ARG Errata discussion thread


Product Discussion

51 to 100 of 112 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

This is possibly the least informed post I have read on Oracles. Lets have a look at a few things shall we.

Mystic Madness wrote:
1)They get 1 + their Charisma mod in channels instead of 3 + Charisma with clerics.

Oh noes, the Life Oracle gets 2 fewer channels per day than the cleric. Would you like to take bets on who is liable to have the higher Charisma. I think we both know the answer to that and it isn't a small number. The casting focused Oracle is sitting at 28-30 by level 10.

Quote:
2)Oracles do not get fort as a high save. Also, a cleric's casting stat, WIS helps with will saves. My Oracle, which has dumped WIS, actually has a problematic will save.

If you find you have trouble with Will saves you might want to consider investing a single trait or save into them. Irrepressible and Steadfast Personality will see it rocket up. Several Mysteries also provide Charisma to saves although that is very late game. Scrolls of Bestow Grace however are dirt cheap.

Quote:
3) Oracles are distinctly inferior spellcasters. Most of the Oracle's benefits of being a spontaneous caster are shared by clerics, who can spontaneously cast cure spells. Clerics get higher level spells one level earlier and also get domain spells, which are generally superior to and more diverse than Revelation spells. Clerics can also more easily change roles by memorizing different spells. They can also leave spell slots open to memorize a crucial spell (such as remove curse or blindness) when the need arises.

Spontaneously casting cure spells is a terrible ability because cure spells in combat are awful and utterly fail to keep up with incoming damage. Out of combat wands are simple, cheap and effective. As for the cleric list, have you actually looked at it. It contains large numbers of redundant spells, many of the key condition clearing spells ignore caster level (making them easy scroll options) and it isn't difficult to have a rounded list allowing you to cover pretty much any base by level 10 Once you start adding in extra spells known FCB, Mnemonic Vestment, Spirit Guide and Paragon Surge there is basically no spell the Oracle cannot make as effective use of. The only advantage prepared casters have nowadays is earlier access which, while huge, is rather offset by being forced to guestimate what they will need on any particular day.

Quote:
4) Domains tend to be much more powerful than revelations. The Travel, Heroism, and Feather Domains are absurdly powerful, just to name a few.

I will take whatever you are drinking. Mysterys are giving out the ability to ignore dex almost entirely, full strength animal companions, mass confusion effects, supernatural teleport, the ability to act in the surprise round and roll multiple times for initiative and many more. And guess what, if there is one you want from a different mystery you can grab it with a Ring of Revelation.

Nowadays there is very little reason to actually play a Cleric as it is trivially easy to access a massive array of spells as a spontaneous caster.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I've got a level 5 kobold life oracle that has been quite fine without FCB cheese.

It's not the end of the world.


I guess it's official now that Suli are the only outsider race that don't get Darkvision.
How odd.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Scythia wrote:

I guess it's official now that Suli are the only outsider race that don't get Darkvision.

How odd.

Not to worry, I'm sure they'll go back and fix it so none of them get darkvision. That'll solve the issue in no time with the usual paizo flair! :P


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Scythia wrote:

I guess it's official now that Suli are the only outsider race that don't get Darkvision.

How odd.

I feel sorry for my Suli Monk player.

Wyroot kinda sucks now.

Pummeling strike doesn't do the uber-crit thing.

No more darkvision, in a campaign where darkness is fairly common.

*sigh* I guess there is some houseruling to do.

EDIT: As a side note, wouldn't the Kitsune Change Shape(Su) ability fall under the Change Shape(Su) universal monster rules and thus let them remain in their human form indefinately anyway. I mean, it's a good clarification for those who haven't memorized chunks of the universal monster rules (read:most people), but it isn't actually a rules change, is it?

Grand Lodge

There are specific rules for FCB rebuilds: (Latest copy of the guide.)

If a favored class bonus changes: You may reassign all of your favored class bonus at each level to any of the now legal options.


Which doesn't really help if you were taking feats and class features on the basis of utilizing a specific FCB.

Silver Crusade

p-sto wrote:


That's fine for you but I'd be fairly agitated if I decided to come up with a backstory for a character using those tables as a guideline to make sure that character's story is lore appropriate only to have that backstory made impossible by the second edition of the book.

Agreed. Hopefully they'll give the players the choice of grandfathering their character ages OR going with the new ones.

In pragmatic terms its no huge deal. Herolab thinks that Thora is 60 odd years old but I've ALWAYS thought of her as 17 and just never mention it except to point out to people that she appears to be a 17 year old human girl while telling the GM that she is really an Aasimar with Scion of Humanity.

Hmm. I just realized that PFS may ignore this change. Virtually no new Aasimar etc characters are being created so its actually easier to just ignore the whole thing

Grand Lodge

p-sto wrote:
Which doesn't really help if you were taking feats and class features on the basis of utilizing a specific FCB.

Yeah, I know. But they are being pretty reasonable with ACG rebuilds, so hopefully they will be equally reasonable with ARG.


pauljathome wrote:
p-sto wrote:


That's fine for you but I'd be fairly agitated if I decided to come up with a backstory for a character using those tables as a guideline to make sure that character's story is lore appropriate only to have that backstory made impossible by the second edition of the book.

Agreed. Hopefully they'll give the players the choice of grandfathering their character ages OR going with the new ones.

In pragmatic terms its no huge deal. Herolab thinks that Thora is 60 odd years old but I've ALWAYS thought of her as 17 and just never mention it except to point out to people that she appears to be a 17 year old human girl while telling the GM that she is really an Aasimar with Scion of Humanity.

Hmm. I just realized that PFS may ignore this change. Virtually no new Aasimar etc characters are being created so its actually easier to just ignore the whole thing

Or they could do a special age change thing for current Planetouched.

Or they could let current characters keep their age and use the old numbers, but new ones going forward have to use the "correct" ages.

Grand Lodge

I like the paragon surge nerf.

whatever you use it for the first time each day, that is the benefit you get for the rest of the day. Still useful, but not "every spell every time you cast it."


FLite wrote:

I like the paragon surge nerf.

whatever you use it for the first time each day, that is the benefit you get for the rest of the day. Still useful, but not "every spell every time you cast it."

That was actually a FAQrata from a while back.


I honestly doubt that the age changes will be all that noticed in PFS. A couple weeks ago I had a player who claimed his Oread character was seven feet tall. I noted that he was about two and a half feet taller than an average Oread but left it at that. Giving people a hard time over character fluff in what's supposed to be a casual game with a different group each week comes off as fairly petty to me.

Silver Crusade

andreww wrote:
This is possibly the least informed post I have read on Oracles.

Even less informed than the other oracle post you were ripping into a couple of days back? :-) :-)

Quote:
Nowadays there is very little reason to actually play a Cleric as it is trivially easy to access a massive array of spells as a spontaneous caster

That is going a bit far. Clerics also get some very nice things. For example, I think you under value channeling. Sure, its not wonderful but, given that its essentially free, its a nice extra. AoE healing can sometimes (rarely, but sometimes) be a life saver (typically when the group is being hit by AoE attacks).

And, as you point out, early access is sometimes HUGE, sometimes nice, and 1/2 the time irrelevant).

I think that Oracles and Clerics are quite comparable, the differences being more a matter of system mastery, allowed sources and type of game than anything in the classes themselves.


A life oracle has the advantage of life link meaning that they can more easily distribute damage to then be healed by channel. But really the best tool for that is shield other which should readily be available to either class.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rynjin wrote:
FLite wrote:

I like the paragon surge nerf.

whatever you use it for the first time each day, that is the benefit you get for the rest of the day. Still useful, but not "every spell every time you cast it."

That was actually a FAQrata from a while back.

And they didn't errata it to stop Versatile Spontanaity breaking it again, so y'know...the more things change...

At least they screwed Wyroot into the ground. Image what horrors could await if Unchained Monks got to actually use most of their class features. Nope, looks like the Ki pool is for Barkskin, an extra attack here and there, and nothing else of significance.


7 people marked this as a favorite.

The overwhelming majority of these nerfs being aimed at casters is just undeniable proof that Paizo hates casters.


I just hope that the Dhampir's fluff no longer mentions elven longetivity in the second printing if their age categories change.

Scarab Sages

Snowblind wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
FLite wrote:

I like the paragon surge nerf.

whatever you use it for the first time each day, that is the benefit you get for the rest of the day. Still useful, but not "every spell every time you cast it."

That was actually a FAQrata from a while back.

And they didn't errata it to stop Versatile Spontanaity breaking it again, so y'know...the more things change...

At least they screwed Wyroot into the ground. Image what horrors could await if Unchained Monks got to actually use most of their class features. Nope, looks like the Ki pool is for Barkskin, an extra attack here and there, and nothing else of significance.

Unless you take the ki leech power, which all umonks have access to.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Johangir wrote:

Page 149—In the mask of stony demeanor spell, change

“Price 500 gp” to “Price 8,000 gp” and “Cost 250 gp” to
“Cost 4,000 gp”

RIP most broken item

I have waited so long for this moment… I think I'm going to cry.


Imbicatus wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
FLite wrote:

I like the paragon surge nerf.

whatever you use it for the first time each day, that is the benefit you get for the rest of the day. Still useful, but not "every spell every time you cast it."

That was actually a FAQrata from a while back.

And they didn't errata it to stop Versatile Spontanaity breaking it again, so y'know...the more things change...

At least they screwed Wyroot into the ground. Image what horrors could await if Unchained Monks got to actually use most of their class features. Nope, looks like the Ki pool is for Barkskin, an extra attack here and there, and nothing else of significance.

Unless you take the ki leech power, which all umonks have access to.

Sure. At 11th level. Or more likely 13th since most people like Diamond Body and Abundant Step.

Scarab Sages

Rynjin wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
FLite wrote:

I like the paragon surge nerf.

whatever you use it for the first time each day, that is the benefit you get for the rest of the day. Still useful, but not "every spell every time you cast it."

That was actually a FAQrata from a while back.

And they didn't errata it to stop Versatile Spontanaity breaking it again, so y'know...the more things change...

At least they screwed Wyroot into the ground. Image what horrors could await if Unchained Monks got to actually use most of their class features. Nope, looks like the Ki pool is for Barkskin, an extra attack here and there, and nothing else of significance.

Unless you take the ki leech power, which all umonks have access to.
Sure. At 11th level. Or more likely 13th since most people like Diamond Body and Abundant Step.

My 8th level Umonk has bark skin, gaseous form, and restoration. I haven't ever run out of ki without a wyroot weapon even with using ki for extra attacks for tough encounters. I see a lot of complaints about the limited ki pool size, but I haven't had any problems in play.


Rynjin wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
FLite wrote:

I like the paragon surge nerf.

whatever you use it for the first time each day, that is the benefit you get for the rest of the day. Still useful, but not "every spell every time you cast it."

That was actually a FAQrata from a while back.

And they didn't errata it to stop Versatile Spontanaity breaking it again, so y'know...the more things change...

At least they screwed Wyroot into the ground. Image what horrors could await if Unchained Monks got to actually use most of their class features. Nope, looks like the Ki pool is for Barkskin, an extra attack here and there, and nothing else of significance.

Unless you take the ki leech power, which all umonks have access to.
Sure. At 11th level. Or more likely 13th since most people like Diamond Body and Abundant Step.

You just have to wait 8-10 levels before you can actually have Ki points to use. That's sure sounds like a fun slog to go through instead of buying a 1000gp weapon to do it... :P


1 person marked this as a favorite.

There goes Scarred Witchdoctor, one of my favorite archetypes. Guess I won't be needing that Orc boon after all. Ah well.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
andreww wrote:
Spontaneously casting cure spells is a terrible ability because cure spells in combat are awful and utterly fail to keep up with incoming damage. Out of combat wands are simple, cheap and effective. As for the cleric list, have you actually looked at it. It contains large numbers of redundant spells, many of the key condition clearing spells ignore caster level (making them easy scroll options) and it isn't difficult to have a rounded list allowing you to cover pretty much any...

I'd argue that spontaneously casting cure spells is a good ability precisely because you don't want to be casting them in combat. It means that you can prepare those slots as all sorts of combat-useful spells, but when it comes down to it after the battle and you desperately need to get someone a bit more HP so they'll be battle-ready in the morning, you can spontaneously cure from the slots you didn't need today.


Imbicatus wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
FLite wrote:

I like the paragon surge nerf.

whatever you use it for the first time each day, that is the benefit you get for the rest of the day. Still useful, but not "every spell every time you cast it."

That was actually a FAQrata from a while back.

And they didn't errata it to stop Versatile Spontanaity breaking it again, so y'know...the more things change...

At least they screwed Wyroot into the ground. Image what horrors could await if Unchained Monks got to actually use most of their class features. Nope, looks like the Ki pool is for Barkskin, an extra attack here and there, and nothing else of significance.

Unless you take the ki leech power, which all umonks have access to.

Ki Leech is also [Evil], so...

Scarab Sages

Ventnor wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
FLite wrote:

I like the paragon surge nerf.

whatever you use it for the first time each day, that is the benefit you get for the rest of the day. Still useful, but not "every spell every time you cast it."

That was actually a FAQrata from a while back.

And they didn't errata it to stop Versatile Spontanaity breaking it again, so y'know...the more things change...

At least they screwed Wyroot into the ground. Image what horrors could await if Unchained Monks got to actually use most of their class features. Nope, looks like the Ki pool is for Barkskin, an extra attack here and there, and nothing else of significance.

Unless you take the ki leech power, which all umonks have access to.
Ki Leech is also [Evil], so...

It's not for the hungry ghost, so it shouldn't be as a ki power. Besides, casting a [evil] spell is not an evil act.


Cheapy wrote:
The overwhelming majority of these nerfs being aimed at casters is just undeniable proof that Paizo hates casters.

This doesn't change anything meaningfully


Imbicatus wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
FLite wrote:

I like the paragon surge nerf.

whatever you use it for the first time each day, that is the benefit you get for the rest of the day. Still useful, but not "every spell every time you cast it."

That was actually a FAQrata from a while back.

And they didn't errata it to stop Versatile Spontanaity breaking it again, so y'know...the more things change...

At least they screwed Wyroot into the ground. Image what horrors could await if Unchained Monks got to actually use most of their class features. Nope, looks like the Ki pool is for Barkskin, an extra attack here and there, and nothing else of significance.

Unless you take the ki leech power, which all umonks have access to.
Sure. At 11th level. Or more likely 13th since most people like Diamond Body and Abundant Step.
My 8th level Umonk has bark skin, gaseous form, and restoration. I haven't ever run out of ki without a wyroot weapon even with using ki for extra attacks for tough encounters. I see a lot of complaints about the limited ki pool size, but I haven't had any problems in play.

I don't run out of Ki either, but that's because I don't generally use Ki based abilities until Ki Leech comes online.

Which isn't a problem for the normal Monk so much, since there's not a ton of great uses at low levels, and the ones that are worth it only cost 1 Ki.

But the Unchained Monk need Ki for EVERYTHING. It's a bigger deal there. And at high levels everything costs 2-4 Ki a pop.

The Exchange

andreww wrote:

This is possibly the least informed post I have read on Oracles. Lets have a look at a few things shall we.

Wow. I am sorry to have hurt your brain with my apparent ignorance. However, it appears you have mistaken my post as a general commentary on Cleric v. Oracle. That is not the case. Rather, I was discussing the differences between a channeller/healer type cleric and my character.

A response to your points:

1. I would agree that a highly Charisma-focused oracle will have more channels overall. That is why I was willing to make a character almost completely focused on enhanced channeling. The Cleric does however obtain more channels with less investment.

2. What is your point? A cleric does not need to burn a feat in search of a high will save. He could take extra channeling and get that much closer to my oracle in umber of channels, or take some other useful feat. BTW, I tried to mitigate this problem by taking Battle Cry for its rerolls. However, that was nerfed (probably deservedly) just a short time before the ARG nerfs. I have not complained about it because it was not a part of the plan when I created the character. I simply changed it to a originally-planned, channeling-related feat, which of course has now been dramatically reduced in value by the ARG nerf.

3. Wow, how you make my point. You mention the undisputed utility of the additional spell known FCB for an oracle, but you apparently forget that this is not an option for me as an Aasimar. I gave this up for enhanced channeling. My only racial FCB option is the now crappy 1/6 revelation upgrade.

I am familiar with the mnemonic vestment, but I find its need to carry a bunch of scrolls around and once a day usage very limiting compared to a cleric's ability to leave a slot open. My Oracle predates the ACG and spirit guide was not an option. I am also not a half-elf, so paragon surge is not an option. Also, wasn't paragon surge nerfed by this ARG errata?

As far as the power of healing spells, I disagree with you. You do not have to heal all damage, just stretch out the endurance of your party in a fight and help those taking a particular beating. You have obviously never played a cleric with the healing domain. Those perform quite admirably with their empowered healing spells, particularly if you give them a familiar to deliver touch spells. Obviously, however, I was sufficiently impressed with the power of FCB enhanced channeling to forgo those options and (in retrospect, unwisely)choose a channeling-focused oracle instead.

4. I agree that oracle mysteries other than the life mystery have a number of powerful options. I was discussing the life oracle, which has significantly less impressive revelations. I also suggest that you look up the ring of revelation, as it does not work the way you think it does. It only provides an additional revelation (or use of an already selected revelation) that falls within your chosen mystery.

My point about Cleric domains was that channeling is not a feature of any particular domain, unlike with the Oracle who must have the life mystery to channel, so that Clerics can focus on other things and still be effective at healing, channeled or otherwise. Moreover, the raw power of the healing subdomain is simply not available to oracles. The Aasimar Life Oracle FCB was one of the few significant healing advantages available to oracles.


Imbicatus wrote:


My 8th level Umonk has bark skin, gaseous form, and restoration. I haven't ever run out of ki without a wyroot weapon even with using ki for extra attacks for tough encounters. I see a lot of complaints about the limited ki pool size, but I haven't had any problems in play.

You've had the exact opposite experience than he because I've found ki challenging to keep above 0 WITH a wyroot weapon. Without it, I might as well pretend I don't have a pool until I get leech.

Imbicatus wrote:
It's not for the hungry ghost, so it shouldn't be as a ki power. Besides, casting a [evil] spell is not an evil act.

I hear a LOT of people complain about the issues they have with somebody using infernal healing. No one's safe when the paladin starts sensing evil continuously from their character. :P


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

As confirmed by the corresponding PRD update, the change to aasimar, dhampir, and tiefling starting ages was not well thought out. Per the errata, the table changes the base age from 60 to 20 but leaves the random dice rolls by class in the table unchanged. With the overall lifespan and aging points changed to human values, a player who actually rolls the indicated dice for these races could easily get an old or venerable character by sheer chance, with middle-aged characters as the most likely result.

Wouldn't it have made more sense to simply change all starting age values to match human values for consistency?


I'm still waiting for the human FCB for sorcerers/oracles to be nerfed down into 1/4 or something now. If Paizo is so committed to balance, surely, they surely won't overlook one of the most powerful Favored Class Bonus in the entire books.

Maybe the half-elf summoner FCB can go down to 1/8 as well.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Why would you want them to nerf Favored Class bonuses any more?

As-is so very few stand out as better than the boring +1 to Skill or HP ones, and and none of them are really overpowering when they do.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

the nerf to nereid's grace also seems to be a bit unnecessary, considering the spell lists it is on and its duration.


Rynjin wrote:

Why would you want them to nerf Favored Class bonuses any more?

As-is so very few stand out as better than the boring +1 to Skill or HP ones, and and none of them are really overpowering when they do.

I don't. I'm just saying that both are more powerful (or as powerful) than the Aasimar one that they nerfed, and I don't see why they would think that the revelation FCB is that much of a problem when the +1 spells per level FCB (blatantly the most powerful one in the game for sorcerers) isn't. Also, because I'm extremely bitter at these changes.

This is Paizo, of course, so I expect them to do it anyhow, so that we end up with something like this:

Sorcerer FCB wrote:
Add +1/6 of a spell. The spell must be at least 5 levels below the highest level spell that you can cast. You must bring at least 1/2 lb. of chocolate per level of this FCB that you take to share with the gaming table during every session. Online purchases will suffice for games run over the internet.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
The scarred witch doctor nerf was called for, it really needed it.

What it really would have needed is a clarification about how the mask really works. Right now it is an intelligent item without ego, wisdom and charisma scores because it is stated to work like a familiar in all aspects not called out directly.

It just doesn't work as written and not fixing that in the errata is dumb.

Fetish Mask (Su):
At 1st level, a scarred witch doctor forms a bond with a wooden mask. As she gains power, her connection to this mask causes it to grow ever more hideous and grotesque as it absorbs the weight of the self-induced pain that underlies her magic. Her spells derive from the insights her patron grants her while she's enduring the cuts, burns, and other sorts of mutilations she inflicts upon herself. Her fetish mask acts in all ways like a witch's familiar for the purpose of preparing and gaining spells. Rather than communing with a familiar to prepare spells each day, a scarred witch doctor hangs her mask on a wall, tree branch, or something similar and contemplates the agony it represents.

When wearing her fetish mask, a scarred witch doctor gains a +2 circumstance bonus on Heal and Intimidate checks and gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against effects that specifically cause pain or have the pain descriptor. If the mask is destroyed, the witch doctor can create another fetish mask (which almost immediately adopts the shocking appearance of the original) for the same price and time it takes a witch to replace a dead familiar.

At 5th level, the scarred witch doctor gains the ability to add magical abilities to her mask as if she had the Craft Wondrous Item feat.

This ability otherwise functions like and replaces the standard witch familiar.

Everyone I know of treated the mask as a bonded item instead of a familiar, because that removes all the open questions. But neither the text nor the errata mention that.

Right now you have a familiar that looks like a mask, gives some bonuses but otherwise acts like a normal familiar meaning it can use my skills (but what are its mental stats), it is subject to area effects and spells...


3 people marked this as a favorite.

And the stonelord paladin, too, doesn't work as written and would have needed an errata.

Earth Channel (Su):

At 4th level, a stonelord gains Elemental Channel (earth) as a bonus feat, which she may activate by spending two uses of her lay on hands ability, using her paladin level as her effective cleric level.

This ability replaces channel positive energy.


Earth channel does nothing if you do not have channel energy, it only changes what happens when channel energy is used. So instead of removing channel energy they needed to clarify that it can only be used for earth channel.

And as is the stonelord can not take any channel related feats or use channel related equipment, because he can't channel energy.

Apart from the above clarifying how the stone servant works as has been requested in several threads with many FAQ requests would have been good because it is often used wrong.

But again, this errata was just done to nerf not to correct mistakes.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

There's a lot of stuff that needed a ton of clarification but was glossed over for the highly necessary nerfs to Vanara climb speeds and Favored Class Bonuses people might actually consider taking.

Nereid Fascination (an Undine alternate racial trait) for instance.

Actually, you know what, I'ma post a thread.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

When the crane wing nerf came we wondered why they don't use the time for important FAQs instead. When the secondary bonus issue came out we were puzzled why they did not use their time for important clarifications on and on goes it. Now we get an errata and still ask ourselves: Why didn't they errata those things that mattered?


You'd understand someone doing this kind of thing in an MMO where there was PvP and competitive balance had to be maintained. Where's the "competitive balance" in a tabletop RPG? Isn't that what 4e tried, and the resulting product was so universally decried for its blandness that people went over to Pathfinder in the first place?


Imbicatus wrote:
Risky Striker nerf is sad, but justified.

Probably so, but it would have been nice if they'd fixed the level based (instead of BAB based) advancement of the feat while they were at it. If you have this feat, it actually matters what order you took your class levels in, which isn't supposed to ever be the case in Pathfinder. A rogue 4 / ranger 4 and a ranger 4 / rogue 4 get different bonuses / penalties from this feat.

Xethik wrote:
Hooray for actually nerfing casters!

Well. Some casters. Mystic Past Life remains untouched.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

cries why Paizo, why? Didn't you do enough enough with the ACG errata already.

walks off stage as a sad dinosaur shall


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Totes McScrotes wrote:
You'd understand someone doing this kind of thing in an MMO where there was PvP and competitive balance had to be maintained. Where's the "competitive balance" in a tabletop RPG? Isn't that what 4e tried, and the resulting product was so universally decried for its blandness that people went over to Pathfinder in the first place?

Cooperative and competitive are not really mutually exclusive.

Even if players do not directly compete, their avatars and power fantasies do most of the time. Improperly balance ruleset causes people to step over each other even with best intentions and cause dissatisfaction.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ZanThrax wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Risky Striker nerf is sad, but justified.

Probably so, but it would have been nice if they'd fixed the level based (instead of BAB based) advancement of the feat while they were at it. If you have this feat, it actually matters what order you took your class levels in, which isn't supposed to ever be the case in Pathfinder. A rogue 4 / ranger 4 and a ranger 4 / rogue 4 get different bonuses / penalties from this feat.

Oh wow, I never noticed that it said "when your base attack bonus reaches +4 and every four levels thereafter". Weird.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, I started a FAQ thread for it more than two years ago when I first noticed it. Stuff like that is a large part of why I get frustrated with Paizo's FAQ / errata policy.


Envall wrote:
Totes McScrotes wrote:
You'd understand someone doing this kind of thing in an MMO where there was PvP and competitive balance had to be maintained. Where's the "competitive balance" in a tabletop RPG? Isn't that what 4e tried, and the resulting product was so universally decried for its blandness that people went over to Pathfinder in the first place?

Cooperative and competitive are not really mutually exclusive.

Even if players do not directly compete, their avatars and power fantasies do most of the time. Improperly balance ruleset causes people to step over each other even with best intentions and cause dissatisfaction.

Depends. If the Alchemist with mutagens and buffs starts outshining the Barbarian in melee combat all around then yes, there's a problem. But for the most part it's nothing you can't solve in-character, through roleplay. Hawkeye and Black Widow were perfectly valuable members of the Avengers even if they were outshined at every turn by the rest of the team.

Xethik wrote:
ZanThrax wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Risky Striker nerf is sad, but justified.

Probably so, but it would have been nice if they'd fixed the level based (instead of BAB based) advancement of the feat while they were at it. If you have this feat, it actually matters what order you took your class levels in, which isn't supposed to ever be the case in Pathfinder. A rogue 4 / ranger 4 and a ranger 4 / rogue 4 get different bonuses / penalties from this feat.

Oh wow, I never noticed that it said "when your base attack bonus reaches +4 and every four levels thereafter". Weird.

The trouble is AC doesn't scale with level. AC is usually less useful at higher levels than enhancements, the +2 full plate that made you a juggernaut at level 5 is pretty worthless against touch attacks, save or suck and melee attacks with +20 to hit at level 10.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Totes McScrotes wrote:
Depends. If the Alchemist with mutagens and buffs starts outshining the Barbarian in melee combat all around then yes, there's a problem. But for the most part it's nothing you can't solve in-character, through roleplay. Hawkeye and Black Widow were perfectly valuable members of the Avengers even if they were outshined at every turn by the rest of the team.

Hawkeye and Black Widow do have writer fiat in their favor, though. They essentially have a DM taking extra care to make sure that they get to shine, too.

Totes McScrotes wrote:
The trouble is AC doesn't scale with level. AC is usually less useful at higher levels than enhancements, the +2 full plate that made you a juggernaut at level 5 is pretty worthless against touch attacks, save or suck and melee attacks with +20 to hit at level 10.

I'm pretty sure that AC isn't really the issue here. It's that the scaling starts at BAB +4, then it scales based on level, rather than BAB. So taking 4 levels of Ranger then 4 levels of Rogue gets you a +6 to damage, whereas taking 4 levels of Rogue then 4 levels of Ranger only nets you a +4. That's really unintuitive and punishing for no real reason.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
ZZTRaider wrote:
Totes McScrotes wrote:
Depends. If the Alchemist with mutagens and buffs starts outshining the Barbarian in melee combat all around then yes, there's a problem. But for the most part it's nothing you can't solve in-character, through roleplay. Hawkeye and Black Widow were perfectly valuable members of the Avengers even if they were outshined at every turn by the rest of the team.
Hawkeye and Black Widow do have writer fiat in their favor, though. They essentially have a DM taking extra care to make sure that they get to shine, too.

Nor do they actually have players to get upset when they can't keep up with the big boys.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

The scarred witch doctor nerf was called for, it really needed it. The wyroot nerf was also needed but it really hurts. Only being able to benefit from any wyroot weapons once per day is a big hit.

There's no such thing as a 'needed' nerf.

Paizo is really doing everything they can to get me to stop paying Pathfinder... this latest round of ridiculous nerfs to rules was patently absurd. They really don't know who they are anymore - between the billion and one 'special rules' for PFS, the Unchained versions of things muddling long-standing classes so that both versions are simultaneously active (as are both version's 'versions' via archetypes), broken rules bloat like Mythic... honestly, it seems like the only consistent thing they're doing is, upon the release of yet another massive batch of rules, wait and see what's popular, what's being used, what people are enjoying... and then hammer those things out of existence.

I've long since given up trying to make sense of it, but now I'm starting to consider giving up period.

51 to 100 of 112 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Paizo Products / Product Discussion / ARG Errata discussion thread All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.