Bracers of the Avenging Knight and multiple smite abilities


Rules Questions


One player has a paladin 6/ hellknight commander 4 wearing the bracers. If they are facing a chaotic evil creature and activate both smites, what level would it count? I say level 10 smite evil and level 8 smite chaos but others are arguing that it should be a level 14 smite.


Well, the two smite abilities are completely unrelated. The damage bonus from both smites stack (the attack bonus doesn't). So you add your paladin level (6+4) and your HK level (4+4).

Scarab Sages

The effects of the smite won't stack with one another, he would just have the option of using either smite evil or smite chaos on a chaotic evil enemy.
The bracers of the avenging knight add four to the effective levels of a class with a smite. So smite evil would function as if he were a level 10 paladin, and smite chaos would function as if he were a level 8 hellknight.


Segovax wrote:

The effects of the smite won't stack with one another, he would just have the option of using either smite evil or smite chaos on a chaotic evil enemy.

The bracers of the avenging knight add four to the effective levels of a class with a smite. So smite evil would function as if he were a level 10 paladin, and smite chaos would function as if he were a level 8 hellknight.

Please present your argument for why the untyped damage bonus from two different abilities wouldn't stack.


The main argument is the GM is claiming the bracers can only boost one smite at a time so having both activated are effectively a level 14 smite instead of an effective level 18 smite.

Scarab Sages

Casual Viking wrote:
Please present your argument for why the untyped damage bonus from two different abilities wouldn't stack.

Actually reading over the features it appears that the damage bonus does stack. Good to know.


I'm not so sure that it would stack. It specifically says that it you get the bonus to "a class that grants a smite ability" so that indicates that it would only go on the first smite that you used in combat.


The smites come from different classes.


Dungeon Explorer wrote:
I'm not so sure that it would stack. It specifically says that it you get the bonus to "a class that grants a smite ability" so that indicates that it would only go on the first smite that you used in combat.

I disagree, in order to indicate that, you would use language like "one class that grants a smite ability".


shuggoth wrote:
The smites come from different classes.

Yes, but what is the in universe logic behind getting two bonuses from the same item?


Casual Viking wrote:
Dungeon Explorer wrote:
I'm not so sure that it would stack. It specifically says that it you get the bonus to "a class that grants a smite ability" so that indicates that it would only go on the first smite that you used in combat.
I disagree, in order to indicate that, you would use language like "one class that grants a smite ability".

There is no item in the game that works like that. They language was written slightly off but unless a game designer specifically says that indeed that is the items purpose then we will have to disagree. Going on your logic you could take a level in every class that provides a smite that your alignment could allow and stack this same bonus over and over again. In fact the way you describe it you're saying that a Hellknight/Paladin/Chevalier that happens to be a level 20 character would get 32 levels worth of smite. Then that becomes the most overpowered piece of equipment in the game for just 11,500 gold.


Dungeon Explorer wrote:
Casual Viking wrote:
Dungeon Explorer wrote:
I'm not so sure that it would stack. It specifically says that it you get the bonus to "a class that grants a smite ability" so that indicates that it would only go on the first smite that you used in combat.
I disagree, in order to indicate that, you would use language like "one class that grants a smite ability".
There is no item in the game that works like that. They language was written slightly off but unless a game designer specifically says that indeed that is the items purpose then we will have to disagree. Going on your logic you could take a level in every class that provides a smite that your alignment could allow and stack this same bonus over and over again. In fact the way you describe it you're saying that a Hellknight/Paladin/Chevalier that happens to be a level 20 character would get 32 levels worth of smite. Then that becomes the most overpowered piece of equipment in the game for just 11,500 gold.

Yes, I could do that, and be a total lame duck. At some point, spending your swift action to get additional +5 to damage vs one target starts being a bad deal, and that point comes earlier than you may think.


Robe of Arcane Heritage will work with both a normal sorcerer bloodline and one acquired through eldritch heritage. We are not talking huge amounts here, in the case I through up it amounts to an extra 4 damage most times and rarely it could amount to 8


Yes, I could do that, and be a total lame duck. At some point, spending your swift action to get additional +5 to damage vs one target starts being a bad deal, and that point comes earlier than you may think.

Please explain to me how this item would give this bonus twice in universe? It makes no logical sense. Why couldn't we just cast Bull's Strength on the fighter twice in a row? It's the same type of bonus isn't it? So they should stack right? I just don't see the logic of why this single bonus should give it's bonus twice.


It's boosting two separate smite abilities. I would agree with you if they were both smite evil but it is smite evil and smite chaos from two different classes.


shuggoth wrote:
Robe of Arcane Heritage will work with both a normal sorcerer bloodline and one acquired through eldritch heritage. We are not talking huge amounts here, in the case I through up it amounts to an extra 4 damage most times and rarely it could amount to 8

Eldritch Heritage says, "treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer" so it would always be at -2.

It obviously wasn't the game designers intent to let players stack bonuses up like that. Rules exploits are fun and all but unless you can make a good argument as to why it should work the GM will likely rule against it.


shuggoth wrote:
It's boosting two separate smite abilities. I would agree with you if they were both smite evil but it is smite evil and smite chaos from two different classes.

Yeah but since you don't get your charisma bonus twice why should you get this twice?


And Arcane heritage adds +4 to sorcerer level for use of bloodline powers so you get +2 to eldritch heritage powers


So why doesn't the character get their charisma twice if they stack like that?


Dungeon Explorer wrote:
shuggoth wrote:
It's boosting two separate smite abilities. I would agree with you if they were both smite evil but it is smite evil and smite chaos from two different classes.
Yeah but since you don't get your charisma bonus twice why should you get this twice?

Because there are rules about adding the same ability score to the same roll multiple times. You may think you're crafting cunning arguments, but you're really just demonstrating your own lack of knowledge.

On a more positive note, the Bracers do not add to any die rolls. They increase your effective level for a class ability. Similar to how a phylactery of channelng positive energy boost all the channeling pools of a multiclassed cleric/life oracle/life shaman.


Casual Viking wrote:
Dungeon Explorer wrote:
shuggoth wrote:
It's boosting two separate smite abilities. I would agree with you if they were both smite evil but it is smite evil and smite chaos from two different classes.
Yeah but since you don't get your charisma bonus twice why should you get this twice?

Because there are rules about adding the same ability score to the same roll multiple times. You may think you're crafting cunning arguments, but you're really just demonstrating your own lack of knowledge.

On a more positive note, the Bracers do not add to any die rolls. They increase your effective level for a class ability. Similar to how a phylactery of channelng positive energy boost all the channeling pools of a multiclassed cleric/life oracle/life shaman.

There's no need to insult me when I never insulted you. But at the end of the day the wording says "a class" not "all classes" referring to one class not all classes. Which means that it shouldn't stack.


The damage is untyped and one comes from paladin levels, the other from hellknight levels, so it is coming from two different sources. Therefore, damage would stack, but the Charisma bonuses would not because of the same type rule & FAQ about double-attribute stacking.

Also, keep in mind the action economy. Both smites require the character's swift action for that round, so cannot be activated on the same round that they activated the other smite ability, nor can they lay on hands on themselves in any round which they have activated a smite.

-TimD


That makes more sense. But I probably wouldn't allow it in a game I ran it's way too cheesy/power gamer.


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight

Since the ability explicitly says that it functions as the paladin's smite evil ability, and it's coming from the same character... that seems to me like it wouldn't stack.
A paladin with two smite evil sources can't exactly doubly smite evil, the effectiveness of the class ability just adds the two class levels together.

Reading straight from the source, it just seems as though they can choose to smite either the evil or chaotic aspect of their foes.

Just the same as getting a Monk's wisdom bonus from two classes. Even though they're dodge bonuses and -should- stack, they don't because they function as the same ability.


They aren't the same ability, though.
Mechanically, they function in a similar manner, but that does not make them the same ability, only that Paizo didn't feel the need to generate more text and increase page count when it was unnecessary to describe a mechanic that was already in place.

Much like the swashbuckler has an ability that allows them to get a damage bonus based on their level with rapiers and a duelist has a similar ability, a character with both duelist and swashbuckler levels would add them together to determine the total damage bonus - they would not effectively be penalized for having levels in both.

I'm not seeing anything which would indicate that a character cannot both Smite Evil and Smite Chaos. If you've seen something indicating that, please by all means, share and I'll be happy to revisit my opinion on this one.

-TimD

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