Hypothetical Caster-Killer


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

no but seriously 6 monks would destroy a group of casters walking into their dungeon.


Bandw2 wrote:
no but seriously 6 monks would destroy a group of casters walking into their dungeon.

Not if they get soloed by a spring attacking burrowing druid, but otherwise, maybe possibly. Though I suppose a 15-foot reach will let you reach out from underground and just grab people anyways. Zen Archer might be a competitor if they can avoid wind walls. I suppose we can assume the druid doesn't do spring attack burrowing. The new unchained monks don't have awesome will saves, though. :(


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
My Self wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
no but seriously 6 monks would destroy a group of casters walking into their dungeon.
Not if they get soloed by a spring attacking burrowing druid, but otherwise, maybe possibly. Zen Archer might be a competitor if they can avoid wind walls. I suppose we can assume the druid doesn't do spring attack burrowing. The new unchained monks don't have awesome will saves, though. :(

doesn't matter, they're pumping wisdom, mostly just want to flurry kick for the initiators, they need to be tank oriented not damage probably with grapple and dex to CMB since they'll be tangoing with a druid

for your burrowing bard does it specify that it can burrow through rock? if not then he can't burrow through the dungeon.


rules wrote:

Earth Glide (Ex)

A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

The correct thing to do is use your 20x20 lead sheet as a carpet so the druid can't get you. *joke*


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
My Self wrote:
rules wrote:

Earth Glide (Ex)

A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

The correct thing to do is use your 20x20 lead sheet as a carpet so the druid can't get you. *joke*

actually the description of the place describes several wooden objects, they just have to stand on those and wait for it to emerge.


Bandw2 wrote:
My Self wrote:
lots of blah
actually the description of the place describes several wooden objects, they just have to stand on those and wait for it to emerge.

That brings up the image of 6 muscular bald guys in robes standing on desks and tables, staring anxiously at the floor as if it were some sort of "the flood is lava" kids game.


For those suggesting stealth...exactly how high are you getting it?

Lets see what I would expect for the druid's perception if I was building them.

+12 Ranks
+3 class skill
+4 ability score (16+2 wisdom)
+5 competence (Eyes of the eagle)
____
+24 total

An average roll will give a check of +34. Lets say the stealth party wants to stay undetected outside of 30ft, so they need to have a stealth check of at least 32 to beat the druid at the 35ft point. If we assume both sides are taking 10, the entire party needs a stealth mod of 22 (slightly less for members that are starting combat further away). If everyone is actually rolling, the party would want nearly +30 to their stealth check to beat the druid's perception rolls(the druid only needs to beat one of the 6 perception checks in order for the ambush to be ruined). To have a >90% chance of everyone beating the druid, the entire party need to have a bonus to their stealth at least 17 higher than the druid's perception mod after distance penalties (numbers gotten from a Matlab Monte Carlo sim, numbers below). If we use the "outside of 30ft" figure again, the party will need a +39 to their stealth to reliably beat the druid. FYI, if the entire party has a mod 10 higher than the druid after penalties, the druid has a 60% chance(!!!) of noticing at least one of the party.

The good news is that stealth synergy helps hugely. The party only need a mod of 3 less than the druid after penalties to beat the druid 90% of the time. This also opens up the potential for one extremely high stealth character to cover for their allies, but that character will need a large stealth check in order to beat the druid reliably. All characters also need to be able to see each other, which limits tactical positioning if many of the characters don't have things like HiPS.

Of course, this is just the druid alone. You still have to contend with 5 other party members and all their potential class features(summons, ACs, Familiars, possibly 12HD outsiders). That is a lot of stealth checks and a lot of alternate sense types. Especially if there are a couple of improved familiars kicking around. Plus Detect X effects from the casters themselves(unless the entire party hides in the corner with a big fracking hunk of lead in front of them).

Monte Carlo Sim numbers:
modifier difference after penalties/chance for druid to win at least one opposed roll

normal
-20/ 1
-19/ 1
-18/ 1
-17/ 1
-16/ 1
-15/ 1
-14/ 1
-13/ 1
-12/ 1
-11/ 1
-10/ 1
-9/9.999000e-001
-8/ 1
-7/ 1
-6/9.999000e-001
-5/9.994000e-001
-4/9.993000e-001
-3/9.986000e-001
-2/9.961000e-001
-1/9.939000e-001
0/9.888000e-001
1/9.761000e-001
2/9.629000e-001
3/9.450000e-001
4/9.257000e-001
5/8.851000e-001
6/8.418000e-001
7/7.830000e-001
8/7.336000e-001
9/6.553000e-001
10/5.839000e-001
11/5.103000e-001
12/4.318000e-001
13/3.537000e-001
14/2.759000e-001
15/2.051000e-001
16/1.373000e-001
17/9.080000e-002
18/4.690000e-002
19/1.530000e-002
20/ 0

with stealth synergy
-20/1
-19/1
-18/9.860000e-001
-17/9.552000e-001
-16/9.170000e-001
-15/8.543000e-001
-14/7.973000e-001
-13/7.223000e-001
-12/6.432000e-001
-11/5.655000e-001
-10/4.904000e-001
-9/4.168000e-001
-8/3.379000e-001
-7/2.661000e-001
-6/2.082000e-001
-5/1.618000e-001
-4/1.207000e-001
-3/8.080000e-002
-2/5.980000e-002
-1/3.600000e-002
0/1.950000e-002
1/1.050000e-002
2/7.400000e-003
3/2.800000e-003
4/2.000000e-003
5/7.000000e-004
6/2.000000e-004
7/0
8/0
9/0
10/0
11/0
12/0
13/0
14/0
15/0
16/0
17/0
18/0
19/0
20/0


Give someone an anti-magic field shield/weapon/armor on them and some martials that can do very powerful non-magical abilities that can hit hard.

A Monk or two wouldn't hurt either.


Bandw2 wrote:
no but seriously 6 monks would destroy a group of casters walking into their dungeon.

I think if you fought ten different times, you would lose all 10 times.

I think a closer argument would be: Could a group of 6 martials manage to deal any damage to a group of 6 casters?

That is much more interesting imo!


Give every one of the 6 guys an object with a symbol spell on it that is attuned to the whole group as part of their WBL. Good symbols would be:
- 2x Symbol of laughter
- Symbol of insanity
- symbol of stunning
- symbol of death
- Symbol of vulnerability

At first hide all the symbols except for the symbol of vulnerability below the lead sheet. Once it has been triggered the first one to act reveals the other symbols. Now all the casters have to save vs each of them at -4 from the symbol of vulnerability.

For builds take a suggestion from another post that doesn't rely too heavily on WBL.


If we're buying castings of high-levels spells, why not skip ahead to Gating in Solars?


Just a Guess wrote:

Give every one of the 6 guys an object with a symbol spell on it that is attuned to the whole group as part of their WBL. Good symbols would be:

- 2x Symbol of laughter
- Symbol of insanity
- symbol of stunning
- symbol of death
- Symbol of vulnerability

At first hide all the symbols except for the symbol of vulnerability below the lead sheet. Once it has been triggered the first one to act reveals the other symbols. Now all the casters have to save vs each of them at -4 from the symbol of vulnerability.

For builds take a suggestion from another post that doesn't rely too heavily on WBL.

So now we are beating the casters with degenerate magic trap abuse?

How about the martials just pump their UMD, pack a low CL scroll of greater dispel each, and some really high CL explosive rune bombs. Might as well pull an Anzyr, since apparently we have given up on the martials fighting like martials and are resorting to running a bunch of UMD monkeys with very specific tools which let them fake being two-bit casters with loadouts tailored to beat the challenge (while being unusable in actual table play).

If that's what's required to beat the challenge, then I don't see how you could argue that martials don't have a serious problem.

EDIT:

Casual Viking wrote:
If we're buying castings of high-levels spells, why not skip ahead to Gating in Solars?

Also, this.


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Yes, because as I see it magic CAN only be beaten by magic. And I am not one saying that martials don't have a big problem.

I would assume that even 12 level 12 martials defending a dungeon room against 6 different full casters who want to storm it have no real chance without relying on magic traps/scrolls/potions etc.


Snowblind wrote:


If that's what's required to beat the challenge, then I don't see how you could argue that martials don't have a serious problem.

Martials are still warriors and warriors use the best tools of war. Any group of high level humans in Pathfinder, level 10+ who don't specifically specialize in killing and defeating casters, knowing how powerful the enemies are potentially... Is foolish.

If you are a martial and you don't take the tools necessary to alpha strike a caster at these levels then you either:

1. Aren't facing casters and they are rare in your setting.

2. Are foolish.

Seriously... If you know that the enemy can scry you? Make sure you have a way to stop it. If that means setting up traps like the one brought up then so be it. The Wizard has to carefully choose their spells, you have to carefully choose your defenses.

My Paladin, for example, at low levels invested in an illuminating shield boss with a cover that he had inset a gem into that he had someone cast continual flame on.

When the enemy mage cast Darkness, he flipped open the door, and foom. Darkness gone. The caster didn't know he could do that and was really darned shocked when the darkness poofed and she took a sword to the face.

That is the thing... In these kinds of battles...

You don't need, as a martial, an answer to every single thing a caster can do. You just need an answer to the common things that they can do.

If you can stop one, that is normally all it takes to ruin a caster's day.

If you know, for example, that your enemy caster is going to likely call in Solars (unlikely given that these guys were mostly evil) then make sure you have a protection from good handy. You can get one in potion form easily enough. Then the Solar is very limited in what it can do to you.

Enemy is going to rely on Stoneskin? Adamantine. For archers it is common practice to have at least 10 arrows of each kind of major material actually just in case.

Enemy is likely going to scry? Make sure you have runes, or symbols, etc.

Enemy is likely going to teleport and you are defending a location for a significant amount of time? Permanent teleport traps into certain death situations.

Money. It is the great equalizer.

In this case we have a bunch of martials who have minutes to put together a plan to stop a full caster group of adventurers. This is so much different if the martials had time to set up proper defenses to fortify a location against attacks.


Casual Viking wrote:
HWalsh wrote:


Because we already established a few things:

1. There is no realistic way the casters can scry the party. You can't "scry" without having some kind of connection to the party. If you even try it, and have the flimsiest of excuses, then the person you are scrying gets to make a save against the spell with a +10 bonus to resist it.

2. The haversack already got wasted in the opening round so the Wizard cannot get a spare pouch.

3. They have no way to know the PCs have see invisibility active unless they stop, cast detect magic, then want to identify it. Thus they have no way to know.

4. DC 25 will save is easy enough to make at these levels depending on the class and has no effect on the initial ranged barrage.

5. The Zombies never had a chance to be spawned. The casters didn't know that they were there. Unless your casters run around with a bunch of undead for no reason.

1. There's always Clairvoyance and intel from the Earth Gliders.

2. My bad on the Haversack. Then again, you assuming that the wizard hasn't already cast "archery? lol no" before entering.

3. What? I'm saying the casters have see invisibility up. Invisibly approaching them while they listen to the Cavalier is not going to happen.

4. DC 25 will save that's neither enchantment nor mind affecting is going to be a problem for most.

5. A dedicated Necromancer IS running around with a bunch of undead. It's what he does.

For the sake of my sanity, I was not going through the pre-fight buff rituals of 6 full casters in an exercise to determine if the martials had even the slightest chance of victory. You'll also note that my actual dice rolls ended up favoring the martial group, but dice do that sometimes.

Shadow Lodge

Why was no poison used?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
CWheezy wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
no but seriously 6 monks would destroy a group of casters walking into their dungeon.

I think if you fought ten different times, you would lose all 10 times.

I think a closer argument would be: Could a group of 6 martials manage to deal any damage to a group of 6 casters?

That is much more interesting imo!

no because here's the thing, the only thing monks are really really good at is killing casters. especially if there are 6 of them.

any kind of created obstacle can be jumped over, they can run up and grapple you, the melee ones have a short range pounce. They pretty much will make all saves, windwall is a pillar so they can either enter it and shoot up or directly at the guy inside or move around it if it's a flat plane.


The only way to beat high level casters is with high level casters. In this situation the defending martial characters are at a huge disadvantage.

Casting Arcane Eye will allow them to recon the entire complex before they ever enter. In fact, they will probably never enter. Assuming their is not a time limit to this farce, the casters will never enter the area. They will simply allow create a war of attrition which not casters can't win.

Lets say the caster simply use wall of stone to seal off every avenue of entrance of egress. The martials would eventually starve or die of dehydration. Alternatively they may try to break through the walls, which is not an easy endeavor. This gives the casters plenty of time to set up traps. Further, using stone shape will allow them to create the necessary size opening to cast spells in without rebuke.

Ultimately the problem is that the casters can learn a lot about the opposition and their likely abilities that they might possess. The martials assumedly know nothing about the casters, other than their being casters. The casters have many different avenues they can use to attempt to beat the martials, so the martials need to be prepared for virtually anything. But the casters can use their magic to know what the martials have prepared for, and then do what they haven't.

It's also not realistic for the martials to have a build that is super specialized in defeating a specific tactic the spell casters might use (e.g. ones that are proposed) because they would general not be used unless the characters knew that said tactic was going to be used (and they don't).

Knowledge of the battlefield and the ability to capitalize on it is what hands the win to the casters. Ever. Single. Time.


Jacob Saltband wrote:
Why was no poison used?

Because, outside of dedicated poisoner builds, poison is a very expensive save vs. minor inconvenience.


Casual Viking wrote:
Jacob Saltband wrote:
Why was no poison used?
Because, outside of dedicated poisoner builds, poison is a very expensive save vs. minor inconvenience.

Also delay poison is a level 2 spell which lasts hours per level.


HWalsh wrote:
If you know, for example, that your enemy caster is going to likely call in Solars (unlikely given that these guys were mostly evil) then make sure you have a protection from good handy. You can get one in potion form easily enough. Then the Solar is very limited in what it can do to you.

Doesn't work. Called, not Summoned.

HWalsh wrote:
Enemy is going to rely on Stoneskin? Adamantine. For archers it is common practice to have at least 10 arrows of each kind of major material actually just in case.

Nobody "relies" on stoneskin, because challenges to level 7 characters rarely do less than 20 damage per hit, and more likely 30. It's a nice-to-have buff, nothing more.

HWalsh wrote:
Enemy is likely going to scry? Make sure you have runes, or symbols, etc.

Doesn't work against scrying.

HWalsh wrote:
Enemy is likely going to teleport and you are defending a location for a significant amount of time? Permanent teleport traps into certain death situations.

Again, you're no longer fighting 6 chumps in a hole in the ground, you're fighting their higher-level caster boss. Also, "certain death situations" are hard to engineer given the limitations of Teleport Trap.

HWalsh wrote:
Money. It is the great equalizer.

Money. You're demonstrating very well why these chumps might as well be 12. level Commoners.


Interestingly, I'm finding it difficult to trivially shut down the Gunslinger.


Casual Viking wrote:
Interestingly, I'm finding it difficult to trivially shut down the Gunslinger.

Fog effects, walls and will saves should all do the job quite nicely. Honestly the entire martial group may well end up killing each other with a couple of castings of confusion as the caster group withdraws to place bets on which will die first.


Where to begin...lets take it in order.

HWalsh wrote:
Snowblind wrote:


If that's what's required to beat the challenge, then I don't see how you could argue that martials don't have a serious problem.

Martials are still warriors and warriors use the best tools of war. Any group of high level humans in Pathfinder, level 10+ who don't specifically specialize in killing and defeating casters, knowing how powerful the enemies are potentially... Is foolish.

If you are a martial and you don't take the tools necessary to alpha strike a caster at these levels then you either:

1. Aren't facing casters and they are rare in your setting.

2. Are foolish.

Great. Casters are deadly threats. I should note that you aren't suggesting the same for dealing with other martials. It sounds as if casters are much more of a concern than martials and you need to focus on what they do specifically in order to survive. Do you put the same amount of effort dealing with low/no magic threats?

Quote:


Seriously... If you know that the enemy can scry you? Make sure you have a way to stop it. If that means setting up traps like the one brought up then so be it. The Wizard has to carefully choose their spells, you have to carefully choose your defenses.

But you are totally reliant on having another caster set up those traps. Your martials can't do it by themselves. On top of that, the majority of casters can fill the martial role as well if they feel like. Martials need Casters. Casters don't need martials, because they can fill that role themselves just fine. Also, the wizard can prepare spells that target half a dozen defenses, and cycle through them till they hit one that you didn't shore up. If you have a single major weakness, there is a serious risk that the caster will find it(especially since a lot of spells pull double duty - Stinking Cloud denies ranged full attacks and hits Fort, for example). And the caster actually has ways of observing things before hand(and not just scrying). Martials usually don't (aside from things like stealth, which casters can do too just as well).

Quote:


My Paladin, for example, at low levels invested in an illuminating shield boss with a cover that he had inset a gem into that he had someone cast continual flame on.

When the enemy mage cast Darkness, he flipped open the door, and foom. Darkness gone. The caster didn't know he could do that and was really darned shocked when the darkness poofed and she took a sword to the face.

Frankly if the mage was relying on darkness to save them, they either made a really stupid life decision, or were out of better options. Darkvision is fairly common, and many races who possess it appear roughly human. How would your paladin have gone if they had stuck up levitate(assuming no specialized archers and head space) or Mirror Image instead?

Quote:


That is the thing... In these kinds of battles...

You don't need, as a martial, an answer to every single thing a caster can do. You just need an answer to the common things that they can do.

If you can stop one, that is normally all it takes to ruin a caster's day.

You need a little more than 1. You need to get past their passive defenses as well as the spells they are dropping. And you usually won't really know which ones they will be throwing at you, so you will need a fairly broad set of defenses and either multiple avenues of attack or ways of making sure your specialized attack routine actually gets past their various defenses.

If you know, for example, that your enemy caster is going to likely call in Solars (unlikely given that these guys were mostly evil) then make sure you have a protection from good handy. You can get one in potion form easily enough. Then the Solar is very limited in what it can do to you.

So many wrong things.

1) Gate is Binding, not Summoning. Protection/X don't do diddly. Not good.
2) Protection/X lasts minutes per level. Only 1 minute if you are chugging it from a potion. You need to know exactly what is being thrown at you, and you need to know when it is coming. Or you are blowing an entire round of combat as a group chugging a potion while the casters with the solar get a free round of debuffs and BFC out. Not good.
3)Protection/X doesn't work against anything other than natural attacks. Solar's don't have natural attacks. They have a big ass sword, and a big ass bow that can attack by itself and spam free Slaying Arrows. Oh yeah, and they are CL20 casters. Not good
3)If we want to talk about protection/X vs summoning in general, anything with SR gets a spell resistance check, thing that don't match the alignment don't care, and neutral things will never care. at level 12 casters have access to a number of outsiders. Some of them use weapons. Some of them are useful for their SLAs. Some of them are neutral (earth elementals are fairly popular). A lot of them have SR and will close to auto-beat a CL1 potion (so you better stock up on 500gp potions of protection/X). Protection/X doesn't look like a particularly reliable option. Plus if you fight a neutral caster their animal summons have an alignment of N(despite the template) and thus don't give a damn about your protection/X. Oh yeah, and if you attack the summon your protection against it goes away. Minor thing. Protection/X is a decent reactive option against some summons. It is way too unreliable to be a good defense against a dedicated summoner. Plus bound creatures don't care. Not good.
Quote:


Enemy is going to rely on Stoneskin? Adamantine. For archers it is common practice to have at least 10 arrows of each kind of major material actually just in case.

Why would a caster rely on 1 thing unless they already have a bunch of defensive magic items. By level 12, an arcane caster can rock Mirror Image, Stoneskin, Blur and a handful of AC increasing spells. Divine casters will rival martials with their AC. Druids beat just about everything other than maybe monks if they try. Plus a martial needs to get past all the battlefield control to get to the caster (assuming the caster isn't a Wildshape Druid that is happy to play rock em sock em as a Dire Tiger after dropping BFC on the other opponents). And they need to stay with the caster as the caster attempts to put space between them and hinder them with more BFC (even a simple move action denies AoOs on spells and full attacks). And they need to stay active as the caster hits them with crippling effects.

Don't think they are relying on stone skin. Think they are relying on something like Stone Skin, Mirror Image, Stinking Cloud, Shift School Power, Overland Flight and Suffocate. You have to beat all of these, or you lose. This isn't an unreasonable expectation either - generally only stinking Cloud and Suffocate will be using combat rounds, so by halfway through round 2 your archer is at least staggered if not nauseated and dying, and they got at most 2 shots off unless they have a goz mask(which both probably only popped images). Oh yeah, and be prepared to deal with the 40AC Pouncing Allosaurus that can drop Fog Clouds, Summons and Entangles too. Because casters can be prepped both for Archery Rangers and Falchion Fighters. Can martials be prepared for most casters? Because if they can't...Not Good.

Quote:


Enemy is likely going to scry? Make sure you have runes, or symbols, etc.

Enemy is likely going to teleport and you are defending a location for a significant amount of time? Permanent teleport traps into certain death situations.

Money. It is the great equalizer.

So your martials exist to feed their WBL to NPC casters who give them magic that can get the job done. They can't do it themselves, so they literally just cart around NPC made traps. A job that could be done by a level 1 commoner who wins the lottery and has the dangerously Curious trait plus a point in UMD. Or the NPC caster themselves. Meanwhile actual caster classes can produce those effects themselves, or do other things to accomplish the same task with no outside assistance beyond some of the big 6 and some utility magic items that are only there to provide a bit more durability and endurance. This is insane. It's like proving that a brand new model of iPhone is better than a new Android by selling the new iPhone and buying a cheap Android and an old second hand iPhone(this is just an example - I don't actually care which is better).

Quote:


In this case we have a bunch of martials who have minutes to put together a plan to stop a full caster group of adventurers. This is so much different if the martials had time to set up proper defenses to fortify a location against attacks.

But can they do it without relying on a caster to help them. Casters don't need a bunch of martials to come along and slap down fortifications or anything. They also don't need to put points in "Use Martial Device" to be a pale shadow of a martial. If they actually invest in it, they come out at least on par with martials (maybe slightly worse numbers, but better options that more than make up for it, because Bladed Dash laughs at Weapon Training). So, can martials actually manage to survive this challenge while relying primarily on their martial capabilities. Tossing half a dozen symbols at the attackers is relying primarily on an NPC spellcaster back in town. Which is...you guessed it...Not Good.


Assuming a Schrödinger's Gunslinger, who has an infinite number of one- and two-handed magical firearms, Quick Draw and any other feat you care to name, as well as any type of ammo, access to any spell that comes in potion form as well as +&TEXAS to UMD, what do?


Bandw2 wrote:

no because here's the thing, the only thing monks are really really good at is killing casters. especially if there are 6 of them.

any kind of created obstacle can be jumped over, they can run up and grapple you, the melee ones have a short range pounce. They pretty much will make all saves, windwall is a pillar so they can either enter it and shoot up or directly at the guy inside or move around it if it's a flat plane.

Monks have a reputation as being good at killing casters which is really undeserved. I am not sure how you jump over a wall of force that stretches floor to ceiling. You are facing a level 12 group with multiple people capable of casting freedom of movement. All of them will have it active as it lasts, at a minimum, 2 hours at this level. You may be a tetori in order to suppress fom, congratulations, every single one of the casters can cast liberating command. With a maxxed out escape artist, vest of escape, a masterwork tool and 14 dex they are rolling at +42. Even if not going that route many may well have SU means of teleporting out of a grapple or one of the others can almost certainly teleport them out.

As far as saves go, no, Monks don't make most saves. You have decent saves but you are far from Paladin or raging superstitious barbarians. Against save or suck you can expect to be facing DC's in the range of 28-30, if they bring a Kitsune enchantment specialist you are looking at DC33-35. You are also likely to have to be rolling twice and taking the worst roll.


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Everyone seems to think it is actually hard to do this. No, the problem is it is hard if you play the game normally- a cooperative game between you, the other players, and the GM. One where you take the threats seriously in character and try not to do too much weird and broken stuff that breaks immersion.

This scenario is not a cooperative game. This is a hypothetical scenario where you just have builds versus builds (you don't have to worry about party make up, or ther players' fun, or outshining them). You have full control over every martial build, and cart blanche TO CHEESE THIS TO HELL AND BACK.

As I suggested earlier- a dozen dirty tricks per rounds the cripple targets.

How about a stupid intimidation build based off of Disheartening display? Disheartening display is dazzling display...but the limits on how high you can amp up fear. 6 martials (12 with eldritch guardian)... that can VERY easily take you from shaken-> Frightened->Panicked->huddling in the corner crying for your mommy (yes, disheartening display actually has rules for that...minus my colorful commentary). This can literally shut down an opponent in a single round, allowing you to hack them up at your leisure.

Basically- you are facing a team of enemies specifically designed and minmaxed in order to warp the laws of the universe. So do the same- have martials that warp the laws of teh universe (read: game rules). There are plenty of options that are merely 'nice' for martials when you have 1-2 people use it...but they become broken when used by 6-12 people.

Play this like a bad videogame where you use stun locks and animation loops and frame advantage. It might seem lame and out of character...but would mundane character NOT do this stuff if they fully understood it? I mean...HAVE YOU SEEN WHAT WIZARDS DO?! Playing fair is for when you don't have a single side twisting the fabric of reality while you can't. Giving them time to say their peace is when they use a still spell to wipe you out when they can finally use verbal components again.


Bandw2 wrote:
no but seriously 6 monks would destroy a group of casters walking into their dungeon.

No. They would simply have more time to understand the magnitude of their error.

I posit rogues, slayers, rangers, and other stealth heavy options that would try to kill the casters as they slept.
Obviously they would have to abandon the dungeon. Maybe they could lure some monsters/animals in there to create enough of a challenge that the casters either decide to rest afterwards or say the location of their hide out as they teleport away.

-Coup de grace


For the martials:

Whetstone is 1cp and adds one point of damage on your first attack with slashing weapons...

Spend a significant portion of starting gold on battle-trained creatures...

That's all I've got. Everyone covered it nicely.


Casual Viking wrote:

Assuming a Schrödinger's Gunslinger, who has an infinite number of one- and two-handed magical firearms, Quick Draw and any other feat you care to name, as well as any type of ammo, access to any spell that comes in potion form as well as +&TEXAS to UMD, what do?

Stick him behind a wall of force then make it permanent. Wait for him to die of thirst. Sell his equipment to defray the 7500gp cost. Alternatively send wave after wave of earth elementals and shadows at him through the walls until he runs out of bullets.


Edit: The casters need to clear the room within 10 minutes, leaving no martial character alive. The martial characters need to survive for 10 minutes. Bonus points for TPKing the casters.

Sovereign Court

Snowblind wrote:

For those suggesting stealth...exactly how high are you getting it?

Lets see what I would expect for the druid's perception if I was building them.

+12 Ranks
+3 class skill
+4 ability score (16+2 wisdom)
+5 competence (Eyes of the eagle)
____
+24 total

An average roll will give a check of +34. Lets say the stealth party wants to stay undetected outside of 30ft, so they need to have a stealth check of at least 32 to beat the druid at the 35ft point.

...

What makes you think that the non-full casters are going to just stand in the room waiting for the casters? That was half the reason I gave them Rings of Blink - they can Blink through the walls. Or not throw smokesticks etc to give themselves massive circumstance bonuses?

As to how they stealth which everyone keeps mentioning? Blink ALWAYS gives concealment. ALWAYS. That means that with Blink up - they ALWAYS get to stealth.

Sure - it could potentially be dispelled... and then they spend a standard action to turn it back on.

And please - don't bring up summons/animate dead etc. I trump your summons with Bard/Glibness who convinces the full casters that they're all actually mortal enemies and should kill each other (arguably need Skill Unlock: Diplomacy to make them friendly first in a single round). Or Bard/Glibness who convinces a pack of solars to kill the casters. Or the local king.

Etc
Etc

This is a combat puzzle between the characters. Bard/Glibness trumps all other OOC ways to win - don't start that game.

Sovereign Court

andreww wrote:
As far as saves go, no, Monks don't make most saves. You have decent saves but you are far from Paladin or raging superstitious barbarians. Against save or suck you can expect to be facing DC's in the range of 28-30, if they bring a Kitsune enchantment specialist you are looking at DC33-35. You are also likely to have to be rolling twice and taking the worst roll.

It depends upon the monk. I like dwarf dex monks myself. At level 12 my monk would have all saves vs spells at approx. +23(fort) +25(will) +27(reflex). And that's unbuffed. Heroism for an extra +2 at least is pretty standard by 12.

And how are you getting DCs of 28-30 consistently at level 12? Even with Greater Spell Focus, the best I can come up with is DC 29 for 6th level spells. (outside of racial - gnomes could get illusion to 30, and kitsune get enchantment higher - but most monks have Still Mind)


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Rhedyn wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
no but seriously 6 monks would destroy a group of casters walking into their dungeon.

No. They would simply have more time to understand the magnitude of their error.

I posit rogues, slayers, rangers, and other stealth heavy options that would try to kill the casters as they slept.
Obviously they would have to abandon the dungeon. Maybe they could lure some monsters/animals in there to create enough of a challenge that the casters either decide to rest afterwards or say the location of their hide out as they teleport away.

-Coup de grace

nah if it's 6 monks, pretty much only 1-2 of them are peeps that can CC and deal with them if they do windwall, the unchained monks burst out of cover with flying kick flurry full round actions and murder the hell out of him, if he does some no save spell to one of the zenn archer the other ones flurry of bows him, basically they ignore everyone but the wizard and witch, when they're down, they go for the cleric, who probably is in a support role, so that will be nice. then you just clean up.

mind you if they just caver in the structure or have no reason to enter the dungeon then yes, this is going to end badly.

basically the strength of a monk is that they can pretty much ignore more AoE stuff and melee attacks against them, if everyone is a monk, you simply can't deal with them quick enough or on mass to deal with them.

like i said there's only 1 schrodinger's wizard, he's dead first to limit his action economy(he gets one spell), then witch, then necromancer(to unleash any minions to attack anything)/cleric(to stop any more buffs to their druid or undead or any other minions)

basically their plan is too eat any AoO and anything else required to completely destroy and focus down specific targets. because more than likely anything not on the caster's turn won;t be much of a threat to the monk, even with undead and summons.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

1 monk is dumb in a party, but a party of monks? they will pretty much just outlast any CR encounter.


For archers, don't forget the Cyclonic enchantment...

Sovereign Court

Bandw2 wrote:
1 monk is dumb in a party, but a party of monks? they will pretty much just outlast any CR encounter.

For crazy defenses, especially vs casters - make them all dwarf dex monks with Steel Soul. :P

And for outlasting - have one be a Drunken Master/Sensei - he can use booze ki for Barkskin/Wholeness of body etc on the whole party to save resources.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
1 monk is dumb in a party, but a party of monks? they will pretty much just outlast any CR encounter.
For crazy defenses, especially vs casters - make them all dwarf dex monks with Steel Soul. :P

dwarves too stronk


Charon's Little Helper wrote:


And please - don't bring up summons/animate dead etc. I trump your summons with Bard/Glibness who convinces the full casters that they're all actually mortal enemies and should kill each other (arguably need Skill Unlock: Diplomacy to make them friendly first in a single round). Or Bard/Glibness who convinces a pack of solars to kill the casters. Or the local king.

Etc
Etc

This is a combat puzzle between the characters. Bard/Glibness trumps all other OOC ways to win - don't start that game.

All of that is long roleplaying sessions with the GM, subject to his patience, the steep limitations of Bluff, the existence and availability of various NPCs, their agendas....

Summons are abilities on the f~!&ing character sheet. The Wizard doesn't have to ask his GM for a Glabrezu, he snaps his fingers and it's there. Binding and animating are slightly in the territory of roleplaying and campaigns, but not subject to existence, availability or the limits of social skills. Animating the dead only requires the byproduct of regular adventuring. And both of these activities can even be done as White Room/Closed Box power-ups with a modicum of effort.


Blinding Critical, Deafening Critical, Critical Mastery, Keen weapon (kukri, rapier, whatever your favorite 18+ now 15+ is).

Wait, they can't do that at level 12. Crap.

Wish they could, cause that stuff shuts casters down FAST.

If only the level requirements for fighter feats were, like, four to six levels lower... :D

Sovereign Court

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Casual Viking wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:


And please - don't bring up summons/animate dead etc. I trump your summons with Bard/Glibness who convinces the full casters that they're all actually mortal enemies and should kill each other (arguably need Skill Unlock: Diplomacy to make them friendly first in a single round). Or Bard/Glibness who convinces a pack of solars to kill the casters. Or the local king.

Etc
Etc

This is a combat puzzle between the characters. Bard/Glibness trumps all other OOC ways to win - don't start that game.

All of that is long roleplaying sessions with the GM, subject to his patience, the steep limitations of Bluff, the existence and availability of various NPCs, their agendas....

Summons are abilities on the f+$&ing character sheet. The Wizard doesn't have to ask his GM for a Glabrezu, he snaps his fingers and it's there. Binding and animating are slightly in the territory of roleplaying and campaigns, but not subject to existence, availability or the limits of social skills. Animating the dead only requires the byproduct of regular adventuring. And both of these activities can even be done as White Room/Closed Box power-ups with a modicum of effort.

I was mostly referring to binding/animating as opposed to Summon Monster spells - which are easy to beat with some potions of Protection from Evil - or backing off and waiting for them to fade away etc. And they're unlikely to have any up before the combat begins due to their low duration.

But Glibness/Bluff is also in a bard's "f+$&ing character sheet". By the rules - the bard can totally and utterly convince the casters that it's in their own best interest to murder each-other. It's not even very hard. Technically they can't even contradict him well, as there are no rules for convincing someone of a truth.

Frankly - a Bard built for Glibness (Jack up caster level to beat truth spells - and a bluff check even without it in the stratosphere) is probably the most OP thing in the game in the long term.


So I just found a spell that pretty much ends this.

Hungry Darkness causes no save con damage in a 60ft radius. Only spell resistance can stop it. Wall up all 3 entrances with wall of stone. Stone shape a 1ft by 1ft hole into the wall. Start casting as many as necessary castings of Hungry Darkness. It will last 12 rounds. For 24 points of con damage. If you don't have a con of at least 24, you're just dead. And the wizard/sorcerer can do this with relative impunity behind the stone wall.

Sure, there are counters to this, but it requires dispel or spell sunder. But this is only a single tactic, not the complete limits of the groups capabilities.


Claxon wrote:

So I just found a spell that pretty much ends this.

Hungry Darkness causes no save con damage in a 60ft radius. Only spell resistance can stop it. Wall up all 3 entrances with wall of stone. Stone shape a 1ft by 1ft hole into the wall. Start casting as many as necessary castings of Hungry Darkness. It will last 12 rounds. For 24 points of con damage. If you don't have a con of at least 24, you're just dead. And the wizard/sorcerer can do this with relative impunity behind the stone wall.

Sure, there are counters to this, but it requires dispel or spell sunder. But this is only a single tactic, not the complete limits of the groups capabilities.

If the martial group does not have a Spell Sunder Barbarian handy, they were already screwed.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

just stand about 30 feet to each side of the wall with the hole poked in...

it's a 1 foot tube into a dark room he can't see anything or really aim anywhere no on this line.

Sovereign Court

Claxon wrote:

So I just found a spell that pretty much ends this.

Hungry Darkness causes no save con damage in a 60ft radius. Only spell resistance can stop it. Wall up all 3 entrances with wall of stone. Stone shape a 1ft by 1ft hole into the wall. Start casting as many as necessary castings of Hungry Darkness. It will last 12 rounds. For 24 points of con damage. If you don't have a con of at least 24, you're just dead. And the wizard/sorcerer can do this with relative impunity behind the stone wall.

Sure, there are counters to this, but it requires dispel or spell sunder. But this is only a single tactic, not the complete limits of the groups capabilities.

1. In this scenario - the martials know that the casters are coming - not vica versa.

2. The Rings of Blinking I mentioned would let them escape it easily. Not a threat against the group I mentioned.

3. Even without said Rings of Blinking - it's not hard for level 12 martials to smash through stone walls in a couple rounds.

4. Aside from the Spell-Sundering Barbarian Serisan mentioned, 6 level casters are every bit as effective with Dispel Magic as 9 level casters.

5. Due to the close range - at level 12 the caster of Hungry Darkness would actually be in the spell's effect when cast. (55ft range - 60ft radius)

6. It's a 7th level. The casters are all level 12. They can't cast it.


I did legitimately get the character level for 7th level wrong in my head for some reason.

But I thought the scenario was casters "storming the castle". It's really not relevant if the martials no they're coming. The casters know where the martials are, the martials have to defend correct? Or did I misunderstand the scenario?

Ring Of Blinking doesn't really solve the problem. It has a 50% chance to shunt you to the nearest open space. I'm unsure of the exact design of the building we are discussing, but I had actually went to an underground facility for some reason. Despite that, I will give you that a wall of stone would not defend against ethereal. Of course, Wall of Force does and can also be cast, though it would be significantly harder to enclose the whole area in a wall of force if it were not an underground location to prevent their easier escape.

DO you recall this:

Quote:
Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.

So you're weapons aren't going to get your through the wall of stone, though the ring of blink will.

As for 6th level casters, are we counting them among martials as well now? I thought the set up was at best 4th level casters (paladin, ranger, bloddrager). If the martial team gets to have 6th level spell casters the fight gets evened up quite a bit. I assumed this was team all-magic versus team almost-no-magic.

Ultimately, Scrolls of Astral Projection, Scroll of Greater Demiplane with permanency prepared afterwards. Set the time trait to timeless. Use Astral Projection to assault the martials with virtually no risk to yourself. Use up all your spells to injure them however you require. Use plane shift to return to the timeless plane and regain your spells, since no time passes outside relative to the plane. Rinse and repeat. Now the casters could just blow everything on Enervation and Maximized Enervation. Maybe some contingency spells in place just to make extra sure the martial characters can't significantly harm you.

Sovereign Court

Claxon wrote:

I did legitimately get the character level for 7th level wrong in my head for some reason.

But I thought the scenario was casters "storming the castle". It's really not relevant if the martials no they're coming. The casters know where the martials are, the martials have to defend correct? Or did I misunderstand the scenario?

The initial scenario has the party with no 9 level casters knowing that the party of all 9 level casters was coming. No mention was made that the caster party knew that the martials were there, and the opposite was implied with the mention of the lead sheet etc.

The OP scenario has the casters themselves coming - not astral projections etc. (Plus - I again trump the OOC solution with Bard/Glibness.)

And yes - 6 level casters can be included.

Claxon wrote:
DO you recall this:
Quote:
Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.
So you're weapons aren't going to get your through the wall of stone, though the ring of blink will.

Your higher level martials don't all have adamantine hammer of some sort? It's actually one reason why earthbreaker it's my favorite THW if I'm not crit-fishing - plus it has the most HP. Even a barbarian with a normal non-magical warhammer would chew through a wall pretty darn quick. (1d8+20x3 per round [after hardness] without trying very hard)

I also think that a monk's fists would likely qualify - heck - real life martial artists break cinder blocks etc - a magical monk can do stone. With pummeling style it's rather easy. (Monks have accuracy issues - not damage issues.)

Claxon wrote:
Ring Of Blinking doesn't really solve the problem. It has a 50% chance to shunt you to the nearest open space.

Only if it's at least 5ft thick.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

still say 6 monks

I also say that a fist with ki striking able to ignore DR/magic will probably be able to damage a wall.


Serisan wrote:


If the martial group does not have a Spell Sunder Barbarian handy, they were already screwed.

Best martial build for anti-caster shenanigans. I have a lvl 12 PFS barb built off of the build that StrRanger, Trinam, , and I put together before Trinam published his guide. It is an absolute beast vs any kind of caster. One of the best features, besides being able to dispell with spell sunder, is the use of dazing assault. I found that most casters can't handle making multiple DC22 Fort saves. Somewhere on the boards is a 1000 post thread where we did a hypothetical duel between Trinam's 20th lvl bat flying barbarian (AM BARBARIAN) and a 20th lvl wizard. For the most part it was a tie. If the barb survived the first spell they had a very good chance of outright killing the wizard on their turn.


andreww wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
SURPRISE ROUND!

Your plan fails as you only get a single action during the surprise round barring a small number of limited abilities. So your surprise round is to burst out of hiding and yell "surprise". Then the casters beat all of your initiatives and you die horribly.

This also assumes they don't do anything as basic as send a tremor sensing earth elemental to scope out the room.

It also assumes neither the wizard nor the sorcerer can cast emergency force sphere. Either could easily have defensive strategist or if the wizard is a diviner you are screwed.

You can't use Emergency Force Sphere if you're flat-footed. A diviner is still flat-footed until his/her turn starts. So, yeah, first to go in initiative takes out the wizard.

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