Killing creatures with regeneration, coup de grace?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Regeneration (Ex)

A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature’s regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.

Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

Format: regeneration 5 (fire, acid); Location: hp.

Can a coup de grace kill an unconscious troll? I say no because it specifically states they can't die while their regeneration is still functioning... Thoughts?


I don't see why it would. It's not one of the "certain attack forms" listed on the Troll's regeneration line. It's not that hard to kill them, though, just touch them with a torch or a tiny bit of acid while they're down. A wizard's Acid Orb or a bottle of alchemical fire will do this just fine.


MeanMutton wrote:
I don't see why it would. It's not one of the "certain attack forms" listed on the Troll's regeneration line. It's not that hard to kill them, though, just touch them with a torch or a tiny bit of acid while they're down. A wizard's Acid Orb or a bottle of alchemical fire will do this just fine.

How about a half-red dragon moss troll? :)


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
alexd1976 wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
I don't see why it would. It's not one of the "certain attack forms" listed on the Troll's regeneration line. It's not that hard to kill them, though, just touch them with a torch or a tiny bit of acid while they're down. A wizard's Acid Orb or a bottle of alchemical fire will do this just fine.
How about a half-red dragon moss troll? :)

Gate it to the negative energy plane


Bandw2 wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
I don't see why it would. It's not one of the "certain attack forms" listed on the Troll's regeneration line. It's not that hard to kill them, though, just touch them with a torch or a tiny bit of acid while they're down. A wizard's Acid Orb or a bottle of alchemical fire will do this just fine.
How about a half-red dragon moss troll? :)
Gate it to the negative energy plane

That's your answer for everything. :P


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
alexd1976 wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
I don't see why it would. It's not one of the "certain attack forms" listed on the Troll's regeneration line. It's not that hard to kill them, though, just touch them with a torch or a tiny bit of acid while they're down. A wizard's Acid Orb or a bottle of alchemical fire will do this just fine.
How about a half-red dragon moss troll? :)
Gate it to the negative energy plane
That's your answer for everything. :P

sometimes i say gate it to the positive energy plane.

think of those planes as the other plane's trash bin for immortals.

Silver Crusade

Nah, CDG won't kill a baddie with regeneration. Need to give it that touch of acid or whatever.

In the past I've run it that if the enemy fails its save it's set to the negative hit point value at which it would die (-Con mod) but regenerates from there. But I don't know if that's standard or the best way of handling it.

Had this come up last week, actually. Party failed to identify a rather high level enemy with regen and after a rousing fight they knocked the enemy out and then performed a messy chainsaw CDG, only to find the bits and pieces of the besplattered monster creeping back together to reform. And they had it just had fast healing. Hah! :-)

It took them several rounds of "oh crap what can we do to shut this off?!" before they found the key element. Several rounds made all the more hilarious by the damaging/debilitating/impeding spells that the baddie had cast still lingering to mess with them. :-)


I'll repeat my second theoretical situation:

A moss troll (regeneration stopped by fire only) as a half-red dragon (immune to fire).

How does one kill this thing?

It's only CR 5.


I've wondered how the Slayer's Assassinate talent works against regeneration.

This line is what makes things really questionable:
"Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration."


"they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning"

sooo... you guys see my confusion? :)


The problem is that a Coup De Grace is still an attack form that deals hit point damage. It's just that it does hit point damage + death.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
alexd1976 wrote:

I'll repeat my second theoretical situation:

A moss troll (regeneration stopped by fire only) as a half-red dragon (immune to fire).

How does one kill this thing?

It's only CR 5.

Strangulation/drowning.

Sovereign Court

alexd1976 wrote:

I'll repeat my second theoretical situation:

A moss troll (regeneration stopped by fire only) as a half-red dragon (immune to fire).

How does one kill this thing?

It's only CR 5.

Suffocation. Once they're at -47hp from the coupe de' grace, it's not hard to do. Just stick their head in a bucket of water.

Edit: Ninja'd


Pillow over the face... gently passing in their sleep.

I've seen this happen in my games. Is that pretty much the only way?

If so, how does one make it so they don't need to breath? :D

Silver Crusade

alexd1976 wrote:

I'll repeat my second theoretical situation:

A moss troll (regeneration stopped by fire only) as a half-red dragon (immune to fire).

How does one kill this thing?

It's only CR 5.

Yeah, in that case it looks like a strict application of the rules would kick out an immortal CR 5 monster. But especially when you get into templating and otherwise customizing enemies you've gotta be prepared for cases that fall outside of the norm and have to be accounted for in some way.

I'd either key the half-dragon moss troll's regen on a different element (perhaps cold) or I'd say that vulnerability to fire from the moss troll base and immunity to fire from the half-dragon template cancel to leave it with fire resist 10 or 5+HD or some such.

Seems like there are three possible conclusions here: (1) that you'd get an almost-immortal baddie that can only be killed by certain attack types; (2) that (contrary to my suggestion) CDG counts as the sort of effect that shuts down regeneration; (3) that the rules system will have weird corner cases like this from time to time (especially once you get into custom combos) and that this is an excellent example of where the GM just has to make a call that makes more sense than the strictest application of the written rules.

I'd choose #3 out of those options, but there are arguments to be made for any of 'em. What works for me and my game may not work for someone else's. Pick what works for yours.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Drowning is correct. One of the adventure paths features a bunch of ogres who drown their troll enemies.


I used something like this in my high level mythic game...

Called them Shock Troopers. The base race was as listed, then I threw class levels on them...

Really wanted to find a way to make them not need to breath...

I realize they are nearly immortal, and I'm okay with that, the party would knock them down and suffocate them to death anyway.

We called it the Big Sleep, because they would actually use pillows at times...

Serious question though, as a GM, is there any way (aside from GM caveat, I hate doing that) that I could remove their need for breathing, by the rules? Magic item that could be applied as a tattoo? (ideally Ex ability, cause antimagic would just shut that down anyway).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Joe M is, naturally, correct here. There are ways to wipe out need for air and food/water (some ioun stones, for example), but all the relatively convenient ones that I know of would be possible to eliminate if someone were truly under your control. I suppose you could do an iridescent prism ioun stone as a tattoo. Or a necklace of adaptation.

There are clearly ways to kill these "immortal" creatures that aren't covered in the rules. For example, if you cut them into sufficiently small pieces that no piece retained the troll's identity (purposefully vague). Or teleported them to the center of the earth (or sun). I would accept certain types of supernatural regeneration overcoming that, but not relatively low-level extraordinary.

Grand Lodge

alexd1976 wrote:

I'll repeat my second theoretical situation:

A moss troll (regeneration stopped by fire only) as a half-red dragon (immune to fire).

How does one kill this thing?

It's only CR 5.

GM Spiderman has the answer: "With great power comes great responsibility."

There are some things a GM should not allow even if the rules 'allow' it... this doesn't only apply to things the players try. :-)


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
alexd1976 wrote:

I'll repeat my second theoretical situation:

A moss troll (regeneration stopped by fire only) as a half-red dragon (immune to fire).

How does one kill this thing?

It's only CR 5.

i heard in another thread that in 3.5 regeneration without weaknesses simply gain fast healing instead.

you can't "kill" it you simply have to make it not a problem anymore. kick in in a hole deep enough and bury it. it will suffocate. push it in a river and let the water pull it away. etc

edit: i got distracted for a while and couldn't click submit this post was actually done like a minute after what i'm quoting :P


Any thoughts on the Slayer's Assassinate working? I know that's not available to most parties though.


alexd1976 wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
I don't see why it would. It's not one of the "certain attack forms" listed on the Troll's regeneration line. It's not that hard to kill them, though, just touch them with a torch or a tiny bit of acid while they're down. A wizard's Acid Orb or a bottle of alchemical fire will do this just fine.
How about a half-red dragon moss troll? :)

Death via Con damage, negative energy attacks, suffocation, starvation, thirst, removing its head and keeping it from connecting to the rest of the body for an hour, should work.

Or - they're immune to fire damage but it doesn't say you have to take fire damage for your regeneration to stop working for a round, just being subject to the attack form. Unless I'm missing something.


smoke inhalation also works (see: smoke, in the CRB).

Wall the regenerating bad guys into an area, say with wall of thorns that is set alight, then several walls of stone. Come back the next day, passwall or disintegrate and opening, kill what's survived, if anything. Collect loot.


I'm pretty sure suffocation and starvation are it (or making them someone elses problem by plane shifting them)...

No ideas on Ex abilities to remove need for air/food?

This is really just me being a jerk to a future group of PCs in the next game I run... they get OP so fast I have to use stuff like this to challenge them. ;)

Mythic lets you do some fun stuff.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
alexd1976 wrote:


No ideas on Ex abilities to remove need for air/food?

so... I think there's an item called an air bag, and an item called... "trail rations" they're both pretty cheap and remove the need for further air or food while in use.

:3


alexd1976 wrote:

I'm pretty sure suffocation and starvation are it (or making them someone elses problem by plane shifting them)...

No ideas on Ex abilities to remove need for air/food?

This is really just me being a jerk to a future group of PCs in the next game I run... they get OP so fast I have to use stuff like this to challenge them. ;)

Mythic lets you do some fun stuff.

u

If they have necklaces of adaptation and rings of sustenance, that solves the problem of asphyxiation/dehydration/starvation. 'course, it also means that the PCs have some entertaining bad guys to deal with that don't take kindly to murderizing their minions in such a cruel fashion. Motivation! ;)


Bandw2 wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:


No ideas on Ex abilities to remove need for air/food?

so... I think there's an item called an air bag, and an item called... "trail rations" they're both pretty cheap and remove the need for further air or food while in use.

:3

*grumble grumble* gonna shift you to the plane of sarcasm you... *grumble grumble*


Turin the Mad wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

I'm pretty sure suffocation and starvation are it (or making them someone elses problem by plane shifting them)...

No ideas on Ex abilities to remove need for air/food?

This is really just me being a jerk to a future group of PCs in the next game I run... they get OP so fast I have to use stuff like this to challenge them. ;)

Mythic lets you do some fun stuff.

u

If they have necklaces of adaptation and rings of sustenance, that solves the problem of asphyxiation/dehydration/starvation. 'course, it also means that the PCs have some entertaining bad guys to deal with that don't take kindly to murderizing their minions in such a cruel fashion. Motivation! ;)

Yeah, didn't know about magical items as tattoos when I last ran the Mythic game that spawned these guys... didn't wanna have cannon fodder all equipped with that much wealth!

Still looking for some way to have Ex abilities remove their need for at least air... food too ideally. Some class that makes them sorta count like undead? I dunno...


alexd1976 wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:


No ideas on Ex abilities to remove need for air/food?

so... I think there's an item called an air bag, and an item called... "trail rations" they're both pretty cheap and remove the need for further air or food while in use.

:3

*grumble grumble* gonna shift you to the plane of sarcasm you... *grumble grumble*

Somehow, I don't think shifting him back to his home plane will be helpful. Much unlike performing a coup-de-grace on regenerators, which will help keep them unconscious for a long-term period! That ought to give you the time to find the energy type that works. Or, you know, find a way to level drain them. That tends to kill things dead.


mourge40k wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:


No ideas on Ex abilities to remove need for air/food?

so... I think there's an item called an air bag, and an item called... "trail rations" they're both pretty cheap and remove the need for further air or food while in use.

:3

*grumble grumble* gonna shift you to the plane of sarcasm you... *grumble grumble*
Somehow, I don't think shifting him back to his home plane will be helpful. Much unlike performing a coup-de-grace on regenerators, which will help keep them unconscious for a long-term period! That ought to give you the time to find the energy type that works. Or, you know, find a way to level drain them. That tends to kill things dead.

See, now we're cooking. Level drain, of course! *makes notes* Thank you!


Of course, a 10 gp flask of acid or two per critter (for trolls) takes care of this. Shove flask into yap coup-de-grace accordingly. For fire-immune, it's the nastiest way.


We've always ruled the coup de grace kills it, sort of like a system shock. But every DM has room to make the decision. I can't help but be reminded of this.

Sovereign Court

Turin the Mad wrote:
Of course, a 10 gp flask of acid or two per critter (for trolls) takes care of this. Shove flask into yap coup-de-grace accordingly. For fire-immune, it's the nastiest way.

Moss Trolls' regen isn't stopped by acid. Hence this thread.

Sovereign Court

Turin the Mad wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

I'm pretty sure suffocation and starvation are it (or making them someone elses problem by plane shifting them)...

No ideas on Ex abilities to remove need for air/food?

This is really just me being a jerk to a future group of PCs in the next game I run... they get OP so fast I have to use stuff like this to challenge them. ;)

Mythic lets you do some fun stuff.

u

If they have necklaces of adaptation and rings of sustenance, that solves the problem of asphyxiation/dehydration/starvation. 'course, it also means that the PCs have some entertaining bad guys to deal with that don't take kindly to murderizing their minions in such a cruel fashion. Motivation! ;)

The Necklace of Adaptation doesn't keep you from needing to breathe - it just makes a never-ending bubble of air around you. Even with it magically tattooed or some such, they could still shove water/sand etc down your throat to fill up your lungs so that you can't breathe.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

I'm pretty sure suffocation and starvation are it (or making them someone elses problem by plane shifting them)...

No ideas on Ex abilities to remove need for air/food?

This is really just me being a jerk to a future group of PCs in the next game I run... they get OP so fast I have to use stuff like this to challenge them. ;)

Mythic lets you do some fun stuff.

u

If they have necklaces of adaptation and rings of sustenance, that solves the problem of asphyxiation/dehydration/starvation. 'course, it also means that the PCs have some entertaining bad guys to deal with that don't take kindly to murderizing their minions in such a cruel fashion. Motivation! ;)
The Necklace of Adaptation doesn't keep you from needing to breathe - it just makes a never-ending bubble of air around you. Even with it magically tattooed or some such, they could still shove water/sand etc down your throat to fill up your lungs so that you can't breathe.

What a horrible way to die...


ew, missed that about moss trolls - I suggest a guillotine or simple strangulation or dipping the chunks into ... I dunno. Something? Me am inebriated.

Sovereign Court

alexd1976 wrote:


What a horrible way to die...

*shrug* - That's basically how people die to pneumonia.


Polymorph effects can (should? might? DM willing) remove racial regeneration and/or immunity.


alexd1976 wrote:

I'll repeat my second theoretical situation:

A moss troll (regeneration stopped by fire only) as a half-red dragon (immune to fire).

How does one kill this thing?

It's only CR 5.

Drown it. In its own blood if necessary.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
thorin001 wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

I'll repeat my second theoretical situation:

A moss troll (regeneration stopped by fire only) as a half-red dragon (immune to fire).

How does one kill this thing?

It's only CR 5.

Drown it. In its own blood if necessary.

this begs the question... can it not breathe if you've cut out the lungs or destroyed them? like if they were broken into tiny pieces shouldn't they be suffocating?


So... a half-red dragon moss troll is immune to fire (unless you rule that immune and vulnerable cancel each other out to some extent), and fire remains the only thing that can disable its regeneration - but it doesn't lose the Moss Troll's default fear of fire. It's still shaken by being 30 feet from a handheld torch. Its own fire breath would be terrifying to it.

By the time someone put its head in a locked strongbox or drowned it, the poor thing would probably be relieved.


alexd1976 wrote:

Pillow over the face... gently passing in their sleep.

I've seen this happen in my games. Is that pretty much the only way?

If so, how does one make it so they don't need to breath? :D

Here comes the weird part: You can kill them by strangulating them. But if you chop off a limb and put the rest into a giant blender the removed limb will grow back... even if it doesn't have a lung or nose or any other part that can actually breathe.

So if a troll would remove his lungs and somehow keeps it from re-growing it can't be suffocated anymore.


So many good ideas here guys, thank you!


Petrify + Shatter

/cevah

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