them willing to serve as a mount, committing suicide or wanting to 'disappear' before the time is up certainly runs counter to that magically induced compulsion.


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I sort of think the fact that they serve "willingly" implies that they aren't seething with a resentment that will cause them to sabotage the summoner's plan at the first opportunity. Maybe the spell just causes the summoned creature to want to serve as a mount, so that's what they do. Whether they can be persuaded to help fight or not depends entirely on the creature itself.


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That's what makes the most sense to me. And self-defense seems like a no-brainer.


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Best form of self-defence is fleeing, especially for a mount ;)


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Diego Rossi wrote:

You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount.

Pretty straightforward, unless you don't want to see.

It is constrained into serving "willingly and well" as a mount.

Serving well as mount mean exactly that. If you order it to do something that make it serve less well as a mount you go against the spell constraint.

Umm...Mounted Combat exists. Mounts can attack. Mounts can attack things even without you riding them. All of this is RAW.

There is no inherent limitation in the Mount spell that says your pony can't attack. It's just not recommended since it's CR 1 creature eating an inherent -5 to hit, thanks to the "Docile" special ability of the light horse/pony.

Unless you want to say that an Altered Summon Creature retains the special abilities of whatever it was previously (a HUGE can of worms you don't want to open), your argument falls flat on it's face.

The most you can argue is that you need to Push a monster to do something as you would a mount, but if it understands your language even that is shaky at best.


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I'm pretty sure defending his owner is among the basic work duty for a mount. At least thats what western movies have teached me.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DSXMachina wrote:
Best form of self-defence is fleeing, especially for a mount ;)

Got it, all mounts retreat from battle.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
DSXMachina wrote:
Best form of self-defence is fleeing, especially for a mount ;)
Got it, all mounts retreat from battle.

Yep :P

And they're made from coconuts.


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I'm going to be allowing this in my games even if it gets FAQed. This is awesome and it's a shame that those of you pretending it doesn't work can't see that.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Serghar Cromwell wrote:
I'm going to be allowing this in my games even if it gets FAQed. This is awesome and it's a shame that those of you pretending it doesn't work can't see that.

And of course, you're pretending that it's not cheese smelling enough to make Limberger blanch.


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Whatever the players can do, the GM can do better. The primary goal should be fun, not whining about anything that doesn't fit in a small little box of orthodoxy.

The Exchange

_Ozy_ wrote:
Whatever the players can do, the GM can do better. The primary goal should be fun, not whining about anything that doesn't fit in a small little box of orthodoxy.

This is absolutely true Ozy. However it becomes an issue when what seems like fun actually becomes a powerplay.

Also, the DM is meant to be enjoying themselves too, so if this combination is used and the GM is happy with the consequences, no problem.

If the GM already struggles with challenges and you bring this monster along, then it might start not being fun.

I suspect DMs in PFS already have enough work to do without dealing with a spell combo that people want to work like a gate spell without being that level.


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PFS is a whole 'nother category of different-than-house-games that I don't often bother with caring what they are or aren't allowing. PFS is a subset of Pathfinder rules, a large subset to be sure, but a subset nonetheless that has a different goal than a standard PFS campaign with a constant group of friends sitting around a table.

But sure, anytime you have a struggling or inexperienced GM up against power-players, you're going to have troubles even if you stick to strict RAW, much less pushing into power-gaming territory. If the GM isn't having fun, then often you need to make changes much more fundamental than splitting hairs on what it means to be a 'mount'.

But then, I digress... :)

Actually a powerful, and legal use of this combo is to effectively nearly double the effectiveness of your highest level summons. Especially with Superior summons, if you use your high level summon spell to get multiples off a lower level list, then use Alter Summons to change one of those back into a monster from the high level list, you've nearly doubled the power of your Summon Monster IX with a 2nd level spell.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Actually a powerful, and legal use of this combo is to effectively nearly double the effectiveness of your highest level summons. Especially with Superior summons, if you use your high level summon spell to get multiples off a lower level list, then use Alter Summons to change one of those back into a monster from the high level list, you've nearly doubled the power of your Summon Monster IX with a 2nd level spell.

Action economy still bites you in the butt, unless you're a Summoner in which case buy a wand of this as soon as it becomes reasonably affordable [maybe 20% of WBL?]


The action economy of this tactic can be improved by having a familiar use a wand of Alter Summoned Monster, assuming you can instruct the summoned creature to forgo its save as mentioned earlier.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Actually a powerful, and legal use of this combo is to effectively nearly double the effectiveness of your highest level summons. Especially with Superior summons, if you use your high level summon spell to get multiples off a lower level list, then use Alter Summons to change one of those back into a monster from the high level list, you've nearly doubled the power of your Summon Monster IX with a 2nd level spell.
Action economy still bites you in the butt, unless you're a Summoner in which case buy a wand of this as soon as it becomes reasonably affordable [maybe 20% of WBL?]

A summoner gets little use out of this exploit, since it specifically calls out creatures created with a "Conjuration" spell. A Summoner's SLA probably wouldn't qualify.

That said, the Summoner qualifies for Augment Summons, so...who knows? With the way Paizo has been going lately though, you can expect all options that could possibly be any fun to be banned with extreme prejudice. How dare a non-wizard character get options that aren't traps!


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^This comment was funnier before I realized it wasn't Dr. Death posting it.


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An utterly cool mount may be worth the spells, even if you can't get it to attack.

An official nerf does seem likely though I do agree; it'll be interesting to see if any use is left in the spell post-nerf.


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A sensible nerf would be to only let it apply to another summon x spell instead of any conjuration like it is now.

Liberty's Edge

MeanMutton wrote:

Then it seems we agree more than we disagree about the rules.

Intelligent summoned creatures are controlled by the GM. As long as they're serving willingly and faithfully as a mount, and you can be sure a demon isn't going to have a broad definition of their servitude, the GM can run them like any other NPC.

Exactly what I am saying. With the caveat that they will not do something that will reduce their efficiency as a mount.

MeanMutton wrote:


That said, I would expect most intelligent creatures summoned for hours at a time to actively refuse to put up a fight, even in self-defense. If they "die" then they don't die; they're just released from service. I'd imagine quite a few intelligent creatures bound this easy would come up with creative ways to commit suicide while in the service as a mount.

If they know that they will not die.

Liberty's Edge

Kaouse wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount.

Pretty straightforward, unless you don't want to see.

It is constrained into serving "willingly and well" as a mount.

Serving well as mount mean exactly that. If you order it to do something that make it serve less well as a mount you go against the spell constraint.

Umm...Mounted Combat exists. Mounts can attack. Mounts can attack things even without you riding them. All of this is RAW.

There is no inherent limitation in the Mount spell that says your pony can't attack. It's just not recommended since it's CR 1 creature eating an inherent -5 to hit, thanks to the "Docile" special ability of the light horse/pony.

Unless you want to say that an Altered Summon Creature retains the special abilities of whatever it was previously (a HUGE can of worms you don't want to open), your argument falls flat on it's face.

The most you can argue is that you need to Push a monster to do something as you would a mount, but if it understands your language even that is shaky at best.

But it will not attack that guy 30' away leaving you without a mount.

If you can guide it with your skills it will fight the people that you are fighting like any other mount, but, like any other mount, it will not go out of its way to attack someone, not it will grapple its target as that would reduce its ability to work as a mount, and so on.

Liberty's Edge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
DSXMachina wrote:
Best form of self-defence is fleeing, especially for a mount ;)
Got it, all mounts retreat from battle.

If they aren't combat trained or a creature used to combat? Yes.


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I'm curious, once again I must ask you where all of these definitions for how mounts behave in combat are listed in the Pathfinder rules.


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One thing to bear in mind is that mounts that are serving 'Willingly and Well' are working WITH their master to the best of their ability. There are times that such a mount [just look at Goblin dogs for an animal type example] will fight alongside of or in front of [dismount, mount charges into combat while master supports from behind with spells or ranged attacks.]

One thing I would NOT allow someone using this combo to do- regardless of ability to communicate- is give a mount an order and expect it to fulfill the instructions alone while the caster is off doing something else. A mount's place is with his master even when it's not beneath his master. Overriding that would require a Dominate or a Geass.

Also self preservation [either the instinct in a non-intelligent mount or a fear of pain in an intelligent mount that realizes it won't really die, barring certain demons who are such psychos they'd probably rock the battle for the hell of it, cackling all the while] is a thing, if the Mount feels that it's losing it's not going to just stand there and keep fighting, it's going to run away and grab its master on the way by [even horses are known to bite the shirt of their partner and drag him away from danger now and then, it happened to my grandmother in her youth.]

Liberty's Edge

avr wrote:

An utterly cool mount may be worth the spells, even if you can't get it to attack.

An official nerf does seem likely though I do agree; it'll be interesting to see if any use is left in the spell post-nerf.

Sure, having a dire tiger willing to work as a mount for you is very good.

Way more hp than a regular horse and way better combat abilities if attacked.
Simply you don't get the versatility of the summon monster spells where the tiger will immediately attack your enemies and try to grapple them.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
avr wrote:

An utterly cool mount may be worth the spells, even if you can't get it to attack.

An official nerf does seem likely though I do agree; it'll be interesting to see if any use is left in the spell post-nerf.

Sure, having a dire tiger willing to work as a mount for you is very good.

Way more hp than a regular horse and way better combat abilities if attacked.
Simply you don't get the versatility of the summon monster spells where the tiger will immediately attack your enemies and try to grapple them.

A mount who is serving 'willingly and well' will protect you as best he's able. In the case of a default not-combat-trained horse that basically means running away unless you override his instincts with the Ride Skill.

With something more combat capable though, things change a bit.


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Huh. I'm kind of surprised that the "what can a mount do" portion of the thread passed 50 comments and no one mentioned the Wartrain Mount spell. :-)

Shadow Lodge

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There really IS a spell for everything.


Diego Rossi wrote:


But it will not attack that guy 30' away leaving you without a mount.

If you can guide it with your skills it will fight the people that you are fighting like any other mount, but, like any other mount, it will not go out of its way to attack someone, not it will grapple its target as that would reduce its ability to work as a mount, and so on.

Do you have any rules text to support your baseless claims? Furthermore, are you actually implying that the creature (with INT of 2) will weigh it's options and refuse to do that which might make it difficult for you to ride them?

Not that it matters, since even an unintelligent animal can in fact be pushed to attack a target without a rider on it. All you need are the proper skill checks.

Handle Animal wrote:


Push an Animal

To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.

Combat Tricks wrote:


Attack (DC 20) The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.

Maneuver (DC 20): The animal is trained to use a specific combat maneuver on command. An animal must know the attack trick before it can be taught the maneuver trick, and it only performs maneuvers against targets it would normally attack. This trick can be taught to an animal multiple times. Each time it is taught, the animal can be commanded to use a different combat maneuver.

Combat Training only gives your mount permanent tricks so you don't have to keep rolling skill checks.

Combat Training wrote:


Combat Training (DC 20) An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal's previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and riding dogs are trained in this way.

So, I'd ask you to provide rules text for your baseless claims, only if you did that, they wouldn't be baseless anymore. Instead, just admit that the "Alter Summoned Monster" spell is broken as hell and poorly worded. I think that's something everyone can agree on.

Especially considering that Summoners can indeed use this to great effect, thanks to SLA's counting as their equivalent spells for all purposes. Use SM6 to summon 1d4+2 Bison, then just start trading each one up for a Triceratops with 0 loss of effectiveness during transition.

Of course, everything would be dead by the point you replaced like 2 of them, but still, it's the possibility that counts.


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Gwen Smith wrote:
Huh. I'm kind of surprised that the "what can a mount do" portion of the thread passed 50 comments and no one mentioned the Wartrain Mount spell. :-)

There you go. As usual, a bored Wizard with prep time is simply incredible.

Boost CL, extend the spells, supply the kingdom's dinosaur army.

Summon some angels to ride the dinosaurs, pose for album covers.

F$!%ing magic, man.

Liberty's Edge

Kaouse wrote:
So, I'd ask you to provide rules text for your baseless claims, only if you did that, they wouldn't be baseless anymore. Instead, just admit that the "Alter Summoned Monster" spell is broken as hell and poorly worded. I think that's something everyone can agree on.
Mount wrote:
You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount.

That is all I need. If you are unable to differentiate a mount from a combat beast it is your problem, not mine.


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TL;DR

RAW yes
RAI no


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Diego Rossi wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
So, I'd ask you to provide rules text for your baseless claims, only if you did that, they wouldn't be baseless anymore. Instead, just admit that the "Alter Summoned Monster" spell is broken as hell and poorly worded. I think that's something everyone can agree on.
Mount wrote:
You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount.
That is all I need. If you are unable to differentiate a mount from a combat beast it is your problem, not mine.

For perhaps the third time, can you please point to the Pathfinder rules that prohibit a mount from participating in combat.

You response entirely begs the question, and ignores the function and capabilities of mounts not only in Pathfinder, but throughout history. The fact that the mount spell doesn't provide a combat-trained mount does not mean that the spell itself prevents the summoned mount from participating in battle, especially if said mount is substituted for a naturally combat oriented alternative.

If I used the spell to substitute a mephit in place of a badger, the mephit wouldn't be prevented from using its breath weapon just because the badger didn't have one.


What a mount can do seems utterly irrelevant.I'm not at all convinced that "willingly serves as a mount" qualifies as a condition. In the context of the sentence that clearly refers to actual conditions like staggered, fatigued etc.


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It's not a condition of the creature, but a restriction of the spell (which function is not modified by ASM).

Also this

Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.

The relevant questions are:

Does the Mount spell allow you to give commands outside of the scope of "serving as a mount"? If not, what does "serving as a mount" entail?

Keep in mind that the Mount spell expressly provides a bit, bridle, and saddle, so whatever creature you swap to should still have those (and equipped).


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That may be rather embarrassing for it if the creature you've chosen is an angel or something.

Liberty's Edge

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Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
That may be rather embarrassing for it if the creature you've chosen is an angel or something.

Maybe, but it would be most excellent if you bring out a succubus.


Archaeik wrote:

It's not a condition of the creature, but a restriction of the spell (which function is not modified by ASM).

Also this

Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.

The relevant questions are:

Does the Mount spell allow you to give commands outside of the scope of "serving as a mount"? If not, what does "serving as a mount" entail?

Keep in mind that the Mount spell expressly provides a bit, bridle, and saddle, so whatever creature you swap to should still have those (and equipped).

Given that combat trained mounts are a 'thing' in Pathfinder, and they can specifically be taught to attack enemies, I find it pretty unbelievable that people claim that 'serving as a mount' specifically precludes attacking.

There is no indication, whatsoever, that the creature summoned as a mount is restricted by the spell to only obey non-combat commands.


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_Ozy_ wrote:
Archaeik wrote:

It's not a condition of the creature, but a restriction of the spell (which function is not modified by ASM).

Also this

Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.

The relevant questions are:

Does the Mount spell allow you to give commands outside of the scope of "serving as a mount"? If not, what does "serving as a mount" entail?

Keep in mind that the Mount spell expressly provides a bit, bridle, and saddle, so whatever creature you swap to should still have those (and equipped).

Given that combat trained mounts are a 'thing' in Pathfinder, and they can specifically be taught to attack enemies, I find it pretty unbelievable that people claim that 'serving as a mount' specifically precludes attacking.

There is no indication, whatsoever, that the creature summoned as a mount is restricted by the spell to only obey non-combat commands.

I do too actually. Nothing in the mount spell suggests that you are prevented from using HA to push the summoned creature to use the Attack trick, although it doesn't arrive combat trained by default.

It's been noted that it's easily enough combat trained with another spell as well, which mitigates some of the restrictions/hassle of convincing it to fight.

And all of this disappears if the creature changes to something that doesn't need HA and with whom you can communicate. (But ostensibly it would also still willingly serve as a mount per the base spell? heh)

Edit: I think the bigger deal here is that Mount is missing the language from Summon Monster

Summon Monster wrote:
It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

Now, it may not be a huge deal that this is missing, since it still "usually obeys", but I suspect that it has somewhat more leeway in its actions than it would if it was conjured through SM.

The biggest deal is that Mount lacks this text

Summon Monster wrote:
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).

Magic:Conjuration:Summoning covers the additional summons part, but this still leaves teleportation and expensive components, even though it's definitely not RAI.

Conjuration:Summoning wrote:
A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.


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Great, so it's even MORE broken than we thought.

Liberty's Edge

_Ozy_ wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
So, I'd ask you to provide rules text for your baseless claims, only if you did that, they wouldn't be baseless anymore. Instead, just admit that the "Alter Summoned Monster" spell is broken as hell and poorly worded. I think that's something everyone can agree on.
Mount wrote:
You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount.
That is all I need. If you are unable to differentiate a mount from a combat beast it is your problem, not mine.

For perhaps the third time, can you please point to the Pathfinder rules that prohibit a mount from participating in combat.

You response entirely begs the question, and ignores the function and capabilities of mounts not only in Pathfinder, but throughout history. The fact that the mount spell doesn't provide a combat-trained mount does not mean that the spell itself prevents the summoned mount from participating in battle, especially if said mount is substituted for a naturally combat oriented alternative.

If I used the spell to substitute a mephit in place of a badger, the mephit wouldn't be prevented from using its breath weapon just because the badger didn't have one.

Ozy, I have pointed out several times the conditions under which a mount will fight. They don't include "Go there and kill that guy while I stay here".

And you don't get to force the creature into doing things that are different from being a mount.
So your mephit will use its breath weapon it that suit it and don't detract from it being a willing mount (so it will not breath on you), but it will not use it on command.

Liberty's Edge

_Ozy_ wrote:
Archaeik wrote:

It's not a condition of the creature, but a restriction of the spell (which function is not modified by ASM).

Also this

Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.

The relevant questions are:

Does the Mount spell allow you to give commands outside of the scope of "serving as a mount"? If not, what does "serving as a mount" entail?

Keep in mind that the Mount spell expressly provides a bit, bridle, and saddle, so whatever creature you swap to should still have those (and equipped).

Given that combat trained mounts are a 'thing' in Pathfinder, and they can specifically be taught to attack enemies, I find it pretty unbelievable that people claim that 'serving as a mount' specifically precludes attacking.

There is no indication, whatsoever, that the creature summoned as a mount is restricted by the spell to only obey non-combat commands.

A pointed out several times, it is not what we said.

The creature is restricted by the spell into being a mount.

The Exchange

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A story I whipped up for how it would play out in my games. Contrived to be sure, but serves its point.
Spoilered for space.

Spoiler:
Hubris the mad they had called him as an apprentice wizard. A name to stick in his craw for what they called arrogance and twisted logic.

However, he had taken the epithet and made it his own, turning their own words against them as he rose in power and crushed his wizarding competitors one by one.

Now his tower overlooked the Valley of Sirm, with a township under his sway and numerous villages paying tithes in his name.

Today he again display to them his power, for the Blue Dragon Twiztrerly had threatened his land and his right to rule it. He had considered teleporting to the lair of the beast but his scrying had shown him many magical defenses that would make that tactic dangerous.

No, today he would could make his power visible to the people, to quell the rumours of discontent he had begun to hear. Let them see the dragon coming, let them quiver in fear and prey for saviour. Then he would appear in magnificant fashion, carried to battle by a being of great power that would aid him in destroying the beast.

He prepared his spells, summoning forth a small horse using such a minor spell as not to drain his resources. The animal looked at him with its dolefull eyes, complete faith and love for his master obvious in its eyes. He stroked its fur momentarily, remembering the days when this beast alone could serve him as mount and how oyal it was.

Then he encanted another spell, more powerful in its purpose. The horse whinnied in fear and pain, its shape twisting, bones snapping as skin tore to allow the new form to rise from its tattered bones and flesh. A scream erupted from the magical field, one of frustration and anger. Before him stood a mighty Angel of the heavens itself. Silver wings gleamed in the light, catching and amplifying the beams so the room fairly shone with the light of the heavens. Massively muscled arms stretched in anger as the equally chiselled torso turned the thing towards its summoner. The creature was naked, except for a bit and bridle forcibly bonded to it as a consequence of the first spell.

It spoke as best it could around the gag, its voice echoing as much through his mind as it did through the air.
"You brought me here, against my will....to serve as your mount!!!? I am a general in the armies of Heaven, I lead the angels to war against those who would destroy the very plains of light itself, and your magic forces me to be your steed! What arrogance is this?!"

Hubris frowned a little, not expecting the tirade. He focused his magic and spoke the words the original spell had allowed. "You will serve me well Angel. Take me to the township below, we have people to impress."

The angels eyes burned with anger yet it bowed to allow the man to be carried across his broad back. It's wings beat, awkwardly given the unfamiliar weight and the size of the man between its shoulder blades. Yet through sheer strength and will, the angel flew off the top of the tower and in to the centre of town.

A crowd had gathered here, screaming and shouting over news that the Blue Dragon from Mt Glozius was finally coming to destroy them. Fear rippled across the people, Hubris could fairly see it like a visible wave. He bid the angel to swoop low across them and land atop the stage in the town square. The creature did so, manoeuvring beautifully while ensuring his master remained upon his back as best it could without being trained in such matters.

The people shouted in awe at the sight of the thing, a creature from legend come to them in time of need. Then they saw it carried Hubris like a steed, serving the man who ruled them as if he himself were a god. They shouted again, this time it was his name they yelled, pleading the wizard to save them from the Dragons breath.

In the distance, a dark speck became visible in the clear sky. It moved with great speed towards the township and lightning crackled across its form as it did so. The dragon was coming, as expected. Hubris smiled.

"Good people, fear not. I have brought forth this Angel from the heavens themselves to destroy this creature." He turned to the Angel, and spoke a command. "Go forth and fight the beast in the air, so as to weaken it for my attacks. It shall not take what is mine, and when it is dead, I shall have its hoard."

The angel looked at the man but did not move. A ripple of noise wove across the crowd and Hubris frowned.
"Angel, did you not hear me!?"

The creature spoke, again its voice muffled by the bit and bridle magically bound to it. "I am forced only to act as your mount mortal. I will not do any other by your command. I will defend these people against yon Dragon, but will do so of my own free will and in a way that suits me. I have no armour, nor any weapon with which to fight this thing. Instead I shall Sheppard the people to a place of safety and deal with this dragon instead. They are intelligent beings, and given the right incentive will negotiate rather than fight. If you wish it dead, fight it yourself and protect those whom you have chosen to rule"

The words echoed throughout the clearing, again murmurings spread. A small boy, clutching his mothers hand and not sure why everyone was so afraid spoke loudly.
"Mummy, how come the Angel doesn't have to Listen to the Bad Mage. Everyone else has to!"

A hush fell across the square. Hubris was livid, the people had cause to question his rule, and all the time the dragon drew closer


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As per RAW, it works... But the CRB is quite heavy and has pointy edges, so I'd rather not have the GM throwing it at me...

Archaeik wrote:
Keep in mind that the Mount spell expressly provides a bit, bridle, and saddle, so whatever creature you swap to should still have those (and equipped).

ROFL!

The idea of summoning a Balor or something with bit, bridle and saddle is too freaking awesome! XD


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Diego Rossi wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
So, I'd ask you to provide rules text for your baseless claims, only if you did that, they wouldn't be baseless anymore. Instead, just admit that the "Alter Summoned Monster" spell is broken as hell and poorly worded. I think that's something everyone can agree on.
Mount wrote:
You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount.
That is all I need. If you are unable to differentiate a mount from a combat beast it is your problem, not mine.

For perhaps the third time, can you please point to the Pathfinder rules that prohibit a mount from participating in combat.

You response entirely begs the question, and ignores the function and capabilities of mounts not only in Pathfinder, but throughout history. The fact that the mount spell doesn't provide a combat-trained mount does not mean that the spell itself prevents the summoned mount from participating in battle, especially if said mount is substituted for a naturally combat oriented alternative.

If I used the spell to substitute a mephit in place of a badger, the mephit wouldn't be prevented from using its breath weapon just because the badger didn't have one.

Ozy, I have pointed out several times the conditions under which a mount will fight. They don't include "Go there and kill that guy while I stay here".

And you don't get to force the creature into doing things that are different from being a mount.
So your mephit will use its breath weapon it that suit it and don't detract from it being a willing mount (so it will not breath on you), but it will not use it on command.

You have indeed made the same claim several times. When asked repeatedly, you have failed, each time, to point out the rules in pathfinder which support your claim.

In fact there are many mounts in pathfinder which will do exactly what you claim they will not, such as goblin dogs.

You are flat out inventing a restriction which does not exist and trying to pass it off as a rule.


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_Ozy_ wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
So, I'd ask you to provide rules text for your baseless claims, only if you did that, they wouldn't be baseless anymore. Instead, just admit that the "Alter Summoned Monster" spell is broken as hell and poorly worded. I think that's something everyone can agree on.
Mount wrote:
You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount.
That is all I need. If you are unable to differentiate a mount from a combat beast it is your problem, not mine.

For perhaps the third time, can you please point to the Pathfinder rules that prohibit a mount from participating in combat.

You response entirely begs the question, and ignores the function and capabilities of mounts not only in Pathfinder, but throughout history. The fact that the mount spell doesn't provide a combat-trained mount does not mean that the spell itself prevents the summoned mount from participating in battle, especially if said mount is substituted for a naturally combat oriented alternative.

If I used the spell to substitute a mephit in place of a badger, the mephit wouldn't be prevented from using its breath weapon just because the badger didn't have one.

Ozy, I have pointed out several times the conditions under which a mount will fight. They don't include "Go there and kill that guy while I stay here".

And you don't get to force the creature into doing things that are different from being a mount.
So your mephit will use its breath weapon it that suit it and don't detract from it being a willing mount (so it will not breath on you), but it will not use it on command.

You have indeed made the same claim several times. When asked repeatedly, you have failed, each time, to point out the rules in pathfinder which support your claim.

In fact there are many mounts in pathfinder which will do exactly what you claim they will not, such as goblin dogs.

You are flat out inventing a...

The phrase "serve you as a mount" is clearly ambiguous. It's well within the GM's usual course of judgement to define exactly what counts as serving you as a mount.


DM_Blake wrote:

I don't believe this should work. Here's why - along with some additional discussion.

More or less what LazarX said.

In addition, if you simply use Heighten Spell on a Summon Monster I spell, you get a higher level version of Summon Monster I (you do NOT get a Summon Monster IX spell). A Heightened Summon Monster spell means you still select from the same list (not a higher level list), but because the spell level is higher, your summoned monster will be harder to dispel.

See here.

So, Heightened Mount at level 9 is still a level 1 spell Heightened to level 9 - even if you persuaded me that you can alter your mount into some other summoned monster, I would insist that you must pick from the same level list as the Mount spell so you could summon a rat or a dog for example. Sure, it might last 2 hours but it's still just a level 1 Summoned Monster that has been Heigtened to a higher level.

This.

I mean, if you heighten Cure Light wounds, it doesn't become Cure Moderate.

Just because Summon X spells have level dependent versions at every level doesn't mean this silly tactic would work.

So yeah, you could use this trick, picking from the appropriate level list of summonable monsters. Level 1.


In regards to what mounts do, they can (and will) fight.

Handle animal can force them (at DC 25, 27 if wounded) to do whatever you want. Don't forget that it takes a move action.

GM controls behaviour otherwise.

If they have tricks (summoned mount changed into different monster... GM call on what tricks it would have) then it gets easier...


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alexd1976 wrote:


This.

I mean, if you heighten Cure Light wounds, it doesn't become Cure Moderate.

Just because Summon X spells have level dependent versions at every level doesn't mean this silly tactic would work.

So yeah, you could use this trick, picking from the appropriate level list of summonable monsters. Level 1.

This reasoning was already proven wrong up thread. Mount becomes a level 9 spell. Summon monster IX is a level 9 spell. You can therefore, according to the wording of ASM, choose from the Summon Monster IX list (or Nature's Ally IX, if you want).

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