Which kineticist element is the most powerful?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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LazarX wrote:
Roadie wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Actually I was referring to the combination of burning infusion and searing flame where the target's fire resistance is reduced by the umodified amount of damage you roll for purposes of determining it's fire resistance.
That does nothing against immunity, and reducing fire resistance by 1d6 per round isn't all that impressive, especially when somebody on fire can make a DC 15 Reflex save every round to extinguish it.

If you're constantly facing fire resistant foes at first level, you've got other problems. And keep in mind that if someone has to take their action to put themselves out, that's a turn where they aren't doing anything else.

Also keep in mind that the fire resistance is reduced by the TOTAL amount of damage you do that strike, not just 1d6.

Searing flesh and burning infusion just reduces the fire resistance by the burning infusion's 1d6 burn damage, not the blast damage. The burn damage + fire resistance lowering is active for several rounds, but each time only 1d6 burn that stacks with the previous damage for lowering resistance.


Only time my PFS pyro ever goes near water anymore is on his own ship. And even then he has flame jet ready to keep him in the air if need be.


LazarX wrote:
Also keep in mind that the fire resistance is reduced by the TOTAL amount of damage you do that strike, not just 1d6.

It's reduced by the "burn damage from burning infusion", which is 1d6 per round, not by the damage of the initial blast.


Personally, from what I've read over the document (i need to re-read it again still) I'd place it like this, from top of the bunch to the bottom of the barrel.

1. Air: Suffocate, Flight, Ability to see through fogs (which can be huge), electricity tends to often (but not always) be less resisted an element and the physical is alright.

2. Water: Solid Defensive Power, Healing, More Battlefield Control, Some interesting Movements, etc...

3. Earth: Very nice defensive power (IMO), Earth Glide, Great at bypassing a lot of DR types, Some battlefield manipulation (minor amount), some debuffery, etc...

4. Fire (very close to earth): Most AOEs, Ability to get past some resistance (but not immunity if I recall correctly), Decent movement abilities, etc...

4.2 (tied with Fire): Can move huge objects later, partial flight, disintegrate is awesome, etc...

As others have stated, I hope that soon they come up with more early talents to flesh out the elements. As much a fan I am of Earth, I'm so tempted by air due to flight and raining down lightning.

Silver Crusade

Third Mind wrote:
As much a fan I am of Earth, I'm so tempted by air due to flight and raining down lightning.

Not to mention if you go with Air's Reach and Ride the Blast (both give zero burn cost and simply modify your blast a bit), you get twice the movement in a turn than a normal kineticist. Although just Extended Range gives you 120 feet, you might as well take it up a notch and make it 240 with Air's Reach. With Extreme Range and Air's Reach you now get to go 960 feet every turn as long as you reduce the burn either through the natural infusion cost reduction as you level up and/or gather the energy. Maybe put Snaking in there too to go around corners and not just a straight line with it. As far as I can tell there's nothing stopping you from just targeting a square or the ground like regular archers can, so that means you can Ride the Blast to get the heck out of almost any kind of trouble you could potentially find yourself in.


My money is on both water and aether. Water gives you heals, kinetic cover, increased land movement, increased water movement, resistance to both fire and cold, multiple types of damage, and access to it's own archetype.

Aether, on the other hand, gets the ability to move 1000 lbs./level up to 60' a round, the ability to bypass dr using it's basic blast, a blast that modifies any other blasts (including eventually composite blasts), a force-based composite blast, heals, kinetic cover, suffocation, spell turning, uncanny dodge, and touchsight on things they attack.

That being said, Air does get the nod for the most things that I looked at initially and went "I want that a lot!"

Scarab Sages

Air just struck me as the element that sacrificed almost everything to get early flight. While other elements get neat utilities like Slick and Cover and neat rider effects like Bowling and Entangling, Air gets... "Gusting"? To be honest, I've never seen the point of Gust of Wind. It's meant to be versatile, but it never seems to come in handy. Also, while constant flying is all kinds of awesome, I feel this character would end up just hovering in the back and firing the same pew-pew every round. It might be cool, but won't it get boring quickly?

I'll admit that Chain seems a pretty powerful choice for an AoE, though. Most AoEs can only do full damage with Fire (Impale being the notable exception), and while Chain loses a bit of power with each link, it can still hit a large number of enemies selectively, even if surrounded by enemies. Suffocate is also pretty harsh. Too bad these come in so late.

(BTW, there's no Cold AoE, right? Pity...)

Quote:
As others have stated, I hope that soon they come up with more early talents to flesh out the elements.

Amen to that! Currently, Slick is pretty unique in offering a non-blast combat option at early levels. I'd like to see more things like that.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Catharsis wrote:


Quote:
As others have stated, I hope that soon they come up with more early talents to flesh out the elements.
Amen to that! Currently, Slick is pretty unique in offering a non-blast combat option at early levels. I'd like to see more things like that.

Yeah, something like a cone-shaped gust of wind that knocks people prone would be kind of neat.


I wonder, can anyone here tell me how you'd be an Overwhelming Soul archetype and not basically be neutered? Sure, you can't get burn, but it seems like that just results in your powers not being as strong as a regular kineticist can be?

Liberty's Edge

Archmage Joda wrote:
I wonder, can anyone here tell me how you'd be an Overwhelming Soul archetype and not basically be neutered? Sure, you can't get burn, but it seems like that just results in your powers not being as strong as a regular kineticist can be?

I veiw it as your really going to work the he'll out of gather power.


Philo Pharynx wrote:

Aether is my choice. Yes, it only has a physical blast until you can composite, but it gives you combat maneuvers, healing, a kind of flight*, the ability to move big objects, disintegrate. It's defense is also the most broad. It affects anything that does HP damage, it's only flaw is that it's ablative.

*If you get self-TK and greater self-TK, you essentially have flight except that can only move in straight lines. Which is pretty good for many circumstances.

Of course only air can get your character to move at 115mph for as long as you want.

According to my reading, if you Expand Element into Air, and take one of the prerequisites for Wings of Air at 8th or 10th level, you can exchange your Self-TK at level 11 for Wings of Air. Save yourself a Talent slot. :P I think they should have added Flame Jet and Self-TK as optional requisites for Wings of Air though. :/

Scarab Sages

Archmage Joda wrote:
I wonder, can anyone here tell me how you'd be an Overwhelming Soul archetype and not basically be neutered? Sure, you can't get burn, but it seems like that just results in your powers not being as strong as a regular kineticist can be?

I also had that impression at first, but it's not that bad. Power-wise, you lose half of the Overflow bonus on damage, plus whatever investment you were going to make into your defenses. You also lose the increasing stat bonuses from having maxxed-out burn at later levels, though some of that is offset by the fact that you have a physical (Dex) and a mental (Cha) stat to boost, which is easier than two physicals. It's also way easier to get +Dex +Cha from racials (Halfling, Musetouched) than +Dex +Con. Finally, you lose the ability to go nova for one or two rounds a day, though you do get a free Internal Buffer that you don't have to pay for (unlike the regular Kineticist) to use for such purposes. It's a hit in power, but it's not crippling.

On the flip side, you gain a high Cha and the two most important social skills. This is pretty damn useful. Remember how people keep comparing the Kineticist's DPR with archers because they're "dedicated blasters"? This single-handedly gives the Kineticist another party role that it can fill out admirably. You can even pick up Steadfast Personality and make up for your bad Will save with your best stat. Overall, it's not that bad a trade.

Come to think of it, I should really reconsider my earlier idea of a Halfling opera singer who discovers he can do amazing things with his voice (aerokinetics)... if only he can hold out until 3rd level to get Precise Shot...

Scarab Sages

Sphynx wrote:
I think they should have added Flame Jet and Self-TK as optional requisites for Wings of Air though. :/

You can switch out utilities for lower-level ones, so you can turn Flame Jet into Air Cushion as a safety net for when your Wings of Air get dispelled...


Catharsis wrote:

Air just struck me as the element that sacrificed almost everything to get early flight. While other elements get neat utilities like Slick and Cover and neat rider effects like Bowling and Entangling, Air gets... "Gusting"? To be honest, I've never seen the point of Gust of Wind. It's meant to be versatile, but it never seems to come in handy. Also, while constant flying is all kinds of awesome, I feel this character would end up just hovering in the back and firing the same pew-pew every round. It might be cool, but won't it get boring quickly?

I'll admit that Chain seems a pretty powerful choice for an AoE, though. Most AoEs can only do full damage with Fire (Impale being the notable exception), and while Chain loses a bit of power with each link, it can still hit a large number of enemies selectively, even if surrounded by enemies. Suffocate is also pretty harsh. Too bad these come in so late.

(BTW, there's no Cold AoE, right? Pity...)

Quote:
As others have stated, I hope that soon they come up with more early talents to flesh out the elements.
Amen to that! Currently, Slick is pretty unique in offering a non-blast combat option at early levels. I'd like to see more things like that.

Uhh... You noticed Air can cast Haste on the party, right?

Scarab Sages

Quote:
Uhh... You noticed Air can cast Haste on the party, right?

True, that's pretty neat. I guess you can pick it up at 8th after Wings (or 10th after Expanded Defense). Pretty late, but better than nothing.


Catharsis wrote:
Sphynx wrote:
I think they should have added Flame Jet and Self-TK as optional requisites for Wings of Air though. :/
You can switch out utilities for lower-level ones, so you can turn Flame Jet into Air Cushion as a safety net for when your Wings of Air get dispelled...

Yep, that'd be the plan for my character. 10th level, trade Self TK for Air Cushion and pick up Wings of Air at the same time. :)


Catharsis wrote:
Quote:
Uhh... You noticed Air can cast Haste on the party, right?
True, that's pretty neat. I guess you can pick it up at 8th after Wings (or 10th after Expanded Defense). Pretty late, but better than nothing.

Why would you not take it at 6th, delay Wings until 8th, and never bother with Expanded Defense? This gives you strong party utility earlier than later, and the delay in flight isn't quite so bad since you can subsist on potions of fly until you can pick up your wings. By comparison, scrolls of Haste have a high UMD and wands of Haste are prohibitively expensive at those levels.

As far as Expanded Defense goes, I'm not too keen on Air's defense power, but I could be wrong. It's theoretically possible to pump its miss rate up toward 50%, but you'd be eating a lot of burn to do it, constraining your options later. Even then, it only works on non spell ranged attacks unless you accept more burn. I absolutely think you don't prioritize it over Haste, and wonder if you're just better off not expanding into it and instead focus on more hit/dmg/tricks.


Aziraya Zhwan wrote:
Third Mind wrote:
As much a fan I am of Earth, I'm so tempted by air due to flight and raining down lightning.
Not to mention if you go with Air's Reach and Ride the Blast (both give zero burn cost and simply modify your blast a bit), you get twice the movement in a turn than a normal kineticist. Although just Extended Range gives you 120 feet, you might as well take it up a notch and make it 240 with Air's Reach. With Extreme Range and Air's Reach you now get to go 960 feet every turn as long as you reduce the burn either through the natural infusion cost reduction as you level up and/or gather the energy. Maybe put Snaking in there too to go around corners and not just a straight line with it. As far as I can tell there's nothing stopping you from just targeting a square or the ground like regular archers can, so that means you can Ride the Blast to get the heck out of almost any kind of trouble you could potentially find yourself in.

That's what I was referring to when I said you could travel 115 mph earlier. By the time you get Ride the Blast, burn isn't an issue.

Archmage Joda wrote:
I wonder, can anyone here tell me how you'd be an Overwhelming Soul archetype and not basically be neutered? Sure, you can't get burn, but it seems like that just results in your powers not being as strong as a regular kineticist can be?

Even back in the playtest, some people are just really unhappy with burn. Taking scaling damage is just not something they are comfortable with. Since your everyday stuff is not powered by burn, and overwhelming power is close to elemental overflow, all they are really down is the stat boosts and novaing. As a tradeoff for not going down earlier and cool socials, it works.

Plus it makes it attractive for charisma-based classes to dip.

Ryzoken wrote:
As far as Expanded Defense goes, I'm not too keen on Air's defense power, but I could be wrong. It's theoretically possible to pump its miss rate up toward 50%, but you'd be eating a lot of burn to do it, constraining your options later. Even then, it only works on non spell ranged attacks unless you accept more burn. I absolutely think you don't prioritize it over Haste, and wonder if you're just better off not expanding into it and instead focus on more hit/dmg/tricks.

Air has the second worst defensive talent. But I'd argue that constant fly is one of the best utility powers. Fire has the worst defensive power and they are stuck with the most resistable element. sucks to be them.

In my opinion, the defensive powers rank:
1 Aether
2 Earth
3 Water (rises to 2 for monk multiclasses)
4 Air (rises to 2 in a gun-heavy game)
5 Fire

Spending burn on Force Ward means that you aren't actually becoming any easier to drop by spending burn. You start out up by your level with no burn. The first point reduces that to half your level. The second point reduces that to zero (barring rounding). The third point put you up by half because your con goes up. The fourth point brings you even again. At the fifth point of burn, you either got down by half your level or up depending on if you put the boost into dex or con. Plus, these HP restore themselves, boost your stats, improve your blasts, and when you go down you are only unconscious, not dying.

When you add it to the fact that it affects all attacks util it's expended, force ward is by far the best defense.

DR comes next. Few monsters penetrate adamantine, so it's generally useful.

The water boon is armor. You get light armor proficiency, so for most people, they are going to wear a magic mithral chain shirt and this defense is halved. People multiclassing with monk will get more milage out of it. Elemental ascetics should be shot and put out of their misery for not simply multiclassing a level in monk.

Air is useful some of the time against physical missiles. Very situational. Incredibly useful in a campaign where you're facing guns.

Fire is useful aginst natural attackers and great in a grapple.


Third Mind wrote:

Personally, from what I've read over the document (i need to re-read it again still) I'd place it like this, from top of the bunch to the bottom of the barrel.

4.2 Aether (tied with Fire): Can move huge objects later, partial flight, disintegrate is awesome, etc...

Aether also has the best defense by a country mile, allows the use of maneuvers in combat and lets you disable traps from 50+5/2 levels away. Add in a level of a trapfinding class (or that Mummy's Mask trait if your GM allows campaign feats), and you're golden.


Philo Pharynx wrote:
stuff

Are we sure Aether works like that? Specifically, I'm unsure how burn interacts with temporary hit points. Cause if burn consumes your THp first, and those THp recover over time, there's nothing stopping you from, say, taking two burn to amp your Ward, waiting 2*level minutes, taking two more burn to amp your Ward, waiting 2*level minutes...

Throw in a ring of sustenance and do all this while your party is finishing up their naps/praying for spells/reading their books/cooking breakfast. Now your Ward is capped only by how many burn you want to accept up to your Con, making it... relatively costless?


No burn doesn't interact with THP. But it doesn't need to. The point at which you drop unconscious is (hp + thp - burn). This doesn't drop below your hit points until burn 5 or 7 or 9 burn, depending on how you prioritize the stat boosts.

Let's say a 12th level aerokineticist getting the avg 5 hp per die. They have 120 hp. With no burn and no force ward, they drop at 121 pts of damage and are dying. With force ward and no burn they drop at 133 hp and are dying. With 1 point of burn in force ward, they drop at 127 points of damage, are unconscious. With 2 points, they drop at 121, 3 points they drop at 127 (assuming the chose con as one of their stats).

With another type of kineticist, they drop at 121 with no burn, then 109, then 97, then 97. they get crunchier.

Now kineticists get crunchier when they spend burn on other things too. But most people at 6th or higher are going to put in enough burn to get their stat boosts at the beginning of the day.

Scarab Sages

Ryzoken wrote:
Why would you not take it at 6th, delay Wings until 8th,

Because if I felt like waiting any longer than necessary for my Wings, I wouldn't have picked Air...? ;o)

Quote:
As far as Expanded Defense goes, I'm not too keen on Air's defense power, but I could be wrong.

First of all, if you have the option to pick Wings at 6th, you're obviously a primary Aero, in which case Expanded Defense gives you a different defense power.

Secondly, an Aero will typically be a dedicated ranged attacker and constantly flying from level 6th on, so they will stay out of melee almost all of the time. Missile attacks are then pretty much the main source of bodily danger they will face. Making even 25% of those miss is a pretty big deal.


Catharsis wrote:
Secondly, an Aero will typically be a dedicated ranged attacker and constantly flying from level 6th on, so they will stay out of melee almost all of the time. Missile attacks are then pretty much the main source of bodily danger they will face. Making even 25% of those miss is a pretty big deal.

25% of the physical ones. In the later game, rays are so much more of a danger.

This is why a lot of aerokineticists go into water or aether at 7th.

Scarab Sages

Philo Pharynx wrote:
Aether also has the best defense by a country mile

I really don't see how you arrive at that conclusion. The Ward is like having DR... once. Then it's gone for the rest of the fight, and probably also for the next fight if anyone in your party is holding on to a minute-per-level spell. The regeneration is ridiculously slow. Meanwhile, Earth and Water provide continuous bonuses that add up to much, much more damage mitigation over the course of a fight.

Quote:
Fire has the worst defensive power and they are stuck with the most resistable element. sucks to be them.

They also have the most damaging offense in the game, so it makes sense they have to take a hit in defense. I don't think resistance is that much of a problem (the blast damage should be high enough to surpass level-appropriate resistance most of the time), but immunity certainly is.

Quote:
Elemental ascetics should be shot and put out of their misery for not simply multiclassing a level in monk.

I hadn't thought that through, but I guess it really is that bad. Flurry and IUAS is all you need from the Monk, after which the base Kineticist's defenses and utilities (and ranged capability) outshine the EA.


Catharsis wrote:
Philo Pharynx wrote:
Aether also has the best defense by a country mile
I really don't see how you arrive at that conclusion. The Ward is like having DR... once. Then it's gone for the rest of the fight, and probably also for the next fight if anyone in your party is holding on to a minute-per-level spell. The regeneration is ridiculously slow. Meanwhile, Earth and Water provide continuous bonuses that add up to much, much more damage mitigation over the course of a fight.

Well, this depends on how fast your combats are. Earth gets 1/2 their level in DR. 6 points at 12th level. If they burn, they get an extra point per burn, but it makes them crunchier overall. So 4 point of burn for DR 10, which will greatly mitigate most attacks. Except that it only works against weapons and natural attacks. No spells, no energy, no adamantine.

At 12th level with 4 points of burn, an aetherkineticist has 36 temp hp that work against everything that does hit point damage. If you take your foes out quickly, you'll be able to absorb everything in THP. The 1 minute per level spell issue where people are running from one combat to another is an issue. But at 12th level, you can probably wait a couple of minutes - you get back 3 per minute at this level of burn. If your casters prefer longer or shorter buffs, you'll have everything.

Water stays at the kiddie table in this discussion. Kinetecists get light armor, and masterwork bucklers don't impose a zero penalty for nonproficiency. Unless you are a monk or playing in a low-magic item game, there's no benefit to this. After all, kineticists already don't need to worry about magic weapons, so they should have plenty of budget for magic armor and bucklers.


That is true in a standard game you are going to have money to burn on items. I like air and electric for the theme but it is the red headed step child. Also blown away that there is no lightning bolt option. Given all that can use torrent I would almost think it was a typo.

On pure power I would rate them a ether,earth,water,fire,air.

Scarab Sages

Philo Pharynx wrote:
Water stays at the kiddie table in this discussion. Kinetecists get light armor, and masterwork bucklers don't impose a zero penalty for nonproficiency. Unless you are a monk or playing in a low-magic item game, there's no benefit to this.

I wouldn't call it "no benefit". At 2nd level, a single burn buys you an AC 3 shield, which is +2 better than what you can afford. At 10th level, two burns buy you an AC 6 shield, which is equivalent to a +5 buckler (25 kgp). Now you can buy yourself a +4 mithral shirt for 17 kgp instead of a +3 mithral shirt and a +3 buckler for 19 kgp, which nets you a +3 AC advantage (and 2000 gp of tip money). I'd call that relevant...

Oh, and Shimmering Mirage gives you a blanket 20% miss chance on top of that from concealment. :D

Scarab Sages

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Hargert wrote:
On pure power I would rate them aether,earth,water,fire,air.

I find it strange how people consider Aether powerful these days. Given how it utterly fails at composite blasts, I would have expected it to fall dramatically behind the curve at level 11th at the latest. I do like its versatility at the earlier levels, but it seems to lead nowhere.

I do agree that Electric should have had Torrent. That's a really strange oversight. At least they get Chain at 11th, but it's a long wait without an AoE until then.


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Can't hydrokineticists swim in wet dream territory with a decanter of endless water? (pun not intended) - moving massive volumes of water at a walking pace: no one can hit you while you drown everything that can't swim or teleport away. Get your buddies to zap something with dimensional anchor, then glomp 'em with a small building's worth of water all about them.

It won't kill everything, but it'd sure kill a whole lotta things with minimal effort.


Catharsis wrote:
Philo Pharynx wrote:
Water stays at the kiddie table in this discussion. Kinetecists get light armor, and masterwork bucklers don't impose a zero penalty for nonproficiency. Unless you are a monk or playing in a low-magic item game, there's no benefit to this.

I wouldn't call it "no benefit". At 2nd level, a single burn buys you an AC 3 shield, which is +2 better than what you can afford. At 10th level, two burns buy you an AC 6 shield, which is equivalent to a +5 buckler (25 kgp). Now you can buy yourself a +4 mithral shirt for 17 kgp instead of a +3 mithral shirt and a +3 buckler for 19 kgp, which nets you a +3 AC advantage (and 2000 gp of tip money). I'd call that relevant...

Oh, and Shimmering Mirage gives you a blanket 20% miss chance on top of that from concealment. :D

Let's keep this to defense talents, because adding in all of the other potential talents makes it really hard to compare. Then we add in things like armor proficiency feats and its all over the place.

True, water saves you money. But the class isn't hurting for money, and the other talents give you benefits that are hard or impossible to buy with money. I don't know of a way to permanently get the level of DR or regenerating tmp hp that Earth and Aether give. I'd give up 3 points of AC for either DR or THP. In a gun-heavy game, I'd definitely give up points of full AC for a miss chance on ranged weapons.

All of the defenses are limited. Aether's limit is that it's ablative, but everything else is situational. Air is ranged and physical only. Water is AC only, Earth is weapon and natural weapon only, fire is melee only. I like the least situational one, even if it has limits.

Catharsis wrote:
I find it strange how people consider Aether powerful these days. Given how it utterly fails at composite blasts, I would have expected it to fall dramatically behind the curve at level 11th at the latest. I do like its versatility at the earlier levels, but it seems to lead nowhere.

True, Aether sucks for composite blasts. But since composite blasts require spending burn or actions, I'm not a big fan of them.

Scarab Sages

Philo Pharynx wrote:
True, water saves you money.

Not only that, but it gives you significantly more AC for a given amount of money.

Quote:
True, Aether sucks for composite blasts. But since composite blasts require spending burn or actions, I'm not a big fan of them.

I'm also not a big fan of full attacks because they limit mobility, but they're the bread and butter of combat. Whereas martial classes get iterative attacks at 6th and 11th, we get Empower at 5th and Supercharge/Composite at 11th. (Oddly enough, Maximize is usually no better than Empower, thanks to the static bonuses.) With Tele, you basically miss out on that second upgrade.


Philo Pharynx wrote:
Even back in the playtest, some people are just really unhappy with burn. Taking scaling damage is just not something they are comfortable with. Since your everyday stuff is not powered by burn, and overwhelming power is close to elemental overflow, all they are really down is the stat boosts and novaing. As a tradeoff for not going down earlier and cool socials, it works.

I was one of those people. It didn't feel right to be playing a CON based character and then had to hit myself in the face until I had wizard hp to get the class to work right. They kind of missed the point entirely by making it a CHA based archetype. Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that there is a different stat archetype, just that it didn't really fix what we didn't like.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Turin the Mad wrote:
Can't hydrokineticists swim in wet dream territory with a decanter of endless water? (pun not intended) - moving massive volumes of water at a walking pace: no one can hit you while you drown everything that can't swim or teleport away. Get your buddies to zap something with dimensional anchor, then glomp 'em with a small building's worth of water all about them.

The volume of water you can actually move is not even a 5-foot cube worth of water until about 8th-level. At best, you get a little less than thirteen 5-foot cubes at 20th-level. Hardly a building.

Scarab Sages

graystone wrote:
Philo Pharynx wrote:
Even back in the playtest, some people are just really unhappy with burn. Taking scaling damage is just not something they are comfortable with. Since your everyday stuff is not powered by burn, and overwhelming power is close to elemental overflow, all they are really down is the stat boosts and novaing. As a tradeoff for not going down earlier and cool socials, it works.
I was one of those people. It didn't feel right to be playing a CON based character and then had to hit myself in the face until I had wizard hp to get the class to work right. They kind of missed the point entirely by making it a CHA based archetype. Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that there is a different stat archetype, just that it didn't really fix what we didn't like.

Con-based casting is a pretty broken thing to begin with (certainly more so than Dex-based melee!). Have you ever seen a character dump their Con? It is valuable.

If you're going to get the full benefit of your pumped-up Con and be tougher than the Barbarian, you'll have to trade in some power somewhere else. And that's exactly what you can do with the regular Kineticist, by simply refusing to accept Burn (or just a little of it). You can dynamically adjust the trade-off between power and durability each day. No archetype needed for that.


So how is this for a build?

Unchained Monk 1/Hydrokineticist x

get the energy based simple blast and an Amulet of Mighty Fists with Conductive on it.

Then work your way into Pummeling style feats.

Benefits:
Good AC(monk defenses + water AC boosts)
Blast damage more than once per round(thanks to conductive)
Better chance to bypass energy resistance(conductive+pummeling)

Cons:
Takes a while to come online


Catharsis wrote:
graystone wrote:
Philo Pharynx wrote:
Even back in the playtest, some people are just really unhappy with burn. Taking scaling damage is just not something they are comfortable with. Since your everyday stuff is not powered by burn, and overwhelming power is close to elemental overflow, all they are really down is the stat boosts and novaing. As a tradeoff for not going down earlier and cool socials, it works.
I was one of those people. It didn't feel right to be playing a CON based character and then had to hit myself in the face until I had wizard hp to get the class to work right. They kind of missed the point entirely by making it a CHA based archetype. Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that there is a different stat archetype, just that it didn't really fix what we didn't like.

Con-based casting is a pretty broken thing to begin with (certainly more so than Dex-based melee!). Have you ever seen a character dump their Con? It is valuable.

If you're going to get the full benefit of your pumped-up Con and be tougher than the Barbarian, you'll have to trade in some power somewhere else. And that's exactly what you can do with the regular Kineticist, by simply refusing to accept Burn (or just a little of it). You can dynamically adjust the trade-off between power and durability each day. No archetype needed for that.

Tougher than a barbarian?... no, not really. Did you see games over-run with scarred witches? I know I didn't. It's nifty and different not super overpowered or anything. What you're talking about is a fraction of the power of a normal caster (false life and greater are only level 2nd and 4th level spells)

As to not using burn I could, but I'd feel horribly screwed for doing so. Plus 6 to hit and damage, 12 extra stat points and ignore crit chance. SO neither option is IMO a good one. Does the barbarian have to stab himself repeatedly before his rage kicks in? Does a monk have to slap himself around so his fists count as magic? Does the fighter need to get kicked in the groin a few times or they can't use armor/weapon training?

It's pretty much like telling those classes how dare they get hp and they need taken down a peg before they get cool class abilities. No matter how you phrase it, it feels like a bad deal that you have to hurt yourself to get your class abilities. It rubs me the wrong way.


Shadowkire wrote:

So how is this for a build?

Unchained Monk 1/Hydrokineticist x
get the energy based simple blast and an Amulet of Mighty Fists with Conductive on it.
Then work your way into Pummeling style feats.
Benefits:
Good AC(monk defenses + water AC boosts)
Blast damage more than once per round(thanks to conductive)
Better chance to bypass energy resistance(conductive+pummeling)
Cons:
Takes a while to come online

I don't see it.

You're spreading your stat points across Dex, Con, and Wis, so while you gain +Wis over a straight kineticist, it's only a couple of points. Meanwhile, you're forswearing use of armor/shield, meaning you're losing the efficiency of armor + hydro defense shield in exchange for hydro defence armor and Wis to AC. You could just as easily pick up EWP and a +1 conductive elven branched spear and go to town. Then you're not delaying your damage dice or your talent acquisition.

Or just blast all day until about level 8, use your level 7 expanded element on your main element to gain an infusion that you use on Kinetic Whip, then use K Whip for reach full attacks.

Really, the only thing you'd gain would be Pummeling Charge, but that comes online pretty late in your career, so... meh?


Shadowkire wrote:

So how is this for a build?

Unchained Monk 1/Hydrokineticist x

get the energy based simple blast and an Amulet of Mighty Fists with Conductive on it.

Then work your way into Pummeling style feats.

Benefits:
Good AC(monk defenses + water AC boosts)
Blast damage more than once per round(thanks to conductive)
Better chance to bypass energy resistance(conductive+pummeling)

Cons:
Takes a while to come online

Conductive wrote:
A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric's domain granted power, sorcerer's bloodline power, oracle's mystery revelation, or wizard's arcane school power). When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, which suffers the effects of both the weapon attack and the special ability. (If the wielder has unlimited uses of a special ability, she may channel through the weapon every round.) For example, a paladin who strikes an undead opponent with her conductive greatsword can expend two uses of her lay on hands ability (a supernatural melee touch attack) to deal both greatsword damage and damage from one use of lay on hands. This weapon special ability can only be used once per round, and only works with magical abilities of the same type as the weapon (melee or ranged).

You won't get Conductive activating more than once per round using an Amulet of Mighty Fist, so you still only get 1 blast per round. However, it probably does more DPS a regular blasting Kineticist.

But, if you wanted to do melee, you should just use Kinetic Blade, it would deal more DPS than using Unarmed Strike + Conductive.


Ravingdork wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Can't hydrokineticists swim in wet dream territory with a decanter of endless water? (pun not intended) - moving massive volumes of water at a walking pace: no one can hit you while you drown everything that can't swim or teleport away. Get your buddies to zap something with dimensional anchor, then glomp 'em with a small building's worth of water all about them.
The volume of water you can actually move is not even a 5-foot cube worth of water until about 8th-level. At best, you get a little less than thirteen 5-foot cubes at 20th-level. Hardly a building.

20' x10' x8' is a small cottage @ 20th level (1,600 cubic feet). 43.2 cubic feet at 6th level isn't all that much unless you've got a trip-n-paralysis buddy on standby to help with the mobile drowning pool. Looks like the final version took a big, big axe to the water manipulator ability. Oh well. :)


Turin the Mad wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Can't hydrokineticists swim in wet dream territory with a decanter of endless water? (pun not intended) - moving massive volumes of water at a walking pace: no one can hit you while you drown everything that can't swim or teleport away. Get your buddies to zap something with dimensional anchor, then glomp 'em with a small building's worth of water all about them.
The volume of water you can actually move is not even a 5-foot cube worth of water until about 8th-level. At best, you get a little less than thirteen 5-foot cubes at 20th-level. Hardly a building.
20' x10' x8' is a small cottage @ 20th level (1,600 cubic feet). 43.2 cubic feet at 6th level isn't all that much unless you've got a trip-n-paralysis buddy on standby to help with the mobile drowning pool. Looks like the final version took a big, big axe to the water manipulator ability. Oh well. :)

I wish the Kineticist were able to apply the Widened spell to his talents (not just blasts either). It would make certain abilities have so much more potential.


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It seems that the devs are very worried with power creep and seem to always err on the side of caution. On top of that we are seeing the same reaction that many have to unlimited spell powers so every effort is made to keep them reigned in. This leads to an under performing class that is useful for making certain theme builds only. The same happened with words of power and despite being a cool idea no one uses it now.


Hargert wrote:
It seems that the devs are very worried with power creep and seem to always err on the side of caution. On top of that we are seeing the same reaction that many have to unlimited spell powers so every effort is made to keep them reigned in. This leads to an under performing class that is useful for making certain theme builds only. The same happened with words of power and despite being a cool idea no one uses it now.

Unless I've missed something in MM or IG, they've yet to use Words of Power in an Adventure Path or a module.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Hargert wrote:
It seems that the devs are very worried with power creep and seem to always err on the side of caution. On top of that we are seeing the same reaction that many have to unlimited spell powers so every effort is made to keep them reigned in. This leads to an under performing class that is useful for making certain theme builds only. The same happened with words of power and despite being a cool idea no one uses it now.

Kineticist was the most popular class in the playtest by far, it had nearly double the amount of posts and comments than all of the other playtests combined. Logically, this would imply that it's probably the most popular class on release as well.

I don't think there will be a lack of Kineticists anytime soon. The class can be used to emulate so many characters from popular media, from Avater-esque bender, to Jedi, to Elsa of Frozen, to characters from the Fairy Tail anime.

The probably could have released a 64 page book for just the Kineticist and sold out. People have wanted this style of class for a long, long long, time.


I wouldn't be surprised if the kineticist got its very own splat book some day.


Melkiador wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the kineticist got its very own splat book some day.

I'd bet at least one 3pp publisher has one out within a month, two tops.


Turin the Mad wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the kineticist got its very own splat book some day.
I'd bet at least one 3pp publisher has one out within a month, two tops.

SOLD.


The problem is that most of the new classes aren't that new feeling. Occultist plays like an inquisitor/magus/warpriest. Psychic is a caster. Spiritualist is a summoner. Spiritualist is really guilty bordering on being an archetype or alternate class.


I honestly think an optimized Kineticist is high tier 3, almost tier 2. They have more control than any martial, they have good damage, they have high durability for a 'caster', they have some really good all day utility and amazing mobility. And for an added bonuses they play very differently from any other class in the game.

And I'd definitely rate Air and Water as strongest, but I don't think it matters to terribly much since your second element can really shore up your weaknesses. Of course if you go purely one element then Fire definitely loses out.


I would like to see some builds at low,mid,high level to see the claim of tier 2? So far I would put them about equal with rogue.


Aether has lowish damage but a ton of utility. Though I do suspect the all day team invisibility will get nerfed fast.

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