Craig Bonham 141 |
I've been informed that some of my arguments here and in the past come off as anti-3PP and for that I apologize. I am far from that. I'm a BIG fan of the third-party stuff and I want to see more. I have 142 purchased pdfs currently on my computer and a handful of the rare dead-tree options (All Hail Deep Magic).
So when I'm mouthing off about what I want from someone who is asking for my money it's coming from somone who has already handed over money, uses the materials in game, and wants to see MORE. I've purchased from Rite, Dreamscarred, Little Red Kobold, Lost Spheres the incarnations of Genius, Headless Hydra, Abandoned Arts and others. So I'm not a devotee of just one person/group's work.
I do not want to discourage and that is far from my intention. What I want is to communicate with those folks putting their goods on the marketplace and letting them know what this customer is looking for when I'm deciding where to spend my money.
gamer-printer |
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Sometimes your arguments, justifiably so, involves some 3PP not taking into account another similar work from a different 3PP, such that some mechanics seem to replace other already created 3PP mechanics. The problem here is, like yourself, we have limited funds, so the fact that you've purchased 142 PDFs from varying 3PP publishers. I can honestly say, that I haven't purchased anything near that number, more like a couple dozen at best. So without purchasing every 3PP product in existence, its likely that I may create something, that another publisher has expounded upon in their own product, that I may not be aware of. Its very unlikely that I would purchase every 3PP product out there, let alone have the time to read them all.
Right now I'm working on creating a setting and series of one-shot adventures for an alternate Old West setting, I call Gothic Western. Now I have purchased Little Red Goblin Games Heroes of the West, and even considering mentioning that product in the upcoming setting guide for Gothic Western, as all the included archetypes are viable for use in my setting, and I won't be replicating any of those archetypes, nor most of the concepts behind them - to avoid duplication. Also as a freelancer for Rite Publishing, whenever Rite Publishing releases a new product, I get a free copy, so those products like Secrets of the Gunslinger may be of use. However, there may be a half dozen (?) old west related products out there from other 3PP, that I'm not aware of, so duplication of concept may occur.
Your expectation that all PF 3PP, should be familiar with every other 3PP's mechanics, comparable archetypes, feats, spells, etc., so that duplication of content does not occur is an unrealistic one, even as much as us small 3PP try to avoid that from happening, there's no guarantee.
Craig Bonham 141 |
See, I do not expect all 3pp creators to know all other 3pp work. You are right, that would be unreasonable. But I do not think its unreasonable to expect a decent level of understanding of what is out there. Not all, but enough so that I, as your customer, can feel confident in giving you my money and believing your idea isn't just interesting but perhaps playtested against more than just paizo products.
Again, please remember the interesting place a third party publisher is in. You want your customer to step outside of paizo's realm and pay you money for your ideas. Excellent and I commend you all for adding to our hobby. But why should I adopt and dovetail your product into not just Paizos work but Rites and Dreamscarreds (big names that could hardly be considered requesting you to know ALL) if you aren't willing to do the same?
Owen KC Stephens |
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It's a tough call, and I think each 3pp has their own answer to it. Even when talking about just a few companies, it can be daunting quickly. Rogue Genius Games has 270 Pathfinder-compatible products just by ourselves. Rite Publishing has 252. To have read through the products of JUST those two companies would take going through 532 products, before even looking at Adventure-A-Week, Dreamscarred, Fat goblin, Frog God, Kobold Press, and Legendary Games.
I try to be "up" on what's out there in 3pp, but it's both not possible for me to even skim any reasonable percentage of what's out there, and just because someone has tackled an idea doesn't mean I won't think my version is better. :)
OTOH, thanks for buying my books, regardless if it was from Super Genius Games or Rogue Genius Games!
RJGrady |
I always try to do diligent research, but there are limits to time and space and money. And sometimes, I just have a very clear picture in my mind of what I want to do, and I actively avoid competing products in order to avoid diluting the concept I have in mind or to have to agonize over whether to OGL some material or write my own similar material.
There really isn't a golden rule as to whether it is better to build on other people's stuff or to offer an alternative. I think the best books are written by people who believe in what what they have developed.
RGG's Talented Monk and my own Monk Reborn took very approaches to "fixing" the monk's power level and lack of customization. Still, I probably wouldn't have started Monk Reborn if Talented Monk had already been announced when I started working on it. Both books appeared around the same time. Typically, I have a good idea what Owen and co. have been up to, but in this case, I was writing in a space mostly unoccupied by others ideas or products. The Talented Monk and Monk Reborn are almost entirely incompatible, except insofar as each covers some of the existing monk archetypes. And that's... fine by me. It's been a steady seller, even since the publication of the unchained monk.
In fact, I don't see any reason why a talented monk, a monk reborn, and a monk unchained couldn't adventure together.
But I would look at someone funny who decided to do yet another monk re-envisioning without familiarizing themselves with most or all of those versions. Yet, there is probably a conception of how to do the class that does not require any such familiarity. Perhaps if you have a sudden inspiration of how to adapt the spirit of the AD&D monk into Pathfinder using new and unique mechanics, reading other monks would just cause you to stray from your personal vision.
Dale McCoy Jr President, Jon Brazer Enterprises |
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I'll readily admit that I am not familiar with every other pathfinder compatible product out there. Having said that I do do research and encourage my authors to research what others have done on a similar topic.
For example,Book of Heroic Races: Advanced Samsarans comes out next month. Both myself and one of the principle authors on the book made sure to read Everyman Game's Samsarans book.
Gorbacz |
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Parallel design is nothing new. And I don't think it's a problem - if three companies decided to put out reinterpretation of 3.5 psionics, I wouldn't begrudge them for stepping one each other's toes, but be happy that there's more to choose from. Also I wouldn't expect them to hold their creativity back and wait until Paizo makes up their mind on that particular slice of design.
Alexander Augunas Contributor |
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I'll readily admit that I am not familiar with every other pathfinder compatible product out there. Having said that I do do research and encourage my authors to research what others have done on a similar topic.
For example,Book of Heroic Races: Advanced Samsarans comes out next month. Both myself and one of the principle authors on the book made sure to read Everyman Game's Samsarans book.
Aw, shucks! Thanks guys. :D
Dale McCoy Jr President, Jon Brazer Enterprises |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Aw, shucks! Thanks guys. :D
Besides the fact that we didn't want to avoid parallel design (which we did by taking the race in a different direction, which you can tell from our artwork), I also picked it up because I wanted to see your design first hand. Which you must say you is quite good. A fellow excellent East Coast designer.
Marc Radle |
All Hail Deep Magic.
Indeed!!! :)
I do not want to discourage and that is far from my intention. What I want is to communicate with those folks putting their goods on the marketplace and letting them know what this customer is looking for when I'm deciding where to spend my money.
I think there actually has been more communication and collaboration between Third Party companies as of late, particularly the big ones, which is certainly a good thing. If I had to hazard a guess, I think that trend will probably continue.
Russell Morrissey Publisher, EN Publishing |
Only speaking for my stuff, we just try to do the best job we can with our ZEITGEIST adventure path and TRAILseeker. I don't personally feel that competing interpretations of something are anything to be avoided - consumer choice is a great thing.
There's certainly something to be said for building on the OGC work of others, of course. Both are totally fine.
137ben |
Joking aside, the difficulty with using content from other sources is that every potential customer has different likes and dislikes.
For example, when I need firearm rules, I use the rules from 3.5 (DMG, but left out of the SRD). I really dislike Paizo's firearm rules.
Let's say you are writing a supplement which will require firearm rules. You could just make use of the guns in Ultimate Combat, but then you've turned off me and others who share my distaste.
On the other hand, you could develop your own rules which are incompatible with those in Ultimate Combat. I'd probably be more willing to purchase your supplement if you did it that way...
...but developing your own firearm rules would turn off people who are fans of Paizo's. You lose some people either way.
Obviously, Paizo is exception in that it has a lot of fans. But even in this special case, there are ups and downs both to using rules from another publisher and to ignoring them. When you shift to the question about using rules from a smaller company, the question becomes more difficult.
gamer-printer |
Let's say you are writing a supplement which will require firearm rules. You could just make use of the guns in Ultimate Combat, but then you've turned off me and others who share my distaste.
On the other hand, you could develop your own rules which are incompatible with those in Ultimate Combat. I'd probably be more willing to purchase your supplement if you did it that way...
...but developing your own firearm rules would turn off people who are fans of Paizo's. You lose some people either way.
Well in the case of my Gothic Western setting and one-shots, I'm using the Paizo advanced gun rules, guns everywhere, cartridge ammo, and just about every class gets an archetype that has some level of gun training, many getting a battered gun at 1st level like a gunslinger. While the gunslinger will still be the best at wielding a gun, he won't be alone - everybody, even the Natives have guns. Only a few archetypes won't get some kind of gun skills. With repeating rifles and revolvers, all the double barrel nonsense goes away.
Shadowborn |
As a writer, one of the things I tend to do is use the resources I have on hand. The first one I use in my writing is the PRD, so I get the proper mechanics, terminology, and OGL material in front of me while I work.
Then I hit d20pfsrd, specifically to search for any references to the subject matter from third party materials. That way I can avoid heading down roads that have been thoroughly explored by someone else and not repeat material that is already published.
For example, I had to scrap an archetype idea in a recent project, because the concept had already been done, and done well, in RGG's Monster Menagerie: The Construct Companion.
Malwing |
I have a LOT of pdfs and while idea overlap happens all the time, surprisingly I don't see it as often as one would expect. I think its partially due to some publishers and products being high profile enough where most people know what toes there are to step on. The only broad theme I see repeated a lot are handling themes of technology. I have two entire steampunk settings/books and a plethora of tech classes, some with repeating themes and mechanics. I also have a lot of products that focus on technological equipment or space/future/modern settings. This includes construct controllers and dragonriders are a recurring motif. Most other things I'll see a theme repeated once and never really see it again.