Ageless Master |
Alright I want to build a monk, and looking back through old books I came across the Shiba Protector from Oriental Adventures. The first level adds Wis to Hit and Dmg, not replacing Str but in addition to Str for hit and damage. However it comes at a heavy cost of 3 feat tax and can only be done at level 6 (+5 BAB) and that is if using the Unchained Monk (7 if using CRB Monk).
The feat taxes are Alertness, Combat Expertise, and Iron Will
Needs 4 in Religion but that is easy at level 5.
Now I am curious if it is worth taking that much of an investment for Wis to Attack and Damage on a monk in addition to Str score.
Secret Wizard |
1. A "feat tax" is an otherwise useless or very limited feat that you need to take to fulfill your build. Alertness, which boosts the best skill in the game, Combat Reflexes and Iron Will, which are both sweet as hell and a must for many martials, are NOT feat taxes. Those are a feat chain.
2. WIS to attack and damage for a Monk amounts to at least +3 attack and damage. Do the math. (Pro-tip: Compare it with taking Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization all bunched together onto the same feat. Then consider it scales with level.)
3. Shit's OP son. My Sensei Monk used WIS to attack (and had no modifiers to damage due to 10 STR), and he was an amazingly great character in defensive, offensive and utility terms. Something like that in Pathfinder is broke.
Mysterious Stranger |
Iron will is never a useless feat. Keep in mind that the unchained monk now has a poor will save. While a monk will have a high enough WIS to offset some of this, it is still a poor save. The original monk could pretty much ignore any spell that allowed a will save. The unchained monk now has a will save about the same as a wizard.
Personally I would never allow this in a campaign I am running. Getting two Stats that add to both hit and damage is way too powerful. Even using WIS in place of STR is probably too much.
Secret Wizard |
It makes you insanely efficient. One stat provides all you need for damage, accuracy, AC, CMD, CMB, Will saves and ability DCs. Plus it stacks with STR and DEX for many of those counts. It'd make every other Monk stupid to play, and it would probably remove every reason to play another type of martial class.
Secret Wizard |
Downsides are the normal monk downsides though, no special material or damage types without applying style feats to get those damage types applies to unarmed strikes.
1. Ki Strike. All monks have it.
2. DR gets obliterated by Pummeling Style.
3. Dragon Ferocity users can recur to Weapon Versatility if worse come to worse.
4. Everyone can get a +3 Amulet of Mighty Fists and kek.
Charon's Little Helper |
Even at the cost of 3 feats, getting Wis to hit/damage IN ADDITION to STR is stupidly OP. Not only will you get +4 or so to both at lower levels, at high levels it could easily be +12 to hit/damage. (With that ability - Wis would obviously become your prime stat.)
That's crazy OP and no GM worth their salt would let you get it.
Mysterious Stranger |
I agree with Secret Wizard the unchained monk fixed all the problems with monks. Adding this on top of it gets insane. Having a 26 or higher stats is not that hard at high levels this would allow you to have +16 to hit and damage on all your attacks. As a monk you are already getting more attacks than any other martial class this puts it over the top.
Secret Wizard |
It's the same as 'lol', basically. It's the sound of a Korean guy laughing as he rolls through your base during a Starcraft match.
Anyway, just sharing my thoughts with you because Unchained Monk have been very successful on my tables. Some people will not shut up about the low Will save, but it's never been a problem in my games.
I do have to say i'm dumbfounded by the lack of Heal as a class skill...
Ageless Master |
Alright guys keep your britches on. It was just an idea. I am not saying I will use it but it was an idea.
I really want to play a monk but I am kind of worried about being very ineffective because well Monkday is a thing on some forums where people try to reinvent the monk each monday to try and be mildly effective. (Prior to Unchained)
Secret Wizard |
There's several great builds for the Unchained Monk. Here's the one I used:
Race: Human
Traits: Honored Fist of the Society, Indomitable Faith
Starting Scores: STR 18 (includes racial +2) / DEX 14 / CON 12 / INT 10 / WIS 15 / CHA 7
Planned Pips: +1 WIS at 4th level, rest to STR.
Feat/Ki Power/Style Strike Progression
1st level. Crane Style + Toughness + Dodge
2nd level. Combat Reflexes
3rd level. Power Attack
4th level. KP: Qinggong Power [Barkskin]
5th level. Crane Wing + Style Strike [Flying Kick]
6th level. Mobility + KP: Ki Metabolism
7th level. Weapon Focus
8th level. KP: Abundant Step
9th level. Crane Riposte
10th level. Improved Critical + KP: Qinggong Power [Ki Leech] + Style Strike [Foot Stomp]
11th level. Dimensional Agility
12th level. KP: Diamond Soul
13th level. Dimensional Assault
14th level. KP: One Touch
15th level. Dimensional Dervish + Style Strike [Spinning Kick]Use a Sansetsukuon wielded in two hands (I used a Temple Sword for flavor reasons). You suffer very little from having to combine unarmed strikes with weapon hits for the style strikes... after all, you'll mostly use Flying Kick to reposition yourself, and you only do that once every few full-attacks. Abundant Step can be used if you don't want to jeopardize damage/accuracy in some corner cases.
That being said, a Blade of the Sword Saint can be used instead of style strikes and is the best weapon bar-none for Monks.You regularly have enough AC to be untouchable (literally, I ran the numbers, some enemies with CR +2 higher than you can only hit you with crits), and you combine that with: 1. great fort saves, 2. great reflex saves AND evasion. 3. great will saves, 4. Ki Metabolism, so you can hold your breath for... 14 hours. With a Belt of Physical Perfection, that's 16 hours.
He also deals REALLY good damage. Barbarian levels of damage.
You can switch some stuff around, you don't NEED Weapon Focus/Toughness too much. Feel free to pick up flavor stuff instead.
The Dragon Style build is also really good, focusing on unarmed strikes rather than temple sword 2H damage (Unchained Monk adds 1.5x STR when flurrying with a weapon you two-hand).
Vanilla Monk has some good builds too. Mainly Mantis Style Sensei, lol Zen Archer and Falcata Sohei.
lemeres |
I always preferred sohei to unchained.
It gets plenty of bonuses to damage with weapon training, and it opens up options for items which further your damage (gloves of dueling, brawling armor). It can about match the unchained monk in standard action attacks, and gets a lot of extra attack/damage which can surpass the unchained monk when flurrying.
And with pummeling charge, the number of standard action attacks drop by a lot.
The access to light armor doesn't necessarily make you AC better...but it simplifies it and makes it better at low levels. Unarmored monks get better AC...after you start factoring in boosting items which can work on two stats for AC, as well as the scaling bonus+the armbands for the enhancement bonus. Before you get magic items, sohei can have better AC with non-turtled stats, which mean you can more comfortably have a build suited for melee.
BadBird |
A Monk with one level of Sarenrae Crusader Cleric in the right place can use Flurry of Blows with a Dervish Dance scimitar. Attack and damage from dexterity crossed with the ability to add uncapped dexterity AC to wisdom AC is very, very nice.
Since the scimitar has become a 'Monk' weapon, Sohei can add Weapon Training to it and allow the use of Gloves of Dueling, so that you're eventually getting a +3/+3 bonus with it as well.
As an odd added bonus, the Divine Favor castings you get can be made into +2/+2 with the Fate's Favored trait.
lemeres |
A Monk with one level of Sarenrae Crusader Cleric in the right place can use Flurry of Blows with a Dervish Dance scimitar. Attack and damage from dexterity crossed with the ability to add uncapped dexterity AC to wisdom AC is very, very nice.
Since the scimitar has become a 'Monk' weapon, Sohei can add Weapon Training to it and allow the use of Gloves of Dueling, so that you're eventually getting a +3/+3 bonus with it as well.
As an odd added bonus, the Divine Favor castings you get can be made into +2/+2 with the Fate's Favored trait.
Sounds fairly convoluted...and I am pretty sure it doesn't actually work- monk weapon seems to refer to the monk weapon property, not the monk weapon group- there are weapons in the group you can't flurry with because they lack the property (jutte, tiger fork, and tri-pointed double edged sword, from an immediate search). So you probably won't get the weapon training with it.
And even if it did work that way, I think I'll still just take strength and a nodachi for tons and tons more damage (x1.5 power attack, same for strength during standard action attacks, d10 hit dice, maybe the impact property/lead blades to make the damage dice even better since it is a bit on the 'bastard sword' scale). Less work, greater damage, and I know it works.
And since this is a weapon build, I can just make up some of the difference in AC by just getting a mithral breastplate (which works for a lot of classes light rangers and slayers), since that counts as light armor for this stuff.
That is because just about any class can pick up a mithral breast plates just by taking the armor expert trait (reduces armor check penalty by 1; with mithral the ACP becomes 0, which means 0 penalties for not being proficient in medium armor).
The only reason a sohei wouldn't prefer a mithral breastplate is if they are unarmed, which means brawling armor (which I am...fairly sure can't go on mithral medium; it is shaky enough that I'd chalk it up to "table variation" and wouldn't rely on it myself, or advise others to rely on it).
Overall...if I wanted turtled stats and weakened damage, I would go with regular monk (or unchained).
EDIT: Also, divine favor is not quite as nice as it seems- while the damage is ok, the attack bonus is hampered by the fact that you are dipping into a 3/4 BAB class. That means that you only net a +1...and most of the time, you would net a -1 when you don't have the spell up. The spell works for clerics since they get enough spells to spam a level 1 spell, and the bonuses scale to the point that you are getting a huge buff. Not really worth too much as a dip, especially since you have to spend a standard action at the start of the fight for something minor in comparison (full clerics can eventually use quickened spell to remove that problem too). The extra damage is nice, but not worth the trade of -1 most of the time for +1 some of the time with a noticable action cost attached. I only accept this kind of trade from an archaeologist bard dip, since it also adds to saves/skills, it is a swift action from the get go, and a bit of investment means you can use it for almost every fight despite it being a dip.
BadBird |
Nodachi advocacy
Strength-based nodachi is a great build as well.
Crusader Cleric grants free Weapon Focus, which kind of makes up for the lost BAB.
Whether the scimitar becomes a Monk weapon is a GM call really; taken at face value, "as if it were a Monk weapon" means exactly that for Weapon Training purposes just as much as it means 'weapon with the Monk property'. Weapon Training being ruled out is a major downer, and a reason to consider an alternative like Monk of the Four Winds to eventually smoke stuff with Shaitan Style/Skin. Or Crusader1/ Unchained...
While being able to wear a mithril breastplate is nice, Wisdom can fairly easily become better as the Monk AC bonus scales. If you go Dual Talent and start with a 16WIS (more ki is always great anyhow), then by level 8 buying a +2WIS headband instead of a mithril breastplate ends up with the same AC. Unlike the breastplate, the wisdom AC will continue to increase with items and level, and you're adding the bonus to your CMD.
lemeres |
lemeres wrote:Nodachi advocacyStrength-based nodachi is a great build as well.
Crusader Cleric grants free Weapon Focus, which kind of makes up for the lost BAB.
Whether the scimitar becomes a Monk weapon is a GM call really; taken at face value, "as if it were a Monk weapon" means exactly that for Weapon Training purposes just as much as it means 'weapon with the Monk property'. Weapon Training being ruled out is a major downer, and a reason to consider an alternative like Monk of the Four Winds to eventually smoke stuff with Shaitan Style/Skin. Or Crusader1/ Unchained...
While being able to wear a mithril breastplate is nice, Wisdom can fairly easily become better as the Monk AC bonus scales. If you go Dual Talent and start with a 16WIS (more ki is always great anyhow), then by level 8 buying a +2WIS headband instead of a mithril breastplate ends up with the same AC. Unlike the breastplate, the wisdom AC will continue to increase with items and level, and you're adding the bonus to your CMD.
Still, if I was to reverse the logic of that argument, it would mean that absolutely no one other than the sohei can use crusader's flurry to make a weapon flurriable.
I can understand arguing that the feat makes it part of the monk weapon group...but arguing that it covers both the weapon group and the special weapon quality at the same time, two extremely different unrelated related mechanics (again, all the nonflurriable monk group weapons), without the feat ever making direct mention that it includes multiple meanings at the same time... yeah...that is a MAJOR stretch.
As such, it would mean that crusader's flurry simply puts the weapon into the weapon group, allowing the sohei to flurry with it when he gets the group.
Charon's Little Helper |
Yeah - I'd argue that with Crusader's Flurry you can flurry with the scimitar - but it doesn't join the 'monk' weapon group. Still not a horrible build - though I'd probably just go with an Agile AoMF and use the Allying cestus for enchantment as opposed to dipping. (good feat combo for Sacred Fists though)
As to Sohei with a mithril breastplate - they're not bad, but their AC is kinda mediocre for a martial, only becoming middle of the road if you jack your dex up to 18 or 20, and even then pretty standard for a THW martial.
A dex monk without armor will have better AC as soon as they can get Mage Armor consistently. (1st item should be a wand of it) Though admittedly, a dex monk's damage is crap until they can get Agile or some dex-to-damage feat combo going. In PFS it'd be around 4ish (I GM'd/AP'd my PFS monk up to 4 for just that reason) though in a home game it could be faster if your buddies help you. (they get you the Agile by 2 - and you pay them back over the next level or two)
Much depends upon the group you're in as well. If a group with glass cannon characters, the extra damage is more needed or the glass cannons will die horribly if the bad guys aren't killed quickly enough. In a more defensive group (seemingly more uncommon - and one glass cannon destroys the dynamic - though what my home group does, and more potent overall) the dex monk is very valuable. His extra survivability making the reduced damage worth it.
Frankly - in a duel the dex monk would win 9 times out of 10 at level 4+, but Pathfinder isn't a 1v1 game, so make sure you fit the party.
Lemmy |
Play a regular Unchained Monk then. Fixed and balanced.
Arguably. It's better than the Core Monk, of course, but it's not exactly a great class...
And I'd consider Alertness a rather boring feat tax. Iron Will too.
- - -
That said... I think Wis to attack and damage is a bit much, but Wis to damage should be fine. Grab Weapon Finesse and use Dex to attack, then a second feat for Wis to damage.
That should work fine.
Secret Wizard |
Secret Wizard wrote:Play a regular Unchained Monk then. Fixed and balanced.Arguably. It's better than the Core Monk, of course, but it's not exactly a great class...
It's not arguable. It was arguable at some point.
I've made builds, ran the numbers. It's a perfectly good class. Power level hovers very close to Barbarian, closer to Paladin.
BadBird |
That said... I think Wis to attack and damage is a bit much, but Wis to damage should be fine. Grab Weapon Finesse and use Dex to attack, then a second feat for Wis to damage.
I would have loved to see a style feat that added some wis to damage. Don't know why with the billion styles they came up with that never occurred to anyone.
Arachnofiend |
Lemmy wrote:Secret Wizard wrote:Play a regular Unchained Monk then. Fixed and balanced.Arguably. It's better than the Core Monk, of course, but it's not exactly a great class...
It's not arguable. It was arguable at some point.
I've made builds, ran the numbers. It's a perfectly good class. Power level hovers very close to Barbarian, closer to Paladin.
Guessing you were talking about DPR numbers? Because the Unchained Monk certainly does not have the survivability and utility that a Barbarian or Paladin brings to the table.
Secret Wizard |
Guessing you were talking about DPR numbers? Because the Unchained Monk certainly does not have the survivability and utility that a Barbarian or Paladin brings to the table.Secret Wizard wrote:Lemmy wrote:Secret Wizard wrote:Play a regular Unchained Monk then. Fixed and balanced.Arguably. It's better than the Core Monk, of course, but it's not exactly a great class...It's not arguable. It was arguable at some point.
I've made builds, ran the numbers. It's a perfectly good class. Power level hovers very close to Barbarian, closer to Paladin.
Nope. It's equal in DPR and survivability. Each has a niche, but the Unchained Monk can have the numbers too.
Malagaar DeBrowen |
There's several great builds for the Unchained Monk. Here's the one I used:
Quote:...Race: Human
Traits: Honored Fist of the Society, Indomitable Faith
Starting Scores: STR 18 (includes racial +2) / DEX 14 / CON 12 / INT 10 / WIS 15 / CHA 7
Planned Pips: +1 WIS at 4th level, rest to STR.
Feat/Ki Power/Style Strike Progression
1st level. Crane Style + Toughness + Dodge
2nd level. Combat Reflexes
3rd level. Power Attack
4th level. KP: Qinggong Power [Barkskin]
5th level. Crane Wing + Style Strike [Flying Kick]
6th level. Mobility + KP: Ki Metabolism
7th level. Weapon Focus
8th level. KP: Abundant Step
9th level. Crane Riposte
10th level. Improved Critical + KP: Qinggong Power [Ki Leech] + Style Strike [Foot Stomp]
11th level. Dimensional Agility
12th level. KP: Diamond Soul
13th level. Dimensional Assault
14th level. KP: One Touch
15th level. Dimensional Dervish + Style Strike [Spinning Kick]Use a Sansetsukuon wielded in two hands (I used a Temple Sword for flavor reasons). You suffer very little from having to combine unarmed strikes with weapon hits for the style strikes... after all, you'll mostly use Flying Kick to reposition yourself, and you only do that once every few full-attacks. Abundant Step can be used if you don't want to jeopardize damage/accuracy in some corner cases.
That being said, a Blade of the Sword Saint can be used instead of style strikes and is the best weapon bar-none for Monks.You regularly have enough AC to be untouchable (literally, I ran the numbers, some enemies with CR +2 higher than you can only hit you with crits), and you combine that with: 1. great fort saves, 2. great reflex saves AND evasion. 3. great will saves, 4. Ki Metabolism, so you can hold your breath for... 14 hours. With a Belt of Physical Perfection, that's 16 hours.
He also deals REALLY good damage. Barbarian levels of damage.
You can switch some stuff around, you don't NEED Weapon Focus/Toughness too much. Feel free to pick up
@Secret Wizard, with this build, why the temple Sword? Is it just for the extra 1/2 again damage for strength and power attack?
Is it totally weakened without the Sword? I'm trying to focus on a pure Unarmed Monk as once we get into higher levels the increased Unarmed damage seems to good. But maybe I'm missing something?
Secret Wizard |
If you don't deal damage, people don't wanna hit you.
If you wanna go unarmed, Dragon Style is better. You miss out on about +5 AC, which basically gives enemies a 75% chance to hit you, which is fine because you'll likely beat them to a pulp.
A defensive build without a 2H weapon works but has a much worse output (not just due to 1.5x STR, but because of 19-20 crit range).
But then again, you can make a passable build with less damage. Use Style Strikes to compensate.
Lemmy |
Lemmy wrote:Secret Wizard wrote:Play a regular Unchained Monk then. Fixed and balanced.Arguably. It's better than the Core Monk, of course, but it's not exactly a great class...It's not arguable. It was arguable at some point.
I've made builds, ran the numbers. It's a perfectly good class. Power level hovers very close to Barbarian, closer to Paladin.
Everyone who says the Fighter is a great class says exactly the same about that class... So forgive me if I remain unconvinced.
I admit UC Monk is a decent beatstick... Not much more than that, though.
Gohaken |
That is the thing I know it is powerful but I have to say Monks have a very few options for bettering themselves.
Ehhh, not so brother, monks have a very large and increasing number of options.
I'm more a fan of old archetypes than unchained, but either way there's a lot of feats, traits, and gear that monks can use to great effect. Their MADness can be made into an advantage, and their seemingly disconnected/disparate abilities actually provide some unusual opportunities relative to the other martial classes.
for example -- another pathway to get Wisdom to hit is Guided Hand the feat. It requires Channel Smite, which requires the ability to channel.
Dipping Cleric 1 of Pharasma allows you to channel Negative, then you take Channel Smite and Guided Hand, and Domain Strike for your Repose domain.
Hey look at that! You can now auto-stagger an enemy 1/round as part of your Unarmed attack routine, and you have a high enough Wisdom to make use of that ability. And you can add negative energy to your attacks with good ol' channel smite, plus you get your Wisdom to attack.
Pretty Groovy for almost any monk.
Secret Wizard |
Secret Wizard wrote:Lemmy wrote:Secret Wizard wrote:Play a regular Unchained Monk then. Fixed and balanced.Arguably. It's better than the Core Monk, of course, but it's not exactly a great class...It's not arguable. It was arguable at some point.
I've made builds, ran the numbers. It's a perfectly good class. Power level hovers very close to Barbarian, closer to Paladin.
Everyone who says the Fighter is a great class says exactly the same about that class... So forgive me if I remain unconvinced.
I admit UC Monk is a decent beatstick... Not much more than that, though.
Want numbers or do you just want to complain?
Honestly, to me, the people who complain about the UC Monk are the same people who whine about Precise Strike being removed for Magi or claim that Divine Protection is perfectly fine. They are the people who tack Fate's Favored onto every build. They miss the fact that there's some supposed balance.
Arachnofiend |
Lemmy wrote:Secret Wizard wrote:Lemmy wrote:Secret Wizard wrote:Play a regular Unchained Monk then. Fixed and balanced.Arguably. It's better than the Core Monk, of course, but it's not exactly a great class...It's not arguable. It was arguable at some point.
I've made builds, ran the numbers. It's a perfectly good class. Power level hovers very close to Barbarian, closer to Paladin.
Everyone who says the Fighter is a great class says exactly the same about that class... So forgive me if I remain unconvinced.
I admit UC Monk is a decent beatstick... Not much more than that, though.
Want numbers or do you just want to complain?
Honestly, to me, the people who complain about the UC Monk are the same people who whine about Precise Strike being removed for Magi or claim that Divine Protection is perfectly fine. They are the people who tack Fate's Favored onto every build. They miss the fact that there's some supposed balance.
I belong to the first category but don't belong to the second. The Unchained Monk does great damage but doesn't do much of anything else. Barbarian/Paladin/Bloodrager bring a lot more to the table as a full BAB martial.
Arachnofiend |
Where does the Unchained Monk match Spell Sunder, or Terrifying Howl, or Savage Dirty Trick, or any of the other number of great utility powers the Barbarian gets?
For the Paladin, Monk gets an ability comparable to Lay On Hands except... Not as good. It has worse action economy and can't be used to heal anything other than HP. Also, the Paladin gets spells, and can cherry pick the best stuff from the best buffing lists with Unsanctioned Knowledge. And of course there's the fact that the Paladin is immune to most saves that matter, while also providing greater resistance to those same saves to the rest of his party.
Bloodrager "just" has spells in terms of utility, unless you assume the Bloodrager is Arcane, in which case you bring your own Haste and Blur (Or Spider Climb, since rage rounds come at a surplus so you can just use them to get up a wall). Bloodragers can also benefit from Riving Strike. Spellcasters tend to like it when everything you hit is 10% more likely to fail the save.
Secret Wizard |
Where does the Unchained Monk match Spell Sunder, or Terrifying Howl, or Savage Dirty Trick, or any of the other number of great utility powers the Barbarian gets?
For the Paladin, Monk gets an ability comparable to Lay On Hands except... Not as good. It has worse action economy and can't be used to heal anything other than HP. Also, the Paladin gets spells, and can cherry pick the best stuff from the best buffing lists with Unsanctioned Knowledge. And of course there's the fact that the Paladin is immune to most saves that matter, while also providing greater resistance to those same saves to the rest of his party.
Bloodrager "just" has spells in terms of utility, unless you assume the Bloodrager is Arcane, in which case you bring your own Haste and Blur (Or Spider Climb, since rage rounds come at a surplus so you can just use them to get up a wall). Bloodragers can also benefit from Riving Strike. Spellcasters tend to like it when everything you hit is 10% more likely to fail the save.
1. Monk has massive movement speed, massive acrobatics and abundant step. None of the classes you mentioned have that kind of mobility. If you don't think it matters, then I guess your GM tosses around a lot of dragons in a square room at your party. The Barb can charge (straight line, blocked by stuff), the Pally can fly (with a massive ACP penalty due to heavy armor) and the Bloodrager can cast spells to make up for it (spells that he doesn't have that many of). But none of them can match the Monk in that aspect.
2. The monk has prereq-free maneuver feats, easy access to the maneuver combat styles, is the crown lord of tripping and grappling AND has style strikes to add free combat maneuvers to his full-attacks. Unless very specialized, none of the other classes can provide this.
3. All the classes you mentioned get destroyed by rays and touch attacks. The Monk lulz at those. Not to mention that the Barb is going to be whittled by fireballs, while the Monk barely notices them. The Monk has the possibility to get high ass AC, much higher than a Barbarian or a Paladin, at the cost of less potential DR. This creates a special niche for them, however. Furthermore, the Monk's saves hover around the same level as the rest of the classes you mentioned, except the Monk has MUCH higher Reflex saves than everyone, lower Fort than the rest (but immunity to diseases and access to easy-cast Restoration), and higher Will than the Barb/Rager.
4. I can go on and talk about higher damage outputs, survivability while unarmored and unarmed (in case of capture or whatever), plus great SR and a great class skill list, but I think most people here just like complaining.
Arachnofiend |
1. Monk movement speed means nothing because any team composition worth talking about has someone who can cast Haste in every fight. Which could be the Bloodrager or the Paladin, of course. The Barbarian is entirely capable of flying (Elemental Blood can be stacked with Beast Totem), and flying is much more useful than a walk speed that's canceled out by one of the most commonly used buff spells in the game. You have a point on Abundant Step, but that is a singular point.
2. No, see, now you're confusing the Unchained Monk with the old Monk. The Underfoot Adept and Tetori were the crown lords of tripping and grappling; the Unchained Monk doesn't have any meaningful advantages over a Strength Surge Barbarian in the CMB department.
3. The touch attacks that mean anything allow saves, which the Barbarian and Paladin are certainly going to have zero issues making. This is admittedly a weakness of the Bloodrager, which is part of the reason why I sneer a bit when people say it entirely replaces the Barbarian. Also... you got the memo that Unchained Monks have a bad will save, right?
4. Nothing to talk about here other than the fact that SR is practically the definition of a trap option.
Secret Wizard |
1. Monk movement speed means nothing because any team composition worth talking about has someone who can cast Haste in every fight. Which could be the Bloodrager or the Paladin, of course. The Barbarian is entirely capable of flying (Elemental Blood can be stacked with Beast Totem), and flying is much more useful than a walk speed that's canceled out by one of the most commonly used buff spells in the game. You have a point on Abundant Step, but that is a singular point.
2. No, see, now you're confusing the Unchained Monk with the old Monk. The Underfoot Adept and Tetori were the crown lords of tripping and grappling; the Unchained Monk doesn't have any meaningful advantages over a Strength Surge Barbarian in the CMB department.
3. The touch attacks that mean anything allow saves, which the Barbarian and Paladin are certainly going to have zero issues making. This is admittedly a weakness of the Bloodrager, which is part of the reason why I sneer a bit when people say it entirely replaces the Barbarian. Also... you got the memo that Unchained Monks have a bad will save, right?
4. Nothing to talk about here other than the fact that SR is practically the definition of a trap option.
1. Movement speed can be used to jump. If you have never jump dozens of feet up in the air with your Monk to stunning fist a caster from the skies (or to grapple him down), then you miss out. ALSO: not every enemy caster is based on flying, and not all encounters are faced on fighting a single target. Being able to dodge the enemies that prevent you from reaching a location is a huge utility.
2. Monk still has Ki Throw to potentially trip Tarrasques (spending ki to trip higher sizes), Vicious Stomp synergy, and access to the combat style feats that make tripping better.
3. What saves does Enervation allow? What saves does Hellfire Ray allow? What saves does Vampiric Touch allow? Touch spells DO NOT allow saves all the time. Barbs and Pallies get hit in the face fully by all the touch spells in the world, plus all the touch-based mechanics as well. If there are Gunslingers around, they are going to end the Barb and the Pally quick enough, while they probably only will hit the Monk on 75% of their rolls at best.
UnMonk bad Will save doesn't matter. It now has the feats and attribute points to patch it up. Again, numbers, son. I've ran them, UnMonk has a brilliant Will save.
4. SR forever is a trap. SR that you can activate at will as an swift action is not.
Lemmy |
Lemmy wrote:Want numbers or do you just want to complain?Secret Wizard wrote:Lemmy wrote:Secret Wizard wrote:Play a regular Unchained Monk then. Fixed and balanced.Arguably. It's better than the Core Monk, of course, but it's not exactly a great class...It's not arguable. It was arguable at some point.
I've made builds, ran the numbers. It's a perfectly good class. Power level hovers very close to Barbarian, closer to Paladin.
Everyone who says the Fighter is a great class says exactly the same about that class... So forgive me if I remain unconvinced.
I admit UC Monk is a decent beatstick... Not much more than that, though.
Fighters have perfectly good numbers too...
Honestly, to me, the people who complain about the UC Monk are the same people who whine about Precise Strike being removed for Magi or claim that Divine Protection is perfectly fine. They are the people who tack Fate's Favored onto every build. They miss the fact that there's some supposed balance.
You obviously haven't been paying attention, then.
Anyway, this is not the thread for this discussion. I'm leaving. Enjoy the thread. ;)
Gohaken |
Arachnofiend wrote:<<Paraphrasing Secret Wizard because Quote didn't include your text from reply>> ~SR always on is a trap, SR as a swift & inexpensive option is useful/good.~
4. Nothing to talk about here other than the fact that SR is practically the definition of a trap option.
Minor quibble here regarding SR, though I agree with pretty much everything else you said:
People say "its a trap" as if that's a fact. Actually it's an opinion.
Monks (old) don't get SR till 13th level. By then, we're dealing with high level play, e.g. Scry & Fry tactics, 15-minute adventuring days, maybe even the Wish economy.
Pre-buffing before combat is very doable as a standard strategy to mitigate the need for in combat buffing.
If you grab trait "Scorned by Magic" and the Bestiary feat to bump your SR, you have what SR = Class Level + 13 or so? That's a relevant "miss chance" for full casters, and even at Spell Perfection level 15+ with a not-stupid caster build this much SR will block a relevant number of all their spells and a smaller but not insignificant % of their perfected spells. In general -- obviously this changes against an uber-maxed Transmuter Disintegrate build or whatever.
I'd rather get some 'armor vs. spells' (50% or at least 25%) against the BBEwizard's Reach Persistent Planeshift (to the abyss) even if I miss out on a Blessing of Fervor or whatever 4 rounds into the fight.
And if I happen to be a Flowing Monk, I'm all about this. I want Volley Spell for Spell Turning. Even if it's always on.
Unchained Monk gets a safer deal with SR, and I believe can do a cheaper cost Volley Spell, but that doesn't mean old/archtype monks should never go this route.
My 10 cents.
-Goh
PS. Best SR deal I've seen (besides one of the "Story" feats that gives selective SR vs. Evil, and a similar Deific/Celestial Obedience Boon) is the Spellscar gunslinger. Always on so there in an ambush, like old Monk, but can drop it as swift for 1 grit.
EDIT: I think the Spellscar guy's SR is based on Character Level not Class level, so even better deal.