"Good" Monstrous codex?


Product Discussion


I was wondering if there were any plans to do a leveled racial codex with the traditional PC races. I'm helping run an Evil Chelaxian campaign and I'm having a hard time getting the right npc statblocks.
There used to be halfling and gnome entries in monster manuals, but there don't seem to be any in the bestiary.
Anyway, I'd love to buy this product...an "NPC" codex based on race rather than class..with all the core and featured races leveled up as if they were monsters for the purpose of Evil campaigns.
You could also use it as an NPC codex #2 for good themed games.


The NPC Codex, Inner Sea NPC Codex, and NPC Guide all work well for this purpose. The alignments are fairly malleable in most cases.


The regular NPC codex from the prd is very lacking for my purposes. I'll check out the other books.
I'm looking for a book that would be useful if the PCs were attacking a Gnome or halfling village....that would have leveled versions of those creatures kitted out with racial feats like the entries in the monstrous codex. The outlay of the NPC guide is very different. It has entries by class with a seemingly random race chosen for a given level.


I have almost every NPC book and codex from Paizo and the various 3PP publishers. What you're looking for does not exist under those parameters. If you had Hero Lab you could easily build whatever you needed.


Larkspire wrote:
I'm looking for a book that would be useful if the PCs were attacking a Gnome or halfling village....that would have leveled versions of those creatures kitted out with racial feats like the entries in the monstrous codex. The outlay of the NPC guide is very different. It has entries by class with a seemingly random race chosen for a given level.

The NPC Codex presupposes that you're looking for NPCs based on Class, with Race as a secondary parameter.

The Monster Codex presupposes that you're looking for NPCs based on Race, with Class as a secondary parameter.

Having a book that has all combinations of Race x Class x Level would be monolithic, even if we're just going on the Core 7 races and 11 Classes: 1540 entries, to be exact.

To cover all 37 Core, Featured, and Uncommon Races, all 32 Pre-Occult Adventures Classes, and all 20 levels, that's 23,680 entries.

Add in all the possible combinations of Alignments, and it's bumped up to over 100,000 entries (I'm not doing the exact calculation because some allow all 9 while others only allow 5, 3, or even 1 alignment).

Add Mythic Tiers into there WITHOUT alignments, just for so, and that's 1,420,800 entries.

No - that's absolutely ridiculous; just use Hero Lab because asking Paizo to create a massive tome of over 1.5 MILLION entries of combinations of Race + Class + Alignment x Level is just unbelievable. A computer program is needed for that, and that's what Hero Lab is for.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Larkspire wrote:
I'm looking for a book that would be useful if the PCs were attacking a Gnome or halfling village....that would have leveled versions of those creatures kitted out with racial feats like the entries in the monstrous codex. The outlay of the NPC guide is very different. It has entries by class with a seemingly random race chosen for a given level.

The NPC Codex presupposes that you're looking for NPCs based on Class, with Race as a secondary parameter.

The Monster Codex presupposes that you're looking for NPCs based on Race, with Class as a secondary parameter.

Having a book that has all combinations of Race x Class x Level would be monolithic, even if we're just going on the Core 7 races and 11 Classes: 1540 entries, to be exact.

To cover all 37 Core, Featured, and Uncommon Races, all 32 Pre-Occult Adventures Classes, and all 20 levels, that's 23,680 entries.

Add in all the possible combinations of Alignments, and it's bumped up to over 100,000 entries (I'm not doing the exact calculation because some allow all 9 while others only allow 5, 3, or even 1 alignment).

Add Mythic Tiers into there WITHOUT alignments, just for so, and that's 1,420,800 entries.

No - that's absolutely ridiculous; just use Hero Lab because asking Paizo to create a massive tome of over 1.5 MILLION entries of combinations of Race + Class + Alignment x Level is just unbelievable. A computer program is needed for that, and that's what Hero Lab is for.

obviously there are limits to the scope of what one can put into a book. I'm just saying there is a niche for this type of product....all the races couldn't be done at once. There's no reason you couldn't have generic Gnome, halfling, Human, Elf and Dwarf entries specced out in a book the way we have sahaugin,Ogre,troll and Drow...Hell, Drow is even a featured race...so they didn't have any problem limiting their content to thematic choices in that respect...shouldn't prove too difficult.

You don't need all alignments to be represented...just the most common.
This sort of thing would be very useful if the PCs were helping to defend a Dwarven stronghold (for instance) because you'd have leveled dwarves on tap. Same thing for other racial settlements.
There is at least one other thread discussing what races we'd like to see in the next monstrous codex...i don't think that Dwarf or halfling is any sillier of a request to make than Wayang or Darkfolk.
I'd argue that a codex of common races would prove far more useful overall.


Asparagus Jumpsuit produced three PDFs based on NPCs classes with options for humans, elves and dwarves called Instant NPCs. They only cover NPC classes however. At such a low price point, I doubt there is an incentive to expand it to the less popular races such as gnomes or halflings.

Unfortunately, you're going to have to invest in Hero Lab to make what you want or just roll them up the old fashioned way for free.


Brother Fen wrote:

Asparagus Jumpsuit produced three PDFs based on NPCs classes with options for humans, elves and dwarves called Instant NPCs. They only cover NPC classes however. At such a low price point, I doubt there is an incentive to expand it to the less popular races such as gnomes or halflings.

Unfortunately, you're going to have to invest in Hero Lab to make what you want or just roll them up the old fashioned way for free.

instant NPCs looks good in premise...there not a single review there.

I know the product I'm requesting doesn't exist...that's why I'm requesting it.
I posted this here so that my plea would be heard by the "Paizo Gods" and to see if there was any support for this other than myself.
All responses negative thus far.
It occurred to me when i tried to look up a "halfling" in the bestiary...and it wasn't there...so I thought, "I'll use Gnome"...it also did not exist...it struck me as odd.
The old D&D MM had entries such as "elf", not every possible 1st level elf...just a generic garden variety martial elf.
Drow is there..., and that's ok...I guess. Aasimar is right up front..but I guess that neither of those races were playable at the time of publish.
EDIT: I use dead tree books for all my needs...PDFs are only used by me so that i can make sure a book is worth buying. just a personal preference...not intended to disparage PDFs in general.


I'm sorry, but what you're asking for is not going to be made any time soon. Time to start figuring out some alternatives.

I prefer hardbacks as well but in the case of most third party publishers, PDFs are the only options. Instant NPCs offers basic builds of the specified race in the four NPC classes of aristocrat, expert, warrior and commoner from levels 1-20 for each. There is no flavor or fluff - only pure stats. Not much to review. It is what it is.

Good luck finding what you need.


Larkspire, I don't know if I would call it a lost cause. People should petition for books they want, and I would probably rank such a book above a Monster Codex 2 in probability of being published.


MMCJawa wrote:
Larkspire, I don't know if I would call it a lost cause. People should petition for books they want, and I would probably rank such a book above a Monster Codex 2 in probability of being published.

Thanks for the positive response MMCJawa... I was beginning to think this was some sort of settled issue and that Brother fen was appointed the ideological goalie...here to tell me to forget about it and that it's not gonna happen.


:/

Sovereign Court

It may not be a lost cause, but unless you intend for the campaign you are running to continue on for at least three years, don;t count on anything to appear that fits that bill. It takes time to develop products and I believe Paizo maps out their product schedule for the larger books about three years out (though I could be mistaken).

Even then, the chances of it being on the radar of any publisher is not overly high, so Brother Fen's suggestion of DIY with Hero Lab is not something you should dismiss out of hand.


zylphryx wrote:

It may not be a lost cause, but unless you intend for the campaign you are running to continue on for at least three years, don;t count on anything to appear that fits that bill. It takes time to develop products and I believe Paizo maps out their product schedule for the larger books about three years out (though I could be mistaken).

Even then, the chances of it being on the radar of any publisher is not overly high, so Brother Fen's suggestion of DIY with Hero Lab is not something you should dismiss out of hand.

For sure...I didn't expect them to drop everything and start development on it right now :)

I just thought it'd be a good topic for conversation since it doesn't seem to exist.
Paizo's content is massive too...so I figured I'd put it out there.
I will be checking out hero lab for this purpose, but I still think it'd make a great book.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Brother Fen wrote:
Asparagus Jumpsuit produced three PDFs based on NPCs classes with options for humans, elves and dwarves called Instant NPCs. They only cover NPC classes however. At such a low price point, I doubt there is an incentive to expand it to the less popular races such as gnomes or halflings.

Also, they do seem to have some problems with rules accuracy. They seem to think that the Adept is an intelligence based caster class, for example.


...I suppose we could always make it a community project of some kind. Take a class and alignment, use Hero Lab to level 'em up from 1 to 20, picking equipment for WBL... with a good team, you could probably get a lot of variable-level NPCs out in short order.


I just checked out hero lab...seems like a money pit. I have most of the books, and you have to buy content bundles to get it all...adds up pretty quick.
I'll just be doing it manually (as ever) for the time being.
I don't envision it being an encyclopedic endeavor. having all races at all levels and classes or anything.
Just given the monstrous codex treatment,
a couple of 1st or 2nd level base creatures, a few 3rd thru 6th level lieutenants, a couple of 7-10th level commanders, and a high level leader or two (12-14 entries tops). With a brief strategy section.
All themed with similar alignments and all making use of special racial feats and abilities...lots of humans with inexplicable luck and fast learning. Ghost shrouded gnome pranksters and illusion wielders ,jinxy halflings and the puppy power attack force of Order of the Paw Cavaliers, and Dwarves with hard heads and cloven Helms kitted out as Foehammers and forgemasters etc..
The PC races are fun and flavorful and would really benefit from such treatment.


The concept of the book seems great on paper, until you really think about it. What you are really asking for is a concise book of NPCs that are what you have in mind at any given time. To illustrate the point, how about a book with devout zealot humans who all worship a LG God? And some serious gnome inventors who are rather dour but talented with brass goggles. And, why not? Some "Hobbits" (halflings), who are all farmers and naive. And let's throw in the drunk, gun wielding, crazys who live "under the mountain". Just as fun and flavorful, but perhaps not what you're looking for (Tolkien-land with guns and steampunk gnomes).

And that's the problem. Beyond picking a single stereotype for each race (elven woodland archers, greedy dwarf miners, etc.), you run into the problem of which stereotype to pick. The most useful answer would "pick all" which makes more combinations than stars in the sky. I like the fact that Paizo hasn't pushed a cannon stereotype for each race, as previous editions have done.

I'm going to echo Brother Fen's advice of trying to make what's out there work, or get HeroLab (or something similar), or do it the old fashioned way. While it doesn't hurt to ask, I wouldn't hold out for a book that may never come.

Sovereign Court

You know, I had been a strong nay sayer re: HeroLab for ages. There were issues with bad data in the past and folks would use it without double checking the settings they were using. BUT, over the last two years I have come to appreciate it greatly. I don't use it to run my PCs off of (save for one), but I do use it to stat out NPCs and encounters for home games. Saves me a LOT of time on that front. Is it expensive? Yeah, it can be. But you also have to look at how valuable your time is. Would you prefer to hash out all your NPCs by hand or have extra time to do additional adventure design for your players? At this point, I figure it has saved me enough time to have covered it's cost.


I watched the tutorial...it looked useful, I'm just not planning to drop 100 bucks on it..since I buy books it's like paying twice. Once for the book...then another fee to add it to a program I already bought.
The fact that hero lab exists is not an argument against the book...you could say the same thing about the original NPC codex (all of them really)..couldn't they be replaced by Hero lab?
Same difference.

Why is it ok to stereotype the other races and not the PC races.
You realize, Drow elves are a playable race....they are in the monstrous codex...and the world didn't break...I didn't see any threads railing about the stereotyping of the poor unfortunate drow.
It seems like this idea is "distasteful" to those who have responded...
I'm looking for generic, stereotypical, racial listings...that (to me) seem as if they should have been par for the course.
There ARE stereotypes in pathfinder...usually their represented by racial feats, and archetypes.

Humans are stereo-typically Neutral...so all LG would be silly..a mix of neutral alignments would work.Humans could be their own book...with listings for each ethnicity.

Dwarfs should be as "Dwarfy" as possible...mostly LN,or LG.
Anyway, the goal of posting this thread in the first place was to see if I could spark a discussion about what races and how they should be depicted...if a book such as this were to be made.
Paizo has written whole books about single races...so it didn't seem like much of a stretch...
But don't worry, I have been suitably discouraged.
It's like there's a break down in communication...where the thing I'm requesting is actually really simple but everyone seems to think it would be some major undertaking.
IMHO the format of the Monstrous codex is "Hands-down" better than the format of the NPC codex.
I'd like to see another monstrous codex..with the "regular" races in it. That's all...it should be no more difficult to make than the monstrous codex was. Probably easier really.
If you think I should get Hero lab- ok...advise noted. No need to keep repeating it...it does no good.
If you think such a book is never gonna happen..that's great too. Anything positive to add?
Advising me to use what's out there does no good...that's what I'm doing already.
In my original example...looking for base halfling stats for a Chelaxian slave guard. I had to look them up on the d20pfsrd, copy paste and amend the stats a little. No big deal...it's what I usually do when making npcs or monsters..but I don't normally have any trouble finding base stats. IMHO all the races should be in the bestiaries.
Not everyone is a stereotype...but there ARE stereotypes of every group.
Stereotyping some intelligent humanoids, while maintaining that other groups of intelligent humanoids are all special snowflakes that should never be stereotyped..is...literally..Racist.
Obviously with some groups you need to pick a flavor and just go with it. You can always do a different variety later if you want.

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